Author Topic: More proof that Catholicism is true  (Read 8014 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2018, 01:05:03 pm »
I think there is an episode of TNG where it is revealed that years ago when Riker used a teleporter it malfunctioned and as a result it beamed him out of a space station that was being evacuated but also left/created another one of him back on the station due to [technobabble] when the device malfunctioned.

...

After checking the Wiki it really does appear that the teleporters make copies of people. Otherwise this beam-up-mix-up would have been impossible: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Chances_(episode)
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2018, 02:10:40 pm »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.

The New Testament refers to the serpent as Satan or the Prince of Darkness.

No, it refers to Satan as Satan. I.e. the angel (read: Not a snake) who rebelled against God's rule and was banished from heaven as a result (this happened after the events of Genesis, by the by). Again, two completely different and unrelated characters.

"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Offline Svata

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2018, 03:10:38 pm »

Jesus was member of the Fourth philosophy movement, an apocalyptic duelist Jew.  Traditional Judaism is strictly monotheistic, but influence from Zoroastrianism gave rise to the duelist movement that saw the universe as a battle between a good god (yahweh) and an evil god (various minor figures from Jewish folklore were inflated to this role eventually settling on a bit player in the book of Job).  From that came apocalyptists who believed that a final showdown between God and Satan was imminent.  This final battle would be lead by a special messiah, an ordinary Human that God would choose ala Moses or David.  Jesus was one of the various cult leaders of the time who claimed this title, and worked as a travelling faith healer and magician who preached a message of resistance to Roman rule and the cuckservative Jewish religious leaders, a proto-marxist working class revolution that saw poor Jews as the ones who truely followed God and that people should abandon all material pursuits and even their families if need be to focus on spiritual purity and the coming end of history.



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Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2018, 03:50:31 pm »
A few more points:

Lucifer is another name for the planet Venus, the "morning star".

Jesus did not claim to be God.

Renaissance art depicting the seduction of Eve shows the serpent as being female (hm, I wonder if all that Biblical misogyny had something to do with that). You can see this, for instance, on the Cathedral of Notre Dame.

The verse from Revelations does not say that the serpent being referenced there was the one that tempted Adam and Eve.

This is all, of course, pointless, since it's a religion, and religion is what we call a mythology that sufficiently many people still believe to be true.
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2018, 04:28:04 pm »
A few more points:

Lucifer is another name for the planet Venus, the "morning star".

Jesus did not claim to be God.

Renaissance art depicting the seduction of Eve shows the serpent as being female (hm, I wonder if all that Biblical misogyny had something to do with that). You can see this, for instance, on the Cathedral of Notre Dame.

The verse from Revelations does not say that the serpent being referenced there was the one that tempted Adam and Eve.

This is all, of course, pointless, since it's a religion, and religion is what we call a mythology that sufficiently many people still believe to be true.

1. Because Venus outshines the other Stars, it was used as a metaphor to describe Satan because he is more significant than the other angels because he invented evil and rebelled against God.

2. “I and the Father are one. ” John 10:30

3. It was based on the myth that Adam had a first wife called Lilith who took the form of the serpent.


Offline Skybison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2018, 04:59:15 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2018, 05:12:10 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2018, 05:25:39 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

1. Your religion is Judaism with more insane bullshit on top.

2. And how do we know the "Orthodoxy" was true (or closer to the truth than any other group)?

And Marcian was probably the wisest of the early Christians, he pointed out that it'd be best to just ditch the entire Old Testament. Would that they had followed his path...
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2018, 05:43:44 pm »
1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

So what?  The authors of genesis still didn't think the snake was the devil.

Quote
2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

So what?  They still existed, were quit numerous at the time and were still first.  If the authors of the Synoptic gospels thought Jesus was God why didn't they try to correct this heresy?

Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2018, 05:53:01 pm »
As a related note, while Marcian was quite right that the Christianity should have ditched the Old Testament, it's not like the New Testament is all that great, either.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline niam2023

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2018, 06:06:52 pm »
Also, keeping the "tempting mortals to test their piety" thing in mind, wouldn't tempting Eve to sin just be...Satan doing his job, which he did again in the Book of Job?

Satan charged that Job was only faithful because his life was full of blessings, a fair enough point to make - can you count on the faithfulness of a guy when he's only known success and you haven't seen how he is in the midst of failure?

Satan then received God's approval to go ahead with his duties - test Job's piety.

It is in the Book of Job we see Satan as an Angel. He freely circulates in Heaven, and converses directly with God.

This Christian source I found says that Lucifer =/= Satan. http://ap.lanexdev.com/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1091
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 06:08:54 pm by niam2023 »
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Offline davedan

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2018, 06:19:55 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

So you worship a guy who followed a false religion? Because Jesus was  jewish, really jewish.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2018, 06:21:25 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

1. Your religion is Judaism with more insane bullshit on top.

2. And how do we know the "Orthodoxy" was true (or closer to the truth than any other group)?

And Marcian was probably the wisest of the early Christians, he pointed out that it'd be best to just ditch the entire Old Testament. Would that they had followed his path...

1. But Christianity is far superior because it says that the messiah came.

2. Well first of all, because the Orthodoxy stayed true to worshipping the God of the Old Testament in accordance with the Gospels, while the Gnostics and Marcionians went against him. Second because Marcion was a second century theologian who came after the time the Gospels and Epistles  were written making his writings less orthodox.

The true Orthodoxy knew that Jesus was God.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2018, 06:22:38 pm »
"And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apocalypse/Revelation 12:9 Douay-Rheims Bible(English translation of the Latin Vulgate)

Sure revelations says that, but genesis doesn't.  The authors of genesis did not believe in any such figure as Satan, just like modern Jews don't.


It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Except that's not true, we know from sources written by Christians that there were many different forms of Christianity in the early days, from Gnostics to Marcionism to Jews who thought he was the Messiah but only God's adopted son.  And the evidence is overwhelming that the last of those groups were the first Christians.  If the Gospel writers thought Jesus was God, why didn't they tell the Christians who didn't believe that?

1. Because Judaism is a false religion that does not contain the New Testament that explains that Jesus came to save the world from Satan who invented sin.

2. The other groups were declared heretics by the Orthodoxy.

So you worship a guy who followed a false religion? Because Jesus was  jewish, really jewish.

I am not refering to pre Christian Judaism, I am referring to post Christian Judaism that does not acknowledge Jesus as the messiah.

Offline dpareja

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2018, 06:27:23 pm »
Maybe because Jesus didn't satisfy the prophecies of the Messiah.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.