Author Topic: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants  (Read 31949 times)

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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 06:12:18 pm »
About... what, exactly?  I'm trying to think of a political position Santorum holds that I might consider even vaguely correct in the most hypothetical sense, and I'm failing.  About abortion?  Nope.  Birth control?  Ha.  No.  About gay marriage?  Color me contrary, because I'm pretty sure he's wrong there, too.

If you mean in the sense of whether or not I've seriously considered his political positions, then yes, I have.  That's why I disagree with him.
So, how do you know he's wrong? Sorry, I'm not being contrary, I don't actually agree with him, I just see a lot of flaming of the guy and very little discussion about why he's wrong, if he's wrong.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2012, 06:14:46 pm »
Ever stop to consider that Santorum may be right?

Right about what?

Offline Barbarella

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2012, 06:16:35 pm »
Crazy Christo-Fundy wants a spiritual war against perfectly normal sane Christians.

Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 06:23:52 pm »
Crazy Christo-Fundy wants a spiritual war against perfectly normal sane Christians.
Thats the sort of commentary I'm talking about.
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 06:26:11 pm »
Ever stop to consider that Santorum may be right?

Right about what?
Anything? Everything? For a brief moment, imagine that his idea of God and morality is the correct one. Now, if you're sure it's not, why not?

He's a crazy fundie is not by itself a satisfactory answer.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 06:30:34 pm »
You can't ask us if he's right about anything by throwing such a broad statement like that out.  You have to give specifics.

Ironbite-what, exactly, is he right about?

Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 06:33:15 pm »
You can't ask us if he's right about anything by throwing such a broad statement like that out.  You have to give specifics.

Ironbite-what, exactly, is he right about?
I didn't say he is right, I asked if you had ever considered the possibility that he may be.

Or do you simply start from the position that anything he says is wrong because you don't like it?
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 06:34:20 pm »
There is no possibility he's right about anything.  He's a hateful man who gets his thoughts from a 2000 year old book.  There is nothing he's right about at all.

Ironbite-well cept for saying the sky is blue but he's even wrong there from a scientific standpoint.

Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2012, 09:59:12 pm »
Look, Pod, I'm sure he's right about one or two things.  He probably opposes murder.  It's unlikely he'd support genocide, say.  But his main political positions are wrong, so far as we're concerned.  We're pro-choice, with good reason.  He wants to go back to the days of back-alley abortions.  And that's not an exaggeration for humor's sake.  He actually said that.  He opposes access to birth control.  That's only a tenable position if you believe human sexuality is something to be ashamed of unless it's for procreation.  Even married couples have good reason to want to have access to birth control.  He's opposed to gay rights.  Gays are people just like the rest of us, and they deserve just as much chance to be happy.

For his religious position...  Pod, the vast majority of us started out Christian.  Many of us grew up in fundy homes.  We didn't just wake up one day and think, "Golly, I sure am tired of being a Christian.  I guess I'll try something new."  We came to our current conclusions carefully.  I know it was frightening for me at times.  I experienced a lot of doubt.  But over time, I felt I couldn't honestly come to any other conclusion (I'm a deist, by the way).  The way you're phrasing it, you make us sound like spoiled children who refuse to give our vegetables a try.  Give us more credit than that.

Yes, I've given Santorum's positions a lot of thought, and I am unable to believe in his God.  Even if I did, it wouldn't give him, or me, or anyone the right to force others to follow that God.  His religious beliefs are not--cannot--of themselves be sufficient reason to allow him to dictate how other people live their lives.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:01:52 pm by Jack Mann »
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 09:05:22 am »
Look, Pod, I'm sure he's right about one or two things.  He probably opposes murder.  It's unlikely he'd support genocide, say.  But his main political positions are wrong, so far as we're concerned.  We're pro-choice, with good reason.  He wants to go back to the days of back-alley abortions.  And that's not an exaggeration for humor's sake.  He actually said that.  He opposes access to birth control.  That's only a tenable position if you believe human sexuality is something to be ashamed of unless it's for procreation.  Even married couples have good reason to want to have access to birth control.  He's opposed to gay rights.  Gays are people just like the rest of us, and they deserve just as much chance to be happy.

For his religious position...  Pod, the vast majority of us started out Christian.  Many of us grew up in fundy homes.  We didn't just wake up one day and think, "Golly, I sure am tired of being a Christian.  I guess I'll try something new."  We came to our current conclusions carefully.  I know it was frightening for me at times.  I experienced a lot of doubt.  But over time, I felt I couldn't honestly come to any other conclusion (I'm a deist, by the way).  The way you're phrasing it, you make us sound like spoiled children who refuse to give our vegetables a try.  Give us more credit than that.

Yes, I've given Santorum's positions a lot of thought, and I am unable to believe in his God.  Even if I did, it wouldn't give him, or me, or anyone the right to force others to follow that God.  His religious beliefs are not--cannot--of themselves be sufficient reason to allow him to dictate how other people live their lives.
I think you're missing my point, what if, hypothetically, his religious convictions are correct? That is, there is a God, and He thinks the way Santorum thinks He does?
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Offline Jack Bauer

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 09:50:09 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 09:52:35 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked
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Offline Ranger_Joe

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2012, 10:19:08 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked

Ok, well if we are going to do that, then we have to use their specifics. Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful.

If his version was absolutely correct, I would still not agree with it because it goes against what is good and decent in my mind. Any God who creates people to suffer for eternity or puts them in these horrible situations is an evil god undeserving of worship. If that means that I have to suffer for eternity after I die, then so be it. I will not bow to a tyrant and acknowledge the degradation and oppression of certain people because of the choices they make.

Good enough? Or should I list the many reasons why the Bible is a vile, vile source of personal morals?
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 10:27:28 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked

Ok, well if we are going to do that, then we have to use their specifics. Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful.

If his version was absolutely correct, I would still not agree with it because it goes against what is good and decent in my mind. Any God who creates people to suffer for eternity or puts them in these horrible situations is an evil god undeserving of worship. If that means that I have to suffer for eternity after I die, then so be it. I will not bow to a tyrant and acknowledge the degradation and oppression of certain people because of the choices they make.

Good enough? Or should I list the many reasons why the Bible is a vile, vile source of personal morals?
Someone else missing my point, I wasn't asking for a defence or justification of your personal theology, I asked a straight forward question, have you ever considered that Santorum may be right? Yes or no?
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Offline Ranger_Joe

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 10:30:01 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked

Ok, well if we are going to do that, then we have to use their specifics. Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful.

If his version was absolutely correct, I would still not agree with it because it goes against what is good and decent in my mind. Any God who creates people to suffer for eternity or puts them in these horrible situations is an evil god undeserving of worship. If that means that I have to suffer for eternity after I die, then so be it. I will not bow to a tyrant and acknowledge the degradation and oppression of certain people because of the choices they make.

Good enough? Or should I list the many reasons why the Bible is a vile, vile source of personal morals?
Someone else missing my point, I wasn't asking for a defence or justification of your personal theology, I asked a straight forward question, have you ever considered that Santorum may be right? Yes or no?

No. If he is, however, see above.
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