Author Topic: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam  (Read 3889 times)

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Offline Fpqxz

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From the Guardian:

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A course for US military officers has been teaching that America's enemy is Islam in general and suggesting that the country might ultimately have to obliterate the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina without regard for civilian deaths, following second world war precedents of the nuclear attack on Hiroshima.

The Pentagon suspended the course in late April when a student objected to the material. The FBI also changed some agent training last year after discovering that it, too, was critical of Islam.

Wired magazine has a more detailed article on this, along with a copy of the presentation (warning:  large PDF file).

I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 08:39:52 am »
From the Guardian:

Quote
A course for US military officers has been teaching that America's enemy is Islam in general and suggesting that the country might ultimately have to obliterate the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina without regard for civilian deaths, following second world war precedents of the nuclear attack on Hiroshima.

The Pentagon suspended the course in late April when a student objected to the material. The FBI also changed some agent training last year after discovering that it, too, was critical of Islam.

Wired magazine has a more detailed article on this, along with a copy of the presentation (warning:  large PDF file).

I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
Seeing as the tyt version of the story mentions that the course said that there is no such thing as moderate Islam it would not be just fundies

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 08:44:42 am »
On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
It would indeed be nice, though nuking Mecca and Medina wouldn't exactly help matters.

Offline Fpqxz

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 08:56:10 am »
Seeing as the tyt version of the story mentions that the course said that there is no such thing as moderate Islam it would not be just fundies

I meant the belief system as a whole.   Mainstream Islamic belief is the the Quran was dictated by God and is absolute.
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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2012, 09:10:37 am »
Seeing as the tyt version of the story mentions that the course said that there is no such thing as moderate Islam it would not be just fundies

I meant the belief system as a whole.   Mainstream Islamic belief is the the Quran was dictated by God and is absolute.

That's also mainstream Christian belief about the Bible. And mainstream Jewish belief about the Torah. Etc etc etc.

Offline Murdin

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2012, 10:28:09 am »
I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
And once you've nuked Arabia back to the stone age and (somehow) conquered the rest of the Muslim world, what do you intend to do? The only thing you will have managed to do against Islam at this point is to push its followers further towards misery, reclusion, violence and extremism. As history tells us, in order to truly eradicate an entire religion, you will have to use some combination of religious oppression, proselytizing and genocide. So much for the "greater good".

Sure, you won't be defeating fundamentalism so much as displacing it. And, of course, you will be the first to try and apply those methods to a belief system with one billion plus followers. But, hey, if you really wish to become the greatest monster in the history of mankind, go ahead.

Also, why stop at Mecca and Medina? How can you condemn them, and yet spare Rome and Jerusalem, the embodiments of the two absolute worst aspects of organized religion : its corrupt leadership, and its ability to spread hatred among people?

That's also mainstream Christian belief about the Bible. And mainstream Jewish belief about the Torah. Etc etc etc.
Well, not quite. Muslims believe that their holy book was literally dictated by God to Muhammad, while Christians only believe that theirs was divinely inspired by Him. Whether this fundamental difference in theology justifies the eradication of Muslims is up to you to decide.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 10:50:56 am by Murdin »

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 11:09:54 am »
From the Guardian:

Quote
A course for US military officers has been teaching that America's enemy is Islam in general and suggesting that the country might ultimately have to obliterate the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina without regard for civilian deaths, following second world war precedents of the nuclear attack on Hiroshima.

The Pentagon suspended the course in late April when a student objected to the material. The FBI also changed some agent training last year after discovering that it, too, was critical of Islam.

Wired magazine has a more detailed article on this, along with a copy of the presentation (warning:  large PDF file).

I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
The problem is (aside from the totally horrific tactics) that they didn't say they wanted to defeat fundamentalist Islam. They just want to defeat Islam. All of Islam. And they claimed there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 12:52:31 pm »
On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.

You can never defeat fundamentalism so long as there are idiots. Attacking a holy site only creates more fundamentalism, not less.

Offline booley

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 01:17:26 pm »
......
I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.

What's that saying.. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I have to disagree with your analysis.

For one thing we would only weaken one set that authoritarian assholes that does occasional terrorism while cementing into power another set of authoritarian assholes willing to commit genocide.

Al queda at it's most dangerous killed over 5000 people.  These people above are thinking it may be a good idea to kill over 1,000,000,000 (muslims and anybody who stood in their way)

For another fundie Islam (like fundie christianity and fundie Judaism) already has this fetish when it comes to global wars and being persecuted (the perception of it anyway)  So this would make lots of people who weren't' fundy before now fundy.

it wouldn't really work.

I also have to wonder...  is the pentagon just unaware that some of it's military are muslims?

I am cynical about this just because it's so profoundly stupid.
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Offline myusername

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 02:07:56 pm »
From the Guardian:

Quote
A course for US military officers has been teaching that America's enemy is Islam in general and suggesting that the country might ultimately have to obliterate the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina without regard for civilian deaths, following second world war precedents of the nuclear attack on Hiroshima.

The Pentagon suspended the course in late April when a student objected to the material. The FBI also changed some agent training last year after discovering that it, too, was critical of Islam.

Wired magazine has a more detailed article on this, along with a copy of the presentation (warning:  large PDF file).

I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.

Well this makes a bit of a mockery of our leaders' "respect" for Islam...

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 03:58:28 pm »
This is absolutely disgusting.  How does this rhetoric make us any different than the terrorists?
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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 04:08:57 pm »
Fpqxz, I have to say... I am disappoint.

-_- Seriously, you do realize that Islam is as diverse as... pretty much every other religion, right?  You've got the fundies, the conservatives, the moderates, and the liberals.

The problem is the environment.  A theocracy is pretty much always going to be ruled by fundies and create more fundies.  But nuking the area is just going to make even MORE fundies.

Islam != terrorism.  There's no need to destroy the entire belief system.
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Offline Fpqxz

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 09:11:01 pm »
I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.
And once you've nuked Arabia back to the stone age and (somehow) conquered the rest of the Muslim world, what do you intend to do? The only thing you will have managed to do against Islam at this point is to push its followers further towards misery, reclusion, violence and extremism. As history tells us, in order to truly eradicate an entire religion, you will have to use some combination of religious oppression, proselytizing and genocide. So much for the "greater good".

I think the goal of any sort of wide-ranging Mongol-style conquest of the Islamic world is foolhardy at best, genocidal at worst.  While I would like nothing better than to see violent Islam consigned to the ash heap of history, I don't believe that military action would accomplish this end.  Frankly, that should really be the last resort.  War doesn't prove whose ideology is correct, it only shows who is militarily stronger.  The right combination of scientific & historical education, economic development, and good old-fashioned propaganda, on the other hand, might work.

Quote from: Murdin
Sure, you won't be defeating fundamentalism so much as displacing it. And, of course, you will be the first to try and apply those methods to a belief system with one billion plus followers. But, hey, if you really wish to become the greatest monster in the history of mankind, go ahead.

Hey, I never said I was fully on board with the agenda described in the OP.  Besides, who one considers a "monster" largely depends on what side of history one is on.  Romanians don't consider Vlad Tepes a monster.  The Uzbeks don't consider Tamerlane a monster.  Mongols don't consider Genghis Khan a monster.  The Iranians don't consider the conquering Achaemenid kings (Cyrus, Darius, Xerxes) monsters.  Most Western civilizations don't consider Caesar and Alexander the Great monsters.  I'm sure that if the Hunnic Empire had survived, Attila would be hailed as a national hero there.

Quote from: Murdin
Also, why stop at Mecca and Medina? How can you condemn them, and yet spare Rome and Jerusalem, the embodiments of the two absolute worst aspects of organized religion : its corrupt leadership, and its ability to spread hatred among people?

You'll get no arguments from me on that point.  The only differences are that 1) right now, the West is not in conflict with the Vatican or with Judaism, and 2) neither of these religions has the sort of expansionist doctrines that Islam has (at least, not in the present day).

Quote from: Murdin
Quote from: Yaezakura
That's also mainstream Christian belief about the Bible. And mainstream Jewish belief about the Torah. Etc etc etc.
Well, not quite. Muslims believe that their holy book was literally dictated by God to Muhammad, while Christians only believe that theirs was divinely inspired by Him. Whether this fundamental difference in theology justifies the eradication of Muslims is up to you to decide.

This is basically what I meant.  Biblical literalism is a fairly recent innovation in Christianity.  Quranic literalism has been a feature of (most) of the surviving sects of Islam, though some are a bit more "serious" about it than others.  This alone is hardly justification for genocide, and I am not arguing that it is.  Using one's own religious doctrine as an excuse for violence and subjugation of others, however, is quite another matter, and it needs to end, one way or another.  I would rather it end with some sort of peaceful coexistence.  Whether or not that happens, time will tell.
Read some real news:  Allgov.com, JURIST

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2012, 02:25:32 am »
Bullshit genocidal tendencies aside, it really reinforces the total lack of rational thinking among many of the High Command of the US army. Anyone with a shred of intelligence would have understood that a largely unarmed, impoverished society poses no serious threat to a nuclear power. It's basically childish to imagine otherwise.
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Re: U.S. Military taught officers course on "total war" against Islam
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2012, 02:41:11 am »
From the Guardian:

Quote
A course for US military officers has been teaching that America's enemy is Islam in general and suggesting that the country might ultimately have to obliterate the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina without regard for civilian deaths, following second world war precedents of the nuclear attack on Hiroshima.

The Pentagon suspended the course in late April when a student objected to the material. The FBI also changed some agent training last year after discovering that it, too, was critical of Islam.

Wired magazine has a more detailed article on this, along with a copy of the presentation (warning:  large PDF file).

I will be honest with you, I am not sure how I feel about this.  A global clash of civilizations would be utterly horrific, and would probably dwarf both World Wars in terms of body count.  On the other hand, the defeat of a fundamentalist belief system would probably mean a long-term gain for all humanity.

Naive.  Would the US also invade Europe, Africa and Asia to eliminate the "menace," as they're also becoming quite populous there as well?  Not to mention prison/concentration camps in Canada and the US?  It's a religion, not a race, anyone can become a Muslim and not that many of them are extremist, despite what the popular media decides to portray.

The easiest way to defeat the fundamentalist system is to educate the poor and get them to a level of self-sufficiency.  That would go much further than launching an all-out attack on everyone who owns a Qur'an.  It's the extremist aspect that needs to be eliminated, not the religion itself.
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