Author Topic: The Abortion Issue  (Read 35456 times)

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2012, 03:05:39 am »
I think the Terri Schaivo case is good to look at here, because it provides another example where brain activity is used in determining one's status as a person, or whether someone has a right to life. I agree with others who said that consciousness of some sort (simple consciousness? free will?) would be ideal in defining personhood, but unfortunately it's not that easy. My dad's been saying this for awhile, actually, but it's such an uncomfortable, gray topic that even he's unsure of just how to implement anything along these lines.
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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2012, 03:16:06 am »
For me, I actually think a women's control over her body trumps whatever personhood the kid may or may not have. Even if it means killing someone, a person has the right to decide whether or not they want their body to be used to support someone else. Of course, people have the right to not be killed, but they don't have the right to use someone else's body against their will, even if it means death.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 07:18:15 am »
...but they don't have the right to use someone else's body against their will, even if it means death.

It's hard for me to agree with that whole heartedly in cases where the sex was consensual.
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Offline rosenewock21

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 07:29:49 am »
...but they don't have the right to use someone else's body against their will, even if it means death.

It's hard for me to agree with that whole heartedly in cases where the sex was consensual.

Yes, but where do you draw the line? A young couple in high school have a condom break, carrying to term means she might miss a lot of school or have to drop out entirely. If her grades plummet or she drops out, even if she gives the child up for adoption, that baby has affected the rest of her life in a negative way.

How about someone who makes too much money for government assistance but not enough to afford insurance, let alone to raise a child? Even if they adopt it out, they're left swamped in medical bills.

How about someone who forgot to take her pill because she had a busy morning? She's on other medications that will most likely harm the fetus. Should she be forced to carry to term?

How about if they discover the fetus has deformities that will make quality of life almost non-existent? The sex that created it was consensual, after all.

Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide?
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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 07:39:07 am »
Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide?

I don't know.  That's the real problem with the subject of abortions, no matter what way you go someone (or something) will lose.
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Offline Askold

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 08:00:47 am »
Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide?

I don't know.  That's the real problem with the subject of abortions, no matter what way you go someone (or something) will lose.

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 08:04:02 am »
...but they don't have the right to use someone else's body against their will, even if it means death.

It's hard for me to agree with that whole heartedly in cases where the sex was consensual.

I still think bodily sovereignty trumps all, even if the conception is a result of ignorance, failed contraception or even stupidity (like fucking without a condom).

Offline Sylvana

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 08:36:45 am »
Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide?

I don't know.  That's the real problem with the subject of abortions, no matter what way you go someone (or something) will lose.

That is one of the main problems of the matter. The short story is that in the abortion debate regardless of which side 'Wins' there will be serious losers all round. In short with abortion there are only losers and the best course of action is the one that results in the least losers. Hence the main choice to let the woman decide. Minimal impact to her life with the unfortunate consequence of the loss of life of a potential person.

Game theory can actually be used to map out the possibilities and options. Everything from entropic pregnancy, to poor living conditions after birth can be plotted. Some outcomes can be considered minor wins, but their chance of happening is so small that the logical choice is to choose the option which is the one you can control that results in the least lost overall. (Sorry if its an overly mathematical and analytical way of looking at it, but this is the first time I have even looked at it like this.)

I also agree that bodily sovereignty trumps the rights of another. After all it is legal to kill another fully grown adult in the course of protecting ones own life. While in most cases a pregnancy isn't a risk to ones life, it is still a gross violation of one right to their own body (IF the fetus is to be considered an individual person with rights)

Offline sandman

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2012, 08:55:59 am »

On last note, the problem with the pro-life stance is that it is not about the child, person-hood, health, murder or religion. It is purely about being anti-women. Pro-lifers don't give a damn about the fetus, they sure as hell don't give a damn after its born and they care even less about the woman. They would rather both die than one be saved, even if that one is the fetus. It is all about control and punishing women. What is more, if they find themselves inconveniently pregnant, they will be the first in line at the clinic for an abortion (normally so they don't get seen by their fellow protestors.)

Syl, I think that defining the "pro-life" activists as all being anti-woman, as being primarily interested in controlling and punishing women is inaccurate. While I'm sure there may be some misogynist assholes out there who are thinking along those lines, the vast majority of pro-lifers I know and have met seem to be genuinely concerned about the life of what they consider to be a child.

True, they focus on that "child" so much that many of them utterly lose sight of the fact that there is a woman involved, too. I think a lot of the hateful and harsh language directed at women from the pro-life movement is not motivated by any kind of misogyny, but rather by anger and frustration. They honestly see women seeking abortions as people attempting to murder children, and this makes them understandably angry. I don't agree with their emotional position, but I understand why they feel the way they do.

I think it is dangerous to start thinking of the other side of the issue as "evil" or motivated by hatred or misogyny.  It renders them into a faceless, frothing mob, and they aren't. They are people who have arrived at a radically different emotional and logical conclusion to a very contentious issue, the vast majority of them for what they believe to be good, honorable reasons. To portray them all as some kind of single-minded, malevolent villains is not helpful. We don't need WWII style demonizing propaganda. It is not constructive to take the worst possible example from the opposition and extrapolate that image out to include them all.

Do assholes out to punish women exist in the "pro-life" movement? Absolutely. Are they the majority, the norm? Absolutely not. Many pro-lifers are active in lobbying for additional services and resources for struggling new mothers. I was having a conversation with a pro-life organizer here in NE Ohio last year (yes, we pro-choicers can, in fact, have conversations with them) and she expressed to me that one of the most difficult and frustrating things about the pro-life cause is that in order to gain any kind of political influence, they have had to ally themselves with fiscal conservatives, whose primary motivation in being pro-life often seems to be simply de-funding Planned Parenthood to cut spending. These fiscal conservatives (almost universally Republicans) have even less interest in extending social supports for new mothers than they do supporting reproductive health issues. The pro-life movement has made a Devil's Deal, entering into a political alliance with the very people least likely to actually support the long term viability of their moral position.

Your average pro-lifer believes in their souls that abortion murders a child. They aren't out to punish women, or to screw over brown people, or any of the other theories about their motives. Pure and simply they are desperately trying to stop what they consider to be industrialized murder on a Holocaust scale. They're wrong, but that's what they believe. We will never get anywhere in this issue until we all, both sides, strive to understand the other. It's unfortunate that the pro-life side is utterly unwilling to do this. We on the pro-choice side can not afford to sink to that level.
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 09:12:01 am »
Your average pro-lifer believes in their souls that abortion murders a child. They aren't out to punish women, or to screw over brown people, or any of the other theories about their motives. Pure and simply they are desperately trying to stop what they consider to be industrialized murder on a Holocaust scale. They're wrong, but that's what they believe. We will never get anywhere in this issue until we all, both sides, strive to understand the other. It's unfortunate that the pro-life side is utterly unwilling to do this. We on the pro-choice side can not afford to sink to that level.

I understand your point and your concern, however let me validate my position a little. Most pro-life people accept that in the event of an entropic pregnancy or in general when the health of the woman is at stake an abortion is necessary. The thing is, the moment they make any kind of abortion concession they are actually pro-choice because they are leaving an avenue of choice open for the woman. They can vehemently oppose abortions in other cases, but it still means they are pro-choice, for allowing there to be an option.

To me pro-lifers are the ones who refuse to allow anyone to have an abortion regardless of circumstance. The ones who ideologically believe that both the woman and fetus should die in a worst case scenario just to prevent the murder they perceive. The ideological stance of pro-life is that of no abortions ever to prevent murder.

For me I believe that everyone who is actually pro-choice is "pro-life" we all want people to live and have the best lives available to them, while realizing that sometimes difficult decisions need to be made that can result in the loss of a life. Unfortunately both "sides" of the issue have used names that complicate the issue for many who choose a side based on the name without really understanding the ideology involved in choosing pro-choice.

Offline sandman

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 09:16:44 am »
I understand you completely, Syl. I must admit that I have never met one of the "NO ABORTIONS, Even if both mother and fetus die!" people. I understand that they exist, but they seem to be on the extreme edges of the argument. Mostly coming at the issue from the "God's Will" point of view, the same idiotic point of view that leads certain fringe sects of Christianity to deny any medical treatment aside from prayer. I must admit, I find that position to be verging on mental illness.
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Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 09:27:07 am »
I understand you completely, Syl. I must admit that I have never met one of the "NO ABORTIONS, Even if both mother and fetus die!" people. I understand that they exist, but they seem to be on the extreme edges of the argument. Mostly coming at the issue from the "God's Will" point of view, the same idiotic point of view that leads certain fringe sects of Christianity to deny any medical treatment aside from prayer. I must admit, I find that position to be verging on mental illness.

Not really. Many of the higher-up laypeople in my church believe that all abortion is wrong, under all circumstances. The idea that no one should have abortions because "there's always another way" is not a fringe view. Many pro-lifers honestly believe that everything - everything - is better than abortion. It doesn't matter if the child has a terrible life, only that it has life to begin with. And they honestly don't understand how people could choose abortion when there are so many other "options."

They use the same argument as the argument against universal health care: some people honestly believe that, if you're sick enough, you should go to the doctor, regardless of how expensive it is. And if you don't because you can't get time off work or can't afford it, and you die, well, it was your choice not to go to the doctor, wasn't it? They don't see that there was no choice.

You have to remember that they're operating from the idea that all sin is a choice. That it's better to give up everything than to sin, even your life, because martyrdom is the best way to get into God's good books. Living a terrible life in the name of God is a good thing, and they can't see why anyone else wouldn't follow them.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:29:17 am by Smurfette Principle »

Offline sandman

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 09:34:33 am »
I can see how that would arise. I just have never met anyone who took that extreme of a position. Then again, when I think about it, I probably do know people who would take that position, I guess I have just been instinctively savvy enough to realize that I should never broach the subject around them. While I understand the average pro-lifer's position, I must admit that this whole "If God Wants You To Live, Then You'll Live, And If He Wants You To Die, Then You'll Die" approach baffles me.

But then again, I've never had the personality that easily and willingly surrenders all judgment and decisions to another. My military record will back that up.

I still don't believe that the primary motivation of pro-lifer's is to punish women, though. My experiences simply don't bear that conclusion out.
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Offline TenfoldMaquette

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 09:34:48 am »
If the fetus can live and thrive independent of the womb, it can be called a person.

Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: The Abortion Issue
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 09:41:52 am »
I still don't believe that the primary motivation of pro-lifer's is to punish women, though. My experiences simply don't bear that conclusion out.

They may not be doing it deliberately, but when your policy involves forcing women to be pregnant if they don't want to, saying that their lives are worth less than that of a fetus, acting as if they don't know what they want to do with their bodies, and using deceit and scare tactics to prevent them from making the choices they want, then you're misogynistic. Just because they might not be aware of it doesn't make it any less real.