Author Topic: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens  (Read 1038 times)

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pyro

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2017, 12:47:15 pm »
Honestly, the only difference between de facto requirements and de jur requirements is that the latter get more thoroughly discussed.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2017, 10:21:45 pm »
Did you know you can't become a senator in Canada unless you are at least 30 years old? Shameful.

Did you know you can't become a senator in Argentina unless you are at least 30 years old? Shameful.

In all seriousness, I understand why the requirement was there initially, but I don't think it really needs to be there any more. I'd rather see something like requiring a graduate degree (or similar professional certification), with either that degree or an undergraduate degree from a Canadian university (but then I'm biased).

EDIT: And an age requirement is something that, barring unfortunate events, everybody will eventually attain; being natural-born (President of Argentina) is not; holding no other citizenships (Australian Parliament) is something that some people can't help (it's very hard to get rid of some countries' citizenships--I'm looking at you, USA).

EDIT #2: There are also property and net worth requirements for the Senate, but (excepting a technicality relating to Quebec) Parliament can do away with those by a simple majority vote should it wish to.


Many things about the argentinian political system are shameful, this is not in dispute.

I just think it's silly to claim any requirement to hold elected office, which ~every country has including yours, means someone is a second-class citizen.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 10:27:46 pm »
Did you know you can't become a senator in Canada unless you are at least 30 years old? Shameful.

Did you know you can't become a senator in Argentina unless you are at least 30 years old? Shameful.

In all seriousness, I understand why the requirement was there initially, but I don't think it really needs to be there any more. I'd rather see something like requiring a graduate degree (or similar professional certification), with either that degree or an undergraduate degree from a Canadian university (but then I'm biased).

EDIT: And an age requirement is something that, barring unfortunate events, everybody will eventually attain; being natural-born (President of Argentina) is not; holding no other citizenships (Australian Parliament) is something that some people can't help (it's very hard to get rid of some countries' citizenships--I'm looking at you, USA).

EDIT #2: There are also property and net worth requirements for the Senate, but (excepting a technicality relating to Quebec) Parliament can do away with those by a simple majority vote should it wish to.


Many things about the argentinian political system are shameful, this is not in dispute.

I just think it's silly to claim any requirement to hold elected office, which ~every country has including yours, means someone is a second-class citizen.

Senators are not elected; they are appointed.

And when some citizens have rights or privileges other citizens cannot attain (or not without great difficulty), or some are subject to certain duties or responsibilities others are not, then I do consider there to be multiple classes of citizenship.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Offline The_Queen

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2017, 07:19:32 am »
You mean senators aren't even voted on in your country?!? Oh my god, no wonder we're having this discussion, your banana republic, poutine-exporting country simply does not understand how democracy works.

Australians are hereby declared date-worthy, and my love embargo is hereby place on Canada. Sorry Bobby Roode, congratulations Chris Hemsworth.
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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2017, 11:05:58 am »
......I was about to change my avatar to the Glorious One and now I've gotta go with Thor?

Ironbite-fuck you woman.

Offline dpareja

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2017, 03:00:53 pm »
You mean senators aren't even voted on in your country?!?

I have long been convinced that the more apparent democracy a country has, the less actual democracy it has.

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There would be no use of an Upper House, if it did not exercise, when it thought proper, the right of opposing or amending or postponing the legislation of the Lower House. It would be of no value whatever were it a mere chamber for registering the decrees of the Lower House. It must be an independent House, having free action of its own, for it is only valuable as being a regulating body, calmly considering the legislation initiated by the popular branch and preventing any hasty or ill considered legislation which may come from that body, but it will never set itself in opposition against the deliberate and understood wishes of the people.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Quote
Be weird, cause normal is boring.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2017, 08:33:27 pm »
Senators are not elected; they are appointed.
My mistake, sorry.

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And when some citizens have rights or privileges other citizens cannot attain (or not without great difficulty), or some are subject to certain duties or responsibilities others are not, then I do consider there to be multiple classes of citizenship.

I think this is broad enough to dilute 'multiple classes of citizenship' to uselessness. E.g. the entire existence of legislators means some people get to make laws, a rather important privilege, while others do not. And there is indeed great difficulty in becoming a legislator.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2017, 02:08:05 am »
Quote
And when some citizens have rights or privileges other citizens cannot attain (or not without great difficulty), or some are subject to certain duties or responsibilities others are not, then I do consider there to be multiple classes of citizenship.

I think this is broad enough to dilute 'multiple classes of citizenship' to uselessness. E.g. the entire existence of legislators means some people get to make laws, a rather important privilege, while others do not. And there is indeed great difficulty in becoming a legislator.

I should clarify, then; what I mean is that these things are true through no fault of their own. Someone can't help if they're born with multiple citizenships (and even if they try to get rid of them, the country in question might refuse the application), for instance, or that they're not a natural-born citizen. But if you run for office and fail to be elected, then some of the blame does fall on you.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Quote
Be weird, cause normal is boring.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2017, 06:18:33 pm »
Fair enough.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2017, 10:30:36 am »
......I was about to change my avatar to the Glorious One [...]

...Art?
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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2017, 10:31:55 am »
......I was about to change my avatar to the Glorious One [...]

...Art?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7oMBq1vkCM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7oMBq1vkCM</a>

This guy, that is his wrestling entrance. But alas, he's Canadian.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2017, 10:33:35 am »
So, neither Art nor my penis?  Such a shame.
Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman
If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.

Offline dpareja

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2017, 02:26:47 am »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/australia-dual-citizenship-1.4374578

And the issue's rearing its ugly head again.

Quote
Australia's High Court on Friday disqualified the deputy prime minister and four senators from sitting in Parliament in a ruling that could cost the government its slender majority in Parliament.

The decision to disqualify deputy prime minister Barnaby Joyce over a 116-year-old constitutional ban on dual citizens sitting in Parliament means a byelection will be held for his rural electoral district in December.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's conservative coalition has a single-seat majority in the 150-seat House of Representatives where parties form governments.

Joyce will be able to stand for re-election, having renounced the New Zealand citizenship he unknowingly inherited from his father. With the government trailing the opposition Labor Party in opinion polls, voters could use the byelection to toss both Joyce and his government out of office.

(emphasis mine)

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The government had argued that only Ludlam and Malcolm Roberts, a senator in the minor One Nation party, should be expelled because they had failed to take reasonable steps to ensure that they only held Australian citizenship.

Solicitor-General Stephen Donaghue had told the High Court judges that the other five should not be disqualified from Parliament for breaching the constitution because they did not voluntarily acquire or retain citizenship of another country.

A clause in the constitution says "a subject or citizen of a foreign power" is not eligible to be elected to Parliament.

Donaghue, however, argued that the clause "cannot be read literally."

"If a person is not aware either that they are a dual citizen or of a significant prospect that they are, in our submission by definition that person cannot have a split allegiance," he told the court.

Bret Walker, a lawyer for Joyce and Nash, told the court that neither knew until recently that they were dual citizens of New Zealand and Britain, respectively.

As soon as they found out, they took all reasonable steps required to sever their foreign ties, Walker said.

"There's no split allegiance where you're not aware of one," Walker told the court. "You cannot heed a call you cannot hear."

EDIT:

Quote
The constitution bans dual nationals from Parliament, a prohibition that critics have condemned as outdated in a country where almost half the people are immigrants or have an overseas-born parent.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Quote
Be weird, cause normal is boring.

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2017, 10:34:05 am »
Hey if you're not a pureblooded highwayman, cold blooded killer, pickpocket, or bank teller, Australia doesn't want you making decisions for the country.

Ironbite-and that's the way it should be.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: I didn't know Australia had second-class citizens
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 08:17:41 am »
Hey, the government fucking about with the citizenship ruling caused the courts to take a hard line on it and now they've lost their majority in the upper house. Well done kids!