Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 30127 times)

1 Member and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3394
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2016, 10:23:21 pm »
Honestly, it's shit like this that almost makes me consider going alt right, if only to not be associated with a bunch of melodramatic manchildren.

...yes, if there's one thing no one's ever accused the alt right of, it's being a bunch of melodramatic manchildren
Σא

Offline Art Vandelay

  • Greatest Person to Ever Grace this Shitty Forum
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8785
  • Gender: Male
  • Check Your Privilege
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2016, 10:32:30 pm »
Art acts as if econmic malaise and racism is an either/or proposition. It isn't, in fact the flames of racism and other bigotry are fanned by economic problems.
I didn't say no Trump supporters were racist. My point is that racism was not the be all and end all of Trump's campaign, and the left assuming that it was is almost certainly why he won.
Honestly, it's shit like this that almost makes me consider going alt right, if only to not be associated with a bunch of melodramatic manchildren.
...yes, if there's one thing no one's ever accused the alt right of, it's being a bunch of melodramatic manchildren
Good point.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2016, 12:19:25 am »
Art acts as if econmic malaise and racism is an either/or proposition. It isn't, in fact the flames of racism and other bigotry are fanned by economic problems.
I didn't say no Trump supporters were racist. My point is that racism was not the be all and end all of Trump's campaign, and the left assuming that it was is almost certainly why he won.
Honestly, it's shit like this that almost makes me consider going alt right, if only to not be associated with a bunch of melodramatic manchildren.
...yes, if there's one thing no one's ever accused the alt right of, it's being a bunch of melodramatic manchildren
Good point.
Can we be clear who we are talking about when we say "the left"? Because I can certainly  see the Democratic hierarchy doing that but I thought we agreed in another thread they weren't really the "left". Identity politics supremos with weaponized offence would probably also be on board but surely if "left wing" has any coherent meaning it should cover an economic dimension.

A Democrat doner who thinks he's left wing because he has a gay butler, eco friendly light bulbs in his mansion and a Hispanic maid is no more left wing than Australia's own Malcolm Turnbull who recently rebuked Trump by singing the praises of "fair trade", which is to say, not in the slightest.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 12:23:04 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Art Vandelay

  • Greatest Person to Ever Grace this Shitty Forum
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8785
  • Gender: Male
  • Check Your Privilege
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2016, 12:41:50 am »
Can we be clear who we are talking about when we say "the left"? Because I can certainly  see the Democratic hierarchy doing that but I thought we agreed in another thread they weren't really the "left". Identity politics supremos with weaponized offence would probably also be on board but surely if "left wing" has any coherent meaning it should cover an economic dimension.

A Democrat doner who thinks he's left wing because he has a gay butler, eco friendly light bulbs in his mansion and a Hispanic maid is no more left wing than Australia's own Malcolm Turnbull who recently rebuked Trump by singing the praises of "fair trade", which is to say, not in the slightest.
I meant it as a catch-all term for pretty much everyone opposed to Trump. Obviously it's rather vague and nebulous, but that's generally what happens when you try to put basically every political ideology in the world into one of two categories. I guess we can call them something else, if you'd prefer.

Besides, it was far from Clinton's campaign that was conflating Trump supporters with racists. You'd be rather hard pressed to find any anti-Trump activists who didn't.

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3087
  • Gender: Male
  • SOCIAL JUSTICE!!1!1
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2016, 01:37:49 am »
As to my comments about them being incompetent degenerates, I don't feel the need to sugarcoat what I feel about these "people". They say they want change, and I say they don't deserve it. They dug this hole with repeatedly voting for people who do nothing but make sure they're miserable. There is no magic Trump can do to reopen those mines and factories. I say let them climb out of it themselves instead of burdening reasonable society.

I saw all I needed to of Trump Supporters - their "Trump that bitch" shirts and their flags and their horrific hairdos and below average intelligence and inability to tell when a joke is on them.

I would rather chat up a chimpanzee than ever have dialogue with the Trump Supporter.

As far as I am concerned, they've done well to earn me ignoring their problems - in fact, if I had the choice to, I'd make their problems worse.
I am offensively offensive. How Offensive!

Offline Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1267
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2016, 05:32:29 am »
As to my comments about them being incompetent degenerates, I don't feel the need to sugarcoat what I feel about these "people". They say they want change, and I say they don't deserve it. They dug this hole with repeatedly voting for people who do nothing but make sure they're miserable. There is no magic Trump can do to reopen those mines and factories. I say let them climb out of it themselves instead of burdening reasonable society.

I saw all I needed to of Trump Supporters - their "Trump that bitch" shirts and their flags and their horrific hairdos and below average intelligence and inability to tell when a joke is on them.

I would rather chat up a chimpanzee than ever have dialogue with the Trump Supporter.

As far as I am concerned, they've done well to earn me ignoring their problems - in fact, if I had the choice to, I'd make their problems worse.

And this is why you lost.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline SCarpelan

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2016, 05:42:25 am »
I see a large part of the Republican voters as victims. They live in a bubble where they are convinced that their best bet to improve their lives are the same people who keep screwing them over. Instead of fighting the cultural attitudes that feed ignorant racism in these people the Republican party and their other leaders work to maintain them. Having Democrats and minorities as scapegoats for their problems is an easier way to keep them in line than actually trying to help them.

The kind of racism that is bred by ignorance is a global phenomenon and a part of the human condition, it should be fought by fighting ignorance. This requires both an understanding attitude at their problems and attacking their leadership and the Republican party as an institution. This is not easy to do since the Republicans will do their best to turn any attack on those who deserve it to an attack on the whole group. A good example is how Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment was taken out of context. The mistake she made was apologizing for it - and implicitly admitting fault - instead of doubling down with a wording that isn't so easy to take out of context and make into a sound bite.

Then there is the other kind. The KKK types, neo-nazis and the worst of the alt-right crowd who are so hateful that they are just human scum. Even they aren't all lost cases but as a group the only useful strategical option is to fight them as hard as you can.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2016, 06:28:23 am »
I see a large part of the Republican voters as victims. They live in a bubble where they are convinced that their best bet to improve their lives are the same people who keep screwing them over. Instead of fighting the cultural attitudes that feed ignorant racism in these people the Republican party and their other leaders work to maintain them. Having Democrats and minorities as scapegoats for their problems is an easier way to keep them in line than actually trying to help them.

The kind of racism that is bred by ignorance is a global phenomenon and a part of the human condition, it should be fought by fighting ignorance. This requires both an understanding attitude at their problems and attacking their leadership and the Republican party as an institution. This is not easy to do since the Republicans will do their best to turn any attack on those who deserve it to an attack on the whole group. A good example is how Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment was taken out of context. The mistake she made was apologizing for it - and implicitly admitting fault - instead of doubling down with a wording that isn't so easy to take out of context and make into a sound bite.

Then there is the other kind. The KKK types, neo-nazis and the worst of the alt-right crowd who are so hateful that they are just human scum. Even they aren't all lost cases but as a group the only useful strategical option is to fight them as hard as you can.

The original "Basket of Deplorables" quote said much the same thing

Quote
...I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America."

But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

Given that about 9% of the US population voted at all one half of the Trump vote doesn't put Clinton's guess at the size the alt right at such a huge number-but you don't have to be a huge number to be influential.

The other problem is, of course, that neither Clinton nor Trump actually had a plan for the people who the economy let down in America-and why would they? They don't form part of the donor class that makes Washington's beltway run and they aren't part of either's favored inner circles.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 06:31:43 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3394
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2016, 09:32:10 am »
Given that about 9% of the US population voted at all one half of the Trump vote doesn't put Clinton's guess at the size the alt right at such a huge number-but you don't have to be a huge number to be influential.

About 131 million people voted, the population of the US is about 325 million. That's 40%, not 9%. Your source  is talking about the number of people who voted for either Trump or Hillary in the primaries.

(also, the alt-right, neo-nazis, the KKK, maybe add up to a few tens of thousands of people. Their votes don't win elections. It was the good old regular right that mattered.)
Σא

Offline SCarpelan

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2016, 10:09:41 am »
(also, the alt-right, neo-nazis, the KKK, maybe add up to a few tens of thousands of people. Their votes don't win elections. It was the good old regular right that mattered.)

When their voice is raised above the rest and legitimized it becomes a powerful political weapon. Their rhetoric uses the ignorant racism to pull the right as a whole closer to them and shapes and directs the largely legitimate anger of the white poor and working class people. Attacks against the extremists can be twisted into an attack against all the right wing voters and make the liberal elite, the minorities and the left wing in general a common enemy that is an existential threat to their identity.

Offline Lana Reverse

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Female
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2016, 10:43:10 am »
I think the Democrats made a big mistake when they decided to focus on identity politics over economic populism. There are so many Americans who are poorly off in this economy, Americans of all stripes. They could have used that fact to unite tens of millions of the disenfranchised in their favor. Instead, they decided to play the game of divide and conquer, and they lost. And now we're stuck with Trump for four years (assuming he serves out his term).

Nice job /s.
I also pissed in an old woman's sauce pan when I was a child. Have you?

Online RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7229
  • Gender: Male
  • Got the moves like Viktor.
    • My Twitter
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2016, 10:48:25 am »
Honestly kinda hoping he does.  As bad as Trump is, Pence is far, far worse.  Trump may be a buffoon, but Pence is downright dangerous.  Trump will take us back to 2004...Pence would take us back to the Stone Age.
Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman
If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.

Offline Murdin

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2016, 11:23:21 am »
I didn't say no Trump supporters were racist. My point is that racism was not the be all and end all of Trump's campaign, and the left assuming that it was is almost certainly why he won.

Even among "SJWs" (the smart ones, anyway), from what I've seen, the consensus is that Trump managed to harness the intense anti-establishment sentiment by running his entire campaign on "political incorrectness" and "going there". Most people are so misinformed and lacking in critical thinking skills that they interpreted Trump's constant signaling of his status as a political outsider (in both senses of the term) as a guarantee of his sincerity, his willingness to tear down a corrupt, out-of-touch establishment, and replace it with... well, I have no idea, and I think I'm already pushing my reflection further than most people are willing to.

Offline SCarpelan

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2016, 04:35:40 pm »
Hindsight is always 20/20 but it was a huge mistake for Clinton to go after the Republican women. They have been in an anti-Clinton propaganda and conspiracy theory bubble since 90's and she even more than Bill has become a symbol of all real and imagined that is evil to them in politics. A big part of her selling pitch in primaries was that her image has been stabilized but the campaign didn't realize how true that was in this context. Yes, there is an authoritarian and racist sentiment involved that responded to Trump and women can also support structural sexism but when you make the campaign about competing personalities you cannot ignore your own baggage in their eyes.

As for the economical perspective: statistically there is no real correlation between unemployment and voting Trump but when you look deeper you start to see a pattern. In areas where the job market is dominated by low wage service jobs or manufacturing jobs that are in danger of being moved abroad people voted for Trump.

People are generally very self-centered when they are going through difficult times and if they think someone cares about their problems they are willing to rationalize away things they that don't like and they would otherwise not tolerate. This is where things like institutional sexist and racist undertones come in: these people were willing to ignore Trump's flaws and take a chance that he could actually improve their lives as he promised. When Clinton crushed Trump's facade in the debates they started to see through him but she allowed people forget his weakness and get lured back to his con. She is not only a more capable leader but also a way stronger leader than Trump and she could have tried to build on his weak debate performance instead of taking attention away from it.

I would really like to see a test where people who defended Trump's sexism and racism were given anonymous offensive statements and asked to comment on them. Some of these would be Trump's less known statements and others taken from other loathsome people with a few of Trump's more recent and famous ones included. If the test could be performed so that the people were not aware of what was being tested the results might be interesting. My guess is that anything that they'd know is by Trump they'd defend but would not be as eager to defend things that they wouldn't connect to him.

I'll end with something that is based on hearsay from someone who claims to have been involved in statistical analysis for Clinton's campaign in his state so take it with as much salt as you want:

The statistical model they used gave union workers in his state a large score in loyalty to the Democratic party. A big reason was that they had reliably voted for Obama in the last two elections but there was also a data mining operation involved that mapped people's consuming habits etc. The campaign calculated that since the model said their vote was guaranteed any resources needed to court their vote would more productively be used to get more votes elsewhere. Of course, when it came to voting drives, these reliable voters needed to be activated. Guess who these people ended up voting in the end? The campaign gifted these votes to Trump on a platter.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2016, 06:37:05 pm »
There's a lot of chatter saying that the fears of the left are unfounded or that Trump is exaggerating, I'm not so sure. I don't think he'll build a wall or return the factories or the coalmines but post election his behavior hasn't really deviated much from his campaign persona. Thin skinned, bloviating, vengeful and chaotic. I'd recommend Autocracy:Rules for Survival. Trump may not be a Warcraft style God-Emperor yet, and he may not get there but it won't be for lack of trying.