Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 17275 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2018, 07:25:39 pm »
Oh hey look Jacob has nothing to say about child sex abuse in the SSPX.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2018, 08:23:57 pm »
The SSPX is not a true traditionalist Catholic Society because they violated Catholic doctrine in 1988. “By 1987, Archbishop Lefebvre was 81. At that point, if Lefebvre had died, the SSPX would have become dependent upon non-SSPX bishops to ordain future priests – and Lefebvre did not regard them as properly reliable and orthodox. In June 1987, Lefebvre announced his intention to consecrate a successor to the episcopacy. He implied that he intended to do this with or without the approval of the Holy See.[25] Under canons 1013 and 1382 of the Catholic Code of Canon Law, the consecration of a bishop requires papal approval. Consecration of bishops without papal approval had been condemned by Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Ad Apostolorum principis, which described the sacramental activity of bishops who had been consecrated without such approval as "gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious".[26] The Roman authorities were unhappy with Lefebvre's plan, but they began discussions with him and the SSPX which led to the signing on 5 May 1988, of a skeleton agreement between Lefebvre and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the future Pope Benedict XVI.

On Pope John Paul II's instructions, Cardinal Ratzinger replied to Lefebvre on 30 May, insisting on observance of the agreement of 5 May and adding that, if Lefebvre carried out unauthorized consecrations on 30 June, the promised authorization for the ordination to the episcopacy would not be granted.

On 3 June, Lefebvre wrote from International Seminary of Saint Pius X, stating that he intended to proceed. On 9 June, the Pope replied with a personal letter, appealing to him not to proceed with a design that "would be seen as nothing other than a schismatic act, the theological and canonical consequences of which are known to you". Lefebvre did not reply and the letter was made public on 16 June. For the first time the Holy See stated publicly that Lefebvre was in danger of being excommunicated.

On 30 June 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre proceeded to ordain to the episcopate four priests of the SSPX. Monsignor Antônio de Castro Mayer, the retired Bishop of Campos dos Goytacazes, Brazil, assisted in the ceremony. Those consecrated as Bishops were: Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Alfonso de Galarreta, and Richard Williamson.

The following day, the Congregation for Bishops issued a decree declaring that Archbishop Lefebvre and the four newly ordained bishops had incurred the automatic canonical penalty of excommunication reserved to the Holy See.[27] On the following day, 2 July, Pope John Paul II issued an apostolic letter known as Ecclesia Dei in which he condemned the Archbishop's action.[28] The Pope stated that, since schism is defined in the Code of Canon Law as "withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (canon 751),[29] the consecration "constitute[d] a schismatic act", and that, by virtue of canon 1382 of the Code,[30] it entailed ipso facto excommunication for all the bishops involved.”

There are other traditionalist Catholic groups including the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter than split from the SSPX over the issue.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2018, 10:11:35 pm »
Gotta keep moving those goalposts!

(And some of the accusations apparently date to before 1987.)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2018, 01:28:06 am »
Marcel Lefebvre violated Catholic doctrine by doing the same thing Jacob's doing, defying Vatican II. So Jacob tells us that:


Vatican II is heresy.


Padres kicked out of the RCC for violating Vatican II are heretics because they defy the Holy See.


Heretics, heretics everywhere. Heretics, heretics even in my underwear.


Perfectly normal. Stark raving normal!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 01:32:05 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2018, 01:53:49 am »
Apparently, there are no true Catholics.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2018, 01:58:55 am »
Crusader Kings 2 has taught me that true Catholics can't sail on rivers.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2018, 07:26:22 am »
Marcel Lefebvre violated Catholic doctrine by doing the same thing Jacob's doing, defying Vatican II. So Jacob tells us that:


Vatican II is heresy.


Padres kicked out of the RCC for violating Vatican II are heretics because they defy the Holy See.


Heretics, heretics everywhere. Heretics, heretics even in my underwear.


Perfectly normal. Stark raving normal!

His heresy was not defying Vatican 2, his heresy was consecrating his successor without the approval of the Holy See which is violation of Catholic Doctrine

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2018, 07:29:14 am »
Marcel Lefebvre violated Catholic doctrine by doing the same thing Jacob's doing, defying Vatican II. So Jacob tells us that:


Vatican II is heresy.


Padres kicked out of the RCC for violating Vatican II are heretics because they defy the Holy See.


Heretics, heretics everywhere. Heretics, heretics even in my underwear.


Perfectly normal. Stark raving normal!

His heresy was not defying Vatican 2, his heresy was consecrating his successor without the approval of the Holy See which is violation of Catholic Doctrine
The Holy See already told him to fuck off for doing what you promote, why the flaming fuck would they approve of his successor?

"Hey Vatican, guize-can you give your stamp of approval on our breakaway sect that broke away because Vatican 2?" Still comes back to V2 don't it?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 07:31:48 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2018, 07:34:58 am »
Marcel Lefebvre violated Catholic doctrine by doing the same thing Jacob's doing, defying Vatican II. So Jacob tells us that:


Vatican II is heresy.


Padres kicked out of the RCC for violating Vatican II are heretics because they defy the Holy See.


Heretics, heretics everywhere. Heretics, heretics even in my underwear.


Perfectly normal. Stark raving normal!

His heresy was not defying Vatican 2, his heresy was consecrating his successor without the approval of the Holy See which is violation of Catholic Doctrine
The Holy See already told him to fuck off for doing what you promote, why the flaming fuck would they approve of his successor?

Well they do permit some Churches to practice traditional mass. Regardless of whether they would approve of his successor, he committed heresy by consecrating his successor without their approval.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2018, 07:39:05 am »
Marcel Lefebvre violated Catholic doctrine by doing the same thing Jacob's doing, defying Vatican II. So Jacob tells us that:


Vatican II is heresy.


Padres kicked out of the RCC for violating Vatican II are heretics because they defy the Holy See.


Heretics, heretics everywhere. Heretics, heretics even in my underwear.


Perfectly normal. Stark raving normal!

His heresy was not defying Vatican 2, his heresy was consecrating his successor without the approval of the Holy See which is violation of Catholic Doctrine
The Holy See already told him to fuck off for doing what you promote, why the flaming fuck would they approve of his successor?

Well they do permit some Churches to practice traditional mass. Regardless of whether they would approve of his successor, he committed heresy by consecrating his successor without their approval.
It's a breakaway sect, of course they aren't going to get approval.

It'd be as dumb as the Anglican church asking for Vatican approval, or any of the Protestant denominations.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2018, 08:42:57 am »
Well there are other traditionalist Catholic Churches that are in good standing with the Holy See.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholicism

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2018, 05:57:21 pm »
So if they popped off to the Copts or the Orthodox they would have fit the standard of your ever shifting goalposts?

Moved only so you wouldn't have to admit that a sect created specifically to defy V2 was just as corrupt and liable to shield kid-rapers as their parent organization, the RCC!

Any converts yet Jacob? Tick tock.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:58:08 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2018, 01:51:21 am »
https://medium.com/humanist-voices/a-compendium-of-crimes-and-criminals-of-the-eastern-orthodox-church-part-4-272013d88bd

Part four of an article series on sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox Churches.

EDIT: The issue, as a devoutly Catholic acquaintance of mine maintains--and you can be assured that he's utterly livid about the sex abuse scandal, as he's called for Bergoglio to resign over his remarks on the Chilean victims, and at least claims that after the scandal involving the former archbishop of Washington, DC recently came out, he was talking to his bishop (in Minneapolis-St. Paul; I imagine the two bishops knew each other at some point) about whether his bishop knew anything--is that it's not doctrinal laxity, it's clericalism. (He's also said George Pell should be publicly hanged in St. Peter's Square, and thinks that the evacuation of Bernard Law to Italy was a gross miscarriage of justice.)

I don't agree with his proposed solutions--I don't think they'd fix the problem, at the very least--but at least he's honest in acknowledging what the problem is and doesn't go about constantly moving the goalposts and claiming that certain things don't count.

EDIT #2: He was, however, pleasantly surprised to see the recently-appointed bishop of Boise's reaction to the revelation that a retired priest there had a trove of child pornography and had talked in chat rooms about wanting to rape and kill children (he's standing trial on the child porn and some drug charges, the latter of which I couldn't give two shits about, while the former charge is 21 counts of felony sexual exploitation of a child): the bishop in question (who had apparently been in Minneapolis-St. Paul when that diocese's abuse scandal blew up some years ago) promptly kicked the priest out of his Church-subsidized housing and refused to use any diocesan funds for further support for him, whether in getting him new housing or in contributing toward whatever bond might be set for bail.

There are good clergy. But there are also some very evil clergy, and a network of others who cover up for them.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:41:30 pm by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.