FSTDT Forums
Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: davedan on February 06, 2012, 12:53:00 am
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There I said it. This is a bit of a tangent off the Petty Prayers thread.
I like the Lord's prayer, not as a christian, because I am not a Christian, nor for any religious meaning. Nor do I have any illusions that it was first constructed by a person named Jesus. But for an examination of the words of the second part as it appears in Luke:
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation."
Give us just what we need for day.
Forgive us what we owe you and we forgive what we owe others.
I really rather like that it is something that I think is helpful and while self involved is also selfless.
There that's my dirty secret out.
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So do you like the entire prayer, or just that part?
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Pretty much that part although you know it's basically half of it.
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I've always liked the 23rd Psalm and Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.
I still have The Lord's Prayer memorized from when I was a kid.
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I'm more partial to the Song of Solomon...
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I'm more partial to the Song of Solomon...
Hooray for Bible Porn! :D
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Pretty much that part although you know it's basically half of it.
Yeah, but the first half is kind of meaningless if you aren’t Christian. That’s just, “God, you are great and we wanna do whatever you say!”
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There is a way of looking at the first half which I kind of like to -
At the time when the Lord's Prayer was first started - Probably around the 1st century AD or slightly earlier (given that a version is in the Didache)
Our father
Who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
- Now there are a couple of ways of looking at this. Firstly in an eschatological sense -that is 'thy kingdom come' - so that the world ends.
In a zionist nationalist sense - at the time Judea was occupied by the romans so the Kingdom could be a jewish state.
Or as an imploration for a utopian society. To make the world like the kingdom of heaven. I don't mind the last sense.
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Yeah. But you also got the “Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven” bit.
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Or we could look at it in a scatological sense, which is to say it's kind of shitty to hope for the end of the world.
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The part of the Lord's Prayer that a lot of self-labeled Christians need to re-read is this bit:"And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." In other words, Jesus himself said to request that God treat us the exact same way we treat other people.
Gonna be a HELL of a lot of really surprised "Christians" when they meet their maker...." Gee, I'm Sorry There, Bob, But I Swear To Me That You Kept Praying That I Treat You The Same Way You Were Treating Others, And All I See Here Is A Long, Long List Of How You Kept Trying To Deny Others Happiness Based On The Lameass Fact They Were Different From You. Tough Luck, Bob, And Say Hi To Lou For Me When You Get Down There, OK?"
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They'd never do that. It's too Christlike.
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The theme song to The Vicar of Dibley is Psalm 23 set to music. It's gorgeous.
I also have a Youtube playlist of religious songs that I like because damn Catholic church music sounds awesome.
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The only reason my grandmother goes to church is for the atmosphere and the music. She said that it was RUINED FOREVER when they translated the prayers from Latin to English, though.
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The prayer's OK. The prayers are often obnoxious.
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Or we could look at it in a scatological sense, which is to say it's kind of shitty to hope for the end of the world.
And this is why I love you MN
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The prayer's OK. The prayers are often obnoxious.
Maybe you should hyphenate the word "prayers" to get "pray-ers", because the English language is frankly quite obnoxious sometimes with all its irregular nouns and stuff.
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I heard this one poem in Classical Kids that was pretty cool, though it might have been enhanced by the Handel in the background. It went something like, "[Something something something], your angel keeps silent above. Dream peaceful, dream sweet, His morning hymn wakes you in love."
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The spiritual dancing group I occasionally go to has a dance cycle based on the Aramaic wording of the Lord's Prayer; one dance for every line of it. The cycle in total is 90-100min long and I wish it would be longer-it-is-so-awesome.
The translation and interpretation that they provide with it is a bit different than the standard Christian one, and while I'm aware that it just as well is made to fit their beliefs, it's still an interesting perspective. For example, we interpret the "bread" as a metaphor for any physical and spiritual needs.
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Or we could look at it in a scatological sense, which is to say it's kind of shitty to hope for the end of the world.
I suppose there’s that.
The part of the Lord's Prayer that a lot of self-labeled Christians need to re-read is this bit:"And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." In other words, Jesus himself said to request that God treat us the exact same way we treat other people.
That plus the Golden Rule. That Jesus fella was pretty big on reciprocity, wasn’t he?
Well, except when it came to being mean. He did say he didn’t like the “eye for an eye” bit, right?
The only reason my grandmother goes to church is for the atmosphere and the music. She said that it was RUINED FOREVER when they translated the prayers from Latin to English, though.
How dare they make it easier to understand what the hell I’m praying for! :P
The translation and interpretation that they provide with it is a bit different than the standard Christian one, and while I'm aware that it just as well is made to fit their beliefs, it's still an interesting perspective. For example, we interpret the "bread" as a metaphor for any physical and spiritual needs.
Considering that Christianity also has that bit about “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word from the mouth of God,” I am thinking that the Christian interpretation also has a bit of that metaphor.
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That plus the Golden Rule. That Jesus fella was pretty big on reciprocity, wasn’t he?
Well, except when it came to being mean. He did say he didn’t like the “eye for an eye” bit, right?also has a bit of that metaphor.
Mathew 5:38-48
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you: Love your enemiesi and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Kind of hard to find many people who live up to that, Christian or otherwise.
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That plus the Golden Rule. That Jesus fella was pretty big on reciprocity, wasn’t he?
Well, except when it came to being mean. He did say he didn’t like the “eye for an eye” bit, right?also has a bit of that metaphor.
Mathew 5:38-48
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you: Love your enemiesi and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Kind of hard to find many people who live up to that, Christian or otherwise.
Whatsoever you do... ~sigh~
I miss enjoying church. Growing up sucks. You find out almost everyone in charge is a hypocrite.
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Kind of hard to find many people who live up to that, Christian or otherwise.
It is a pretty tall order, isn’t it?
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I like the Golden Rule, and I find it utterly tragic that it has been perverted to the extent that it has. It says "Do unto others as you WOULD HAVE them do unto you," not "Do unto others as they ARE doing unto you." It is unfortunate that so may people in the modern world live by that second wording and not the first.
Jesus wasn't really all that down with reciprocity, unless you mean pre-emptive reciprocity. He was real big on doing what was right and compassionate regardless of the rewards or consequences, but people forget that he was also real big on making DAMN certain you knew what "right" was. the bit of the Lord's Prayer where he says to ask God to treat us as we treat others is, I believe, meant as a powerful reminder that no matter how much power you may have over others, there is always someone with that same level of power over you, and you should damn well treat them the way you would want to be treated. or it WILL come around to bite you on the ass. I think Jesus was quite sold on the whole karma thing, what you put out in the world does come back to roost in your barn. What was that verse again? Hosea 8:7 I think: "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind." You don't want whirlwind for supper, then don't put that shit out in the world to come back at you.
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It's also worth noting that it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and not just "Don't do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you". In other words, refraining from causing harm is the minimal standard for morality, but finding ways to help a brother out & improve the lives of the people around you is what really sets you above the rest.
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Couldn't have put it better myself, Mlle Ante. You get 3 Sandman Haggis Points.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB_SSxUaUIabJD-hdvBXeYK69uwbdsU1TFJKxPNp6GysWyuCwzgg)
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There I said it. This is a bit of a tangent off the Petty Prayers thread.
I like the Lord's prayer, not as a christian, because I am not a Christian, nor for any religious meaning. Nor do I have any illusions that it was first constructed by a person named Jesus. But for an examination of the words of the second part as it appears in Luke:
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation."
Give us just what we need for day.
Forgive us what we owe you and we forgive what we owe others.
I really rather like that it is something that I think is helpful and while self involved is also selfless.
There that's my dirty secret out.
Walk into a church and ask them to think along those lines. Those crackers will set you on fire and call you a heretical socialist.
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Daily bread? Obviously they're talking about government food handouts!
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Baba Yetu...nuff said
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That plus the Golden Rule. That Jesus fella was pretty big on reciprocity, wasn’t he?
Well, except when it came to being mean. He did say he didn’t like the “eye for an eye” bit, right?also has a bit of that metaphor.
Mathew 5:38-48
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you: Love your enemiesi and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Kind of hard to find many people who live up to that, Christian or otherwise.
Kind of hard to find many people who live up to that, Christian or otherwise.
It is a pretty tall order, isn’t it?
As a Christ-Follower, I try to do my best to follow the golden rule and live by the words written in red. Yes it is hard to live up to. I'm thinking it's supposed to be nigh on impossible. Pretty much to illustrate the fact that Jesus was the only one able to preach and practice all the above. With the rest of humanity, that old bugbear of human nature and selfishness tends to get in the way.
It doesn't mean we can't TRY to live by Christ's example. It means it's all we CAN do really. Try. TRY to treat others as you would want to be treated. TRY to love your enemies. Hard as hell the latter one can be, and taken for granted by others can the former one be.
We're all in this together, and nobody gets out of here alive, so let's TRY to make life for ourselves AND others as kind as we can.
At least, that's what I take from the quotes above.
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Baba Yetu...nuff said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A
This?
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I'm also fond of the Golden rule as stated in Matthew - as well as the rule as stated by Rabbi Hillel -"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn"
Whereas it is a hard ask I would like to think that more people tired to do it.
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I think more try than don't, whatever creed they follow. It's just the assholes are far more active and vocal about their assholeishness.
Part of what makes them assholes, I guess.