Author Topic: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities  (Read 20435 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« on: August 23, 2015, 07:00:17 pm »
I only recently found out about this.  I decided to boycott Reddit in protest of the new direction the site was taking (turns out removing Chairwoman Pao didn't really change anything), and then I went on vacation.  But on August 5, Reddit banned notoriously racist subreddit CoonTown, and quarantined several other controversial communities.

And I'm not happy.  Don't get me wrong, CoonTown was fucking despicable, but this is setting off alarm bells.  Offensive bile like what the spewed is the canary in the coal mine.  There's a reason the ACLU defends the free speech rights of Neo-Nazis.  Aaron Swartz is spinning in his grave.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 08:00:02 pm »
Good for reddit, getting rid of the filth.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 08:10:01 pm »
Good for reddit, getting rid of the filth.

If they really wanted to get rid of the filth, they'd go after SRS.  Besides, CoonTown was essentially a containment board.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 08:12:27 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 09:58:08 pm »
A privately owned company chose to purge horrible people off its service after they drove off the only woman keeping them there? Surely, free speech is dead!
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 10:13:49 pm »
A privately owned company chose to purge horrible people off its service after they drove off the only woman keeping them there? Surely, free speech is dead!

If we don't believe in free speech for people we despise, then we don't believe in it at all.

And giving private companies the power to censor is really unwise.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 10:17:05 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 10:28:10 pm »
Look, I'm the biggest advocate of free speech for the people we dislike. I'm all for a broad interpretation of the term as going beyond just what the government can do.

But not even I will say that free speech is impeded by failure to give a platform. Private companies always had the power to say "You can't use my service to say that", the only difference is that reddit built a reputation as the place where everyone had a platform.

Which is dangerous, because if you build the place where everyone can talk uncensored, you are going to disproportionately attract the sort of people that nobody else likes. Precisely because nobody else likes them. And now your platform is full of assholes and it gets the reputation as "the place with all the assholes" and you don't want that, because if you can go anywhere else, why would you go to the place with all the assholes?

I think places where everyone can say their piece, not matter how horrifying, are valuable. But being that place has heavy costs (which incidentally is why FQA is not one of them). Reddit has the right to not be that place.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 11:16:49 pm »
Look, I'm the biggest advocate of free speech for the people we dislike. I'm all for a broad interpretation of the term as going beyond just what the government can do.

But not even I will say that free speech is impeded by failure to give a platform. Private companies always had the power to say "You can't use my service to say that", the only difference is that reddit built a reputation as the place where everyone had a platform.

Which is dangerous, because if you build the place where everyone can talk uncensored, you are going to disproportionately attract the sort of people that nobody else likes. Precisely because nobody else likes them. And now your platform is full of assholes and it gets the reputation as "the place with all the assholes" and you don't want that, because if you can go anywhere else, why would you go to the place with all the assholes?

I think places where everyone can say their piece, not matter how horrifying, are valuable. But being that place has heavy costs (which incidentally is why FQA is not one of them). Reddit has the right to not be that place.

But here's the question: where do you draw the line?  I have zero sympathies for the racist assholes at CoonTown.  I'm concerned because crackdowns on free speech never start with forms that are easy to defend.  They gradually build up to them.  If you'll remember, the Salem witch trials started with accusations against pariahs.  After their initial success, they started going after pillars of the community.  It may start with them banning racists, but where does it end?  The exact wording they used was "subreddits that exist solely to annoy other redditors".  Do you have any idea how much leeway that gives them?

Moreover, this sets a very dangerous precedent.  Imagine there's a swing to the far right.  Considering the resentment brewing against radflakes, it's entirely possible.  Now, all of a sudden, those same weapons can be used to silence social justice advocates, feminists, and anybody calling for economic reform.  This means there's pressure on Reddit to ban subreddits the new order dislikes.  Even if Reddit refuses to be bullied, what's to stop them from just taking it over?

And yes, free speech is impeded if you don't have a platform.  What good is the right to an attorney if you can't afford one?  The freedom to speak your mind is meaningless if you're impeded from getting your voice out.  Furthermore, in many cases, private entities don't do it because they made their own decisions.  They did it because they were pressured, sometimes with the use of physical intimidation: see the cases of university debates that were shut down by hordes of angry protesters.  Anyone who provides a free speech platform that allows voices to be heard by millions will be targeted and pressured into only allowing certain voices to be heard.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 11:18:44 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 12:31:12 pm »
UP, I can sort of get behind what you're saying. However, would my right to say whatever I want trump Sigma's right to run the site the way he sees fit? Because that's what you're implying.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 12:52:27 pm »
UP, I can sort of get behind what you're saying. However, would my right to say whatever I want trump Sigma's right to run the site the way he sees fit? Because that's what you're implying.

False equivalence.  The problem with your comparison is that Reddit was intended to be

a) user-run

and

b) a bastion of free speech.

Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 03:03:39 pm »
Yea, if you want to spout racist bile, you can just go to stormfront.

That being said I can see you being upset at the website going back on its words, although there's not much you can do about it. I never use reddit because it looks dumb

It's possible that keeping racist subforums would hurt them economically.

Also I think you're making a false equivalence/slippery slope fallacy. Racist rhetoric can inspire violence or other ways to break the law. Economic reform typically doesn't. And I probably won't shed a tear if the bile SJWs get censored in reddit as well.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 03:06:28 pm by Cataclysm »
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 05:38:41 pm »
Yea, if you want to spout racist bile, you can just go to stormfront.

That being said I can see you being upset at the website going back on its words, although there's not much you can do about it. I never use reddit because it looks dumb

It's possible that keeping racist subforums would hurt them economically.

Also I think you're making a false equivalence/slippery slope fallacy. Racist rhetoric can inspire violence or other ways to break the law. Economic reform typically doesn't. And I probably won't shed a tear if the bile SJWs get censored in reddit as well.

And now Reddit is banning BDSM-related subreddits.  You were saying?

Offline davedan

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 06:35:08 pm »
UP: Correct me if I'm wrong and I don't want to bring up the thing that shall not be named, but didn't you support boycotting media outlets who published things you didn't like?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 07:23:35 pm »
UP: Correct me if I'm wrong and I don't want to bring up the thing that shall not be named, but didn't you support boycotting media outlets who published things you didn't like?

It's because they were pushing agendas and publishing lies.  Journalism needs to be held to different standards than entertainment and the like.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 07:46:44 pm »
Long post, forgive me if I dissect it a bit.

But here's the question: where do you draw the line?

Me personally, or Reddit? I personally, qua administrator of FQA, draw the line at homophobia, transphobia, racism and sexism because I think making a safe space for that here would make it a pretty unpleasant place for the current users. (I draw other lines, like doxxing, for other reasons, but I guess you get the general meaning). In other places I draw the line elsewhere; in my personal blog, if I still used it, I would be happy to discuss pretty much anything, because I only have to worry about myself.

I have no idea where Reddit draws the line, presumably at the point where they think they can best balance attracting users with free speech and not repelling them with assholes.

I cannot draw the line for Reddit. I don't use it too much, and I don't know what they think the best niche to occupy is. I think it's a shame they can't be the ultimate free speech place they got a reputation for, even with all the assholes that attracted, but it's really not my decision to make in any way.

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I have zero sympathies for the racist assholes at CoonTown.  I'm concerned because crackdowns on free speech never start with forms that are easy to defend.  They gradually build up to them.

I agree! Hell, I've made this speech before, you don't have to sell me on the "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels" line. It's not the moral character of coontown that concerns me.

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It may start with them banning racists, but where does it end?  The exact wording they used was "subreddits that exist solely to annoy other redditors".  Do you have any idea how much leeway that gives them?

A fair amount, in the "banning subreddits" area. Almost none beyond.

The absolute worst case scenario is that Reddit bans every subreddit and stops existing. And that will be sad, but it's not a witch burning. There really isn't much a path from "your subreddit no longer exists" to "and now it is legal to burn you for witchcraft".

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Moreover, this sets a very dangerous precedent.  Imagine there's a swing to the far right.  Considering the resentment brewing against radflakes, it's entirely possible.  Now, all of a sudden, those same weapons can be used to silence social justice advocates, feminists, and anybody calling for economic reform.  This means there's pressure on Reddit to ban subreddits the new order dislikes.  Even if Reddit refuses to be bullied, what's to stop them from just taking it over?

Suppose you are right, and in fact this happens, Reddit is entirely opposed to social justice and feminism and adorable puppies. OK. What now? Does Tumblr cease to exist? Does Wordpress? Does nobody now have an incentive to just build their own website to fill the obvious vacuum left?

Before free speech collapses for lack of platforms you need to go way, waaaay beyond just Reddit.

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And yes, free speech is impeded if you don't have a platform.  What good is the right to an attorney if you can't afford one?

Free speech is impeded if you don't have any platform, not if you don't have one in particular. And right now access to a platform is quite literally at an all time high, and the trend isn't really slowing. There's a hell of a long way to fall before lack of platforms is a problem, this was the point I was making the last time this came up.

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Furthermore, in many cases, private entities don't do it because they made their own decisions.  They did it because they were pressured, sometimes with the use of physical intimidation: see the cases of university debates that were shut down by hordes of angry protesters.  Anyone who provides a free speech platform that allows voices to be heard by millions will be targeted and pressured into only allowing certain voices to be heard.

Yes, this is a problem, or the beginning of one. But it's a problem of the overall culture, and while I don't know how to fix it, it's not by fighting over Coontown, because in the end Reddit has the right to deny service to whoever they like if it's more convenient to them, and that's not a right I want lost either*.

This is not a battle you can win on the object level, only on the meta level, if that makes any sense. Because you can't argue that any individual has the specific duty to provide the platform, even if everyone agrees that someone must. You have to establish a general culture of acceptance of weird, ridiculous, and horrifying ideas, so that you're sure that platforms will continue to exist.

And you have to focus on telling people force is absolutely the wrong way to go about this, which you'd think they would have gotten by now but evidently not.


*In the case of Reddit, that is. The right to deny service is more complicated if you are, say, a doctor.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 07:48:19 pm by Sigmaleph »
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Offline davedan

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 08:08:50 pm »
The media you were talking about was entertainment media. Censoring Media seems much more of a problem than censoring entertainment. Besides which due to the internet and the fact that it is easier than ever in history to get a forum to spout your views, I don't think this is a problem. Its not like back before the printing press when you could literally wipe out an idea by destroying the book it was from. Or after when you could shut down a printer. The only way to actually deny free speech is with some serious effort, ala China.