FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: dpareja on April 30, 2015, 11:40:09 pm
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Yeah, not making this up.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CD2V5KpWoAAbZXQ.jpg:large)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/french-teen-s-skirt-deemed-too-long-for-her-to-attend-school-1.3055606
Basically, she was told that her skirt was considered a religious symbol and so she couldn't wear it in school. She already has to (and does) remove her headscarf.
Cue everyone pointing out how dumb this is.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
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"Sorry lady, but you skirt isn't slutty enough. It's short skirts or nuthin"
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What the fuck France? Just...what the fuck?
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Leave it to France to complain that a student's dress isn't revealing enough. I know that's not the reason, but come on; the other reason is retarded, this one makes it more amusing.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the sinagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street? regarding the skirt, it is stupid, seeing how that's the length of one of my own skirts and i don't want anyone banning my wearing of it. UP, consider it cultural shock if you will, but in france, religious garb of any kind is simply not as tolerated as in the usa.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the sinagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street?
Actual question, don't you have Jewish guys dressing like this in France?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01826/haredi-men_1826929c.jpg)
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the sinagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street?
Actual question, don't you have Jewish guys dressing like this in France?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01826/haredi-men_1826929c.jpg)
That attire isn't specifically tied to any one religion, though. It's identified strongly with various sects of Judaism, but it's not exclusive to those.
They probably still couldn't get away with wearing it in a public school, though.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the synagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street? regarding the skirt, it is stupid, seeing how that's the length of one of my own skirts and i don't want anyone banning my wearing of it. UP, consider it cultural shock if you will, but in france, religious garb of any kind is simply not as tolerated as in the usa.
So, I take it you've never heard of Rabbis wearing a kippah out in public? Or a Tallit?
EDIT: Your argument against religious garb could be pointed at almost any fashion. People wear baseball caps backwards, and many hats have no functional use. Should those be banned as well?
On another note more towards dpareja, there are Sikhs and Hindis here in Wichita that wear head scarves, so it isn't really a specific religious garb as much as it is a cultural thing.
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On another note more towards dpareja, there are Sikhs and Hindis here in Wichita that wear head scarves, so it isn't really a specific religious garb as much as it is a cultural thing.
Interesting. I didn't know that.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the sinagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street? regarding the skirt, it is stupid, seeing how that's the length of one of my own skirts and i don't want anyone banning my wearing of it. UP, consider it cultural shock if you will, but in france, religious garb of any kind is simply not as tolerated as in the usa.
Well that's kinda...bigoted of you. But then again you're French so I can see why you'd be like this. Because the Hijab isn't for religious services numbnuts. It's how a Muslim woman proclaims her faith and keep's herself right with Allah like how a Christian woman carries around the cross. It's an article of clothing that's both serviceable and religious.
As for this, I feel like this is a purely religious thing rather then government issue but I'm not gonna split hairs. This is the dumbest thing to ban a Muslim girl over and just shows how stupid France is. Wonder if any other French girl got sent home for wearing a skirt this long or if it's only her.
Ironbite-France certainly tries to minimize any form of religious identity. Wonder why.
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Sooooooo...guizonde, according to your view, nobody should be allowed to wear religious tat in public? No crosses, no ankh pendants or rings, no pentacles, Mjolnir medallions? You can't just ban headscarves and then turn around and allow other things and be considered anything other than a bigoted laughingstock. Hell, even if you banned them all across the board, you'd still be a bigoted laughingstock. Your country would also likely start hemorrhaging people, and thus money, leading to almost total economic ruin a la Spain. Religious folks are here to stay. Trying to marginalize around three quarters of your population (which is a very, VERY conservative estimate) is pretty much the stupidest damned thing you could possibly do.
France is run by morons, plain and simple.
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And I thought France was dumb for banning burqas...
actually that's a damn good thing. the only time a priest is seen in his garb is at church, the only time a rabbi dons his habits is in the sinagogue, so why the hell should any religious attire be worn in the street? regarding the skirt, it is stupid, seeing how that's the length of one of my own skirts and i don't want anyone banning my wearing of it. UP, consider it cultural shock if you will, but in france, religious garb of any kind is simply not as tolerated as in the usa.
Well that's kinda...bigoted of you. But then again you're French so I can see why you'd be like this. Because the Hijab isn't for religious services numbnuts. It's how a Muslim woman proclaims her faith and keep's herself right with Allah like how a Christian woman carries around the cross. It's an article of clothing that's both serviceable and religious.
As for this, I feel like this is a purely religious thing rather then government issue but I'm not gonna split hairs. This is the dumbest thing to ban a Muslim girl over and just shows how stupid France is. Wonder if any other French girl got sent home for wearing a skirt this long or if it's only her.
Ironbite-France certainly tries to minimize any form of religious identity. Wonder why.
@ravy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_France) by all means, read on. it's short, and shows that your 3/4 estimate may be true in the usa, but it's overblown in france. and you are right, if you must wear a pendant or whatever, hide it. i don't understand your argument about haemorraging people, do you refer to fines? i doubt it would lead to economic ruin, however. france is run by morons, but not for this reason. freedom from religion is the major motor of the fifth republic, for reasons that will become self-evident further on in the post.
@sigmaleph: indeed, but it's only tolerated for two reasons. a: it's their work outfit, so it falls in the professionnal category, and b: it obeys the same restrictions as all religious garb otherwise (never in a lay setting).
@dpareja: you're absolutely right.
@ironbite: bigoted maybe, but i stand by what i say. i don't like seeing people wearing crosses, kippas, headscarves, turbans, stars of david, hands of fatma, or any other religious symbol. to correct you on the veil, it was supposedly because one of muhammad's wives wore it as a sign of respect to her husband. it didn't become the de facto symbol of islam until the late 50's, when islam took a turn for the more hardline. for instance, nowhere does it say in the quran that a muslim cannot drink alcohol, only that he must be sober for prayer. nowadays, try and tell a muslim he can have a glass of wine without getting strange looks (i tried because i was friendly and it was 10 pm. got chewed out until he called his imam then he apologized). now, with that out of the way, i'll give you a few reasons why france might be going overboard on religious identity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_French_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_French_Empire)
along with voltaire, the fourth republic, many worldwide conflicts, and of course a major religious resentment dating back from the enlightenment, france is hostile to religion, maybe because it reminds them of the absolutist monarchies of the past (in which the king was head of church and state). any religious conflict is more ammo for france's hatred of worship. each link i've given is any one reason that can be raised by french scholars and politicians for the banning of religion (despite france's priviledged status in the eyes of the catholic church). when christine boutin raised a bible in the national assembly, it caused a massive uproar and she was nearly thrown out. when nicolas sarkozy went to visit the pope in the vatican, his popularity dipped. knee-jerk reactions that remind the french of a less than flattering past.
hope this explains my own anti-religious sentiments a bit better. if you have any questions, ask away. i just don't want a shitstorm, and hope we can agree to disagree if it comes to that.
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So, basically, what you're sayin is that France is led by people who can't tell the past from the present? That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
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So, basically, what you're sayin is that France is led by people who can't tell the past from the present? That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
that's a low blow. it's more like they don't wanna redo the errors of the past. besides, it's kind of pot-meets-kettle coming from an american, what with the legendary founding fathers. each country has its cross to bear (pun intended).
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Apologies, should've added a sarcasm tag or something, as I was mostly taking the piss. Still, there's such a thing as being too cautious, and I think France has kinda danced right across it.
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You can't just ban headscarves and then turn around and allow other things and be considered anything other than a bigoted laughingstock.
You can ban face-concealing headwear for entirely secular reasons. This is the usual interpretation for banning them in schools.
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You can't just ban headscarves and then turn around and allow other things and be considered anything other than a bigoted laughingstock.
You can ban face-concealing headwear for entirely secular reasons. This is the usual interpretation for banning them in schools.
Except, the item in question doesn't conceal the face, only the hair.
I can understand banning niqab, but banning hijab is unreasonable.
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Pigggggggxactly. Unlike the typical American dumbass, I differentiate between your normal headscarves and stuff like a niqab.
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
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Religious garb is often meant as a personal preference, rather than an attempt to showcase your religion to the public. The "I don't want anyone's views forced on me" line of logic can be applied to plenty of other topics, as well, from politics to fashion.
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I must say, France sounds like my kind of place. Well, almost. Slap a nice, big demerit tax on all religious institutions and then it'll be perfect.
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Religious garb is often meant as a personal preference, rather than an attempt to showcase your religion to the public. The "I don't want anyone's views forced on me" line of logic can be applied to plenty of other topics, as well, from politics to fashion.
if there's one thing i hate, it's student syndicalists spewing political views. i may have a problem with prozelytes in general.
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
So, wait, the french actually see wearing religious garb as forcing a point of view down someone's throat? I sincerely hope no one wears a shirt or anything for a brand or anything like that or else my head will explode.
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
So, wait, the french actually see wearing religious garb as forcing a point of view down someone's throat? I sincerely hope no one wears a shirt or anything for a brand or anything like that or else my head will explode.
yup, some things are more easily forced onto others. brands act as status symbols (as everywhere), so whenever somebody's sporting the latest *insert fashionable brand here*, they're saying "i'm richer than you, peasant". real high quality goods don't have a visible logo anymore because of the plebe's tendency to buy the flashiest symbols. but let's be honest, there wouldn't be a difference in the status quo if there had been massacres in the name of adidas instead of religion. adidas would be banned too. just look at nazi regalia. yes, i went there.
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
So, wait, the french actually see wearing religious garb as forcing a point of view down someone's throat? I sincerely hope no one wears a shirt or anything for a brand or anything like that or else my head will explode.
yup, some things are more easily forced onto others. brands act as status symbols (as everywhere), so whenever somebody's sporting the latest *insert fashionable brand here*, they're saying "i'm richer than you, peasant". real high quality goods don't have a visible logo anymore because of the plebe's tendency to buy the flashiest symbols. but let's be honest, there wouldn't be a difference in the status quo if there had been massacres in the name of adidas instead of religion. adidas would be banned too. just look at nazi regalia. yes, i went there.
Wow, y'all motherfuckers got some thin assed skin.
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
So, wait, the french actually see wearing religious garb as forcing a point of view down someone's throat? I sincerely hope no one wears a shirt or anything for a brand or anything like that or else my head will explode.
yup, some things are more easily forced onto others. brands act as status symbols (as everywhere), so whenever somebody's sporting the latest *insert fashionable brand here*, they're saying "i'm richer than you, peasant". real high quality goods don't have a visible logo anymore because of the plebe's tendency to buy the flashiest symbols. but let's be honest, there wouldn't be a difference in the status quo if there had been massacres in the name of adidas instead of religion. adidas would be banned too. just look at nazi regalia. yes, i went there.
Wow, y'all motherfuckers got some thin assed skin.
Well, what do you expect from a country with an irrational hatred of loanwords?
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May I ask what the problem is with me wearing a kippa in public (which I do)?
it's a religious symbol, and in a country that prides itself on its non-religiosity it can be seen as a mark of disrespect. nothing more. i don't go around shoving my atheism down people's throats (hell, aside from my views on religious garb, i think i'm pretty open-minded on different faiths), so i don't want anyone's views forced unto me. most french think like that, and some can be weirded out by seeing a kippa because it's just so uncommon...
although due to the holocaust happening, jews are pretty much exempt from repercussions. france has major survivor's guilt about world war two, and because jews are seen perhaps underservedly as the martyrs of the war, they are mostly free do go on about their business as they please. unlike muslims who are today's buttmonkeys.
nothing goes hand in hand like xenophobia and anti-religious sentiment. but it's ok, because the french only hate people that are different than them.
*goes raging*
eta: were i living in another country, i would have no problem seeing religious garb in public (like when i lived in the usa). however, secular law trumps spiritual law, and france's laws are pretty open and shut about this topic.
So, wait, the french actually see wearing religious garb as forcing a point of view down someone's throat? I sincerely hope no one wears a shirt or anything for a brand or anything like that or else my head will explode.
yup, some things are more easily forced onto others. brands act as status symbols (as everywhere), so whenever somebody's sporting the latest *insert fashionable brand here*, they're saying "i'm richer than you, peasant". real high quality goods don't have a visible logo anymore because of the plebe's tendency to buy the flashiest symbols. but let's be honest, there wouldn't be a difference in the status quo if there had been massacres in the name of adidas instead of religion. adidas would be banned too. just look at nazi regalia. yes, i went there.
Wow, y'all motherfuckers got some thin assed skin.
Well, what do you expect from a country with an irrational hatred of loanwords?
and plagiarism, and the british, and the italian, and the spanish, and the romanians, and the arabs, and everything not french, and waxy cheese, and american wine, and anglo-saxon music, and vegans, and fascists, and communists, and monarchists, and anarchists, and commonlaw, and uncommonlaw, and....
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Actually, all of guiszonde's posts here, and in other threads, have simply re-enforced my exceedingly high opinion of him as a forum member. He has an immensely valuable point of view to share with all of us, unique in having been raised in France - a very fine country, as first world nations go, of late. And he has not only survived living in the US, but has completed his education here, and in that time span, has kept his sanity. This is no small accomplishment. I have described the US to even Australian nationals as fucking well being a virtual Mars - another planet. Having McDonalds in your home land does not adequately prepare you for just how fucking idiotically schizo this place really is. Guizonde has kept his identity intact after all that as a modern French man, and possesses the inherent wisdom and talent to be able to see through all the shit and yet glean the best of both very divergent world views for our collective forum-member edification.
tldr: guizonde is the shit, and he's very patiently and politely explaining difficult, French, out-of-US-cultural-paradigm CONCEPTS that just fucking press our buttons, through no fault of his own. Yet, over all, France is the more Democratic country of the two, faults included. How do we scream about anti-hijab laws, when Baltimore burns for home-grown, even more fucked up reasons?
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
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We know it's really cause you French are all a bunch of snobby fashion police and religious garb is so last season.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
Almost as if threads had a tendency to veer off-topic in this forum.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).
@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.
@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.
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Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours? Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).
@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.
@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.
Yet we all, including myself and guizonde, know perfectly well that French law is being applied against this girl because her long skirt is garbing a Muslim. This would not have happened against a French girl who is Catholic, for example. Her headscarf is her primary emblazoning - her Scarlet Letter - of herself as an outlaw (?). Nobody commenting in this thread has missed a cue or a clue as to that. France is wrong, guizonde acknowledges. I acknowledge. We all acknowledge that. Yet guizonde is wisely and carefully explaining the historical and socio-political "why", and not actually trying to exonerate it in this case.
However, the very well-intentioned point behind these laws in France is this; The Rights of a Human Being, the Inherent Nature of Human Dignity (all from the well-understood Modern Western Civilization concepts - which are highly valuable concepts!) trump all religious requirements of dress and behavior specific to the tenets of any religion, regardless whether they are voluntarily and enthusiastically adhered to by individuals.
The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.
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The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.
There is not a like button big enough for this. Seriously, god damn.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).
@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.
@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.
Yet we all, including myself and guizonde, know perfectly well that French law is being applied against this girl because her long skirt is garbing a Muslim. This would not have happened against a French girl who is Catholic, for example. Her headscarf is her primary emblazoning - her Scarlet Letter - of herself as an outlaw (?). Nobody commenting in this thread has missed a cue or a clue as to that. France is wrong, guizonde acknowledges. I acknowledge. We all acknowledge that. Yet guizonde is wisely and carefully explaining the historical and socio-political "why", and not actually trying to exonerate it in this case.
However, the very well-intentioned point behind these laws in France is this; The Rights of a Human Being, the Inherent Nature of Human Dignity (all from the well-understood Modern Western Civilization concepts - which are highly valuable concepts!) trump all religious requirements of dress and behavior specific to the tenets of any religion, regardless whether they are voluntarily and enthusiastically adhered to by individuals.
The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.
Damn, for this post I owe you a beverage of choice.
I wasn't meaning to be hostile sounding to guizonde, but this is seriously oppressing people just so someone else doesn't feel uncomfortable. I can't bring myself to want to be understanding and tolerant of it.
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Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours? Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.
yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.
@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.
@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.
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Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours? Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.
yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.
@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.
@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.
I would have to agree to a certain point, but if the girl is following it of her own free will, they have no right to force her to change simply because someone else doesn't like it. Otherwise what is stopping them from banning non-religious articles of clothing for similar frivolous reasons?
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Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours? Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.
yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.
@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.
@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.
I would have to agree to a certain point, but if the girl is following it of her own free will, they have no right to force her to change simply because someone else doesn't like it. Otherwise what is stopping them from banning non-religious articles of clothing for similar frivolous reasons?
Ironically, it's the same basic principle that leads religious fanatics to call for things they don't like to be banned.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
Almost as if threads had a tendency to veer off-topic in this forum.
This isntbveering off topic. This is going to a new, unrelated topic
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I recently found out that a hijab isn't a "lust prevention measure" although it is a popular idea with many Middle Eastern men. It's meant to be a gesture to say that a woman is as sacred as a tabernacle because she can contain another soul. Even if I don't believe that we have souls, I could respect that reason. I have to resist the urge to strangle insecure men with their precious "lust prevention implement" if they think it is in any way, shape or form effective. Even a niquab could be dangerous because some guys have a fetish for doe eyes and that would draw attention to that feature. I know I'm a bit soft for Bambi-eyed females.
And I'd like to say that I don't find anything wrong with her skirt or her scarf. Maybe it's because headscarves and ankle length skirts would be all the rage next year and they were jealous.
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I feel obligated to respong to all this, being another frenchman and all.
On the original topic of the thread : yikes. Banning a skirt for being too long (and vaguely reminiscent of religious garb) was stupid and offensive. I facepalmed the fist time I got in contact with that story.
On the topic drift : well, yeah, France does have a tradition of being agressively non-religious, as far as our institutions are concerned. As someone who is pretty anti-religion myself (or at least, who feels that religious fee-fees have no fucking place in public discourse when talking about the way the country is run) I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing. The kicker is that the way anti-religious laws are usually enforced ends up pushing even harder against opressed groups, which is pretty shitty.
I'm seriously torn up on the issue.
PS : Also, to clarify, you totally can wear religious garb out in public. That's not against the law. You are not allowed, however, to wear a kippa or a hijab or a tshirt with a cross when in a governement-funded place. That goes for schools, mairies, government buildings, army barracks, etc. By all means, wear everything you want when going out for a coffee.
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PS : Also, to clarify, you totally can wear religious garb out in public. That's not against the law. You are not allowed, however, to wear a kippa or a hijab or a tshirt with a cross when in a governement-funded place. That goes for schools, mairies, government buildings, army barracks, etc. By all means, wear everything you want when going out for a coffee.
When you put it this way, the law makes more sense. On the other hand, Canada tends to be a little more slack on this level of secularism because religion it is a part of culture, and the level of integration tends to be more of a success if you don't just "throw them in the melting pot."
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... Canada tends to be a little more slack on this level of secularism because religion it is a part of culture, and the level of integration tends to be more of a success if you don't just "throw them in the melting pot."
That's interesting. Normally I'll say that as a throw away comment but this time really I find that interesting. In the. U.S. it's having an opposite effect. The integration is being slowed. People tend to congregate in homogeneous groups. The El Salvadorians tend to group together. The Africans, the Caribbeans, the Indians, the Pakistani, the eastern Europeans, the Jewish, etc. They all tend to group up with common languages and cultures. Rather than the misguided melting pot or even the tossed salad I've hear in my past, we tend to get a child's plate with raised partitions separating the veggies from the meat from the potatoes.
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I disagree!!
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Part of that homogeneity is simple human instinct from the days when we were living in caves and desperately trying to kill our food with sharpened sticks. We prefer those of our own group because we share a lot of similar traits: similar language, general body features, cultural idioms, etc. That makes us feel more comfortable and secure, whereas people that look different or speak a different tongue make us feel uncomfortable and/or insecure. It...wouldn't be a bad thing if it didn't lead to a lot of bigotry and such. At least, not in and of itself.
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I am an atheist. Accordingly, when I go out in public I wear nothing.
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Rookie, I'll give that many immigrants in any country will tend to group together for those things that Ravynous mentioned. It's just that in that "multicultural" model, there's less pressure (so there is still some pressure, but not as much) to adopt the cultural norm of the area, so those who immigrate feel that they have something to add to their new society rather than something to prove. Or I could be just brainwashed by that evil lieberal propaganda. Partly because to me, it makes sense to respect someone's culture as long as they aren't breaking the law.
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What is it with the French and their desire to enforce fashion on their populace?
Particularly weird in this case when they apply it to schoolgirls.
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What is it with the French and their desire to enforce fashion on their populace?
Particularly weird in this case when they apply it to schoolgirls.
try being the birthplace of yves saint laurant, coco chanel, jean-paul gaultier, etc without it rubbing off on your standards.
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What is it with the French and their desire to enforce fashion on their populace?
Particularly weird in this case when they apply it to schoolgirls.
Gotta wonder if they'd have a problem with stereotypical Catholic schoolgirl outfits... >.>
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What is it with the French and their desire to enforce fashion on their populace?
Particularly weird in this case when they apply it to schoolgirls.
Gotta wonder if they'd have a problem with stereotypical Catholic schoolgirl outfits... >.>
they do. too boring. i wish i was joking but that's france's main gripe with school uniforms.
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Know what I love? And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.
This thread? This isn't about religious garb. It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.
Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.
Almost as if threads had a tendency to veer off-topic in this forum.
This isntbveering off topic. This is going to a new, unrelated topic
...how is "French anti-hijab laws" an unrelated topic to "French school tells Muslim girl she can't wear a piece of clothing because it's supposedly religious"? As topic drift goes, that is probably the most related topic I can imagine.
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What is it with the French and their desire to enforce fashion on their populace?
Particularly weird in this case when they apply it to schoolgirls.
Gotta wonder if they'd have a problem with stereotypical Catholic schoolgirl outfits... >.>
they do. too boring. i wish i was joking but that's france's main gripe with school uniforms.
HA, so the French do have a sense of humour. Good. Also, I agree, school uniforms make things very, very boring. As boring as school is by its very nature, I think we, as adults, are obligated to alleviate as much boredom on the part of students as is humanly possible.
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Regarding school uniforms, I know one rationale in the United States for them, at least in the inner city, is preventing students from identifying with gang colors. I'm not sure how much this actually works, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.
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O haven't heard preventing gang colors but it shots make sense. I've always heard it's to stop bullying about clothes. Like designer whatever.
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Regarding school uniforms, I know one rationale in the United States for them, at least in the inner city, is preventing students from identifying with gang colors. I'm not sure how much this actually works, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.
They'll find other ways around it. Coloured shoelaces come to mind. Honestly, to me, its just another pathetic attempt at forcing conformity that is doomed to failure because kids are assholes, and will generally do the exact opposite of whatever it is you tell them to do.
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Regarding school uniforms, I know one rationale in the United States for them, at least in the inner city, is preventing students from identifying with gang colors. I'm not sure how much this actually works, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.
I thought school uniforms in the US were more of a private school thing?
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Nope they have em here in Louisiana I hate the ever loving fuck out of them since they look like shit and aren't comfortable at all.
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Depends on the uniform. For full blown suits, yeah, that's pretty much a private school thing, or at least a nice suburb. For inner city schools, uniforms can consist of khaki or black pants and a shirt that can be one of three solid colors or so, typically neutral, unaffiliated colors. So rather than a "uniform", it's more like a "limitedpolyform". Granted, I can only speak for a single school district, so make of that what you will.
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Yeah. My kids in Baltimore City schools have to wear khaki and a solid color Polo shirt. Theirs happens to be red. Go Hazelwood Owls! But the khaki pants are city school wide. County Schools don't have that.
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Where I grew up, only private schools required uniforms. Still, our dress codes were pretty unfairly enforced, targeting girls whose tank top straps were a centimeter too thin or other similar nonsense. Their most recent method of enforcement was requiring students to change into hideous outfits, should their clothes not comply with the school's code. Pretty creative, but the code itself was still unfair.
Also, thanks to LeTipex for the clarification, because that is a big difference. I do wish that secularism was more strongly enforced in our schools, considering some teachers will try to sneak religion into their lessons. Granted, teachers who do that today are more likely to get suspended or fired.
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Yeah, after Jonesboro and Columbine, my area's schools went bug-fuck nuts with that crap. You could only have clear plastic or mesh backpacks and could barely carry a pen with you to class without it being classified as a weapon. Funny, since they only seemed to target kids that were "weird" or "loners," ie: me. God forbid I wear a long coat during winter because its fucking comfortable or wear shades outside.
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Yeah, after Jonesboro and Columbine, my area's schools went bug-fuck nuts with that crap. You could only have clear plastic or mesh backpacks and could barely carry a pen with you to class without it being classified as a weapon. Funny, since they only seemed to target kids that were "weird" or "loners," ie: me. God forbid I wear a long coat during winter because its fucking comfortable or wear shades outside.
Makes me glad I finished high school before Columbine.
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Aye. "Zero Tolerance" became even more "zero thought" than it was before. It was...quite appalling.
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Yeah, after Jonesboro and Columbine, my area's schools went bug-fuck nuts with that crap. You could only have clear plastic or mesh backpacks and could barely carry a pen with you to class without it being classified as a weapon. Funny, since they only seemed to target kids that were "weird" or "loners," ie: me. God forbid I wear a long coat during winter because its fucking comfortable or wear shades outside.
I was in fairfax county when thé Washington sniper struck. Probably the origin of my psychosis. I feel y ou, the schoolmwent nuts du ring and after that.
Sorry for the typos and the capital letters, writing on an autocorrect-to-french tablet is a pain.
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Yeah, after Jonesboro and Columbine, my area's schools went bug-fuck nuts with that crap. You could only have clear plastic or mesh backpacks and could barely carry a pen with you to class without it being classified as a weapon. Funny, since they only seemed to target kids that were "weird" or "loners," ie: me. God forbid I wear a long coat during winter because its fucking comfortable or wear shades outside.
I was in fairfax county when thé Washington sniper struck. Probably the origin of my psychosis. I feel y ou, the schoolmwent nuts du ring and after that.
Sorry for the typos and the capital letters, writing on an autocorrect-to-french tablet is a pain.
Well shit.
Ironbite-I had moved out by that point.