Author Topic: No-Platforming  (Read 865 times)

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Even Then

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 02:19:22 am »
Are we talking "C issuing (threat of) tangible harm/consequences or actual harassment to A unless they forbid B from using their space" pressure or merely "C repeatedly and/or vehemently verbally requesting A to not let B use their space in a way that doesn't cross over into harassment" pressure? I've seen both get used as examples of "censorship" or "violation of free speech" (the latter by the same crowd that thinks SJWs are using game critique to force game developers to censor themselves). The latter, I think, wouldn't really violate free speech; it'd just be C using their free speech to inform A (and, on a wider scale, D, E, F etc.) of the way B uses their free speech and make a plea for them to exercise their free speech-related negative freedom, with little sanction on A's shoulders beyond displeasure from C should they refuse.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 02:21:54 am by Even Then »

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 11:19:05 am »
Are we talking "C issuing (threat of) tangible harm/consequences or actual harassment to A unless they forbid B from using their space" pressure or merely "C repeatedly and/or vehemently verbally requesting A to not let B use their space in a way that doesn't cross over into harassment" pressure? I've seen both get used as examples of "censorship" or "violation of free speech" (the latter by the same crowd that thinks SJWs are using game critique to force game developers to censor themselves). The latter, I think, wouldn't really violate free speech; it'd just be C using their free speech to inform A (and, on a wider scale, D, E, F etc.) of the way B uses their free speech and make a plea for them to exercise their free speech-related negative freedom, with little sanction on A's shoulders beyond displeasure from C should they refuse.

I'm talking about both, sort of.

I mean, C obviously has the right to tell A what they think. And sometimes as a consequence of that A will choose to deny B a platform, as they have every right to. And you can't really say it's a bad thing that C can convince A to change their mind, that's what freedom of speech is for.

But say C starts threatening social consequences (maybe C doesn't want to buy A's stuff, because they are now uncomfortable with A because A associated with B). Again, fully within their rights, you can't force C to spend their money the way you like. And A has a lot of customers beyond C, so this only hurts them a little.

And then suppose C starts a campaign to let D, E, F... know that A is a disgusting promoter of B's filth and the money they give A is in part used for helping B reach wider audiences. Now A really has to seriously consider dropping B, regardless of their opinion on B, because they are going to lose a bunch of money otherwise.

This is, I think, a bad outcome. And yet it's  hard to draw a sharp line saying 'no, you're not allowed to do this' that would prevent this problem without being a worse violation of C's rights. In some sense C did nothing I'd blame them for, but I can prefer they acted in another way, y'know.
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Even Then

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2017, 07:49:28 pm »
While 3) does get somewhat closer to violating some spirit of free speech, I personally don't think it really gets to the point of being a violation of it because, as you said, it's an application of C's free speech andit just gives D, E and F the same circumstances that C has in 2) through informing them of the circumstances with B and A. In intent, C might be trying to stop B from having this specific platform, but I feel that the spirit of free speech doesn't really entitle B to a platform to begin with, so at least in that this isn't a violation in the realm of concrete actions separated from intent. However, money is something that is required to survive pretty much globally and A's choice to exercise their free speech one way or another, depending on how successful the letter writing campaign is, is now influenced by whether or not they want to eat tomorrow, which taints the actual freedom of that choice... but any notable financial coercion would, in addition to C, be equally, if not more, on the shoulders of D, E, and F... but they're also free to express their free speech by not supporting a platform and the notion that they have to support A or be free speech hating authoritarian leftists is also a violation of the spirit of free speech...

...shit's complicated and concepts like this are wide. I don't even know if I have a coherent definition of the social concept of free speech as opposed to just vague feelings about it. But I guess that's also liberating, to be able to confidently say "I don't know" and own one's feelings of uncertainty as one's own as opposed to trying to force oneself to think on either side just to not feel the insecurity of mental emptiness?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 09:06:05 pm by Even Then »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2017, 08:39:14 pm »
Isn't exerting pressure by protesting, boycotting etc also speech?

It's a no brainer thar if Milo Yiannopolous can come to a university and assert that Trans people are evil and adults screwing middle  schoolers is awesome then yelling at him that he's human smegma is fair play.

I agree let him speak on student union facilities but let his critics in on that free and public ground to tell him what a repulsive shithead he is. If it's publicly owned let the public in, not just his fanboys.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 09:37:16 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Hofstadter's Tortoise

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2017, 01:20:15 am »
I say give everyone a platform.

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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2017, 09:25:25 am »
Isn't exerting pressure by protesting, boycotting etc also speech?

Well yes, that's the point. Everyone freely exerts their rights and as a result some people are not able to exert their rights, because of predictable consequences that harm them if they do. I don't have a good answer to this, just noting it's a thing.
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Offline Askold

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2017, 09:32:28 am »
Well, if you have elections, even if those are fair, you will often end up in a situation where the minority of the people can't have their views represented in the government because the views of the majority have more weight behind them.

This does not mean that the rights of some citizens have been taken away.
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Offline pyro

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2017, 04:10:48 pm »
murca: This is why Our Country isn't a democracy. In a democracy, the majority take rights away from the minority, the overcrowded cities opress the rural folks, and the ignorant ignore the experts.

pyro: If votes are such a crapshoot, then why does the government use it so much?

murca: Well... Every alternative is worse!

pyro: Indeed.
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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: No-Platforming
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2017, 07:12:07 am »
This is kind of related to this, but more internet focused than on-campus (so if people want maybe I can make a new topic or ask a mod to split this to a new topic) but I've been watching some videos (and reading some tweets) lately about Laci Green opening discussions with anti-feminist channels on youtube. I watched the original vid too.

I found the response disappointing, particularly from Steve "Delete all their channels instead" Shives, Kevin Logan, and Kat Blaque admonishing her like what she did is some kind of betrayal to the feminist cause.