Author Topic: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!  (Read 12256 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2015, 10:16:15 pm »
@ U.P. & Lt. Fred

Well, another mass-shooting hasn't happened, "Down Under" right?

Perhaps the real key to this mess is not so much just a need for stricter gun laws.....that's only the bandage or half of what needs to be done.

The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

That's what's important. A lot of our social ills could be helped if we focused on treating the person on the inside. The hearts, minds & souls need healing.

There needs to be a Holistic movement based on awareness I better treatment of mental & emotional illness and a strong pushing of values like love, empathy & cooperation. Perhaps some new charities & foundations can be founded, better research into the human brain.

Bring back the asylums and have them for ONLY the WORST CASE scenarios (rather than everybody shipping whoever for whatever reason there like in the old days) and make sure they are well-funded (both via government & privately) and well-run as the nurturing places of therapy they should be.

And finally: QUIT PLASTERING THE SHOOTER'S NAME & MUG ALL OVER THE STUPID NEWS, YOU SILLY NEWS PEOPLE!!!

It'll take a lot to do this but if society can put effort into it. It can be done! :)


<snip>
I don't know if you noticed, but the topic of this thread is potential gun control in America. Some fundamentalist Mulsim loonies in Africa and the Middle East has sweet fuck all to do with anything in this thread.

If you want to discuss this sort of thing, start a new thread rather than clogging up unrelated topics.

Thank you, Art! I couldn't say it better, myself.

Begone, TheContrarian!

« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 pm by Barbarella »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2015, 10:21:02 pm »
@ U.P. & Lt. Fred

Well, another mass-shooting hasn't happened, "Down Under" right?

That's true, though irrelevant. The sample size is too small to be statistically meaningful.

Gun suicides are WAAAAAY down, and that really matters.

Quote
Perhaps the real key to this mess is not so much just a need for stricter gun laws...

Stricter guns laws and a proper health insurance system that covers primary mental health well, everywhere, for everyone, free of charge.

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 10:23:49 pm »
Making-fun-of-The-Contrarian-thread is

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6565.0
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Barbarella

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2015, 11:36:42 pm »

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.

I meant along with gun-safety laws, we need to put better funding and effort into psychiatric care and helping those with issues "upstairs".

Better mental health awareness. Not "Tackle Psychology"...that came out all wrong.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 11:41:21 pm by Barbarella »

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2015, 11:45:59 am »

Quote
The U.S.A. needs to tackle PSYCHOLOGY!

What sort of legislation would you enact to do that? Seems airy fairy and meaningless.

I meant along with gun-safety laws, we need to put better funding and effort into psychiatric care and helping those with issues "upstairs".

Better mental health awareness. Not "Tackle Psychology"...that came out all wrong.

But I've already pointed out how treating mass shootings as a mental health issue is not only patently absurd, but purely a smokescreen to detract from the real issue. Fact of the matter is, it is easy to say that "[Cho Seung Hui/ Eric Harris/ Dylan Klebold/ Adam Lanza/ James Eagan Holmes/ Jared Lee Loughner] is crazy." They just shot a lot of people and nobody really knows why. Nobody will step up and defend them from accusations of insanity or mental health issues, and several will lob those adjectives out of anger. Unfortunately though, it is a giant non-issue. We as a society of laws cannot just put random people in prison before they commit a crime absent some pretty convincing evidence before the fact. Combine this with the fact that the same gun group that cries mental health whenever there is a shooting is the first to defend the "gun rights" of domestic abusers or people with violent criminal convictions, and, well, what do you expect? Turns out that once you scratch the surface, you see that mental illness is a scape goat so that violent men with masculinity-issues can still possess firearms.

Further compounding this smokescreen is the fact that those diagnosed as mentally ill are less likely to shoot people than those who are not diagnosed. Metzl et al. Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms, 105 American Journal of Public Health 240 (2015) ("Yet surprisingly little population-level evidence supports the notion that individuals diagnosed with mental illness are more likely than anyone else to commit gun crimes. According to Appel-baum, less than 3% to 5% of US crimes involve people with mental illness, and the percentages of crimes that involve guns are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness"). Combine this with the fact that the diagnosed mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of gun violence, and you have a full-blown smokescreen on your hands.

The internal logic of the claim that mental illness is to blame for our gun problems simply belies itself. If we truly accepted the NRA's logic as correct, the logic that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"* or that "Guns are responsible for 2.5 million defensive uses each year." If these slogans or fabricated studies meant anything, the NRA would lead the pack when it came to arming the mentally ill, as they are the more likely that Joe Six-Pack to be victimized by gun violence. But they don't, and this shows that self-defense is not what the NRA cares about. Disarming only the mentally ill cynically demonizes part of our society who are already among the least well off so that gun-owners can continue to enjoy their pretty little toys. Gun-owners cry "individual rights" and "self-defense" while cynically removing those "rights" from another class of people. It simply says "take guns away from them, not from me" and that is the real problem with the gun control debate: instead of asking, "what is good public policy," the pro-gun side asks "what policies will allow me to keep my man-toys?"

*The notion is that society as a whole must defend itself. It focuses on a "good person in society" standing up for himself (cause it's always a white man) and others to defend their collective selves.

As for UP citing that Australia link, it's bullshit. I just don't care enough to waste another hour on this, when I could be getting paid.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 11:48:39 am by The_Queen »
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2015, 12:32:55 pm »
But I've already pointed out how treating mass shootings as a mental health issue is not only patently absurd, but purely a smokescreen to detract from the real issue. Fact of the matter is, it is easy to say that "[Cho Seung Hui/ Eric Harris/ Dylan Klebold/ Adam Lanza/ James Eagan Holmes/ Jared Lee Loughner] is crazy." They just shot a lot of people and nobody really knows why. Nobody will step up and defend them from accusations of insanity or mental health issues, and several will lob those adjectives out of anger.


Cho was deemed mentally ill and in need of hospitalization in 2005.  Holmes was seeing several mental health professionals.  Adam Lanza showed numerous symptoms of mental illnesses more severe than what he was diagnosed with.  Eric Harris was ordered to take antidepressants for anger management therapy, while Dylan Klebold had a weird complex where he hated himself but simultaneously considered himself "godlike".  You have two people who were known to have serious mental illnesses, and three who almost certainly did.

Unfortunately though, it is a giant non-issue. We as a society of laws cannot just put random people in prison before they commit a crime absent some pretty convincing evidence before the fact.


I don't want to put people away, I just want to make sure they get the help they need.

Combine this with the fact that the same gun group that cries mental health whenever there is a shooting is the first to defend the "gun rights" of domestic abusers or people with violent criminal convictions, and, well, what do you expect? Turns out that once you scratch the surface, you see that mental illness is a scape goat so that violent men with masculinity-issues can still possess firearms..


I don't think violent criminals should be allowed to own guns.  The NRA isn't representative of American gun owners as a whole.  Really, it represents arms manufacturers more than anything.

And I gotta love your stereotyping of gun owners.

Further compounding this smokescreen is the fact that those diagnosed as mentally ill are less likely to shoot people than those who are not diagnosed. Metzl et al. Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms, 105 American Journal of Public Health 240 (2015) ("Yet surprisingly little population-level evidence supports the notion that individuals diagnosed with mental illness are more likely than anyone else to commit gun crimes. According to Appel-baum, less than 3% to 5% of US crimes involve people with mental illness, and the percentages of crimes that involve guns are lower than the national average for persons not diagnosed with mental illness"). Combine this with the fact that the diagnosed mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of gun violence, and you have a full-blown smokescreen on your hands.

For gun crimes in general, that may be true, but what about mass shootings?

The internal logic of the claim that mental illness is to blame for our gun problems simply belies itself. If we truly accepted the NRA's logic as correct, the logic that "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"* or that "Guns are responsible for 2.5 million defensive uses each year." If these slogans or fabricated studies meant anything, the NRA would lead the pack when it came to arming the mentally ill, as they are the more likely that Joe Six-Pack to be victimized by gun violence. But they don't, and this shows that self-defense is not what the NRA cares about. Disarming only the mentally ill cynically demonizes part of our society who are already among the least well off so that gun-owners can continue to enjoy their pretty little toys.

I think the problem is more that there's a certain image that comes to mind when somebody brings up mental illness.  When the average American thinks "mentally ill person", they think of violent maniacs, charismatic sociopaths, or delusional freaks.

By the way, there have been at least nine mass shootings stopped by armed citizens:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-that-were-stopped-by-someone-wit#.dgkda9DLb

Gun-owners cry "individual rights" and "self-defense" while cynically removing those "rights" from another class of people. It simply says "take guns away from them, not from me" and that is the real problem with the gun control debate: instead of asking, "what is good public policy," the pro-gun side asks "what policies will allow me to keep my man-toys?"

And thank you again for stereotyping.  If you want to discuss this in good faith, I'd appreciate if you stopped taking potshots at strawmen.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2015, 12:01:33 am »
I never said that those with mental/emotional illness are all violent nor am I saying that people doing bad stuff is because they're sick. I meant that, along with gun laws we need to work on people's character & psychology. Heal the human on "the inside".

And, of course, deal with this hyper-masculinity problem and deal with issues concerning maleness. We need to teach that it's okay for a man to not be macho and help guys with coping with the various insecurities involving being male in our society.

I'm sure you can read-between-the lines and get the gist of what I'm trying to say in oh-so-many-words.

Sometimes I get the impression that we all get confused here because we use certain terms & words but we all put different meanings and implications to said terms & words.

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2015, 12:22:03 am »
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2015, 12:26:44 am »
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?

Offline niam2023

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2015, 12:32:27 am »
Honestly, when people are getting gunned down at this rate, I have honestly stopped caring about the "rights" of "law abiding citizens" / "legal gun owners". Gun control is the only way to go from here, combined with comprehensive alteration of the way we deal with mentally ill people.

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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2015, 01:19:40 am »
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?

The same way you determine licensing procedures for handling other dangerous objects. You're smarter than this, UP, so quit pretending to be so clueless.
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Offline guizonde

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2015, 07:25:54 am »
The ready availability of guns is the main issue we have with shootings in the United States. The most straightforward way to deal with that would be to pass nationwide gun control legislation with the critical feature of taking guns away from people who cannot demonstrate that they are responsible gun owners.

If anything I said is something that American culture cannot accept, then America is unwilling to deal with the issue of gun violence.

And how exactly does one determine what a "responsible gun owner" is?

The same way you determine licensing procedures for handling other dangerous objects. You're smarter than this, UP, so quit pretending to be so clueless.

if you make it like the dmv, nobody will want a gun in the first place, too much hassle.  ;D
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2015, 09:07:20 am »
Ace, guizonde! XD
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Offline guizonde

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2015, 09:11:26 am »
say, should we indeed make a "shootings mega-thread" or something? it seems like a good idea.
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Offline Svata

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Re: Another Shooting. This Is Getting RIDICULOUS!
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2015, 10:10:39 am »
Probably.
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