Author Topic: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole  (Read 14467 times)

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 05:32:20 pm »
I suspect that all this is why the countries I named above have seen less misbehavior by Muslim immigrants than the European countries have--we do a better job in general of assimilating our immigrants, simply because the European countries aren't predominantly immigrant-based societies (like the USA, Canada, Australia, Brazil, New Zealand) and haven't historically had significant Muslim populations (like India and Singapore).

You don't get to decide how other people dress, what religion they believe in or what they like to eat. If you think that immigrants aren't adopting your culture (assimilating) you do not get to force them, nor do you get to prevent them coming on the basis of race or religion.

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It is similar to colonialism in the sense that the governments are bending over backwards to accommodate people who have no interest in being European and assimilating into the local culture, and the native population has had no say in this--just as the natives of the Americas, Africa, and the Asian countries had no say in how the European empires took over their nations.

That's a pretty long bow. Europeans don't get to run immigrants' lives for them, just as Africans were forced into slavery and outright murdered with impunity. Not being able to persecute others is not the same as persecution. White Europeans do not get a say in what culture other people believe and nor should they.
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 06:06:30 pm »
You're missing my point entirely, Fred.

The fact that multicultural policy (or something similar to it) works in some countries doesn't mean it is appropriate in all countries.  That in and of itself borders on racism.

Multiculturalism can work well in countries in which the population is mostly descendants of immigrants (i.e. the Americas, Australia, New Zealand).  It is even more appropriate in countries which have historically been multiethnic/multireligious (India being perhaps the chief example of this).

It is probably not appropriate in countries which have been the ethnic homeland of people for generations and have historically not been multiethnic (e.g., most of Europe).  It does, however, provide a good cover story for businessmen who want cheaper labor, and politicians who wish to import people who will vote in their favor.  It also provides a great method for those who wish to play the game of "divide and conquer" (which I alluded to in the post I cut & paste earlier).

If you can't see how "multiculturalism" can, and has, been used as a political tool, you're not looking hard enough.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 06:11:10 pm by Fpqxz »
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 06:18:42 pm »
Let's accept it as a given that multiculturalism has bad results, and that people did not get a vote on it. What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No. Forcing people to change culture? No.

It's my contention that there is no alternative to multiculturalism. You must not stop it, you can only adapt.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2012, 06:34:32 pm »
Let's accept it as a given that multiculturalism has bad results, and that people did not get a vote on it.

And you're OK with that?

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What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in?  I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

If the Native Americans were still the majority population in the USA, would you tell them they were required to let the hairy palefaced invaders into their land?

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Forcing people to change culture? No.

I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

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It's my contention that there is no alternative to multiculturalism. You must not stop it, you can only adapt.

Again, you are assuming that a policy which works well in one type of country will work well everywhere.  That is rather Americentric, to say the least.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 06:36:30 pm by Fpqxz »
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 06:05:21 am »
What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in? 

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

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I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

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I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 03:45:55 pm »
What's the alternative? Racist discrimination in immigration policy? No.

Considering that these are the historical ethnic homelands of these people, why shouldn't the people have a say in who gets in? 

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

Quote
I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

Quote
I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.

So fred, you would be cool with us and the Americans sending you all our fundies? I'm guessing the answer is no because you know they don't play well with others and would quite happily shit on large parts of your constitutional rights and freedoms by demanding that they be allowed to ignore the parts they don't like if not outright changing it to force everyone to fall in line with their world view.

I know that they are not a poor oppressed people so it doesn't feel quite as noble, but by your metric, they have as much right as everybody else.

Now, before anyone gets too bent out of shape I'm not saying "all darkies are bad," and neither is anyone else here. All anyone is saying is that if your social values are not compatible and you are not willing to adapt, why should we let you in? Give me a good reason. I'm not willing to sacrifice my nice liberal democracy that believes in equality and the rule of law, but I am quite happy to share it.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 05:19:24 pm »
Let's assume that a large number of people from a religious group I didn't want wanted to come to Australia. I don't think the government of Australia should be allowed to prevent them, because governments should never discriminate on the basis of race, religion or political belief- nor should anyone get a vote on it, if we accept the idea of rights and the tyranny of the majority. There are some basis you can discriminate against people- you can prevent criminals from immigrating, for instance, or people with nasty diseases. But not race. Racism is wrong, period.

If you've got some other way of dealing with multiculturalism, a way that does not rely on violation of rights, you can do that. But I don't think there is a way for that to happen, so there is no alternative to multiculturalism.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 05:38:07 pm »

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism.  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.  And for the most part, it has worked.  Just FYI, I live in Northern New Jersey which has a significant immigrant population from many different regions/countries.  I can tell you firsthand that this approach works far better than multiculturalism.

Quote from: Lt. Fred
Quote from: Fpqxz
I don't see anyone complaining about the relatively closed immigration policies of China, South Korea, Japan, United Arab Emirates, etc., and those are all (relatively) wealthy countries.

Absolutely I disagree with their policy, and they must change it immediately.

Again, you are assuming that a policy which would work in a wealthy, developed, ethnically-mixed country (like the USA) is appropriate for all.  That's a rather blinkered assumption.

What about smaller countries who are desperately trying to preserve their culture (like Bhutan, let's say)?

Oh, and you never did answer my question about the Native Americans.   :P

Quote from: Lt. Fred
Quote from: Fpqxz
I'm all for freedom of religion, dress, food, etc.  But I think immigrants should at least examine the values of their host countries and try to adopt them.  As Shakespeare once wrote, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Red herring; we're talking about what the government should do, not immigrants.

The two things are connected though.  You are Australian, right?  (I gathered as much from the allusion to the "White Australia" policy, which is not what I am advocating here anyway.)  I have always wanted to visit Australia.  How would you like it if a bunch of obnoxious Teabagger white Americans moved into your country and started complaining about everything and making all kinds of political demands, like the elimination of your public healthcare system because it is "TEH SOSHULIZUM!!1!" ?  Shit, it's bad enough that you have to put up with the whinging Poms, right?   ;D
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2012, 05:41:04 pm »
So fred, you would be cool with us and the Americans sending you all our fundies? I'm guessing the answer is no because you know they don't play well with others and would quite happily shit on large parts of your constitutional rights and freedoms by demanding that they be allowed to ignore the parts they don't like if not outright changing it to force everyone to fall in line with their world view.

I know that they are not a poor oppressed people so it doesn't feel quite as noble, but by your metric, they have as much right as everybody else.

Now, before anyone gets too bent out of shape I'm not saying "all darkies are bad," and neither is anyone else here. All anyone is saying is that if your social values are not compatible and you are not willing to adapt, why should we let you in? Give me a good reason. I'm not willing to sacrifice my nice liberal democracy that believes in equality and the rule of law, but I am quite happy to share it.

Thank you!!!  This is what I am talking about.

It's nice to see someone trying to understand what I am saying without screaming "DAS RAYCISS!!!!11!!"  Race is really not a part of this argument at all.
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
you're the bigots you flaunt to loathe.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 06:10:27 pm »

Because racial discrimination is wrong, always, everywhere, forever. A White Europe policy, to adopt an antipodean phrase, is simply not an option. So, other than racism, what's the alternative to multiculturalism?

In a word:  Assimilationism.  Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.  And for the most part, it has worked.

Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2012, 06:15:44 pm »
Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x

I never said that our culture was superior, or even perfect.  I'm just saying that in terms of social cohesion, it's a pretty good system.
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
you're the bigots you flaunt to loathe.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2012, 06:24:30 pm »
Yeah, worked in creating a xenophobic society that views itself to be so absolutely superior to all the other masses that its superior "culture" should be imposed on the rest of the world.

USA's a baaaaad example for the "qualities" of the melting pot system x_x

I never said that our culture was superior, or even perfect.  I'm just saying that in terms of social cohesion, it's a pretty good system.

What social cohesion?

We've got two "factions" that are in a political war with each other.  We have people discriminated against and even killed because of their skin color or how they dress.  God forbid you wear the clothes you brought from your homeland, because you will have protests staged outside your house because they view you as an invader.

As far as social cohesion goes, we've got shit.
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Offline TheL

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2012, 06:34:34 pm »
Government policies designed to promote domestic values and assist immigrants in acclimating to their new home.  Not letting them simply form their own enclaves and ignore the broader society.  That's not to suggest that they don't get to keep their own religion and elements of their culture, so long as they don't conflict with the laws and broader mores of our society.  The "melting pot" approach, so to speak.

That's the way we have been doing it in the USA for many years.

No it isn't.  US history has multiple cases of Irish-Italian ghettos in the 19th century.  And what about all the Chinatowns out there?  Those are enclaves of Chinese culture and Chinese immigrants (and their descendants) in the United States.

The "melting pot" was an idealized concept that never actually happened.  Otherwise, you wouldn't see American citizens wearing saris or eating pizza.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 06:37:31 pm by TheL »
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Offline Old Viking

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 07:41:51 pm »
If people don't stop using apostrophe-s to form plural nouns, I'm going to do some serious killing.  It's all pretty simple.  Apostrophe-s is singular possessive. (Fred's apple; horse's patoot.)  In English the plural is usually formed by adding an "s."  (Fred bought ten apples.) Sometimes "es."  (Those are Fred's boxes.)  And there are exceptions. But the plural is goddamn well never formed by apostrophe-s.  (Fred bought ten apple's.)  Do the right thing to avoid my wrath.

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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: In case you thought Hungary is not a far right hell hole
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 07:51:47 pm »
What social cohesion?

We've got two "factions" that are in a political war with each other.  We have people discriminated against and even killed because of their skin color or how they dress.  God forbid you wear the clothes you brought from your homeland, because you will have protests staged outside your house because they view you as an invader.

As far as social cohesion goes, we've got shit.

All those things you mentioned are far, far more common in the developing world than they are here.  There are incidents of racial, ethnic, religious, and political violence in every country.  They are rare enough in the USA (for now) that they are considered an exceptional event worthy of reporting.  (Incidentally, I'm not sure about the last thing you mentioned.)

This is not Northern Ireland, or Chechnya, or Jamaica, or Colombia, or South Africa, or Pakistan, or Sudan, or Syria.  We are better off in terms of social cohesion than many countries, even developed countries.  I know that may be a sad commentary on our times, but there it is.


No it isn't.  US history has multiple cases of Irish-Italian ghettos in the 19th century.  And what about all the Chinatowns out there?  Those are enclaves of Chinese culture and Chinese immigrants (and their descendants) in the United States.

The "melting pot" was an idealized concept that never actually happened.  Otherwise, you wouldn't see American citizens wearing saris or eating pizza.

You're really going to compare modern U.S. immigration policy and practice to what it was in the 19th century?  That's a bit unfair.  If anything, we have gotten better at assimilating immigrants over the years.  I can tell you that modern immigrants in general face much less discrimination and abuse than my ancestors did when they came over from Italy and Eastern Europe a little over a century ago.

And as far as Chinatowns are concerned, modern Chinatowns are more commercial and cultural attractions than "ethnic enclaves".  You don't typically see immigrant communities in the modern USA looking down on outsiders--it's bad for business, after all.
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Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
you're the bigots you flaunt to loathe.
--Thought Industry, Boil