Girl Show Ghetto

[Captain Jack Harkness]

So I was just thinking about the girl show ghetto and the notion that there were no good girls' shows before Friendship is Magic.  That's a load of bull pucky.  Just because it's easy to attack girls' shows as lame doesn't mean that comes close to reflecting reality.  Hell, girls had good shows even before PPG!

So yeah.  Let's talk about the bullshit that is the Girl Show Ghetto.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

[Art Vandelay]

Basically, children's cartoons. Do with that information what you will.

[Patches]

I think it's because, since most TV writers are men, they tend to treat girls as an entirely separate species.  Shows meant for boys tend to get a large fanbase from both genders because they tend to cover what humans in general enjoy.  But shows meant for girls tend to be very niche.  Boys' shows could deal with anything or everything and had no limit on how high the stakes could go.  But if a show was meant for girls, it necessarily had to deal with things that were "specifically for girls" like make-up and dating.  The stakes could never go any higher than that, because then it's not "for girls" anymore.

Which then tends to be why girls' shows suck, because the conflicts, if there even are any, are completely unrelatable to over half the population (since there are plenty of girls who don't give a damn about make-up and dresses, either).

That's why I appreciate "Legend of Korra" so much, despite some of its other faults.  It's one of the first action shows I've seen with a female lead that doesn't go out of its way to say, "LOOK, OUR LEAD IS A GIRL!  AND SHE'S BROWN!  LOOK AT HOW GIRL AND BROWN SHE IS!"  They just wrote her as a person who happens to be female and brown.

And I think that's why MLP is so successful, because it decided to write its characters as actual characters instead of completely interchangeable clones where girls were just expected to pick which one was their favorite color.  And the conflicts are never so mundane as "Do these shoes go with this dress?", but rather focus on actual interpersonal relationship issues that pretty much everyone, boy or girl, has encountered at some point in life.

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I think it's because, since most TV writers are men, they tend to treat girls as an entirely separate species.  Shows meant for boys tend to get a large fanbase from both genders because they tend to cover what humans in general enjoy.  But shows meant for girls tend to be very niche.  Boys' shows could deal with anything or everything and had no limit on how high the stakes could go.  But if a show was meant for girls, it necessarily had to deal with things that were "specifically for girls" like make-up and dating.  The stakes could never go any higher than that, because then it's not "for girls" anymore.

Which then tends to be why girls' shows suck, because the conflicts, if there even are any, are completely unrelatable to over half the population (since there are plenty of girls who don't give a damn about make-up and dresses, either).

That's why I appreciate "Legend of Korra" so much, despite some of its other faults.  It's one of the first action shows I've seen with a female lead that doesn't go out of its way to say, "LOOK, OUR LEAD IS A GIRL!  AND SHE'S BROWN!  LOOK AT HOW GIRL AND BROWN SHE IS!"  They just wrote her as a person who happens to be female and brown.

And I think that's why MLP is so successful, because it decided to write its characters as actual characters instead of completely interchangeable clones where girls were just expected to pick which one was their favorite color.  And the conflicts are never so mundane as "Do these shoes go with this dress?", but rather focus on actual interpersonal relationship issues that pretty much everyone, boy or girl, has encountered at some point in life.

Most writers are men?  I dunno about that assertion.  I see plenty of credits roll for plenty of shows, and I see a good share of women in the names.  Unless you have some statistics, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Also, look at the shows that have broken the ghetto in the OP's link.  That doesn't make them less "girly and lame" then the others.  It just means they made an impact on people more than other shows.

[Osama bin Bambi]

I don't know, I thought The Powerpuff Girls was pretty good.

[Patches]

Most writers are men?  I dunno about that assertion.  I see plenty of credits roll for plenty of shows, and I see a good share of women in the names.  Unless you have some statistics, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/tv-writing-remains-white-mans-world-writers-guild-study-finds-82556
http://www.thewrap.com/music/article/sexist-hollywood-women-still-struggle-find-film-jobs-study-finds-74076
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/11/26/the_dan_harmon_theory_of_how_to_get_more_women_writing_television_convince.html

The general findings are that only about 15-25% of TV and film writers are women, and 68% of TV shows have no women writing for them at all.  Women still work in TV and film, but they're not the ones calling the shots most of the time.

[Alehksunos]

I don't know, I thought The Powerpuff Girls was pretty good.

Oh my god, I fucking loved that show growing up, and I never gave a shit that it was for girls. Then again, I grew up watching "Disney Princess" films, so I've only batted an eye on really stuffy... stuff.

Also, Patches continues to be one of the best people on this forum as she puts a lot of thought and even research in her posts.

[Dakota Bob]

The Powerpuff Girls was a girls show?

[Captain Jack Harkness]

The Powerpuff Girls was a girls show?

Damn straight it was, Skippy.  It was one of many excellent girls' shows that preceded FiM.

[Witchyjoshy]

*decides that this topic is appropriate for what he wanted to talk about*

One thing that bothers me about bronies is that they try to scoff at the idea that the show is ACTUALLY aimed at little girls.

I find them stupid.  Okay, so the "Royal Wedding" episodes turned out to actually be an epic tale of invasions and stuff like that.

The target audience is, in fact, still little girls.  And we should be celebrating this fact because it means that a show that is primarily targeted at girls is not treating those girls as sissy little ninnies who shouldn't care about epic adventures, like so many other girls' shows do.

We WANT this to be aimed at little girls.  We WANT them to realize that, hey, ponies are for more than brushing hair, they're for having great adventures against terrible evil forces.  Kinda like She-Ra actually.

I find it funny that She Ra, despite being essentially "He Man" for girls, was actually a surprisingly progressive show for its time, as it wasn't unusual for girls shows to essentially be "Fashion and female gender roles!" and then we have someone who is the twin sister of the "MANLIEST MAN IN THE UNIVERSE" and she kicks PRECISELY as much ass as he does, maybe even more so.  Oh and she's essentially a Paladin to her brother's Barbarian.

...Essentially, my point is, "sure, little girls are the target audience.  Assumptions that plotlines such as terrorism, invasions, and political intrigue go above the heads of little girls but not little boys is precisely why girls shows have a ghetto in the first place."

[Alehksunos]

If I ever do get into My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic enough to where I will want to brag about it (the same way when I've first seen both Star Trek The Original Series and The Next Generation), I would call myself an "MLP-Fan" and not "Brony". To me, a Brony is a racist, sexist, homophobic (if it doesn't involve lesbianism, but still a double-standard), transphobic, etc. sack of shit who self-worth themselves over a fucking show for girls and slams anyone who isn't into the show. Not only that, most of them look like shit and those who don't look like shit are douchebags in fedoras and whatever accessories that scream "don't date this asshole".

And then, there are anti-Bronies. Don't get these words wrong. It's okay to dislike MLP:FiM (for example, you don't find it "cute" but "annoying"), but do realize that "Ew, it's a girls show" is illegitimate criticism when you're into works like Super Mario Brothers, Pokémon, etc., as those are for kids, who you're most likely not. What I'm saying is you're slamming fans of a show because it's not aimed for them when you like works that isn't aimed for you. Ugh, I'm so sick of people dismissing a work and being totally ignorant about it at the same time, and I'm equally sick of this "love and tolerance" meme these hypocrites smear around.

Because that fandom has gone to hell, I reject the "Brony" label (and again, I haven't gotten into the show yet), the same way I reject other labels like "Furry".

[SpaceProg]

What immediately came to my mind was the above mentioned She-Ra and also Jem.   

[Captain Jack Harkness]

Most writers are men?  I dunno about that assertion.  I see plenty of credits roll for plenty of shows, and I see a good share of women in the names.  Unless you have some statistics, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/tv-writing-remains-white-mans-world-writers-guild-study-finds-82556
http://www.thewrap.com/music/article/sexist-hollywood-women-still-struggle-find-film-jobs-study-finds-74076
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/11/26/the_dan_harmon_theory_of_how_to_get_more_women_writing_television_convince.html

The general findings are that only about 15-25% of TV and film writers are women, and 68% of TV shows have no women writing for them at all.  Women still work in TV and film, but they're not the ones calling the shots most of the time.

Well, I wanted stats and I got them.  I want to debunk the conclusions made by them, but that's gonna take some research.  Also I have yet to read them.

Thanks for following through with stats.  That's really cool.

Alehksu Kihdo:  Gonna be another one of these people eh?  How about you not judge people by the name of the groups they wish to associate with?  That'd be great, okay?  What you're doing is no different from what fundies do to atheists.  Seriously dude.  Not cool.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

I don't know, I thought The Powerpuff Girls was pretty good.

*sings* Fighting crime, trying to save the woooorld...