Author Topic: Conversations with Sharon at home  (Read 2158 times)

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2017, 07:48:37 am »
Therein lies the problem with the whole "salvation by faith" idea: its a doctrine of pure laziness.  You don't have to actually do anything, as one can believe whilst sitting firmly on one's own ass.  Say some pretty words and "feel it in your heart," and boom, straight to eternity you go once the reaper gets around to you.  The guy who sat on his ass eating Cheetos until he died from a heart attack, covered in Cheeto dust, but was a believing Christian man is getting into eternal paradise, whereas a non-believer who spends a significant portion of his time and money feeding the homeless, volunteering at the children's oncology ward, and so on, is going straight to damnation.
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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2017, 12:29:54 pm »
"Salvation through faith alone" is the only way, given that all sins are equal, to not just doom everybody to being locked downstairs.

Either some sins aren't worthy of hell, or there are people who do not sin, or everybody is doomed to hell, or you're not going to hell even if you do deserve it. There aren't any other options given those two premises.

Offline Sharon_at_home

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2017, 12:45:15 pm »
I addressed the Saved by Grace you mentioned. It's really long, so I would have to leave the part about the non-believer with all those good works until another post. Can you please let me know if you want that to be explained specifically or if the basics of what I have said help you to not need that.
To POST OR NOT TO POST! that is the question!  ;D
Hi RavynousHunter! I agree with you on each thing you said, and I'm sure the others know I share this belief.
My religion is focused more on the Love of Jesus than some others, but we do follow what Jesus told us to do, so we behave as he did and wanted us to try to be like. Try because he knew our flesh would fail, and that is why he gave us the grace in the first place. The Grace he promised us is about forgiving our sins when we repent for them and try not to sin. For us, it isn't flat out grace for all sins, or for not doing 'anything' for forgiveness. Jesus told us and showed us examples of how he behaved towards the other people to encourage us to be like him - a reflection of his goodness - so it will show the world the love and good works we do, by reflecting what Jesus wanted us to be like, it is following his word and it was taught for a reason.
Jesus came to Minister to his people. The point of the believing in Salvation is to set up the rest of the belief he desires from each of us. We start off by believing that Jesus came to Earth as the only Begotten Son, to die for our sins. To 'make up' with God for bad behaviour in the past, more or less. But without repentance of our sins, after our initial belief in the crucifixion and it's reason for happening, it goes further by Jesus' teaching, that all our past sins will be forgiven in Grace and we are to try NOT to sin, and by recognizing our sins and repenting for them.
It's not for him, because he can see our hearts and determine whether there is any evil intent in why you are committing a sin. If there is none, but there is not a reason from love to do it, like a habit like smoking, it is still a sin.
When the scripture told us that love covers a multitude of sin, I figure that the people who were actually chosen by God, are already people who will have a lot of love to share, and would be less inclined to sin than many others. The Grace he shows them is by justifying their salvation by how much love is expressed in their lives, and as for the good works, they are both to please God, to show others the love we have as followers of Jesus, and to reflect what Jesus also came to tell everyone. That it is love that will create the kind of world where we all get along, and sin will not be likely when we all love each other because we do not want to hurt anyone we love.
Helping each other is a key thing in a loving functional society. Jesus was trying to help us be the people we were created to be, and the offer of Salvation is an attempt to bring people to see the reality of a world of peace. Jesus did however stress the repentance of sin, and I look at that as how he wants us to remember not to sin. It is a reality of the flesh that we sin, and with repentance, we will try not to sin (that sin) if we are reminded frequently, as you are supposed to ask the lord for forgiveness of sins and we need to recognize the sins we do by not taking everything we have done as just part of our lives, and looking at them to see if there is any offense to God in how we do things. Sins are not always obvious and need to be looked for and recognized.
I think what Jesus told us that is beyond the Salvation he has offered to all of us, there has to be a purpose in Salvation, or why did he minister to the people about the things he did. Like how to treat each other, which is a source of sinful behaviour. What Jesus came to say beyond the need to repent for sins, is wrapped up in the second commandment as well as the 'golden rule'. He told us to Love everyone and to treat everyone the way we want to be treated.
The bible actually tells us in scripture that we cannot be lazy about spreading the gospel.
Salvation is about believing in God sending his only begotten son <half God, half human> to die for our sins, to reconcile <make up> us to God along with the grace to forgive our sins, but even in the OT God wanted us to repent for our sins.
Ok so God always wanted his creation to love each other, and the repentance of sin is to show God that he is who we love and trust, so if what I am doing is a sin, and I love God, because we do not want to hurt the ones we love, we should ask for forgiveness for the sin that caused our Father to feel we did not love him as we said we would. Just as a child can feel so bad about behaving improperly that they cry and are inconsolable when they apologize for it. Heartfelt apology for doing something that could hurt someone else.
The main thing to remember is that God is omnipotent: he can do literally anything he wants to do; again, but, he is righteous and Just and he loves us all - he loved(s) us as sinners and showed that love by allowing himself (the human side) to know he was going to die and what for, and knowing how we would feel doing the same thing. Because he is part human and I don't see a lot of Jesus using his powers when he was on earth except to do the miracles that he did so the people would see them and believe that he has powers that are of God, and believe in the purpose of the crucifixion and learn about what it all about, including salvation by repentance of sin.
The Holy Baptism of Water, which a lot of religions do with babies, and we do only blessings for children, and baptize someone only if they are confident that they believe in Jesus. The water baptism is about repentance. When we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit to help us to recognize our sins, and encourage us to get beyond the temptations so we don't sin. It doesn't make you choose to not sin, it just sort of nudges you like that little angel on your right side that uses the wand (isn't it?) that tells us in the cartoons "Don't Do it!" while the evil side is dressed like what the devil is supposed to look  like, with a pitchfork to convince you that it is ok to sin, saying "Do it, it won't matter, go ahead!!' That is kind of a true look at your conscience fighting temptation of sin when you think about it.
So in my belief, God has offered us grace to forgive our sins, but he wants us to recognize and repent of our sins so we are trying not to sin at all. trying, because he knows we are flesh and will fail. but as long as you ask him to forgive you, you are sinless. He forgets what you did, and it will be removed from your "life book" altogether and won't be brought up again. ever.
Being reborn is accepting Jesus and being forgiven for all past sin, and having a new slate to begin anew.
We still have to learn what Jesus told us, and become the person that God created us to be. That is in the Gospel.
I always suggest that people read the gospel keeping in mind the love and see how often love is mentioned when Jesus talks about sin. When you read the Bible, you should pray for understanding and God will direct you to, and give you understanding of scriptures he knows will help you in your life, either right then, or in your future that it will come to mind when you need it.
I believe that Jesus would not exactly make it a condition for Salvation, as much as he was teaching us the behaviour that is needed to have a peaceful world: love. Think of it like this, He wants us to love and treat each other well. If you "believe" and leave it at that, without recognition of sin, or showing love to others at all, or even if you are showing hate, which is 'evil' and of the darkness, you are not showing the behaviour that Jesus wants so he will have peace for his children. How would someone like that every be considered by God as someone who thinks the Elect won't be judged at all? No, he would know what the person is like all through their lives. So the people who are truly the Elect is not just anyone, they are already known by God to be people who would be acceptable, and know the way they would deal with sin, and try hard to be without sin. Not people who think that the grace of salvation is as you describe the Cheetos man.
If heaven is going to be the place with no sin, the spirits of the people must be like Jesus and love each other and not sin against anyone. If someone hates even one person without forgiveness, they cannot guarantee their own salvation, it would be up to God to look at your heart and the love you have shown and decide if that hate in your heart will affect your spirit in heaven I guess, essentially.
 In our church services, we give Worship and Praise in song to the Lord our God. We give each week a scripture with its understanding given through the service. We have offerings from people who can afford to give. Tithes are a personal thing between you and God because many people cannot pay tithes and survive. Although we trust the Lord to provide, we also don't think it was intended as a continual thing when it comes to money, and realize that because he knows what our individuals circumstances are himself, and allows for whether it will be too much of a hardship for us. He is righteous and Just.
There is no doubt that God loves us and wants us all to come to be saved. But because there is evil in this world, he has to ensure that the spirits of people who he saves are not inherently evil. I think if there is any evil at all, we will not be saved. Even with repentance of sin, if your intentions about a sin is evil, as in it was done to hurt someone on purpose, and your repentance is not true if you harbor any evil in your soul. We have to be honest with ourselves as well as with God. We can't honestly ignore the fact that the reason you committed a sin was to 'get that person back' or to show the person you think he's a goof or anything else, if it was a malicious action that you don't repent for that evil intent, but just for the action and you keep it in your heart after repentance, it is like doing the sin, and not repenting. or doing it with the idea that it's ok to sin because we can always repent later. Somehow, I can't imagine forgiving anyone who sinned with repentance in mind when they did it.
So the Grace of Forgiveness of sin, is conditional after your first commitment to Jesus - is actually for the sins of the past, repented for at the baptism in our case, and the act of immersion represents Jesus being dead and buried, and the act of coming out of the water  is to represent his resurrection after his death. We are "dead" from sin, and are resurrected with Christ to try to live in a sinless life with repentance for the sins we commit when we ask for it.
Jesus never said, "hey you know you are saved. so Don't worry about it when you sin, not a problem you can do whatever you want (wink wink)  and I will forgive you."
Anyone who wants to have Eternal life - of Joy and happiness - without sorrow - as that is a promise and he will keep all of this (< = > 300 promises) to us.

God has never said that repentance is optional, and has made it very clear that recognition of sin, repentance of sin (which means you do not want to sin against God again, so you will make it a personal thing to try not to sin and by recognition of the sin, you are making / being aware of your actions and changing them to exclude sins you can avoid by making changes in your life. By saying you are sorry for the sin, and that you will try hard not to sin that sin again, God is saying that his grace will forgive you the sin when you are trying to stop doing it, and strive to not have sins in your actions, or your heart.
He has never said that we are allowed to sin. He has consistently said he wants us to repent of our sins. With the offer of Grace for sins, it is about past sin when you come to Jesus in faith that his mission on earth was true, and Trusting God to know what is best for us, as his creation, as someone Omnipotent who loves us completely, knowing God will never hurt us and will protect us, and provide things for us that we need. We have to recognize his love and know that it is a true love that will never end.
We can trust Jesus, We can have faith in his words. Because of the Love that he has always had for us that makes us love him back when we recognize his goodness, along with his love.
One evening service my Pastor set up a chance for members to make a song to share with the other members. There was total hesitation to be the first person, and I am the type of person that when I see people hesitate (about things they want to do, but do not want to be first, I volunteer to be first and break the ice for them to feel able to come up. I shocked my friend + Pastor because I am uncomfortable singing to the church, I can sing with everyone else, but a Capella (is that the right way to spell it?) is not something I like doing because I have hearing problems and feel they must affect my singing without music or accompaniment. Anyway, I chose to go first.
I worked for 2 weeks and finally I asked God for help with my song. I was able to use an instrumental piano song that is called "I love you Lord" that we had been singing with words similar but not the same as my own song, for the tune. I was actually given an unheard of before, Ovation by the whole church for my song. (Trying not to brag but want to make you recognize how much it says about how we feel about our God.)

"I love you, I love you, I'll love you Lord, always,
You'll forever care for me, and teach me all your ways,

To Praise you, and Worship you, and to always trust your word,
That's why I give my heart to you.

The Peace and Joy, and the Hope that are in my life,
These things you gave to me, the day you set me free.

To Praise you, and Worship you, and to always trust your word,
that's why I give my heart to you.... that's why I gave my heart to you.


These are the things in my life that make me happier to follow him. I have had experience with the Peace he offers. I have had experience with the Joy he offered. It was different that the way I felt about Peace and Joy before I was faithful. It was almost like it was a blanket that covers me and when it's done covering me, I feel Peace like no other time.

So believe that any good works still makes our God happy, and it is something that should be done for others whether it is to "earn" something or not, shouldn't it?
He said his Yoke was easy and it is true. If you are basically an honest and caring person it really isn't a big deal to make the small changes to your life that he asks of us. It's helping us become the people that God had wanted when he created us, but he gave us free will, and some people chose to not believe in him. That is why he wants people to repent and show their sorrow about their sins, and try not to sin. We don't just ask for forgiveness and forget about it, we have to be sorry - truly sorry for committing a sin against God's Word, because that is how loving someone and hurting them feels, horrible.

In a way, one could think that God is asking his creation to help 'fix' the problems (with his creation) that would create a world of his creation's spirits without sin. with tons of love. A wonderful world that will Eternally be a happy joyful place.
I used to look at it, that if it being good that the Lord wants, and it will help me attain Eternal life, whether it is true or not, it is better than the idea of death is just the end, and it isn't asking us to be evil, but good people. To make our world better.

Wouldn't it be worth the trouble of not sinning and being good to other people to find Eternal life after death instead of nothingness? Telling us about Hell is as a deterrent for us to not be sinners, but it is thought of by some as a threat to "make you behave". Others don't want to think about Eternal tormenting and just refuse to believe it, so they are not afraid of it being a reality. Belief that God exists and therefore Hell exists admits the reality of it; by not admitting it they can feel good when they sin against another person, instead of forgiving them and treating them with love and caring. Forgiving others is not always an easy thing and having the support to help you forgive someone makes it a lot easier. Encouragement is a big thing within the faith.
He would not have bothered making sure the NT has everything it does, if we are Saved by Grace and do not need to worry about how we behave? Why not just push the sin, and the punishment of sin and that we had better love him OR ELSE!! instead of trying to give us the world that we would be happier in.
Wow, this is a major ramble!! But honestly, you have given me the chance to explain a lot about my personal and my church beliefs and I like to be able to share of our view of the bible that is viewed differently than others. So I very much appreciate your post.
God blessings!

The Word of God is Truth; if it is not in the Word of God, it is not Truth.
The Gospel is the instructions to be a better Christian and to become more like Christ. This will show our good works, and show a light that will give Glory to God.

Walk daily with the Lord and learn his ways.

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2017, 01:54:16 pm »
Lemme see if I can suss out the TL;DR of it...basically, good acts are used as a method of counter-balancing sin?  That's about what I was taught as a Witness when I was a kid.  Basically, everybody sins, but most transgressions are fairly minor and you can compensate for them by doing good in your daily life.  Bigger sins need bigger compensation, but there are some for which there is no adequate recompense, eg murder.
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Offline Jocasta

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2017, 02:45:37 pm »
Since I've been able to draw breath I have had issues with the whole "salvation by faith alone" thing.  It basically means that you could have an Adolf Hitler type creature who wipes out millions of people and then has a deathbed conversion and the slate is magically wiped clean and he goes to heaven.  There's a whole lot of NOPE going on there for me personally.

Then again, I was raised Catholic, and for them it's faith PLUS works (and works I don't think are the kinds that Bob suggested, i.e. proselytizing or confronting) but GOOD works, i.e. deeds, acts of charity, etc.

The Catholics I think are closer to the mark on this one, personally.  Not that I don't have issues with them as well.
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Offline Bob J.

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2017, 03:51:07 pm »
Lemme see if I can suss out the TL;DR of it...basically, good acts are used as a method of counter-balancing sin? 

And from Jocasta
Quote
Then again, I was raised Catholic

This view has been explained by Father Guido Sarducci at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7ykYHwG5i4


You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi

pyro

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2017, 04:00:20 pm »
I think the other reason for "salvation by faith alone" doctrine is that you really do need to provide everyone a way out. As "The Art of War" puts it:  “When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.”

Frankly, if I was going to blame one problem for the fracturing of the church, it's that they've forgotten that principle. Instead of the hybridization and centralization that made the middle ages so successful, they'd rather run on ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK mode and slaughter their enemies instead of having them surrender.

Offline Bob J.

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2017, 05:43:14 pm »
It's not for him, because he can see our hearts and determine whether there is any evil intent in why you are committing a sin.

So would this mean that General Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who ordered the bombing of Dresden killing thousands of Christian non-combatants, did so without evil while Hitler’s killing of the Jewish “Christ Killers” was evil?

Quote
it just sort of nudges you like that little angel on your right side that uses the wand (isn't it?) that tells us in the cartoons "Don't Do it!" while the evil side is dressed like what the devil is supposed to look  like, with a pitchfork to convince you that it is ok to sin, saying "Do it, it won't matter, go ahead!!'

“Right side” and this is a continuing remnant of that old sin that left-hand people are of the devil. And in days of old would be put to death for their own Salvation.


Quote
But because there is evil in this world, he has to ensure that the spirits of people who he saves are not inherently evil. I think if there is any evil at all, we will not be saved. Even with repentance of sin, if your intentions about a sin is evil, as in it was done to hurt someone on purpose, and your repentance is not true if you harbor any evil in your soul.

So in the spirt of those long discussions I had back while learning my Catechism, what of the Confederate soldier who died on the battlefield after killing fellow American Union troops? Is he in hell?  He certainly killed with “to hurt someone on purpose". He did not have a chance to repent kill other humans. Is killing an enemy somehow okay? Does it depend on the “justice-ness” of the war? In which case do we need to know if owning slaves is biblical and just? Much biblical writing of the time (1860s) supported the South. Does that mean that the Northern Cause was that of Satan? And Satan won?

The devil, as they say, is in the details.
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2017, 07:40:40 pm »
I think the other reason for "salvation by faith alone" doctrine is that you really do need to provide everyone a way out. As "The Art of War" puts it:  “When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.”

Frankly, if I was going to blame one problem for the fracturing of the church, it's that they've forgotten that principle. Instead of the hybridization and centralization that made the middle ages so successful, they'd rather run on ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK mode and slaughter their enemies instead of having them surrender.

That, or surround them, then set em on fire.  At least, that's what Dynasty Warriors taught me.
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Offline CrowFood

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2017, 08:44:25 pm »
I mean...

Sola fide as a doctrine mostly exists because of the Lutheran tenant that all sins are equal before God, the doctrine of Total Depravity, IIRC. As a result, only grace can save you, and one is justified by faith. Part of the issue is how the word has changed. Faith, in modern context, is belief. However, faith in the Middle Ages would be something more akin to "loyalty" or "dedication." Hence, "keeping faith" was "staying loyal and true" and being unfaithful is akin to betrayal.

Nowadays, it's a "get out of hell free" card. But even cursory examination of doctrines shows this isn't the case outside of a few radical denominations. Also, several passages counter it, so...*shrug*

Offline Bob J.

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2017, 02:44:34 am »

If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.



I would have bet the quote came from Tyrion Lannister.
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2017, 10:22:57 am »

If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.



I would have bet the quote came from Tyrion Lannister.

Ha!  It'd work from either of em, but I heard it from Attack on Titan.  Kinda my attitude towards life, for better or worse.
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If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.

Offline Bob J.

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2017, 01:19:27 pm »
Sharon wrote:
Quote
There is a video out there about a study done with 6 professional photographers, who each photographed, unknowingly, the same man, but was told that the man was different people

Do you have a link  for that video? I would love to see it.

Thanks
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi

Offline Sharon_at_home

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2017, 08:05:14 pm »
Here's the link Bob. It's incredibly good at what it is saying.

http://educateinspirechange.org/alternative-news/six-photographers-took-the-same-mans-picture-you-need-to-see-what-they-captured/

So now I have had 9 posts I had that was in the  Disney Preschooler Animation ‘Doc McStuffins’ Features Family With ‘Two Moms’ thread,

Geeze I'd like to know how to get them to tell me their reasons. But of course I know what it is. I was arguing for the gays, and not against them.

I will not give up!!!!!!!!!
after tomorrow. lol I'm off until morning and then until after church.
God bless and Have a good night/day!
The Word of God is Truth; if it is not in the Word of God, it is not Truth.
The Gospel is the instructions to be a better Christian and to become more like Christ. This will show our good works, and show a light that will give Glory to God.

Walk daily with the Lord and learn his ways.

             We walk by faith, and not by sight.

Offline Sharon_at_home

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Re: Conversations with Sharon at home
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2017, 06:21:41 pm »
"Salvation through faith alone" is the only way, given that all sins are equal, to not just doom everybody to being locked downstairs.
Either some sins aren't worthy of hell, or there are people who do not sin, or everybody is doomed to hell, or you're not going to hell even if you do deserve it. There aren't any other options given those two premises.

I understand from the scriptures that Jesus put love above sin by telling us that love covers a multitude of sin.
So when you consider that Jesus will judge with Righteousness and He is Just, I expect only the very evil people are big on the list of the damned, but when I look at both the OT and NT the ones that refused God, were damned, but then Jesus said that some will be justified by the love in their hearts which covers the darkness of evil.
Evil is the one thing God will not tolerate in Heaven. 
I'm not sure that that would cover their refusal or not, that has to be up to Jesus and I guess that person's Book of Life section?
As the final commandment is love each other as yourself, do you think sin will take precedence over Love? 
The Gospel is full of Jesus' love, and while he ministered to the Apostles and disciples and any reader of the bible, he kept talking about love, even when he was talking about sin, he spoke of love.
I can't imagine Jesus accepting evil into Heaven, and the various things that we don't understand, like good people who never heard the gospel, we have to trust Jesus to take care of them. He would never want to send someone good to hell, not without a big reason.
I look at the Beatitudes when I wonder about the people who seem like they would be able to be saved, but don't follow Jesus. There are places that Jesus will have for anyone who does not go to Hell. He loves us, he wants us all to come to salvation so we can have a world based on love of each other.
But he does not want evil because evil means people will sin against each other. That is why he looks in our heart. Anyone with evil will not make it to heaven.
The Word of God is Truth; if it is not in the Word of God, it is not Truth.
The Gospel is the instructions to be a better Christian and to become more like Christ. This will show our good works, and show a light that will give Glory to God.

Walk daily with the Lord and learn his ways.

             We walk by faith, and not by sight.