Author Topic: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)  (Read 3456 times)

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Offline Askold

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Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« on: January 19, 2016, 09:18:01 am »
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/gun-collector-faces-jail-over-illegal-arsenal/news-story/81c95b76e5590b533692efdac192a226

Australian is going to jail for possession of illegal weapons. The weapons in question are mainly airsoft guns... Though there were knuckle dusters and home made slingshot included as well.

Don't get me wrong, I understand tough gun laws but legally considering airsoft guns as firearms? Requiring license for them or even banning them totally? What in the name of L. Ron Hubbard were you smoking when you made those laws?

I could make jokes about how every living creature on your continent is trying to kill you constantly and you choose to be afraid of toy guns but honestly, you are putting people in jail for playing with toy guns and this is just sad rather than funny... (and really, there are so many jokes to make.)
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2016, 10:06:33 am »
Its like that "Zero Tolerance" bullshit in schools.  While airsoft guns are not harmless (you can hurt and/or injure people, if you aren't careful), they're still toys.  Your chance of being killed by one, while non-zero, is well below the threshold of significance.  But, they resemble real guns and are, therefore, frightening.  Probably because they view them as a "gateway weapon" to actual guns, something anyone with a brain can tell you is slippery slope bullshit.  This would be funny if it weren't so depressingly pathetic.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2016, 10:31:21 am »
Its like that "Zero Tolerance" bullshit in schools.  While airsoft guns are not harmless (you can hurt and/or injure people, if you aren't careful), they're still toys.  Your chance of being killed by one, while non-zero, is well below the threshold of significance.  But, they resemble real guns and are, therefore, frightening.  Probably because they view them as a "gateway weapon" to actual guns, something anyone with a brain can tell you is slippery slope bullshit.  This would be funny if it weren't so depressingly pathetic.

You know, just to chime in on this zero-tolerance thing, it really is a fault of the gun lobby. In response to just about every mass shooting, the gun lobby turns around and, ad hoc, says "look at these signs." Parents, angered at losing a kid, sue the school for then ignoring those signs, and it often settles for 6 or 7 figures.

So, now schools knowing that a shooting could open them to liability if any sign goes ignored, must now implement this level of zero-tolerance. For example, a few years ago, a kid bit his pizza to resemble a gun and "shot" a kid with it. Yes, in and of itself it is harmless. However, lets say that same kid brought a real gun to school the next day and shot people. Then, because the after the fact nature, that example with the pizza would be presented as evidence that the school knew of his dangerous proclivities and chose to ignore. The reason that zero tolerance exists is to minimize legal liability should a real school shooting actually happen, not to simply adopt an irrational position out of some hatred towards firearms.

And this speaks nothing to Australia. Though, ironically, I recall a few years ago during the infamous gun debates, that a few posters argued that slingshots and airsoft guns are just as lethal as real guns, which would easily justify this law. But, aside from that comical recollection, I have no opinion on Australia.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2016, 10:33:28 am »
I could see fining him painfully and confiscating the replicas for not having safety orange colored muzzle ends. Here, if a cop saw you with one of the guns pictured in your hands in a public space, you'd be ordered to drop the weapon, or just get hosed with a clip of real bullets, if you vaguely resemble Tamir Rice.

So, fine him because the realism of the untipped airsoft toys creates a public safety risk. Also, actual criminals have in fact successfully robbed businesses and pedestrians with replica guns like that in the past. Untipped replica guns could be defined as an offence similar to possessing a kit of burglary tools. That he is in jeopardy of facing jail time for this is pretty fucked up, though. I could only see that being reasonable if he has a criminal record for robbery, or is on a terrorist watch list, is known to be mentally unstable, or for deliberately running about frightening crowds of people in public, or threatening/terrorizing a neighbor, colleague, or ex with the replicas.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2016, 10:47:22 am »
Its like that "Zero Tolerance" bullshit in schools.  While airsoft guns are not harmless (you can hurt and/or injure people, if you aren't careful), they're still toys.  Your chance of being killed by one, while non-zero, is well below the threshold of significance.  But, they resemble real guns and are, therefore, frightening.  Probably because they view them as a "gateway weapon" to actual guns, something anyone with a brain can tell you is slippery slope bullshit.  This would be funny if it weren't so depressingly pathetic.

You know, just to chime in on this zero-tolerance thing, it really is a fault of the gun lobby. In response to just about every mass shooting, the gun lobby turns around and, ad hoc, says "look at these signs." Parents, angered at losing a kid, sue the school for then ignoring those signs, and it often settles for 6 or 7 figures.

So, now schools knowing that a shooting could open them to liability if any sign goes ignored, must now implement this level of zero-tolerance. For example, a few years ago, a kid bit his pizza to resemble a gun and "shot" a kid with it. Yes, in and of itself it is harmless. However, lets say that same kid brought a real gun to school the next day and shot people. Then, because the after the fact nature, that example with the pizza would be presented as evidence that the school knew of his dangerous proclivities and chose to ignore. The reason that zero tolerance exists is to minimize legal liability should a real school shooting actually happen, not to simply adopt an irrational position out of some hatred towards firearms.

And this speaks nothing to Australia. Though, ironically, I recall a few years ago during the infamous gun debates, that a few posters argued that slingshots and airsoft guns are just as lethal as real guns, which would easily justify this law. But, aside from that comical recollection, I have no opinion on Australia.

Aye, but its also a fault of the American love for litigation.  If you have any grievance, no matter how small-minded or petty, you can sue for it.  Break your arm whilst robbing someone's house?  Sue the homeowner!  Here in God's Own Eagle-Blessed Country, the default reaction to almost every problem one has with another person is to drag 'em into court.  Get rid of pea-brained, money-grubbing bullshit like that, and we could fix an awful lot of problems in this ass-backwards country.

I could see fining him painfully and confiscating the replicas for not having safety orange colored muzzle ends. Here, if a cop saw you with one of the guns pictured in your hands in a public space, you'd be ordered to drop the weapon, or just get hosed with a clip of real bullets, if you vaguely resemble Tamir Rice.

So, fine him because the realism of the untipped airsoft toys creates a public safety risk. Also, actual criminals have in fact successfully robbed businesses and pedestrians with replica guns like that in the past. Untipped replica guns could be defined as an offence similar to possessing a kit of burglary tools. That he is in jeopardy of facing jail time for this is pretty fucked up, though. I could only see that being reasonable if he has a criminal record for robbery, or is on a terrorist watch list, is known to be mentally unstable, or for deliberately running about frightening crowds of people in public, or threatening/terrorizing a neighbor, colleague, or ex with the replicas.

Yeaaaaaah, kinda agree with ya there, Mellen.  They should be obviously marked in some way as a fake, but jailing a motherfucker over it is a tad on the extreme side.  Then again, given how Australia treats refugees, I can't honestly say that I'm surprised.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 11:24:15 am »
Its like that "Zero Tolerance" bullshit in schools.  While airsoft guns are not harmless (you can hurt and/or injure people, if you aren't careful), they're still toys.  Your chance of being killed by one, while non-zero, is well below the threshold of significance.  But, they resemble real guns and are, therefore, frightening.  Probably because they view them as a "gateway weapon" to actual guns, something anyone with a brain can tell you is slippery slope bullshit.  This would be funny if it weren't so depressingly pathetic.

You know, just to chime in on this zero-tolerance thing, it really is a fault of the gun lobby. In response to just about every mass shooting, the gun lobby turns around and, ad hoc, says "look at these signs." Parents, angered at losing a kid, sue the school for then ignoring those signs, and it often settles for 6 or 7 figures.

So, now schools knowing that a shooting could open them to liability if any sign goes ignored, must now implement this level of zero-tolerance. For example, a few years ago, a kid bit his pizza to resemble a gun and "shot" a kid with it. Yes, in and of itself it is harmless. However, lets say that same kid brought a real gun to school the next day and shot people. Then, because the after the fact nature, that example with the pizza would be presented as evidence that the school knew of his dangerous proclivities and chose to ignore. The reason that zero tolerance exists is to minimize legal liability should a real school shooting actually happen, not to simply adopt an irrational position out of some hatred towards firearms.

And this speaks nothing to Australia. Though, ironically, I recall a few years ago during the infamous gun debates, that a few posters argued that slingshots and airsoft guns are just as lethal as real guns, which would easily justify this law. But, aside from that comical recollection, I have no opinion on Australia.

Aye, but its also a fault of the American love for litigation.  If you have any grievance, no matter how small-minded or petty, you can sue for it.  Break your arm whilst robbing someone's house?  Sue the homeowner!  Here in God's Own Eagle-Blessed Country, the default reaction to almost every problem one has with another person is to drag 'em into court.  Get rid of pea-brained, money-grubbing bullshit like that, and we could fix an awful lot of problems in this ass-backwards country.

Love for litigation is also a bit incorrect as it glosses over all the facts. First, the only entity that can really be sued anymore is the school, creating even more incentive for zero tolerance. You can't blame the lawyers as just about all lawyers in this area work on a contingent fee basis. So, if the plaintiff/client doesn't win, the lawyer gets no money, which does away with a great deal of suits lacking merit, as the lawyers have other cases that are more valuable than a frivolous suit. But, the lawyer/client cannot sue gun manufacturers or gun show* and the shooter's family is more than likely judgment proof.** The only entity left is the school, and parents have a valid case as their child just died, often times due to the school's omissions in handling the shooter before hand. So, in response, the other schools nip any mention or gun-related action, however stupid, in the bud well in advance so as not to open itself up to liability. While not the most prudent way to go about things, zero-tolerance is a result of plenty of different factors at work necessitating it. The best way to get rid of it would be for the gun lobby to just admit that guns do contribute to mass shootings, which evidence shows. This would allow schools to focus more on guns by would-be criminals, and less on jokes by 6-year olds with pizza. Removing gun show and gun manufacturer immunity would also be another good idea, as some of those suits would shift to other parties who are negligent. Finally, if the gun lobby would cease ad hoc pointing the finger everywhere else, then schools wouldn't have to worry as much about whether they should've known.

Now, I will disagree with your assertion that America is sue-happy, and a lot of it comes from distortions proposed by pro-tort reform groups (for example, the McDonald's hot coffee case in which McDonald's knew it's coffee was too hot, had 700 complaints of injury in the prior year alone, continued to make it too hot intentionally, and ultimately led to the old woman dying). From my experience working at a plaintiff's firm and for a federal court, those cases are by far the exception, and yet they are made the norm by a media and a lobby that wants to restrict how much you can win against Crest if their toothpaste makes your teeth fall out.

*Due to the federal immunity law for gun manufacturers and gun shows. In fact, there was a case from Ohio a few years ago. Kid stole two guns from a gun show and shot a couple of kids at his school. Parents sued both the gun show and the school district. Gun show was granted summary judgment under the federal immunity statute even though the individual dealer was clearly negligent and had a history of having his guns stolen and used in various crimes. Gun show was also awarded attorney fees since the suit was "frivolous" as the gun show had immunity from suit, in spite of its obviously reckless omissions.

** The median household wealth for a white family is about $200,000. However, under judgment creditor laws, which do vary state to state but have some basic commonalities, the house is usually excludable from a judgment creditor, as is furniture, one car up to $5000, a radio, a tv, jewelry, books, and clothing. So, at the end of the day, you'd be lucky to get $20,000 from suing the family.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 11:25:07 am »
Does Australia require coloured tips on airsoft guns? I know that Finland doesn't and I'm pretty sure neither does Japan but I'm not actually sure how many countries do require the tips... To google!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft

Huh. Lots of countries seem to consider some/all airsoft guns as firearms. Still, not many require orange tips even if they have restrictions on toys that look like real guns.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 11:30:33 am by Askold »
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Offline davedan

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 05:36:54 pm »
Few things:

1. He also had 2.4grams of Ice.

2.Certain BB guns are illegal in Australia too, as is I think having a sharpened (rather than merely decorative sword). I knew a guy who had a firearms record for having a potato gun. (Rather a sad story actually as the guy couldn't get a  taxi licence because of the record. He only had the record because he took the potato gun he built himself to the park to fire tennis balls.)

3.  The lack of a social safety net contributes to the litigious nature of the US as when bad things happen people often have no other recourse.

4. Queen you have no opinion on Australia? Bullshit. You can't get enough of us.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 05:38:55 pm by davedan »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 05:38:22 pm »
Considering they banned small breasts in porn, I'm not really surprised.

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 09:09:23 pm »
Does Australia require coloured tips on airsoft guns? I know that Finland doesn't and I'm pretty sure neither does Japan but I'm not actually sure how many countries do require the tips... To google!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft

Huh. Lots of countries seem to consider some/all airsoft guns as firearms. Still, not many require orange tips even if they have restrictions on toys that look like real guns.

Anecdotal, but every Aussie toy gun I've seen sold has an orange tip. That's in Victoria and NSW.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 09:10:21 pm »
Few things:

1. He also had 2.4grams of Ice.


Hahahaha, meth-head busted with a BB-gun.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 11:12:32 pm »
a) I didn't know that "Ice" is a drug.

b) I know that certain bb guns are illegal in Australia. In his region ALL airsoft guns are illegal so all of them were a violation of law. My point is that regardless of the other crimes he did which apparently include drugs and are more severe than I thought, treating toy guns like real firearms is silly and that is the bit that got my attention.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 11:14:06 pm »
Apart from the fact that if there is nothing to indicate that the guns are fake and they are hyperealistic they can still be used in Armed Robberies. Like in Snatch

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 11:17:36 pm »
a) I didn't know that "Ice" is a drug.

b) I know that certain bb guns are illegal in Australia. In his region ALL airsoft guns are illegal so all of them were a violation of law. My point is that regardless of the other crimes he did which apparently include drugs and are more severe than I thought, treating toy guns like real firearms is silly and that is the bit that got my attention.

This is nothing to me because BB guns in Australia are probably like fireworks in America: mostly against the law, but really not enforced, because who cares. So, he got busted for drugs and got probably the equivalent of a civil fine or an insignificant misdemeanor as a side ticket to rack up what the government could charge him with because of the meth.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Australia, explain this bullcrap (gun laws)
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 03:47:27 am »
a) I didn't know that "Ice" is a drug.

b) I know that certain bb guns are illegal in Australia. In his region ALL airsoft guns are illegal so all of them were a violation of law. My point is that regardless of the other crimes he did which apparently include drugs and are more severe than I thought, treating toy guns like real firearms is silly and that is the bit that got my attention.

This is nothing to me because BB guns in Australia are probably like fireworks in America: mostly against the law, but really not enforced, because who cares. So, he got busted for drugs and got probably the equivalent of a civil fine or an insignificant misdemeanor as a side ticket to rack up what the government could charge him with because of the meth.

If the laws are similar to the ones in Canada, replica and toy guns used in commission of a crime -- which simple possession could well be in Aus, IDK -- get treated as real guns so the penalties can seem disproportionately high. Without a crime as a precursor they are only toys (some of which we're not allowed) and treated as such.  i.e. as a minor legal transgression.