Author Topic: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign  (Read 1526 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 04:07:57 pm »

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical


Pick one.
Herein Lana again places the burden of disingenous fuckery by /pol and other assorted dolt-right anynymous channer snotgoblins on their readers, not the fuckers who penned the fuckery.

Were the articles OR the pol posts satirical? Even if they were it wouldn't disqualify either from encouraging someone who actually believes that shit.

I could try to explain to you the difference between punching up and down but the concepts of intersecting advantages and disadvantages of race, class and opportunity seem to baffle you and it'd take all night!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 06:34:25 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Skybison

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2017, 04:33:58 pm »
>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical


Pick one.

Since it went completely over your head, the point I was making is that by the same logic you use to say that the Nazi's on pol are probably just being ironic, I can also say these articles are too.  You're only applying "It's just ironic racism" to your own side.

Quote
And if you're concerned about racism flourishing, then I'd say some posts on 4chan should be the least of your worries. Tell me, do you agree with the notion that Islamophobia pushes Muslims into the arms of the jihadis?

To an extent it can be a factor, although it takes way more then just someone being a dick on the internet.  You've got economic inequalities, cultural isolation, politicians fear-mongering about you and advocating bigoted policies.  And even with all that the number of Muslims in the west who do join jihadi groups in the west is tiny.  So no I don't think this is going to turn white dudes into Nazis if that's what you are getting at.

Quote
Oh, and if you think ironic racism on /pol/ helps real Nazis, then wouldn't the same be true regarding anti-white racists if these articles are satirical? Don't blame me, I'm only playing by your own rules.

To be honest yes.  I do think it is a bad thing for left wingers to embrace this kind of violent rhetoric and that it pulls the overton window out of where it should be.

Offline niam2023

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2017, 07:06:50 pm »
Kind of surprised she didn't rage against the "bias" of the rationalwiki article detailing exactly what Its Okay to be White really is.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2017, 11:52:38 pm »

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical


Pick one.
Herein Lana again places the burden of disingenous fuckery by /pol and other assorted dolt-right anynymous channer snotgoblins on their readers, not the fuckers who penned the fuckery.

Were the articles OR the pol posts satirical? Even if they were it wouldn't disqualify either from encouraging someone who actually believes that shit.

Well, at least you're consistent.

I could try to explain to you the difference between punching up and down but the concepts of intersecting advantages and disaadvantages of race, class and opportunity seem to baffle you and it'd take all night!

We need to dispense with this idea that attacking white people is automatically "punching up." Most white people are not corporate bigshots or old money WASPs. The sooner we realize that class carries far more advantages than race, the better it'll be for everyone.

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical


Pick one.

Since it went completely over your head, the point I was making is that by the same logic you use to say that the Nazi's on pol are probably just being ironic, I can also say these articles are too.  You're only applying "It's just ironic racism" to your own side.

No, I'm saying it might be ironic racism.

You know what, let's stop trying to prove each other hypocrites. If we continue down that route, it'll lead to nothing but an argument of contradictions. "You're a hypocrite!" "No, you're a hypocrite!" "Nuh uh, you're the hypocrite!"

Quote
And if you're concerned about racism flourishing, then I'd say some posts on 4chan should be the least of your worries. Tell me, do you agree with the notion that Islamophobia pushes Muslims into the arms of the jihadis?

To an extent it can be a factor, although it takes way more then just someone being a dick on the internet.  You've got economic inequalities, cultural isolation, politicians fear-mongering about you and advocating bigoted policies.  And even with all that the number of Muslims in the west who do join jihadi groups in the west is tiny.  So no I don't think this is going to turn white dudes into Nazis if that's what you are getting at.

I agree, it's going to take more than just mean words on the Internet to turn white people to Nazism. Unfortunately, a lot of working-class white Americans are also suffering from many of the problems you cite as happening to Western Muslims. And I'm very afraid of what might happen if they get radicalized in similar proportions. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I think it's something worth being concerned about.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2017, 12:26:37 am »
Being concerned about the rise of nazi's and alt-rightists is certainly valid.  But some dumb people on the far left saying dumb things isn't the main cause, or even an important secondary one.  How much discrimination do white dudes actually face in their day to day lives?  As a white dude I can say very little.

The rise of Alt-Nazi's I'd argue has more to do with the shift in the overton window.  White guys getting their news from Fox and Breitbart telling them that the scary foreigners are coming to get them and the mean liberals are pure evil baby killers, and hanging out online in places like 4chan where it becomes okay to scream "GASTHEKIKES" and pull that into something socially acceptable.  We get our morality from what we see being rewarded and punished in the society around us, and when that is full of people screaming "Being white and christian makes you better then others, and the different are out to get you." we internalize that.  Some random blogger is not responsible for the rise of the far right, it's Rupert Murdoch and Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos.  And when the likes of you start whining  "It's just Trolls being trolls" or "But muh Free Speech" when bigoted statements are criticized is part of the problem.  It being acceptable to be a bigoted asshole results in people being bigoted assholes.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2017, 04:12:31 am »

We need to dispense with this idea that attacking white people is automatically "punching up." Most white people are not corporate bigshots or old money WASPs. The sooner we realize that class carries far more advantages than race, the better it'll be for everyone.

Poor white people exist? Well fuck me, I thought that fella with the neck prison tatts in the old tracksuit who asked me for a cigarette today was an old Etonian! I stand corrected.

Lana, you do know that neither advantage or disadvantage are points based systems. Yeah poverty is bad but it's not the same as, for example being trans, even though both confer disadvantages and that you can have two types of disadvantage at once. They don't all form a scorecard to how hard done by you are. Being poor and white no more makes your problems the same as those suffered uniquely by black people any more than being disabled makes your problems the same as folks who have English as a second language!

Yes, being white doesn't guarantee life will be a cakewalk, neither does being male, being straight, able bodied, cis, having decent parents etc, etc but whites as a group do better than non-whites in Europe and most of the places Europeans settled from Brazil to New Zealand to the United States because that's the legacy of colonialism, missionary fervor and slavery. That's a fact.

Offline davedan

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2017, 08:50:00 pm »
You know if there was any lingering doubt, this thread has squashed it.

Offline niam2023

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2017, 02:28:14 am »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2017, 10:49:54 am »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.

And Osama bin Laden was concerned about global warming. Your point?
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Offline Svata

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2017, 11:16:14 am »
Be that as it may, Osama didn't proclaim its usefulness in advancing his agenda. That's where the difference comes in. Hitler ate sugar, and that doesn't make sugar-eaters Nazis. But. Hitler didn't (AFAIK) use sugar to promote Nazism. They're using this to promote Nazism. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all of the people who use this slogan are Nazis, but it's a helluva data point in that direction.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2017, 07:00:27 pm »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.

And Osama bin Laden was concerned about global warming. Your point?

Do you have anything to say other than whataboutism? What about Osama Bin Laden being concerned about global warming? Why does that matter right now?
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2017, 08:53:42 pm »
This, of course has been a pattern amongst alt-righters for a while Start an online campaign to promote something not Nazi sounding, which is of course to promote Nazi fuckery in the hopes of picking up useful idiots to enable it's spread.

Some fall flat like 'End Father's Day', others pick up sincere dummies in a whirlwind of confusion and trollery faster than you can say "it's about ethics in gaming journalism."

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2017, 11:39:16 pm »
Be that as it may, Osama didn't proclaim its usefulness in advancing his agenda. That's where the difference comes in. Hitler ate sugar, and that doesn't make sugar-eaters Nazis. But. Hitler didn't (AFAIK) use sugar to promote Nazism. They're using this to promote Nazism. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all of the people who use this slogan are Nazis, but it's a helluva data point in that direction.

Oh. Sorry about missing the point. Guess I'm not as innocent of certain biases as I thought.

Being concerned about the rise of nazi's and alt-rightists is certainly valid.  But some dumb people on the far left saying dumb things isn't the main cause, or even an important secondary one.  How much discrimination do white dudes actually face in their day to day lives?  As a white dude I can say very little.

The rise of Alt-Nazi's I'd argue has more to do with the shift in the overton window.  White guys getting their news from Fox and Breitbart telling them that the scary foreigners are coming to get them and the mean liberals are pure evil baby killers, and hanging out online in places like 4chan where it becomes okay to scream "GASTHEKIKES" and pull that into something socially acceptable.  We get our morality from what we see being rewarded and punished in the society around us, and when that is full of people screaming "Being white and christian makes you better then others, and the different are out to get you." we internalize that.  Some random blogger is not responsible for the rise of the far right, it's Rupert Murdoch and Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos.  And when the likes of you start whining  "It's just Trolls being trolls" or "But muh Free Speech" when bigoted statements are criticized is part of the problem.  It being acceptable to be a bigoted asshole results in people being bigoted assholes.

I don't think you're wrong, at least in a general sense, but I also think there are some key ingredients you're missing. Why did the alt-right gain so much traction so quickly? I'd say it's partly due to a combination of anti-establishment sentiment and reactions to extremism of another form.

Let's face it: the establishment has failed countless people. Economic inequality is a growing problem all over the West. Rural America is dying, both economically and literally. Grooming gangs are plaguing British cities. It's no wonder left-wingers and right-wingers alike are turning to populists like Trump and Corbyn.

As for the extremism, I'm starting to think a principle similar to Newton's third law applies in politics. I hate to Godwin, but I think the rise of Nazism in Germany can be taken as a case study. Its growth was, in part, a reaction to violent left-wing extremism. While that certainly wasn't the only factor, it was a big one. Similarly, I think the meteoric rise of the alt-right can be blamed at least partly on another form of extremist left-wing politics. I'm talking about SJWism.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the alt-right started gaining in strength as SJWs became more visible. And don't tell me they're just idiots on social media, the progressive stack alone proves that isn't true. But why did the SJWs get so powerful? Well, if your theory is correct, I'd say they also grew in number and influence because of the media. Take a look at these 100% real headlines:

Let's hope the Boston Marathon bomber is a white American

White men must be stopped: The very future of mankind depends on it

White guys are killing us: Toxic, cowardly masculinity, our unhealable national illness

White guy killer syndrome: Elliot Rodger’s deadly, privileged rage

(On a side note, all of these articles were published in Salon. When I said it might as well be run by the NoI, that wasn't much of an exaggeration.)

By your logic, left-wingers reading articles like these are going to consider it acceptable to hate white people, especially if they happen to be male.

In other words, I think the rise of the alt-right was partly a backlash against Social Justice Warriors. And unfortunately, some of the left seems to think escalation is the best answer. So antifa started making unprovoked attacks on anybody they considered to be "Nazis."

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg</a>

Unfortunately, this led to the alt-right becoming more violent, which led to the tragedy in Charlottesville. Extremism begets extremism. Hate begets hate. Violence begets violence.

...I'm going to get some really stimulating responses to this, aren't I?
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2017, 12:57:47 am »
"SJWism" isn't a thing. "SJW" just means "progressive I find irritating." in it's modern useage.

Offline niam2023

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Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2017, 01:22:05 am »
That you are.

The alt-right was a doomed idea from the start - formed by Nazis and Neo-Nazis chomping at the bit to indulge every bit of rage and hate in their hearts...to, I'll borrow their phrase, chimp out. They were waiting, eagerly, to find a cause innocuously named enough to escape the stigma of what they were, and then be able to engage in violence. That is all they ever were, all they ever will be, and why nothing good will ever emerge from that festooning overgrown privy.

I am a white guy.

I'm not threatened in the least or intimidated by a bunch of rag articles written by people at Salon.

They do produce rage and fear in the hearts and minds of those too utterly feeble-minded to imagine a world that isn't what they grew up with. These articles you produced only incite fear in the hearts and minds of feeble-minded men who are by their words, nomenclature and actions named "louts".

And I have NO sympathy whatsoever from brawling Trump Supporters or those who get into action against Anti-Fa - they elected this rampaging moron, and so I will not feel a shred of sympathy for them at all.

As for the death of Rural America, I can't really say I care. I have family out there - still can't say I care.
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