International Men's Day 2015 Arguing

[Ultimate Paragon]

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you, and you don't actually think manspreading is a bigger issue than suicide.

You're a fucking idiot. I never said that and you know. I simply stated that "men's issues" as a whole tend to get more credence than when women object to social phenomenon.

Okay, just wanted to make sure.

Well, according to this study, the mother gets sole or primary custody 58.7% of the time.  Fathers only get it 8.9% of the time.

Fuck me... I need everclear. No, literally, I took a shot of it because this is too much stupid for me to handle at once.

First, read your fucking source before making someone else read it. First page it says

Over time, state placement laws have moved from a regime in which placement with the mother was the explicit preference (through most of the past century), through a period in which placement laws tended to be gender-neutral, to the present, where many states have made sharing
placement of the children between the divorcing parents the preferred option (Buehler and Gerard, 1995).

Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago, that my experience working for a judge indicated that modern child custody determinations were more gender-neutral.

Second

Several researchers (Seltzer, 1990; Fox and Kelly, 1995; Christiansen, Dahl, and Rettig, 1990) found that mother-sole placement accounted for over 80 percent of arrangements in various Upper Midwestern states in the mid-1980s; father-sole placement accounted for about 10 percent of cases, and joint placement arrangements accounted for only 2–6 percent of cases. Cancian and Meyer (1998) found that from 1986 to 1994 in Wisconsin the rate of mother-sole placement in divorce judgments fell from just over 80 percent to 74 percent, while joint placement rose from 7 percent to 14 percent. They also found that during this period, shared placement was more likely in cases with higher parental income, when the mother had previously been married, or when the mother was younger. They also found that in cases where the father had legal representation but the mother did not, shared placement or father-sole placement was more likely, but if only the mother had an attorney, then mother-sole placement was the more likely outcome.

Now, there are several things going on here. Look at the first sentence. It states that mothers get custody about 80% of the time. Now, if you read my source, you would know that 91% of custody hearings DO NOT go to court, but are decided by the parents, with the mother getting custody most of the time. So the 80% figure is intentionally misleading for you to cite to.

Second, look at how determinative factors like income and legal representation are.

Third, when it says that in "divorce proceedings" custody was reduced from 80% to 74%, that is another misnomer. In divorce proceedings, the judge assigns a parent to handle the child until a custody hearing can take place at a later date. Which my cite to Chesler shows that men win more often when contested in court.

So, the portions that look like they support your side do not, but actually reinforce mine, and you should really read your work since I'm expected to do so.

True, but this is still a big problem.  Just because things are getting better doesn't mean we shouldn't worry.  Racism didn't end when segregation collapsed.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't object if I gave mine:

http://www.evawintl.org/images/uploads/BasicDataFindings_12-07-09.pdf

According to this study, 15.6 of reports can reliably be determined as false.

I don't think you know how to read. Seven percent of rapes accusations be "unfounded/false." The number drops to six percent by the time of prosecution. In fact, 15.6 only shows up twice in the pdf: once to state that the men plead guilty to a lesser offense and the second to show that 15.6% of rape victims did not have microtrauma associated with the rape. Which, is considerably different from "determined as false."

Yes, but the study found an additional 8.5 percent to be classified as "unfounded/baseless."  That makes 15.6 %.

But, I think that this graphic is helpful

That graphic has some serious flaws.  For one, it assumes one rape per rapist, which means it overestimates the number of rapists.  The reality is that most rapists are repeat offenders, with an average of six victims per rapist.  It also overestimates the unreported rapes.  According to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a pretty big number, but not nearly as big as the graphic claims.

[The_Queen]

(click to show/hide)

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you, and you don't actually think manspreading is a bigger issue than suicide.

You're a fucking idiot. I never said that and you know. I simply stated that "men's issues" as a whole tend to get more credence than when women object to social phenomenon.

Okay, just wanted to make sure.

Great, nothing to debate here.

Well, according to this study, the mother gets sole or primary custody 58.7% of the time.  Fathers only get it 8.9% of the time.

Fuck me... I need everclear. No, literally, I took a shot of it because this is too much stupid for me to handle at once.

First, read your fucking source before making someone else read it. First page it says

Over time, state placement laws have moved from a regime in which placement with the mother was the explicit preference (through most of the past century), through a period in which placement laws tended to be gender-neutral, to the present, where many states have made sharing
placement of the children between the divorcing parents the preferred option (Buehler and Gerard, 1995).

Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago, that my experience working for a judge indicated that modern child custody determinations were more gender-neutral.

Second

Several researchers (Seltzer, 1990; Fox and Kelly, 1995; Christiansen, Dahl, and Rettig, 1990) found that mother-sole placement accounted for over 80 percent of arrangements in various Upper Midwestern states in the mid-1980s; father-sole placement accounted for about 10 percent of cases, and joint placement arrangements accounted for only 2–6 percent of cases. Cancian and Meyer (1998) found that from 1986 to 1994 in Wisconsin the rate of mother-sole placement in divorce judgments fell from just over 80 percent to 74 percent, while joint placement rose from 7 percent to 14 percent. They also found that during this period, shared placement was more likely in cases with higher parental income, when the mother had previously been married, or when the mother was younger. They also found that in cases where the father had legal representation but the mother did not, shared placement or father-sole placement was more likely, but if only the mother had an attorney, then mother-sole placement was the more likely outcome.

Now, there are several things going on here. Look at the first sentence. It states that mothers get custody about 80% of the time. Now, if you read my source, you would know that 91% of custody hearings DO NOT go to court, but are decided by the parents, with the mother getting custody most of the time. So the 80% figure is intentionally misleading for you to cite to.

Second, look at how determinative factors like income and legal representation are.

Third, when it says that in "divorce proceedings" custody was reduced from 80% to 74%, that is another misnomer. In divorce proceedings, the judge assigns a parent to handle the child until a custody hearing can take place at a later date. Which my cite to Chesler shows that men win more often when contested in court.

So, the portions that look like they support your side do not, but actually reinforce mine, and you should really read your work since I'm expected to do so.

True, but this is still a big problem.  Just because things are getting better doesn't mean we shouldn't worry.  Racism didn't end when segregation collapsed.

You ignored all of my points. The metaphor you make is weak because men are more likely to get full custody when they argue for it. If anything, we need to put more protection for women in the court systems to ensure a fair trial.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't object if I gave mine:

http://www.evawintl.org/images/uploads/BasicDataFindings_12-07-09.pdf

According to this study, 15.6 of reports can reliably be determined as false.

I don't think you know how to read. Seven percent of rapes accusations be "unfounded/false." The number drops to six percent by the time of prosecution. In fact, 15.6 only shows up twice in the pdf: once to state that the men plead guilty to a lesser offense and the second to show that 15.6% of rape victims did not have microtrauma associated with the rape. Which, is considerably different from "determined as false."

Yes, but the study found an additional 8.5 percent to be classified as "unfounded/baseless."  That makes 15.6 %.

Okay, so we're debating the number of rapes that are "unfounded/baseless" and whether those automatically amount to false. Now we have a point of contention.

But, I think that this graphic is helpful

[snip]

That graphic has some serious flaws.  For one, it assumes one rape per rapist, which means it overestimates the number of rapists.  The reality is that most rapists are repeat offenders, with an average of six victims per rapist.  It also overestimates the unreported rapes.  According to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a pretty big number, but not nearly as big as the graphic claims.

Another point of contention, what is the real number of rapes and reported rapes to false allegations.

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

[Ultimate Paragon]

(click to show/hide)

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you, and you don't actually think manspreading is a bigger issue than suicide.

You're a fucking idiot. I never said that and you know. I simply stated that "men's issues" as a whole tend to get more credence than when women object to social phenomenon.

Okay, just wanted to make sure.

Great, nothing to debate here.

Well, according to this study, the mother gets sole or primary custody 58.7% of the time.  Fathers only get it 8.9% of the time.

Fuck me... I need everclear. No, literally, I took a shot of it because this is too much stupid for me to handle at once.

First, read your fucking source before making someone else read it. First page it says

Over time, state placement laws have moved from a regime in which placement with the mother was the explicit preference (through most of the past century), through a period in which placement laws tended to be gender-neutral, to the present, where many states have made sharing
placement of the children between the divorcing parents the preferred option (Buehler and Gerard, 1995).

Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago, that my experience working for a judge indicated that modern child custody determinations were more gender-neutral.

Second

Several researchers (Seltzer, 1990; Fox and Kelly, 1995; Christiansen, Dahl, and Rettig, 1990) found that mother-sole placement accounted for over 80 percent of arrangements in various Upper Midwestern states in the mid-1980s; father-sole placement accounted for about 10 percent of cases, and joint placement arrangements accounted for only 2–6 percent of cases. Cancian and Meyer (1998) found that from 1986 to 1994 in Wisconsin the rate of mother-sole placement in divorce judgments fell from just over 80 percent to 74 percent, while joint placement rose from 7 percent to 14 percent. They also found that during this period, shared placement was more likely in cases with higher parental income, when the mother had previously been married, or when the mother was younger. They also found that in cases where the father had legal representation but the mother did not, shared placement or father-sole placement was more likely, but if only the mother had an attorney, then mother-sole placement was the more likely outcome.

Now, there are several things going on here. Look at the first sentence. It states that mothers get custody about 80% of the time. Now, if you read my source, you would know that 91% of custody hearings DO NOT go to court, but are decided by the parents, with the mother getting custody most of the time. So the 80% figure is intentionally misleading for you to cite to.

Second, look at how determinative factors like income and legal representation are.

Third, when it says that in "divorce proceedings" custody was reduced from 80% to 74%, that is another misnomer. In divorce proceedings, the judge assigns a parent to handle the child until a custody hearing can take place at a later date. Which my cite to Chesler shows that men win more often when contested in court.

So, the portions that look like they support your side do not, but actually reinforce mine, and you should really read your work since I'm expected to do so.

True, but this is still a big problem.  Just because things are getting better doesn't mean we shouldn't worry.  Racism didn't end when segregation collapsed.

You ignored all of my points. The metaphor you make is weak because men are more likely to get full custody when they argue for it. If anything, we need to put more protection for women in the court systems to ensure a fair trial.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't object if I gave mine:

http://www.evawintl.org/images/uploads/BasicDataFindings_12-07-09.pdf

According to this study, 15.6 of reports can reliably be determined as false.

I don't think you know how to read. Seven percent of rapes accusations be "unfounded/false." The number drops to six percent by the time of prosecution. In fact, 15.6 only shows up twice in the pdf: once to state that the men plead guilty to a lesser offense and the second to show that 15.6% of rape victims did not have microtrauma associated with the rape. Which, is considerably different from "determined as false."

Yes, but the study found an additional 8.5 percent to be classified as "unfounded/baseless."  That makes 15.6 %.

Okay, so we're debating the number of rapes that are "unfounded/baseless" and whether those automatically amount to false. Now we have a point of contention.

Looks like it.

But, I think that this graphic is helpful

[snip]

That graphic has some serious flaws.  For one, it assumes one rape per rapist, which means it overestimates the number of rapists.  The reality is that most rapists are repeat offenders, with an average of six victims per rapist.  It also overestimates the unreported rapes.  According to RAINN, 68% of rapes go unreported.  That's a pretty big number, but not nearly as big as the graphic claims.

Another point of contention, what is the real number of rapes and reported rapes to false allegations.

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

[The_Queen]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

[Svata]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Fucking hell, UP. Fucking. Hell. No, you are wrong. It is about awareness for (generally medical) problems, not bullshit. When at least 68% of rapes are unreported, the problem isn't that people are reporting too much rape.

[Ultimate Paragon]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Fucking hell, UP. Fucking. Hell. No, you are wrong. It is about awareness for (generally medical) problems, not bullshit. When at least 68% of rapes are unreported, the problem isn't that people are reporting too much rape.

I half-agree with you.  I think more common problems should get first priority.

[Eiki-mun]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Hi, I guess I fit both of those categories. I support IMD and I'm pretty sure I'm not UP. While false rape claims are obviously a serious problem, I don't really think its one that can be fixed by awareness, and really, I don't see it as different from other, um... I'm not sure how you'd call it, so I'll go with "false accusations of crime". If anything, I would say that IMD would be better off spreading awareness of things like the high rate of male suicide which is a much greater problem, or the utter lack of domestic violence support for men in this and other countries. When you can be laughed at or even arrested yourself for reporting the domestic violence of your female spouse as a male, and this is a regular, common thing, I'd say that's a far more serious problem.

[guizonde]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Hi, I guess I fit both of those categories. I support IMD and I'm pretty sure I'm not UP. While false rape claims are obviously a serious problem, I don't really think its one that can be fixed by awareness, and really, I don't see it as different from other, um... I'm not sure how you'd call it, so I'll go with "false accusations of crime". If anything, I would say that IMD would be better off spreading awareness of things like the high rate of male suicide which is a much greater problem, or the utter lack of domestic violence support for men in this and other countries. When you can be laughed at or even arrested yourself for reporting the domestic violence of your female spouse as a male, and this is a regular, common thing, I'd say that's a far more serious problem.

too true. as an abuse survivor myself, i can say that i never even thought of reporting it, especially in a very macho country where "put that bitch in her place, you pussy" is said by cops.

false rape charges are a problem, but in order to get those lower, we should probably target rapists in the first place. if rapes lower, then rape charges will get scrutinized more due to their relative rarity.

finally, regarding domestic violence, suicide and paternity rights, i think those should be the main aims of imd. they're the most likely issues to have a positive outcome, seeing as how testicular and prostate cancer awareness are already pretty prevalent. maybe add advanced androgenic alopecia to the list, since a lot of men are insecure about their hairline.

[Askold]

I just want to point out that just because something isn't common it does not mean that preventing it isn't important. Like plane crashes and testicle cancer for example. (I am not comparing those to false rape accusations, those are just examples of things that are rare but are not unimportant.)

But Eiki-Mun does have a good point that false-rape accusations are not the most important thing that IMD should provide awareness of.

Anyway, I am now convinced (after reading several articles about crime and punishment) that the best way to prevent crime is to increase the odds of the criminal getting caught. Severe punishment does not really work as a way to "scare potential criminals" but if the odds of getting caught and convicted AND that conviction being quick are high crime goes down.

Finland for example has low rate of repeat offenders despite rather weaksauce punishments. Although our biggest problem at the moment is the slowness of court system.

[Sigmaleph]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Hi.

I don't think I've discussed support for IMD before, but yes, I do think there are problems that are unique to men that need addressing.

I don't think false rape accusations should be the forefront of that effort because, well, it's a fucking minefield. False accusations of any crime are a problem that need solving, and sure, false accusations of rape happen more to men than to women, because accusations of rape in general happen more to men than to women (if there is not true someone please correct me, I haven't checked the statistics any time recently). The problem is trying to solve this via awareness raising (which is what IMD does), because awareness raising doesn't get you better forensic techniques. What it can get you, best case scenario, is people being more aware of false accusations of rape and being less likely to believe future accusations, which of course just trades a decrease in the false positive rate for an increase in the false negative rate. That's not a social improvement, you're just changing victims.

There are things where awareness raising can help without harming other groups. For obvious reasons I tend to be concerned about enforced masculinity, a problem which definitely affects men (and people who aren't men but are perceived to be). Telling people "hey, don't be such an asshole against people who don't act manly, it doesn't hurt anyone" doesn't have the same tradeoff problems. (that's just an example, I don't mean to say "the only problems IMD should address are the ones that affect me, someone who is not a man!")

Awareness raising is not a neutral tool (it's often an ineffective tool, but not always). False rape accusations is not the kind of subject where it can be used best, there is risk of being harmful on net if applied to that problem, and it detracts attention from other issues where the awareness raising helps more.

[Svata]

So, in essence, you are arguing that International Men's day is needed because false rape allegations are common and amount to  a huge problem for men, which the world needs to address.

I wouldn't say "common", but they are a serious problem, one that ought to be tackled.  And I think IMD would be a big help in that regard.

I would like someone's opinion on this quote from Paragon that I bolded. The only request I make is that this someone not be Paragon and that this person support international men's day. The more opinions on this, the better.

Hi.

I don't think I've discussed support for IMD before, but yes, I do think there are problems that are unique to men that need addressing.

I don't think false rape accusations should be the forefront of that effort because, well, it's a fucking minefield. False accusations of any crime are a problem that need solving, and sure, false accusations of rape happen more to men than to women, because accusations of rape in general happen more to men than to women (if there is not true someone please correct me, I haven't checked the statistics any time recently). The problem is trying to solve this via awareness raising (which is what IMD does), because awareness raising doesn't get you better forensic techniques. What it can get you, best case scenario, is people being more aware of false accusations of rape and being less likely to believe future accusations, which of course just trades a decrease in the false positive rate for an increase in the false negative rate. That's not a social improvement, you're just changing victims.

There are things where awareness raising can help without harming other groups. For obvious reasons I tend to be concerned about enforced masculinity, a problem which definitely affects men (and people who aren't men but are perceived to be). Telling people "hey, don't be such an asshole against people who don't act manly, it doesn't hurt anyone" doesn't have the same tradeoff problems. (that's just an example, I don't mean to say "the only problems IMD should address are the ones that affect me, someone who is not a man!")

Awareness raising is not a neutral tool (it's often an ineffective tool, but not always). False rape accusations is not the kind of subject where it can be used best, there is risk of being harmful on net if applied to that problem, and it detracts attention from other issues where the awareness raising helps more.

[/thread]

[The_Queen]

And I think that ceases my involvement in this thread. Paragon concede most points, or we debated them into the ground, the only thing remaining from Paragon was the role that false accusation of rape should play in IMD. I asked IMD supporters how they felt about such inclusion, and the response has been pretty negative. While I think IMD is silly, I will not let one lone person speak for the group. Since the group generally feels that false rape allegations should not be part of IMD, I have nothing left to debate Paragon about. As such, I will graciously excuse myself from this thread. It has been a pleasure.