Author Topic: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?  (Read 12072 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« on: August 03, 2013, 02:07:01 am »
I've been trying to look for an answer but I can't find it.

Progressives must be doing something wrong. I don't understand. With the exception of the LGBT-rights front, we seem to be not getting any real headway against the Far-Right. We protest & vote and do everything we can but we come up short. We failed the Wisconsin recall despite having resounding support. Women are losing the right to chose. The unjust whom Karma does not favor keep winning undeserved victories. Why? We're the smarter ones, the intellectuals, the educated, the reasonable & rational. We should be able to see the Tealiban's schemes right away, but we don't. We should be able to frame every narrative, but don't. We can read & study the Far-Right's strategies & implement them for our gain, but we don't.

I just want to know, what the heck is wrong with Liberalism in this country?! Are we missing something? How can such intelligent socially-conscious & educated people fail so badly? Corporate money can only explain so much!

I want to see victories! BIG VICTORIES! I want to see Liberalism/Progressivism take the US by storm! I want to see Progressives thwart all of the Regressive's schemes! I want to see Progressive corporations raise money & put the Far-Right down like a rabid dog. I want the Occupy Protests to accomplish something! I want Democrats with spines! I want True Liberals to run for Democratic office!

I don't understand it. The Right-Wingers always have a way to undermine Progress. From the social movements of the 60's to the ERA to Occupy to the Wisconsin Recall.

Progressives need to regroup & really examine themselves. We have the tools & ideas but we have a hard time implementing them.

Does anyone have any theories? Am I missing something?

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 02:18:09 am »
It's not what progressive people are doing wrong so much as it is what the people who oppose them are doing right.

Unsurprisingly those with wealth and power want to keep it-and they'll be just as conniving and cunning at holding that wealth and power as they were obtaining it in the first place!

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 02:48:42 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on. Also, I think, American liberals seem to be just ineffective at selling their ideas, while American conservatives are extremely effective. Compare Barack Obama to Ronald Reagan: imagine if Reagan had assassinated an Osama bin Laden metaphor. That would be how we would remember his presidency. With Obama, we remember bullshit like an attack on an embassy. George Bush managed to stifle all debate for over a year; no Democrat could ever achieve that, regardless of circumstances. I'm not sure why this is, but it is a severe problem and it must be addressed. People are more likely to believe lies out of a Republican's mouth than the truth from a Democrat. Fix.

Problem two: the US system is actually written in a way that tends to prevent progressive change. This is partly because the Republicans have effective party loyalty, but the Democrats do not. While that is true, Liberals can't really win. When Republicans initiate some unbelievably radical change- so, the invasion of Iraq- all Republicans vote aye, not enough Democrats vote nay and the filibuster is never considered. How many major, controversial laws were passed by the Bush administration- and that's one of the most incompetent governments in a generation? A dozen? Two? The filibuster is not a weapon against regressive change. But think of the effect against Obama. Even extremely uncontroversial policy everyone agrees with- say, Obamacare- takes months or years to pass, chewing up all other time. The result? Obama has one major legislative reform, has not rolled back any of Bush's crap, and faces the repeal of that single reform if the party loses.

Now how is the system written wrong?
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 02:56:17 am »
It's not what progressive people are doing wrong so much as it is what the people who oppose them are doing right.

Unsurprisingly those with wealth and power want to keep it-and they'll be just as conniving and cunning at holding that wealth and power as they were obtaining it in the first place!

This is pretty much why I've become a cynic.

No, seriously, I live with dogs in a trash bin and everything.
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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 03:01:59 am »
The unjust whom Karma does not favor keep winning undeserved victories. Why? We're the smarter ones, the intellectuals, the educated, the reasonable & rational.
The former sentence rather heavily contradicts the latter, funnily enough.

That said, if you feel so strongly about this, actually try getting involved in politics. Do something yourself rather than demanding everyone else do it for you. Even just writing angry letters to anyone in even a rather middling position of power. Hell, anything would be more productive than repeating the same preachy nonsense over and over again on some tiny internet forum that all of maybe 30-40 people have even heard of, much less care about.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 03:23:56 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on. Also, I think, American liberals seem to be just ineffective at selling their ideas, while American conservatives are extremely effective. Compare Barack Obama to Ronald Reagan: imagine if Reagan had assassinated an Osama bin Laden metaphor. That would be how we would remember his presidency. With Obama, we remember bullshit like an attack on an embassy. George Bush managed to stifle all debate for over a year; no Democrat could ever achieve that, regardless of circumstances. I'm not sure why this is, but it is a severe problem and it must be addressed. People are more likely to believe lies out of a Republican's mouth than the truth from a Democrat. Fix.

Problem two: the US system is actually written in a way that tends to prevent progressive change. This is partly because the Republicans have effective party loyalty, but the Democrats do not. While that is true, Liberals can't really win. When Republicans initiate some unbelievably radical change- so, the invasion of Iraq- all Republicans vote aye, not enough Democrats vote nay and the filibuster is never considered. How many major, controversial laws were passed by the Bush administration- and that's one of the most incompetent governments in a generation? A dozen? Two? The filibuster is not a weapon against regressive change. But think of the effect against Obama. Even extremely uncontroversial policy everyone agrees with- say, Obamacare- takes months or years to pass, chewing up all other time. The result? Obama has one major legislative reform, has not rolled back any of Bush's crap, and faces the repeal of that single reform if the party loses.

Now how is the system written wrong?

So are you saying we should say "nay" more & use more filibusters? That we're wishy washy wimps?

And how do you suppose we change all this.

Sometimes I do wonder if a lot of Democrats are just fakers who talk Progressiveness but do the opposite. Perhaps that explains the spinelessness.

There's got to be an answer to this. We need a strategy. We need to be as shrewd & devious as they are (within ethical reason).

Every problem has an answer. We can solve this. We can win the war. Perhaps we are winning. Perhaps 2014 will be the turning point. The Far-Right is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot everyday. Also, it took a long time for the Tealiban to take control so it should take time to take them down. The present Progressive Movement is just starting.

I just have to relax & be patient. Heck, the Kochs are geezers. They'll soon croak & leave a power-vacuum. There may be infighting. Same goes for Ailes, Murdoch, etc. Heck, I posted a topic called "There's Hope For The USA" or something like that.

The future is with the young people, the vast majority whom are disgusted with these Far-Right freaks!

« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 03:35:49 am by SpukiKitty »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 03:54:32 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on. Also, I think, American liberals seem to be just ineffective at selling their ideas, while American conservatives are extremely effective. Compare Barack Obama to Ronald Reagan: imagine if Reagan had assassinated an Osama bin Laden metaphor. That would be how we would remember his presidency. With Obama, we remember bullshit like an attack on an embassy. George Bush managed to stifle all debate for over a year; no Democrat could ever achieve that, regardless of circumstances. I'm not sure why this is, but it is a severe problem and it must be addressed. People are more likely to believe lies out of a Republican's mouth than the truth from a Democrat. Fix.

Problem two: the US system is actually written in a way that tends to prevent progressive change. This is partly because the Republicans have effective party loyalty, but the Democrats do not. While that is true, Liberals can't really win. When Republicans initiate some unbelievably radical change- so, the invasion of Iraq- all Republicans vote aye, not enough Democrats vote nay and the filibuster is never considered. How many major, controversial laws were passed by the Bush administration- and that's one of the most incompetent governments in a generation? A dozen? Two? The filibuster is not a weapon against regressive change. But think of the effect against Obama. Even extremely uncontroversial policy everyone agrees with- say, Obamacare- takes months or years to pass, chewing up all other time. The result? Obama has one major legislative reform, has not rolled back any of Bush's crap, and faces the repeal of that single reform if the party loses.

Now how is the system written wrong?

So are you saying we should say "nay" more & use more filibusters? That we're wishy washy wimps?

It's not so much that Democrats are wimps, though I agree that's a problem. Clearly, Americans hate moderates. If you look like the most reasonable guy in the room, you're not respected for it, you're despised. And rightly so. Democrats should stand up for what they believe in, and if they don't believe it, why are they in the party? Set out a clear, consistent party platform- a list of promises- and then stick to it. And defend it. That's what Republicans do with their hoseshit, and people respect them for it.

No, what I meant what that there's no strong party loyalty. If you fuck the party, there are no consequences. Historically that's the way things go, but that's no longer how the Republicans work. So they consistently kick Democrats' arses when they should barely exist.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Vypernight

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 05:00:23 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on.

The irony is the keep blasting the 'liberal media.'
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 05:23:03 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on.

The irony is the keep blasting the 'liberal media.'

Blasting at phantoms is a well heeled conservative strategy that works! Be it the "war on drugs", the nonexistent link between gay marriage and pederasty or Obama's birth certificate it doesn't matter how illusory the bogeyman is-if you can scare the squares with it they'll vote for you.

Just look at my country, in Australia we are staring down the barrel of the end of the mining boom and the inevitability of the same recession that has hit hard everywhere else and all both parties are talking about on the eve of this election is getting tougher on the poor bastards who risk their lives getting on leaky boats trying to escape shitholes in Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and Burma.

Because getting tough on pathetic or nonexistent bogeymen is easier than actually solving problems!

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 05:28:00 am »
Two problems, one substantive, one propaganda.

Since the 1980s liberals in the Anglo world have been less effective at propaganda. This is partly because media reportage reflects media interests, which are usually conservative. This manifests both in news pages- choice of issues to cover, slant, sources, recurring tropes and so on.

The irony is the keep blasting the 'liberal media.'

Absolutely nobody does this more than that very media.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Feral Dog

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 06:25:36 am »
One other especially insidious thing- take a look at a lot of conservative turds given a liberal-ish sugar-coat in mass media.

Anyone trying to point out the horrible underlying message in movies or shows people watch every day gets eye-rolls, even if they are professionals and not the Tumblr-SJWs.

It's to the point where films that I personally have heard described as 'liberal garbage': 300, Knocked Up, Juno, Twilight (not even kidding...), and Red Dawn (HOW??)
... despite none of these films doing anything to advance or portray liberal ideals, aside from Knocked Up being okay with marijuana and positively portraying an enviable maternity leave (by US standards) for the female protagonist.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 07:12:45 am »
At some stage liberal just means bad.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline dietcokewithlemon

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 09:17:34 am »
Who says progressives are losing? The only people who say that are the same die hard conservatives who deny climate change in the same hysterical tones that betray their own deep rooted fear of defeat. I assume you are under 30? As a middle aged man I can tell you WE ARE WINNING THE CULTURE WAR!!! Progress is slow and the bigots and morons drag their heels at every opportunity but we are slowly defeating them from within. We are educating their children.... bwhah hah hah hah.

I am British, not American, but I remember the 70s/80s when the world was very different - and back then we thought we lived in a glorious liberal age. I remember the days when EVERYTHING closed on a sunday, when racism, sexism and homophobia were completely acceptable and NO ONE took issue with it. When I was a child the Black and White Minstrel Show was still on tv ( don't ask ). Prayer at school was 'optional' but you had to request to leave the room and were made to stand outside in the corridor silently.

There are lot of shocking things that happen in the world but these days we are aware of it. In the Good Ol' Days a lot of stuff was just swept under the carpet.

Teenage pregnancy - pack the girl off to another town for while and give the kid up secretly

Drugs - didn't happen honest

Gays - not in our town

Rape - only bad girls go out alone

etc...

As shocking as it sounds - the world is getting better. If we can just get round to fixing climate change and overpopulation before we destroy ourselves then the human race might stand a chance.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 10:33:57 am »
Who says progressives are losing? The only people who say that are the same die hard conservatives who deny climate change in the same hysterical tones that betray their own deep rooted fear of defeat. I assume you are under 30? As a middle aged man I can tell you WE ARE WINNING THE CULTURE WAR!!! Progress is slow and the bigots and morons drag their heels at every opportunity but we are slowly defeating them from within. We are educating their children.... bwhah hah hah hah.

I am British, not American, but I remember the 70s/80s when the world was very different - and back then we thought we lived in a glorious liberal age. I remember the days when EVERYTHING closed on a sunday, when racism, sexism and homophobia were completely acceptable and NO ONE took issue with it. When I was a child the Black and White Minstrel Show was still on tv ( don't ask ). Prayer at school was 'optional' but you had to request to leave the room and were made to stand outside in the corridor silently.

There are lot of shocking things that happen in the world but these days we are aware of it. In the Good Ol' Days a lot of stuff was just swept under the carpet.

Teenage pregnancy - pack the girl off to another town for while and give the kid up secretly

Drugs - didn't happen honest

Gays - not in our town

Rape - only bad girls go out alone

etc...

As shocking as it sounds - the world is getting better. If we can just get round to fixing climate change and overpopulation before we destroy ourselves then the human race might stand a chance.

I agree with you 100%! I started this thread when I was in a bit of a funk. You'll notice on this page, I kinda admitted as such. No doubt we are winning the culture war! I just have to be patient. Change the culture first and then the political scene will follow. That recall jazz in Wisconsin is old news, anyway. People are still valiantly fighting. Besides, I've said many times that the big bigot/fundie/right-wing backlashes all over the Earth are a sign we're winning because they are zits getting medicated (which get worse at first) and we are the zit cream. We're bringing the jerks out in the open.

Since each generation is more progressive than the next, the Walkers, Scotts, Kochs, Arpaios, Ailes, Murdochs, Alitos, Thomases, etc. will all meet the Maker and decent "new blood" will take over.

I also feel that much of the Democrat's job performance is dependent upon pressure from constituents. We must hold their feet to the fire & tell them to grow some iron gonads! Bug them enough out of spinelessness & they'll fight! Also, quit voting for Blue Dogs! Those guys are moles! GOP in Democratic clothing!


Offline m52nickerson

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Re: American Progressives - What Are We Doing Wrong?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 10:50:31 am »
Progressives are winning, for the most part.  It is just that things are going slow right now.  Part of that is because the baby boomer generation is having its last gasps of power.  We already see that a good number of GOP members have accepted things like gay marriage and immigration reform.

The area's where progressives are losing are in the abortion debate and when it comes to unions.  Abortions, well no one is a fan of abortions.  So the women's right argument can be a tough one when the potential life of child is on the line.  Unions, well unions have made some mistakes and even some progressives see that they have harmed some of the industries they are in.  I'm not saying unions are bad, but they can make bad decisions.
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