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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Distind on October 09, 2012, 01:46:45 pm

Title: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Distind on October 09, 2012, 01:46:45 pm
I figured I'd kick a land mine that's been annoying me for a while. I'm a fan of treating people more or less equally. The only real differences being in my opinion of them as a person, and rarely my interest in them on a deeper level.

What I've gathered from a few conversations around here it's assumed that there should be different treatment of people based on their 'gender' "When it matters". Which has left me at a bit of a loss, as  I have little idea of what these times would be. I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I honestly don't see it. But I did grow up around farm girls who could(and did on occasion) beat me into the dirt, so I may very well have simply missed something.
Title: Re: So when does sex matter?
Post by: SpaceProg on October 09, 2012, 02:08:38 pm
Sex matters not one iota to me in a romantic relationship.  Though I'm probably not like most.
Title: Re: So when does sex matter?
Post by: Dan on October 09, 2012, 03:51:08 pm
In most relationships it seems to matter most when you do it with someone else.
Title: Re: So when does sex matter?
Post by: Veras on October 09, 2012, 03:59:59 pm
Sex matters not one iota to me in a romantic relationship.  Though I'm probably not like most.

In most relationships it seems to matter most when you do it with someone else.

Maybe I misunderstood the question.  Wasn't the op asking why people should be treated differently based on whether they are male or female?
Title: Re: So when does sex matter?
Post by: Distind on October 09, 2012, 04:05:43 pm
Yeah, I'm altering the title of it now.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: rookie on October 09, 2012, 04:21:20 pm
I've always been of the opinion that gender doesn't matter much in most things that really matter. If a person is a good and quasi decent person, they are a good and quasi decent person. If they want to correct me on which third person pronoun to use, then fine. I'll refer to them as they wish.

The thing about gender stereotypes, any kind of stereotypes really, is they are so transparently stupid. Some chicks like sports, some guys like shopping, some black people don't like fried chicken, some Irish people don't drink, etc.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Veras on October 09, 2012, 05:00:58 pm
In the aggregate, there are real differences between men and women; and you can argue about how much it has to do with cultural expectations versus how much it has to do with biology (I don't really care).  But ultimately, people should be treated as individuals and not part of an aggregate.  Basically, gender doesn't matter to me so much as a person's expectation of how they should be treated.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Old Viking on October 09, 2012, 05:46:05 pm
Gender matters when you're choosing a restroom.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: SpaceProg on October 09, 2012, 06:16:57 pm
Whoops.  Sorry for my misunderstanding.  I was in a hurry. 
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Morgenleoht on October 09, 2012, 10:55:58 pm
Gender matters when you're choosing a restroom.

It also matters during that time of month.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Cataclysm on October 10, 2012, 12:53:21 am
Gender matters when you're choosing a restroom.

It shouldn't though.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Søren on October 10, 2012, 05:51:45 am
I'm quite weirded out by the whole restroom thing. Too confusing, but I cant really give a good opinion on it since I'm cis

But then, I've been told that if I was trans, I probably wouldnt give a shit because I am just that lazy
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Distind on October 10, 2012, 06:31:50 am
I'm quite weirded out by the whole restroom thing. Too confusing, but I cant really give a good opinion on it since I'm cis

But then, I've been told that if I was trans, I probably wouldnt give a shit because I am just that lazy
It's something that goes deeper than most people who say:
It shouldn't though.
Seem to think about it.

If anyone's been watching the discussions between smurfete and I the last few weeks you might have noticed the 'Women are supposed to be afriad and subservient to men' business. It's something that I can see the expectation of, but I'm not a fan of myself. Which comes into play in restroom choices. At least mutli-occupancy ones. Short of being asleep there are few times where you're more vunerable than in the restroom, tack on to that the the mindset above and you have a female population which typically isn't terribly comfortable sharing a bathroom with men. Beyond that little point it also explains why there's often so much resistance to transexuals using their prefered bathroom, occasionally from the person who wants to use them.

I'd love to start working on explaining how men aren't here to eat/rape women angle, but until that's dealt with sex segregated bathrooms probably aren't going anywhere. At least ones with more than one person in them.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Sylvana on October 10, 2012, 06:49:27 am
As a trans person and hence someone who has experienced both male and female toilets, I would like to say that I would never want the toilets to ever not be separated by gender. Women's toilets are just cleaner and nicer, I would hate for them to become even half the bio-hazard that men's toilets were like. (this is not to say that women's toilets are clean, its just they are not terrifyingly disgusting like the men's ones are.)

As for when gender or sex matters, I don't think there is a single good answer. A persons gender is based on their own sense of self, and how they express that gender is important to them, even when it is not important to others. A simplistic example can be seen as a woman who chooses only to wear dresses because to her expressing her femininity like that is important to her, even though now days women can and do wear anything.

Unfortunately when things like being trans is thrown into the mix things quickly become complicated. As stated before the personal expression of ones gender is important to the person. However, feminists tend to dislike trans-women because when trans-women express their gender the feminists feel they are re-enforcing gender stereotypes. The gender equality argument is all good and well, and it sounds good to say things like gender roles and stereotypes are meaningless and shouldn't matter, but reality is far more nuanced. There are people who want to do those gender stereotypical things, like how there are women who want to be stay at home housewives even now in the era of women's liberation. They are not brainwashed or being coerced, they are choosing to act like that because it is what they want and important to them.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Cataclysm on October 10, 2012, 10:12:13 am
I'm quite weirded out by the whole restroom thing. Too confusing, but I cant really give a good opinion on it since I'm cis

But then, I've been told that if I was trans, I probably wouldnt give a shit because I am just that lazy
It's something that goes deeper than most people who say:
It shouldn't though.
Seem to think about it.
I'd love to start working on explaining how men aren't here to eat/rape women angle, but until that's dealt with sex segregated bathrooms probably aren't going anywhere. At least ones with more than one person in them.

Join the MRM, they have "men aren't rapist" tourettes.

As a trans person and hence someone who has experienced both male and female toilets, I would like to say that I would never want the toilets to ever not be separated by gender. Women's toilets are just cleaner and nicer, I would hate for them to become even half the bio-hazard that men's toilets were like. (this is not to say that women's toilets are clean, its just they are not terrifyingly disgusting like the men's ones are.)


You're being facetious, right?

However, stupid feminists tend to dislike trans-women because when trans-women express their gender the feminists feel they are re-enforcing gender stereotypes. The gender equality argument is all good and well, and it sounds good to say things like gender roles and stereotypes are meaningless and shouldn't matter, but reality is far more nuanced.

Fix'd for you. Not all feminist are transphobic, and it isn't always due to their feminism. Those feminists probably have a problem with the SAHM and housewives. Don't generalize.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Distind on October 10, 2012, 10:58:52 am
Join the MRM, they have "men aren't rapist" tourettes.
There was a point in there that you removed for mining's sake.

Quote
However, stupid feminists tend to dislike trans-women because when trans-women express their gender the feminists feel they are re-enforcing gender stereotypes. The gender equality argument is all good and well, and it sounds good to say things like gender roles and stereotypes are meaningless and shouldn't matter, but reality is far more nuanced.

Fix'd for you. Not all feminist are transphobic, and it isn't always due to their feminism. Those feminists probably have a problem with the SAHM and housewives. Don't generalize.
Actually depending on exactly what they base their feminism on it could well be the feminism behind it. If you come from a background where men and women are defined in their places by birth circumstancecs, and women were rather regularly treated as inferiors or abused you may very well find feminism to be a refuge from men. As such it's very much based in biological generalities, and you could be very much disturbed when someone you see as quite clearly being a man starts invading your territory.

I mean hell, second wave feminism spawned isolated towns of nothing but women who simply wanted to escape men and society at large. If you don't think they're going to hold something against transexuals(of either typical type, though for slightly different reasons) over what is likely the core of their feminist beliefs then you've missed something.

More recent feminism it's far less likely. But it'll still be found in some of them, for some of the same reasons. As fluid as gender may or may not be, Sex isn't nearly as much so. If someone bases their feminism on their sex rather than any gender concerns they may well have issues with transpeople.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: m52nickerson on October 11, 2012, 11:49:28 pm
I figured I'd kick a land mine that's been annoying me for a while. I'm a fan of treating people more or less equally. The only real differences being in my opinion of them as a person, and rarely my interest in them on a deeper level.

What I've gathered from a few conversations around here it's assumed that there should be different treatment of people based on their 'gender' "When it matters". Which has left me at a bit of a loss, as  I have little idea of what these times would be. I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I honestly don't see it. But I did grow up around farm girls who could(and did on occasion) beat me into the dirt, so I may very well have simply missed something.

I think a person's gender matters as part of how you are going to deal with that person.  I deal with a lot of different people in my job.  Anywhere from city managers and elected officials to inmates running the prison's water plant.  You can't approach and talk to every person in the same ways and expect the same results.  That does not mean I treat all women different that man.  I don't, but a person's gender is part of equation. 
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Sour Grapes on October 12, 2012, 11:30:21 pm
There's a lot of societal expectations, especially in the Southern United States, about gender.  Men are supposed to like football, fishing, hunting, dogs, stock car racing, and four-wheeling; for example.  Women are supposed to like some of the same things, but be more genteel and demure about it.  Tradition, and all.  It can be annoying, and confining, but a lot of people, here, accept it.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: tygerarmy on October 13, 2012, 12:07:15 am
I was going to say how is really doesn't matter and all the reasons why and maybe come up with some exceptions.  But instead I'll go with the more extreme/nut point of view time when it matters.

When you're having heterosexual sex.
Because women can get pregnant.  And then men have no control over what happens if she gets pregnant, and they shouldn't.
But having a child changes the lives of both parties.  But in the theme of feminism, if it is a woman's body and a woman's choice, then it is the woman's baby.
Now all guys should raise and be a part of their offspring's life.  But we do not get a say in the final decision to have a child. 
Everyone should be pro a woman's right to choose.  Saying people who don't want children should abstain from sex is ridiculous, sex the love connection and emotions are basic human needs (One of the many reasons prostitution should be legal). There are preventive measures (I have sex with a me wearing a condom and the girl being on birth control) if all of those preventive measured failed, even though I really don't want kids, I wouldn't want the girl to have an abortion, but I'm stuck with her decision.  If the mother didn't want to see me, I'd have to fight for custody.  In the end men and women don't get a say over each other's bodies.  So when we mash them together it matters.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Old Viking on October 14, 2012, 06:30:02 pm
Some of humanity's greatest philosophical observations are to found on men's room walls.  Some clearly indicate the importance of parts.  One of my favorites -- from the 1950's -- said, "Piss fast, our crabs swim upstream."

Another male-oriented favorite from the same era said, "Please don't throw cigarette butts into the urinals -- do we piss in your ashtrays?"

To this day I don't know what's on the walls of women's rooms.

Have I  divulged too much about the types of places I hung out in as a young man?
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: rookie on October 14, 2012, 06:31:55 pm
Another male-oriented favorite from the same era said, "Please don't throw cigarette butts into the urinals -- do we piss in your ashtrays?"

I saw one that said "The people who have to your cigarette butts are the same ones who serve your food."
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Fpqxz on October 27, 2012, 03:53:26 am
Just piping in here to say that I think the whole gender divide in the hard sciences is more historical/cultural than biological in nature.

That is all.
Title: Re: So when does gender matter?
Post by: Material Defender on October 27, 2012, 10:57:54 am
I tend not to give law of averages much stock, because some data can be manipulated and there are people outside of the range.

Also, men like shopping (To be stereotypical). Just for things they enjoy. Clothes shopping is my bane because I have no idea what I'm doing, but food can be fun because I can balance stress relief against calorie intake. I'm pretty 100% sure that women enjoy shopping just for things they enjoy. Shopping for things you enjoy is the key factor, not being a dude or a lady. Even in stereotypica.

I believe though that the only meaningful biological difference is that women gain fat more readily (Boobs!) and men gain muscle more readily, and that women can get pregnant. Though the former two might be from hormones related to secondary sexual characteristics, I'd need some education on the details. I've never put much stock on the differences between genders. I'm not sure if it's because of Asberger's or Bisexuality. I usually just wind up in men heavy groups because I can either 'hide' in them if they talk about things I have no interest in, or they tend to line up interest wise... since my interests are more stereotypically male.

At least except when I was with one group. Arguing Jesus was a Socialist was fun. Winning the debate and making the Conservative Right/Christian Right agree with me is more amusing. Having them decide their faith is not as important to their voting as they originally decided was more discouraging because I wanted to win votes, not more theologically sound arguments.