Author Topic: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities  (Read 20424 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rageaholic

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 668
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 08:38:41 pm »
The way I look at it, just because Reddit and private platforms have the right to censor things doesn't mean that it's a good idea that they do.  IMO, the only time when censoring speech is necessary is when the speech itself is harmful (like that reddit that encouraged people to rape while giving them ways to get away with it).  However, if the speech is just offensive, why ban it?  Especially if it's a contained subreddit.  It does not represent reddit as a whole and it's mere existence does not is not a threat to the welfare and liberty of others.   

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 08:40:13 pm »
Sigma consider yourself liked.

Offline rookie

  • Miscreant, petty criminal, and all around nice guy
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 11:56:03 pm »
Going back to the platform thing for a second. Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember seeing a right of platform. Street corners seemed to work for the wackos in my neighborhood. Also, I don't entrepreneurs seeing anything about that people have to listen. If you've got a shitty message and crappy presentation, then you're free to shoot to the heavens as people walk by. If anyone stops to laugh, then the rights that let you stand on the street corner spouting your particular brand of nonsense allows them to laugh at you. A private company, server, whatever the hell Reddit is, has no obligation to provide you a platform. And most businesses are not government. They're businesses. Citizens United aside, businesses exist solely to turn a profit. They make a product or provide a service and sell that. If having a blatantly racist subwhatever is going to hurt those profits, they're well within their rights to stop that. You'll have to show something more to convince me there's a freedom of speech issue here.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Barbarella

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2767
  • Gender: Female
  • A Little REY of Sunshine!
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2015, 11:34:13 am »
Look, I'm the biggest advocate of free speech for the people we dislike. I'm all for a broad interpretation of the term as going beyond just what the government can do.

But not even I will say that free speech is impeded by failure to give a platform. Private companies always had the power to say "You can't use my service to say that", the only difference is that reddit built a reputation as the place where everyone had a platform.

Which is dangerous, because if you build the place where everyone can talk uncensored, you are going to disproportionately attract the sort of people that nobody else likes. Precisely because nobody else likes them. And now your platform is full of assholes and it gets the reputation as "the place with all the assholes" and you don't want that, because if you can go anywhere else, why would you go to the place with all the assholes?

I think places where everyone can say their piece, not matter how horrifying, are valuable. But being that place has heavy costs (which incidentally is why FQA is not one of them). Reddit has the right to not be that place.

But here's the question: where do you draw the line?  I have zero sympathies for the racist assholes at CoonTown.  I'm concerned because crackdowns on free speech never start with forms that are easy to defend.  They gradually build up to them.  If you'll remember, the Salem witch trials started with accusations against pariahs.  After their initial success, they started going after pillars of the community.  It may start with them banning racists, but where does it end?  The exact wording they used was "subreddits that exist solely to annoy other redditors".  Do you have any idea how much leeway that gives them?

Moreover, this sets a very dangerous precedent.  Imagine there's a swing to the far right.  Considering the resentment brewing against radflakes, it's entirely possible.  Now, all of a sudden, those same weapons can be used to silence social justice advocates, feminists, and anybody calling for economic reform.  This means there's pressure on Reddit to ban subreddits the new order dislikes.  Even if Reddit refuses to be bullied, what's to stop them from just taking it over?

And yes, free speech is impeded if you don't have a platform.  What good is the right to an attorney if you can't afford one?  The freedom to speak your mind is meaningless if you're impeded from getting your voice out.  Furthermore, in many cases, private entities don't do it because they made their own decisions.  They did it because they were pressured, sometimes with the use of physical intimidation: see the cases of university debates that were shut down by hordes of angry protesters.  Anyone who provides a free speech platform that allows voices to be heard by millions will be targeted and pressured into only allowing certain voices to be heard.


I agree. That said, if hate speech explicitly promotes violence, it should be banned.....that whole "Don't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded movie theater" thing. However, if most of these sites were otherwise harmless then, yes, you have every right to be concerned.

That should be the criteria involving banning and censoring stuff in a free, open, democratic society, ban only in "Yelling FIRE" situations, otherwise, let let it be no matter how stupid or inflammatory it is.

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3615
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 08:27:26 pm »
Look, I'm the biggest advocate of free speech for the people we dislike. I'm all for a broad interpretation of the term as going beyond just what the government can do.

But not even I will say that free speech is impeded by failure to give a platform. Private companies always had the power to say "You can't use my service to say that", the only difference is that reddit built a reputation as the place where everyone had a platform.

Which is dangerous, because if you build the place where everyone can talk uncensored, you are going to disproportionately attract the sort of people that nobody else likes. Precisely because nobody else likes them. And now your platform is full of assholes and it gets the reputation as "the place with all the assholes" and you don't want that, because if you can go anywhere else, why would you go to the place with all the assholes?

I think places where everyone can say their piece, not matter how horrifying, are valuable. But being that place has heavy costs (which incidentally is why FQA is not one of them). Reddit has the right to not be that place.

But here's the question: where do you draw the line?  I have zero sympathies for the racist assholes at CoonTown.  I'm concerned because crackdowns on free speech never start with forms that are easy to defend.  They gradually build up to them.  If you'll remember, the Salem witch trials started with accusations against pariahs.  After their initial success, they started going after pillars of the community.  It may start with them banning racists, but where does it end?  The exact wording they used was "subreddits that exist solely to annoy other redditors".  Do you have any idea how much leeway that gives them?

Moreover, this sets a very dangerous precedent.  Imagine there's a swing to the far right.  Considering the resentment brewing against radflakes, it's entirely possible.  Now, all of a sudden, those same weapons can be used to silence social justice advocates, feminists, and anybody calling for economic reform.  This means there's pressure on Reddit to ban subreddits the new order dislikes.  Even if Reddit refuses to be bullied, what's to stop them from just taking it over?

And yes, free speech is impeded if you don't have a platform.  What good is the right to an attorney if you can't afford one?  The freedom to speak your mind is meaningless if you're impeded from getting your voice out.  Furthermore, in many cases, private entities don't do it because they made their own decisions.  They did it because they were pressured, sometimes with the use of physical intimidation: see the cases of university debates that were shut down by hordes of angry protesters.  Anyone who provides a free speech platform that allows voices to be heard by millions will be targeted and pressured into only allowing certain voices to be heard.


I agree. That said, if hate speech explicitly promotes violence, it should be banned.....that whole "Don't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded movie theater" thing. However, if most of these sites were otherwise harmless then, yes, you have every right to be concerned.

That should be the criteria involving banning and censoring stuff in a free, open, democratic society, ban only in "Yelling FIRE" situations, otherwise, let let it be no matter how stupid or inflammatory it is.

If someone came here and started using racial slurs, would I be wrong in banning them?
Σא

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2015, 08:39:16 pm »
According to UP's logic, yes.

Ironbite-which is just not what free speech is about.

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3539
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2015, 04:45:06 am »
Although this isn't a free speech site. It is a site subject to the rules set - such as 'don't be a dick' and ' you must answer direct questions'

Offline Barbarella

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2767
  • Gender: Female
  • A Little REY of Sunshine!
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2015, 12:41:48 pm »
Although this isn't a free speech site. It is a site subject to the rules set - such as 'don't be a dick' and ' you must answer direct questions'

Exactly!

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2015, 05:04:29 pm »
Going back to the platform thing for a second. Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember seeing a right of platform. Street corners seemed to work for the wackos in my neighborhood. Also, I don't entrepreneurs seeing anything about that people have to listen. If you've got a shitty message and crappy presentation, then you're free to shoot to the heavens as people walk by. If anyone stops to laugh, then the rights that let you stand on the street corner spouting your particular brand of nonsense allows them to laugh at you. A private company, server, whatever the hell Reddit is, has no obligation to provide you a platform. And most businesses are not government. They're businesses. Citizens United aside, businesses exist solely to turn a profit. They make a product or provide a service and sell that. If having a blatantly racist subwhatever is going to hurt those profits, they're well within their rights to stop that. You'll have to show something more to convince me there's a freedom of speech issue here.

Because Reddit was intended as a bastion of free speech.  The fact you're a private entity doesn't matter if you're advertising yourself as an open forum for public discussions.  If that's the case, it's your moral duty to facilitate that open discussion by protecting even speech you find detestable.

Offline Cerim Treascair

  • My Love Is Lunar
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3092
  • Gender: Male
  • Get me my arbalest... explosive bolts, please.
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2015, 05:24:03 pm »
Going back to the platform thing for a second. Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember seeing a right of platform. Street corners seemed to work for the wackos in my neighborhood. Also, I don't entrepreneurs seeing anything about that people have to listen. If you've got a shitty message and crappy presentation, then you're free to shoot to the heavens as people walk by. If anyone stops to laugh, then the rights that let you stand on the street corner spouting your particular brand of nonsense allows them to laugh at you. A private company, server, whatever the hell Reddit is, has no obligation to provide you a platform. And most businesses are not government. They're businesses. Citizens United aside, businesses exist solely to turn a profit. They make a product or provide a service and sell that. If having a blatantly racist subwhatever is going to hurt those profits, they're well within their rights to stop that. You'll have to show something more to convince me there's a freedom of speech issue here.

Because Reddit was intended as a bastion of free speech.  The fact you're a private entity doesn't matter if you're advertising yourself as an open forum for public discussions.  If that's the case, it's your moral duty to facilitate that open discussion by protecting even speech you find detestable.


Um... well... therein lies the problem, UP.  I won't do a quote breakdown, because it's a monumental pain in the ass.  Instead, I'll just dissect it here and now.

Reddit as a 'bastion of free speech'? Funny, they've never said that.  Ever.

Private entity that doesn't matter if advertising as an open forum for public discussion? um.  Yes.  Yes it does.  They're a PRIVATE COMPANY, they have the right.  Also, if that logic holds true, we should have to deal with every fucking troll and asshole that comes around here on FQA, rather than banhammering them like they deserve.  Have fun with that.

Moral duty? ... Moral.  Fucking.  Duty.  You SANCTIMONIOUS piece of shit! The fuck are you pulling THAT out of? they're an ONLINE COMMUNITY, no different than every other webgroup out there, and you think they have a MORAL DUTY?


Go away.  Just... go away and come back when you've figured out where you went wrong in life.
There is light and darkness in the world, to be sure.  However, there's no harm to be had in walking in the shade or shadows.

Formerly Priestling

"I don't give a fuck about race...I'm white, I'm American, but that shit don't matter.  I'm human."

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2015, 05:52:15 pm »
Going back to the platform thing for a second. Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember seeing a right of platform. Street corners seemed to work for the wackos in my neighborhood. Also, I don't entrepreneurs seeing anything about that people have to listen. If you've got a shitty message and crappy presentation, then you're free to shoot to the heavens as people walk by. If anyone stops to laugh, then the rights that let you stand on the street corner spouting your particular brand of nonsense allows them to laugh at you. A private company, server, whatever the hell Reddit is, has no obligation to provide you a platform. And most businesses are not government. They're businesses. Citizens United aside, businesses exist solely to turn a profit. They make a product or provide a service and sell that. If having a blatantly racist subwhatever is going to hurt those profits, they're well within their rights to stop that. You'll have to show something more to convince me there's a freedom of speech issue here.

Because Reddit was intended as a bastion of free speech.  The fact you're a private entity doesn't matter if you're advertising yourself as an open forum for public discussions.  If that's the case, it's your moral duty to facilitate that open discussion by protecting even speech you find detestable.


Um... well... therein lies the problem, UP.  I won't do a quote breakdown, because it's a monumental pain in the ass.  Instead, I'll just dissect it here and now.

Reddit as a 'bastion of free speech'? Funny, they've never said that.  Ever.

Except they have.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/02/reddit-co-founder-alexis-ohanians-rosy-outlook-on-the-future-of-politics/

Quote from: Alexis Ohanian
A bastion of free speech on the World Wide Web?  I bet [the founding fathers] would like it.

Private entity that doesn't matter if advertising as an open forum for public discussion? um.  Yes.  Yes it does.  They're a PRIVATE COMPANY, they have the right.  Also, if that logic holds true, we should have to deal with every fucking troll and asshole that comes around here on FQA, rather than banhammering them like they deserve.  Have fun with that.

Different scenario entirely.  FQA doesn't claim to be a bastion of free speech.  Besides, on Reddit it should be the responsibility of the subreddits to deal with those types.

Moral duty? ... Moral.  Fucking.  Duty.  You SANCTIMONIOUS piece of shit! The fuck are you pulling THAT out of? they're an ONLINE COMMUNITY, no different than every other webgroup out there, and you think they have a MORAL DUTY?

Actually, they are different.  For one, they're a lot bigger than most online communities.  Therefore, along with other big networking sites like Facebook and Twitter, I'm going to hold them to high standards.  Hell, I'm going to hold Reddit to higher standards because of its unique structure!

I believe that big social websites should give everybody the same access to infrastructure and audience, regardless of opinion.  Because if they don't, everybody suffers.

Go away.  Just... go away and come back when you've figured out where you went wrong in life.

Why are you so upset about this, man?  I'm kinda concerned.

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3615
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2015, 06:43:56 pm »
Although this isn't a free speech site. It is a site subject to the rules set - such as 'don't be a dick' and ' you must answer direct questions'

Exactly!

OK, so why am I allowed to enforce rules and not reddit? Is being a free-speech site something you can't opt out of?
Σא

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2015, 08:04:33 pm »
Although this isn't a free speech site. It is a site subject to the rules set - such as 'don't be a dick' and ' you must answer direct questions'

Exactly!

OK, so why am I allowed to enforce rules and not reddit? Is being a free-speech site something you can't opt out of?

You can, but that doesn't mean you should.  Especially not without consulting the userbase.  See, Reddit's meant to be community driven, and as such, these mandates from on high are a betrayal of the users.

Offline rookie

  • Miscreant, petty criminal, and all around nice guy
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2015, 11:02:06 am »
I think I see what the problem here is. Free speech is a construct of the government. It applies to protection from government and only from government. It means that (except for cases of inciting violence, putting people in danger, copyright infringement, and slander or liable) you can say any damn fool thing you want without being arrested or otherwise penalized by the government. Like I said, I think I see the problem. You seem to believe that free speech should be a bit broader. That we should be expecting the same treatments from private entities. That may be a discussion worth having. But as it stands now, anybody who was effected by the subreddit shutting down has not had their free speech rights violated in any way. No more than if a troll gets banhammered here.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3615
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2015, 04:13:40 pm »
Although this isn't a free speech site. It is a site subject to the rules set - such as 'don't be a dick' and ' you must answer direct questions'

Exactly!

OK, so why am I allowed to enforce rules and not reddit? Is being a free-speech site something you can't opt out of?

You can, but that doesn't mean you should.  Especially not without consulting the userbase.  See, Reddit's meant to be community driven, and as such, these mandates from on high are a betrayal of the users.

Ah, that's a different thing then. Not into Reddit culture so I can't comment on that, so I'll just say that betraying the users/going against the spirit of the site is not a general free speech issue.

If you problem is Reddit not being Reddit in the right way, sure, that's a perfectly valid thing to be upset about. But the framing of this thread, and correct me if I got the wrong impression, was "there is a general problem with free speech caused by Reddit banning certain subreddits". I disagree with that, on the grounds that reddit is not everything.

If what you meant was that there is a reduction of freedom of speech in Reddit, then yes. Speech is not as free as it could be, in Reddit. That's about all I can say on the subject, not being a regular reddit user. My views on localised free speech are much less strong than those about general free speech.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 04:15:12 pm by Sigmaleph »
Σא