Feminism and Effective Propaganda

[davedan]

Killed themselves over Bullying? Or killed themselves because of Big Red?

[Rime]

Sorry I have never gotten the fuss about Anita Sarkeesian, I don't see how she's the devil or why she should be screamed at on sight.

Not screamed at, no.  But the fact that nobody in the mainstream media seems willing to challenge her claims is honestly disturbing.

Maybe it had to do with majority of well-reasoned responses taking the form of "You're a cunt" and the rather overboard number of rape/death threats she had received.  If people had managed to remain civil and criticized the faults in her videos, I don't think she would have been making a speech at the UN.  Instead, the asshats just added further evidence that she was right and that there is a big "hate-on" for women in video games.

And maybe it's also because things like her videos, the Mass Effect 3 ending and the disaster of Aliens:Colonial Marines aren't newsworthy, but receiving dozens of explicit threats for producing them is, even if they were a big, hairy screaming deal to a lot of people.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Sorry I have never gotten the fuss about Anita Sarkeesian, I don't see how she's the devil or why she should be screamed at on sight.

Not screamed at, no.  But the fact that nobody in the mainstream media seems willing to challenge her claims is honestly disturbing.

Maybe it had to do with majority of well-reasoned responses taking the form of "You're a cunt" and the rather overboard number of rape/death threats she had received.

"The majority?"  Are you serious?

If people had managed to remain civil and criticized the faults in her videos, I don't think she would have been making a speech at the UN.

A lot of people were civil.  But nobody talks about them. 

Instead, the asshats just added further evidence that she was right and that there is a big "hate-on" for women in video games.

Because people insulting you automatically proves you're right.  Besides, there is evidence to suggest that at least some of the harassment was faked.

And maybe it's also because things like her videos, the Mass Effect 3 ending and the disaster of Aliens:Colonial Marines aren't newsworthy, but receiving dozens of explicit threats for producing them is, even if they were a big, hairy screaming deal to a lot of people.

What makes you the arbiter of newsworthiness?

[Even Then]

A lot of people were civil.  But nobody talks about them. 

Maybe because... they're not that relevant. Some civil people don't cancel out rape/death threats and harassment. It doesn't work that way. In anything, really.

[mellenORL]

Civility being the acceptable norm, the contrasting ape-shit behavior is what gets in the news, especially once there are more than a handful of such verbal attacks.

[Ultimate Paragon]

A lot of people were civil.  But nobody talks about them. 

Maybe because... they're not that relevant. Some civil people don't cancel out rape/death threats and harassment. It doesn't work that way. In anything, really.

True, but it does mean that the narrative about Sarkeesian is deeply flawed at best.

Civility being the acceptable norm, the contrasting ape-shit behavior is what gets in the news, especially once there are more than a handful of such verbal attacks.

The problem is the media refusing to acknowledge legitimate criticisms of Sarkeesian.  Either they sympathize with her insane politics, or they're exploiting missing white woman syndrome for ratings.

Exhibit A: Jack Thompson.  If you'll remember, he got death threats too.  I don't remember anybody saying he was proven right by them.  In fact, I barely remember the media talking about them at all.

[Even Then]

See, Thompson's point was that "ERMAHGERD GAMES BRAINWASH KIDS INTO MURDERERS". He gets harassment for this. Not relevant to Thompson's oversimplified narrative, doesn't prove his point.

Anita's point (one of the primary ones at least) is that women get shit for talking about vidya and feminism on the internet in a way that men don't. She gets harassment for this. Point proven.

Does this count as GG conversation? I don't want to play a part in breaking the rules.

[Ultimate Paragon]

See, Thompson's point was that "ERMAHGERD GAMES BRAINWASH KIDS INTO MURDERERS". He gets harassment for this. Not relevant to Thompson's oversimplified narrative, doesn't prove his point.

How, exactly, is it "irrelevant" to the narrative he's trying to push?  He claims video games make people violent.  He gets death threats.  It's the exact same logic people use to claim Sarkeesian is right.

Anita's point (one of the primary ones at least) is that women get shit for talking about vidya and feminism on the internet in a way that men don't. She gets harassment for this. Point proven.

Well, you're technically right, in that harassment tends to be different for men and women.  Men are more likely to be threatened with violence, whereas women are more likely to be sexually harassed.  But if you don't think men get severe harassment for talking about that, you're sorely mistaken.  Just ask Phil Fish.

Furthermore, the media is rather selective in which women it sympathizes with.  Christina Hoff Sommers and Cathy Young are two prominent feminists who suffered a lot of harassment for going against the grain.  Why isn't the media talking about that?  Or what about the outrage brigade's harassment campaigns against Joss Whedon and Nolan North?

[Ironchew]

This thread is just UP mansplaining to all the feminists that they're being too outspoken. If only they were more polite maybe he wouldn't listen to what they're saying wouldn't be so offended.

Long story short, Atheism+ was an attempt by radflakes to inject their usual brand of identity politics into organized atheism.

No, it was a split from the atheist movement specifically to distance itself from the right-wing assholes that poison the social justice conversation.

But although they failed to hijack atheism, they did manage to get their names on the map.  Atheism+ isn't dead, not by a longshot.

The movement is dead, sadly. Fear not; yet again, you aren't being persecuted.

(Oh, and by the way, Tim Hunt isn't being persecuted either.)

Ignoring bullies rarely works.

Which is why I'm glad Sarkeesian and co. are being so outspoken. Whatever disagreements I may have had or still have with her finer points, the vitriol she gets from UP and his gator buddies only serves as staggering evidence of the need for people like her to take a stand and give a voice to women who endure this relentless storm of harassment.

[Even Then]

What I mean us that Jack didn't specifically say "speaking about media influence on society invites harassment". Anita posited that speaking about misogyny in video games as a woman beckons harassment in a different, more gendered and more intense way than if it were a man speaking.  And it did. I'm not saying that men don't get harassed over speaking about feminism, I'm saying that misogyny is an intensifying factor in harassment for feminism.

Also, didn't Whedon specifically say that "the outrage brigade" DIDN'T cause him to leave Twitter?

[Ultimate Paragon]

This thread is just UP mansplaining to all the feminists that they're being too outspoken. If only they were more polite maybe he wouldn't listen to what they're saying wouldn't be so offended.

There's a fine line between "outspoken" and "obnoxious."  Certain feminists are so far over that line, it's almost disturbing.  Besides, it's a fact of life that people don't like dealing with assholes.

Long story short, Atheism+ was an attempt by radflakes to inject their usual brand of identity politics into organized atheism.

No, it was a split from the atheist movement specifically to distance itself from the right-wing assholes that poison the social justice conversation.

The fact that you use "right-wing" as a pejorative speaks volumes about your bias.  But more important, I've done quite a bit of research into the controversy, and I've found that your narrative just doesn't hold water.

And I find it ironic that you buy into this story so easily, considering how much you pride yourself on skepticism.

But although they failed to hijack atheism, they did manage to get their names on the map.  Atheism+ isn't dead, not by a longshot.

The movement is dead, sadly. Fear not; yet again, you aren't being persecuted.

Well, I'm not persecuted, since I'm not an atheist, but there are some who are.

(Oh, and by the way, Tim Hunt isn't being persecuted either.)

Yes, he is.  What do you call the smear campaign against him?

Ignoring bullies rarely works.

Which is why I'm glad Sarkeesian and co. are being so outspoken. Whatever disagreements I may have had or still have with her finer points, the vitriol she gets from UP and his gator buddies only serves as staggering evidence of the need for people like her to take a stand and give a voice to women who endure this relentless storm of harassment.

What I mean us that Jack didn't specifically say "speaking about media influence on society invites harassment". Anita posited that speaking about misogyny in video games as a woman beckons harassment in a different, more gendered and more intense way than if it were a man speaking.  And it did. I'm not saying that men don't get harassed over speaking about feminism, I'm saying that misogyny is an intensifying factor in harassment for feminism.

Also, didn't Whedon specifically say that "the outrage brigade" DIDN'T cause him to leave Twitter?

Yes.  Just like how one of my coworkers said she broke her arm falling down the stairs.

[Even Then]

I can't exactly provide citations for an overarching social phenomenon,  but consider the following: men don't (mostly) get rape threats. Men don't get specifically misandristic harassment.  When was the last time men were dozed for talking about feminism?

And if you're not taking the man's own word as proof, then I don't know what to say.

[Ultimate Paragon]

I can't exactly provide citations for an overarching social phenomenon,  but consider the following: men don't (mostly) get rape threats.

"Mostly?"  Let me ask you: how many rape threats does it take for a line to be crossed?

Men don't get specifically misandristic harassment.

I have strong evidence otherwise.

When was the last time men were dozed for talking about feminism?

Last year at the earliest.

And if you're not taking the man's own word as proof, then I don't know what to say.

Alright, then.  Let's assume Whedon's telling the truth.  Even if that's true, the outrage brigade is still responsible for a disquieting amount of grief and misery.

[Even Then]

Enough for it to be on equal standing with the amount that women get. At that point, the issue would stop being gendered.

As for the doxxing, you're referring to a specific case of a man being doxxed soon after talking about feminism,  so... citation needed.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Enough for it to be on equal standing with the amount that women get. At that point, the issue would stop being gendered.

So, it has to be exactly equal for it to stop being a gendered issue?  Is murder a gendered issue?  After all, men are more likely to be murdered than women.

As for the doxxing, you're referring to a specific case of a man being doxxed soon after talking about feminism,  so... citation needed.

I don't know about the exact timing, but here's your citation: