How many fundamentalists actually want to believe what they believe?

[rageaholic]

Fundamentalism is one of the most depressing world views you can have.  I mean, the very basis of the faith is that everyone is so rotten and sinful that only by being a born again Christian can one escape eternal punishment.  That's not even going into all the restrictions that their religion imposes on them.  I just can't imagine anyone wanting to believe this.  This is why I'm partly convinced that most fundamentalists don't want to believe it, but don't know any better so just follow along.  Just go on a site like ExChristian.net and you'll find very few, if any people who would be happy to go back believing again.  There are even a few of us on here who have been former fundies and considering what this site used to part of, I'd venture that they aren't missing their former beliefs either. 

That said, some of the justifications apologists use are so insane, so illogical, and so desperate that I wonder if some of these people are afraid of losing their beliefs.  This is what I fail to understand.  People are not only clinging to harmful beliefs, but going out of their way to justify why they're true.  Why??

I have a few theories.  Maybe they're afraid of having to change their entire world view, maybe they have fond memories despite the horrific beliefs, maybe there's social barriers encouraging group think, or maybe some are just sadistic assholes who relish at the thought of people burning in hell.  I don't know.  I mean my fundamentalism was just a phase I went through. I hadn't grown up with it so maybe there's some complex psychology going on.  But it both baffles and enrages me to see so many clinging to believes that they have no reason to hold. 

[Ultimate Paragon]

Maybe it's a variation of "if it tastes bad, it must be good for you".

[dpareja]

...or maybe some are just sadistic assholes who relish at the thought of people burning in hell.

I imagine this is part of it. Keep in mind that said fundies also often believe that they will be going to heaven, so from that point of view it's not exactly depressing--you're guaranteed eternal bliss!

And I know well how good schadenfreude feels.

[solar.]

Back when I was a fundie Catholic during middle school, I didn't want to question it because I had learned to never question what you learn in school. I was afraid of going to hell and believed I was evil for having any sexual thoughts. Funny thing is, my parents are not fundie at all. My dad doesn't even talk about religion, and my mom's the "Gospels are the only books that count" type. I am pretty baffled as to how I could have been so stupid.

My attitude was basically. "I know it's not evil or wrong, but God says otherwise. I have to do what he says."

[Old Viking]

Not to get something started here, but I fail to see where the question makes any sense.

[Barbarella]

What I don't get is why SOME Liberal, Progressive-types make the switch to repressive Far-Right Frummer. *shudder*

[Sigmaleph]

Fundamentalism is one of the most depressing world views you can have.  I mean, the very basis of the faith is that everyone is so rotten and sinful that only by being a born again Christian can one escape eternal punishment.

If I had to guess, I'd say this is about as relevant a critique of fundamentalism as "But the atheist worldview has a cold and uncaring universe where there is no meaning or justice!"

Which is to say: from the outside, sure, those are the things that stand out and that one would think depressing . But much like I don't lie awake at night worrying about how the universe doesn't have a special place for me in its heart, I assume most fundamentalists don't stress over the idea that we are all born sinners. I don't worry about the universe not having an objective purpose for me because I have come to terms with it; On reflection I realise objective purpose imposed by an outside agent doesn't really matter as much as the subjective meaning I can derive from life. Analogously, I imagine people who believe we are all born sinners come to term with it pretty much immediately because their religion is built around the premise that this is all forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus, and so on and so forth.

Just go on a site like ExChristian.net and you'll find very few, if any people who would be happy to go back believing again.

Probably true, but you have to take into account selection bias. People who leave a religion are usually the sort of people for whom the standard justifications don't work, so naturally they leave and are happier as non-believers (or part of a different religion). They are not representative of the majority of the religion, for whom the standard justifications are enough. You'd probably find something similar among former atheists who become religious.

That said, some of the justifications apologists use are so insane, so illogical, and so desperate that I wonder if some of these people are afraid of losing their beliefs.  This is what I fail to understand.  People are not only clinging to harmful beliefs, but going out of their way to justify why they're true.  Why??

I have a few theories.  Maybe they're afraid of having to change their entire world view, maybe they have fond memories despite the horrific beliefs, maybe there's social barriers encouraging group think, or maybe some are just sadistic assholes who relish at the thought of people burning in hell.  I don't know.

This is business as usual for human cognition. People are by nature very much averse to changing their mind, be it on religion, politics, science or anything else. Doubly so for anything that we form a strong attachment to and build an identity around.

[Star Cluster]

I've been of the opinion for quite some time that a great many of religious people don't really believe what they claim to believe.  They're putting up a good front and trying to "hedge their bets", so to speak, and fool others, including their god, into thinking they are living a good, "Christian" life when in reality, they are doing the very things they rail against all the time.  How many ministers, even, do we see that are caught participating in such "sinful" activities as drinking, extra-marital (some homosexual) affairs, gambling, etc.   

I've seen this type of behavior all my life from those who proclaim to be saved and righteous.  They act as if they think that if they do these things in private, their god, along with everyone else, won't know, so they can get away with it.  But this goes against the very tenets of their religion, which indicates a deep rooted disconnect with their what they claim to believe. 

[Nemo]

As a former Christian fundamentalist (though never a fundy), I think I might be able to shed some light on this.

God is perfect. You are not. From your birth, you were a corrupted, wretched piece of trash. How. Dare. You? You deserve to suffer. You deserve pain. And nobody inflicts pain and suffering better than God does.

But there's good news. God loves you. (I think I've made my point by now).

I sincerely hope the mentality I described does not strike any chords with some people, because it is very similar to the mentality many abuse victims develop. They allow themselves to be torn down to the point where they will accept any abuse, because hey, the abuser loves them. And if they didn't have the abuser's love, they would be nothing. The thought that the abuser demonstrates the exact opposite of love is often rationalized away. It's no coincidence that whenever someone becomes a fundamentalist/fundy, there's a good chance they were at some low point in their lives, whether financially, socially, or emotionally.

It was never really like that for me. I've had some low points. Arguably, I'm in one now. But when it began, I was in the middle of the skepticism which would lead me towards atheism. I almost wished I could believe the prayers I once said. In any case, I was a fundamentalist for most of my life because I was raised that way. God tortured people because he just had to and I accepted that. On some level, hearing creationist arguments made me cringe, but Jesus spoke of Adam, so I had to believe it. I couldn't muster the same disgust for homosexuals that I could for an axe murderer, but Jesus had the power of Hell, not me, so he was morally right, not me. I suspect that quite a few people who fit the label of fundamentalist, if they really thought about the implications of their own religion, might become very uncomfortable with it.

[Witchyjoshy]

I envy you.  I was a fundie growing up.  You hit the nail on the head, though, and it's a large part of why Christianity (and any condemnation cult out there, or whatever you would call them) is such a dangerous thing.

[rageaholic]

Not to get something started here, but I fail to see where the question makes any sense.

Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be if they are happy believing what they believe.  I couldn't imagine anyone being happy living such a restricted life (not to mention most of humanity burning in hell), but some might be sadistic enough to like this idea.

It's probably more complicated than that.  Nemo's post hits home.  Though I had attended a liberal church, there were some outspoken fundamentalists who I knew.  They kind of influenced me and I bought into the whole heaven/hell Satan/God thing.  As a kid, it made sense and I never had any reason to question it until I really started thinking about death and mortality.  That's what made me very susceptible to fundie scare tactics.  This is when I started realizing.

-How horrific and unjust the concept of hell really was.
-How all the restrictions of religion (particularly sex) made no sense when God made could have made new creation.
-The idea that if something isn't hurting anyone, there's no reason for it to be bad. 
-The idea that God could demand anything of his own creation.
-The many many flaws with the resurection myth. 
-That despite hearing how great and worthy of devotion God is, we NEVER see or hear from any God. 

Those were some big questions that should have made the whole thing crack, but since I was so afraid of death and hell (pascals fucking wager), I wanted to make absolute sure I was right.  And while apologetic arguments could never convince me it was true, it opened the door to the possibility of it being true, which made me hold onto it longer. 

To make a long story short, I ended up just accepting that I can never know for sure and that if Christianity were really true, there would be more proof.  Still doesn't stop Christians from trying to convince me that I had it all wrong (which was another thing that kept me sucked in so long). 

[Yla]

Hypothesis: it's special snowflake syndrome: "All the world is evil and doomed, but I'm/we're not, I'm/We're the only morally upright person/s." That's a powerful narrative and I can see people holding to it.

[Witchyjoshy]

Hypothesis: it's special snowflake syndrome: "All the world is evil and doomed, but I'm/we're not, I'm/We're the only morally upright person/s." That's a powerful narrative and I can see people holding to it.

There's evidence strongly supporting the fact that some fundies (even in some religions without a hell for some reason) do believe this, mostly because they tend to proclaim it at the top of their lungs.

I think we could even classify fundies into different categories depending on their motivations and reasons for being fundies.

[niam2023]

I have a suspicion that some of them are deeply closeted sadomasochists.

Like the guys who got angry at signs that said they're willing to sell to anyone, no discrimination. I think those people really want to sadistically destroy people's hopes, until only THEIR religion remains as a "path to hope".

There's also the nihilists, like Cheung, who absolutely disdain the physical world, and the "sanctified" Blood Knights like Damien, who probably long for a time when sword fights were the rule of the day, simply so he could get more "excitement" out of the occasion.

Some give me the impression they really would rather not believe what they do, but they feel they have no choice because they serve something that, in their interpretation, is basically a God of Hate whose opinion of you can shift in INSTANTS, but others I feel use their religion as a backbone for their nightmare fuel beliefs.

[Barbarella]

As a former Christian fundamentalist (though never a fundy), I think I might be able to shed some light on this.

God is perfect. You are not. From your birth, you were a corrupted, wretched piece of trash. How. Dare. You? You deserve to suffer. You deserve pain. And nobody inflicts pain and suffering better than God does.

But there's good news. God loves you. (I think I've made my point by now).

I sincerely hope the mentality I described does not strike any chords with some people, because it is very similar to the mentality many abuse victims develop. They allow themselves to be torn down to the point where they will accept any abuse, because hey, the abuser loves them. And if they didn't have the abuser's love, they would be nothing. The thought that the abuser demonstrates the exact opposite of love is often rationalized away. It's no coincidence that whenever someone becomes a fundamentalist/fundy, there's a good chance they were at some low point in their lives, whether financially, socially, or emotionally.

It was never really like that for me. I've had some low points. Arguably, I'm in one now. But when it began, I was in the middle of the skepticism which would lead me towards atheism. I almost wished I could believe the prayers I once said. In any case, I was a fundamentalist for most of my life because I was raised that way. God tortured people because he just had to and I accepted that. On some level, hearing creationist arguments made me cringe, but Jesus spoke of Adam, so I had to believe it. I couldn't muster the same disgust for homosexuals that I could for an axe murderer, but Jesus had the power of Hell, not me, so he was morally right, not me. I suspect that quite a few people who fit the label of fundamentalist, if they really thought about the implications of their own religion, might become very uncomfortable with it.

I'm just like you. Your thoughts about being a former frummer match mine....except the "turning atheist" part. In my case, I found alternate forms of spirituality. Now, I'm of the NeoPagan mindset. But man, I know how it was and I will never, ever, EVER turn that way again! It led to so much misery in my life. I still think Jesus is cool but my Christianity (if I were to be a Christian again) would be of the very Liberal, Esoteric, Gnostic kind. I will never touch ChristoFrum/Far-Right/Bible-Thumper thinking again!

I call myself a "ShaktaPagan Universalist".

Anyway, Frummerism is *shiver* awful!