Author Topic: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week  (Read 23148 times)

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Offline Vypernight

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Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« on: October 09, 2015, 03:51:14 pm »
Next week (I believe, Oct 13), we'll have the first Democratic debate, and personally my main focus is Sanders versus Clinton.  Now lately, Clinton has taken the stance of agreeing with Sanders on everything, figuring her name alone would boost her from there. 

My questions are, first, will this backfire if they ask Sanders questions first?  And second, what if they ask Clinton a question first and she says exactly what Sanders would say?  People might see it as his word against hers, and again, she has name-power.  So how could Sanders counter this?  And finally, do you think Sanders would take this approach?

I'm hoping Bernie wins the primary, but he's still got a ways to go, especially now that Clinton is pretending (at least to me) to agree with him on everything.

What do you think?
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 11:25:04 pm »
Sadly, I have to work, so I won't get to see the initial viewing. I've read some things saying that Sanders plans on bringing attention to that his support/opposition to whatever haven't changed, while Clinton's have wavered over the years. Also it's not just you, she is being a copycat, and it's sad to see her get to this point, and it's even sadder seeing the state of denial her supporters have about it.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2015, 11:39:54 am »
Should be interesting.  Think I'll check it out.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2015, 06:21:13 pm »
The only thing Hilary isn't copying off of Sanders right now is about gun control.  Because he's refusing to even take up that battle.  Which is kinda sad but not something that makes me lose interest in him. 

Ironbite-just wish he wouldn't go default on this issue and blame the mentally ill.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2015, 04:26:27 pm »
My Political Institutions professor has devoted Tuesday's period to watching the debate. I'll bring popcorn.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2015, 04:51:13 pm »
If you can, find Sriacha flavored popcorn.

Ironbite-so good.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2015, 05:53:35 pm »
Sadly, I have to work, so I won't get to see the initial viewing. I've read some things saying that Sanders plans on bringing attention to that his support/opposition to whatever haven't changed, while Clinton's have wavered over the years. Also it's not just you, she is being a copycat, and it's sad to see her get to this point, and it's even sadder seeing the state of denial her supporters have about it.

She's a politician who goes where the political winds blow. That doesn't really bother me; she'll get done what she cans. Obama is the same way, Bill Clinton was the same way, and they were both very good presidents. It's a debate about ideology or pragmatism. Bernie is ideologically pure (minus gun control, which he refuses to acknowledge), but Hillary has a better track record of getting things done, of forming coalitions to push through legislation. I don't see compromise or shifting positions as a vice, and instead I see her as a continuation of Obama or Bill Clinton: a democrat who will compromise on what she must, but push for what she can.

On the other hand, Bernie really doesn't have a track record of taking stances on things. He's content to vote as he will behind the scenes, but not put his neck on the line for a make-or-break issue. He doesn't have a moment like Bill Clinton, who pushed for tax reform (causing an electoral shift towards the GOP in 94). He doesn't have a moment like Hillary in pushing for health care reform. He doesn't have a position like Reid who opposed Bush the Stupid's judicial appointments. He doesn't have a moment of Obama in pushing for the Affordable Care Act. Yes, Hillary failed with health care reform in the 90's, but she took the issue and ran with it in a way I have not seen from Bernie. If the question is "who are you most likely to agree with on a variety of issues?" then my answer is Bernie. But, if it is "who do you think will be a better president, who will get things done, in particular on issues that you consider most important?" then my answer is Hillary. And that is why I unapologetically support her.
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2015, 08:00:07 pm »
So are you trying to start a fight with me or something?? Because I'm at the point I really don't care about "Democrats" that continue to suffer from McGovern Derangement syndrome, and are willing to trade economic populism for the continuation of neo-liberal economic polices. You reap want you sow.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2015, 08:14:42 pm »
So are you trying to start a fight with me or something?? Because I'm at the point I really don't care about "Democrats" that continue to suffer from McGovern Derangement syndrome, and are willing to trade economic populism for the continuation of neo-liberal economic polices. You reap want you sow.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just explaining how a differing personal value system can lead one to support a different candidate without being in denial about things.

And the McGovern Derangement line is a bit of mis-characterization of my point. Richard Neustadt, one of if not the leading authority on the office of the presidency, famously wrote that "presidential power is the power to persuade." By this, he meant that good presidents had to work with a variety of different actors, convincing each of them that their best interests align with the president's agenda. The actors are diverse and include legislators in Congress, policy organizations, lobbyists, the various departments, so on and so forth. My point is not that Bernie is too far to the left to be elected or to be good, but that he doesn't have the same track record of forming the coalitions necessary for the job. Hillary does. As did Bill. And Bill would certainly prove as an invaluable resource for Hillary would she become president.

Again, I'm not trying to instigate drama. I don't dislike Bernie: I think he's a great guy. I just happen to feel that Hillary would be a better president, and I think it's a tad incorrect to label her supporters as "in denial."

ETA: After thinking about it for a moment, I want to know why you think I am trying to start a fight with you. I got a similar response from a Bernie supporter in real life recently, and I kind of want to know where this is coming from. I know politics are important issues with serious, real-world implications, but I do not understand taking the issue so personally.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 08:24:26 pm by The_Queen »
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2015, 09:18:03 pm »
You are aware that the Clintons' are a reason for the working class dislike/hate for the Democrats, which is why they either don't show up or buy into the "angry white man" mentality. Hillary as a candidate just reinforces the belief that the Democrats no longer care about them, and as someone who is working class I see it every day, because all we what is some economic populism, and want to go back to being makers, not seeing a ton of shit  in the stores being made in countries where they pay slave wages of a whopping $1 a day. Sorry, I accused you of starting a fight, I've just have had my fair share of run ins with wannabe internet tough guys who repeat the whole "Vote for Hillary or else" while acting like the whole world will go to hell if we have Bernie as the nominee, coupled with the fact that politically, I find myself growing more and more away from the Democratic party.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 09:33:43 pm by nickiknack »

Offline Vypernight

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2015, 03:40:34 pm »
Not sure I trust Clinton, and while I'm sure she'd throw us a bone once in a blue moon if elected, I don't feel like her presidency would be as successful as her husband's.  That being said, I trust her a hell of a lot more than anyone running for the GOP.  But until we get to the point, Sanders is still my pick.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2015, 04:46:50 pm »
Same here. If she wins the candidacy, I'll choke back the cringe and vote for her.
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 05:11:00 pm »
Same here. If she wins the candidacy, I'll choke back the cringe and vote for her.

If Clinton is the nominee, chances are I'm voting third party. I can endure a Republican-run country to send a message to the Democratic leadership that I don't approve of their plutocratic tendencies.

I mean, sure, I'd vote for Clinton if she suddenly decided to oppose the corporate agenda, but if it ever gets to what mellenORL is describing I'm definitely voting third party.
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2015, 05:51:12 pm »
At this point I can't choke back cringe, I was at a point that I was ready to change my party affiliation at my utter disgust of how right the Democrats have shifted, the only thing keeping me from changing is the upcoming primary. I'm sorry if I come off as a "kook" or a bit of a purest(which I'm not, I'm more pragmatic than I let on) I'm just sick of the lack of economic populism in the party, and the adoption of neo-liberal economic polices that just screws over the working class even more. And someone born, raised, and lives in FDR's backyard(I'm literally a 10-20 minute drive from his estate/museum), and then went to a "Hippie college"(SUNY New Paltz) which bent me over more to the Left,I feel economic populism should have a place in the party, and I've seen it just been thrown by the way side by the establishment. I was thinking of possibly joining the Working Families Party(it's a small minor party which usually endorses progressives, though I not sure now given that the last election they decided to back the neo-liberal Cuomo in favor of the Green Party's Howie Hawkins(who I voted for, for Governor)) the Green Party, or just remain non affiliated. I'll either vote for Jill Stein, or write in some bs just for shits and giggles if Hillary gets the nom.

Also I'm really sorry for the political rants, it's just that as a progressive I no longer see myself having a place to call home within the Democratic Party
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:56:04 pm by nickiknack »

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2015, 06:49:22 pm »
This whole post is not directed at the primaries, but at posters who stated that they would have hesitations about voting for Hillary in the general election, should she get that far. Again, this is NOT about Bernie vs. Hillary, but the hypothetical Hillary vs. GOP.

I think that the criticisms of Hillary being corporate are overblown, and that history may illuminate what exactly I mean. In 2008, Obama was a relatively unknown candidate who, while running for office, opposed Guantanamo, opposed the Patriot Act, supported universal health care, supported raising taxes on the wealthy, and initially opposed the war in Iraq. Then he got elected, and he shifted from the idealist to the pragmatist and sought to get done what he could, compromising on what he had to compromise on to get health care reform, and took the stances that he had to take. He did none of those things, and actually appointed many people from Wall Street to be his political advisers. Even when attempting to push through the Affordable Care Act, he removed the public option before it could substantively be debated. In 2008, I supported Obama in large part because I felt like he was the candidate that was closest to me on the political spectrum.

And in hindsight, I was wrong to support him then for his idealism and his "consistency." However, I feel that his shift from his ideological purity worked out for the best, and I think history will remember Obama favorably. In large part due to Obamacare, America has expanded coverage, reduced health care costs, forced insurers to provide a meaningful essential benefits package, regulated health insurers, reduced the number of people declaring bankruptcy due to health care costs, and prevented insurers from capping lifetime limits or dropping people due to "pre-existing conditions." Is the bill perfect? Fuck no. The individual mandate forces people to buy insurance, thus making the companies money. But it is without a doubt better than its predecessor, and if Obama reached further, we probably would not have gotten what we did.

The point of this being that just because she is corporate shouldn't be the sole criteria of why you should not vote for her. Obama proved to be corporate, but effective: Lily Ledbetter fair pay act, health care reform, ending the war in Iraq, Iran Nuclear Deal, repeal of DADT, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire, the stimulus bill, reducing the deficit by over 60%, reduced unemployment from double digits to I believe 5.8% at the moment, Matthew Shepard Hate Crime Act, executive order requiring hospitals allow same-sex partners visitation rights, greatly improved our international relations, increased our utilization of renewable energy, and most importantly put Sotomayor and Kagan on the Supreme Court. If anyone believes that a republican president would have achieved half of this, then they are pants on head stupid. My only point is that, like Obama, Hillary shouldn't be written off because she is perceived as corporate, and we shouldn't vote third-party and risk giving the GOP the election because Hillary isn't "perfect." I feel like, at worst, Hillary would be another four years of Obama, and quite frankly, I would be more than happy with such a result [Edit to clarify: as opposed to the possibility of Bush the Boring, Rubio, or Huckabee in the white house].

As an aside, I understand Nicki's concern for neoliberal policies. However, domestically, Obama and Hillary adhere to more Keynesian economics. In the international scene, they do tend to follow neo-liberalism and free trade. I have to disagree with Nicki on the effect of these policies on the american workforce (they actually benefit the more advanced nations at the expense of poorer nations). Nonetheless, I still disagree with these policies because they have an effect of impoverishing other nations at our expense. I tried to keep this vague to address your concerns, while not get too in-depth for a tangential argument (which would probably be better taken up in another thread).

And, in closing, AGAIN, this is not about Bernie vs. Hillary, but Hillary in the general election should she make it that far.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 06:56:02 pm by The_Queen »
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