Author Topic: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet  (Read 4444 times)

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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« on: October 10, 2012, 10:52:58 am »
So I was just thinking about one of the common criticisms of Muhammed today.  about how he's just a dirty childfucker.  As I thought about it, I remembered the story of Romeo and Juliet.  No, seriously.  Let me elaborate.

Okay, so nearly everyone knows the story of Romeo and Juliet.  It's a classic from medieval times.  One thing that people seem to forget is that Juliet was only 13.  Not only was she 13, but she was considered and "Old Maid" as I recall.  Hell, as I remember studying, that was meant as a slur.

Quote
1. Offensive A woman who has remained single beyond the conventional age for marrying.

Hell, even Mary was pregnant at 12 or 13.  If you don't buy the whole "virgin birth" think, then that means she was knocked up around then.  Aisha was about 9 or 10 when she and Muhammed had sex.  That's not much older.

I guess my point is that I think it's a little bit unfair for people to attack that part of the Muslim religion on this issue when:

1.  It was a completely different culture and time, and there's at least some evidence that this was more common, likely due to shorter human lifespans.

2.  The same people attacking Muhammed for what he did don't go after people like Shakespeare, nor do they likely think about how old Mary was when she was pregnant.

I dunno.  What do you guys think?  Is it really fair to apply today's standards to yesterday's culture, especially if you can't do it evenly?
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Offline armandtanzarian

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 11:07:10 am »
I never bought into that either. Although I think A Song of Ice and Fire pretty much innoculated me to expressing shock at child marriages in old times. Among others.

In any case, Muhammad is today more legend than fact. A bit like Reagan, if someone made a religion around him that lasted 1400 years. Its what Muslims are doing today that concern me, not what their founder did then.

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 11:19:22 am »
To the question of whether it's right or fair to judge the ancients by our standards...eh. I have kinda mixed feelings about that.

Do I find child marriage wrong? Yes.

Was it the custom at the time? Also, yes.

Would my opinions be different if I was born and raised in that time and culture? Very probably.

It's not a simple question, and you can set philosophers to running in circles for years with it.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 11:21:01 am »
Fundie: mary was a virgin thereby not an old maid. 
In all seriousness this was standard for the time.  Partially it was necessity due to high rates of death.

Offline Yaezakura

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 11:46:06 am »
Simply put, when 40 is considered old age, and probably half the kids you have will die without reaching reproductive ages, you don't wait until half your lifespan is over before you start to reproduce. It's not really an issue of morality--it was what humanity, as a whole, had to do to survive. It was biology.

Modern standards for things like adulthood and physical/mental maturity simply aren't applicable to 1,400 years ago.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 01:43:38 pm »
This.
Seeing how high infant mortality was back then. 

Offline starseeker

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 08:25:39 am »
Though I think with Romeo and Juliet, the young marriage age was because they were a noble family, think I saw something that the normal age for marriage in the 1500s was in the early 20s when the couple had saved up to buy a house.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 08:29:42 am »
Simply put, when 40 is considered old age, and probably half the kids you have will die without reaching reproductive ages, you don't wait until half your lifespan is over before you start to reproduce. It's not really an issue of morality--it was what humanity, as a whole, had to do to survive. It was biology.

Modern standards for things like adulthood and physical/mental maturity simply aren't applicable to 1,400 years ago.
Bit of a misconception there, but people back then did typically live a lot longer than 40. Infant mortality was quite high and as such brought the overall average lifespan down to around 40, but someone who did survive infancy could be reasonably expected to live a good 60 years, if not longer.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 08:39:05 am »
Well similar reasoning they needed to have a lot of kids with the idea some don't survive.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 08:40:09 am »
Of course, but the idea that they had to start breeding at age 13 because they'd be dead by 40 is total nonsense.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 05:34:50 pm »
Not total nonsense.  Partial.  After all, you never know when the next plague was gonna rip through.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 09:16:10 pm »
Also I think the number of deaths from childbirth were pretty high back then.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 11:06:52 pm »
Not total nonsense.  Partial.  After all, you never know when the next plague was gonna rip through.
Dude, the plague happened once. Once, throughout all of recorded history in Europe.

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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 12:26:46 am »
Not total nonsense.  Partial.  After all, you never know when the next plague was gonna rip through.
Dude, the plague happened once. Once, throughout all of recorded history in Europe.

The Black Plague (or "Black Death") pandemic happened once, but there have been multiple outbreaks of bubonic plague throughout European history. There were some pretty noteworthy outbreaks in England, France, Italy and Spain during the 17th and 18th centuries, and the earliest known epidemic took place roughly 1500 years ago in the Byzantine Empire (the Plague of Justinian). Hell, minor outbreaks of the disease still occur today, albeit in much more isolated clusters.

Plus, "plague" is really just a generic word for any epidemic or pandemic, even though it's usually associated with bubonic plague.
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Re: Muhammed, Aisha, Romeo, and Juliet
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 12:29:56 am »
Not total nonsense.  Partial.  After all, you never know when the next plague was gonna rip through.
Dude, the plague happened once. Once, throughout all of recorded history in Europe.

The Black Plague (or "Black Death") pandemic happened once, but there have been multiple outbreaks of bubonic plague throughout European history. There were some pretty noteworthy outbreaks in England, France, Italy and Spain during the 17th and 18th centuries, and the earliest known epidemic took place roughly 1500 years ago in the Byzantine Empire (the Plague of Justinian). Hell, minor outbreaks of the disease still occur today, albeit in much more isolated clusters.

Plus, "plague" is really just a generic word for any epidemic or pandemic, even though it's usually associated with bubonic plague.

Oh fine. Still, it's hardly a regular enough event to warrant basing the species' breeding habits around it.