FSTDT Forums

General Category => Suggestion Box => Topic started by: BobRumba on May 13, 2018, 02:22:41 pm

Title: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 13, 2018, 02:22:41 pm

After several weeks of the website being down and no explanation, a few of us thought it might be time to gather a few people together, those in the know, those with some history here, to see if we can figure out a way to get the board restarted, give it a new admin structure, etc. so that we don't find ourselves in this situation again, and we have backups.

I'm not sure the best way to go about this, and I'm only voicing this because no one else seems to have done so, I'm by no means a take-charge kind of person but maybe the first step is we can gather a few people here who have some kind of history with this place, know the ropes in terms of anything from the programming of it to the approval of comments.

I'm hopeful to see this turned into a topic and that people contribute to it, so that we can get the website back, as so many of us love it and would hate to lose it.  If there is a forum admin here, can you start a new topic under "general" on the main page and re-post this message there?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 13, 2018, 09:10:44 pm
If you want me to pin a thread, I will. I'd rather not start a new section, if that's what you're asking.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 13, 2018, 09:28:25 pm
If you want me to pin a thread, I will. I'd rather not start a new section, if that's what you're asking.

Whatever you can do to boost visibility, and hopefully get some action...I think it's important enough given the circumstances.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 14, 2018, 09:32:27 am
I understand the underlying technology well enough; barring the few points of styling info and assets (which could potentially be nicked from an archive.org snapshot), it wouldn't be that difficult to reimplement.  The only issue would be that none of the original content (quotes, comments, and accounts) would exist in the hypothetical new version.  That, and there's no guarantee that should the original come back, that any data between the two would be able to be reintegrated.  Of course, one could always make an API for that.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 14, 2018, 11:22:01 am
I understand the underlying technology well enough; barring the few points of styling info and assets (which could potentially be nicked from an archive.org snapshot), it wouldn't be that difficult to reimplement. 

That is encouraging, so rebuilding seems possible (even if you wouldn't necessarily want to run with the job on an ongoing basis, we could find someone else willing to do that).  An old archives is desirable but obviously we'll work with what we've got.  And shy could return at any time as well.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 14, 2018, 01:02:09 pm
Aye.  The biggest issue would be money.  I don't got enough to host a site like that, which was why Shy took over in the first place.  Without a financier, all I gots is ideas and some code lying about doing naught.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 14, 2018, 02:23:16 pm
The next question then becomes how much money's required to make something like this happen.  These are all questions that shy could probably answer in a heartbeat, so it's a shame we have to work around him, but the situation is what it is.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 14, 2018, 03:21:28 pm
It'd depends on the amount of traffic the site gets per month.  Google might be able to get us an estimate of visits from earlier in the year, which might help in figuring that out.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 15, 2018, 03:51:45 pm
Anyone else out there?  Anyone want to help?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: davedan on May 15, 2018, 06:23:07 pm
I would love to help but I have literally no useful skills or knowledge.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 15, 2018, 07:18:18 pm
You got money?  Halfway joking, but that's the biggest thing we'd need.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: davedan on May 15, 2018, 07:24:39 pm
How much do we need?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 15, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
I would love to help but I have literally no useful skills or knowledge.

At least you expressed interest, so thanks for that.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 15, 2018, 08:29:24 pm
I'm having a hard time finding traffic info; everything's just rankings, no hard numbers with historical data.  If I had to guess, from what little I got, the mainpage saw maybe 1,000 visitors daily.  If we assume that each visit consumes approx. 2MB bandwidth per session (an overestimation, most likely, as the data on each page is very small), then we'd need about 60GB/month of bandwidth.  Round that up to prolly 75-100GB to have wiggle room.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: davedan on May 15, 2018, 08:47:15 pm
what does that mean in currency?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 15, 2018, 08:49:25 pm
I wonder if there's a place that might be willing to host it (i.e. free), given that it's reasonably popular.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 15, 2018, 11:49:40 pm
Dunno if Krad would be willing to host it like he does the forum.  Dunno how to reliably get a hold of him, either.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Barbarella on May 16, 2018, 12:11:58 am
Well; We can crowd-fund to get the thing started up and then, once it's underway, perhaps have a fun FSTDTs gift shop on Patreon or some other store thingy.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 16, 2018, 08:55:52 am
That is an idea, aye.  Though, we'd probably need to trademark the name, lest we risk tonnes of imitators drawing away funding.  Another alternative might be Patreon, dunno if they do stuff like the mainpage, though.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 17, 2018, 04:21:46 pm
Reddit has a topic about fstdt and what happened to it. I directed their discussion here.  Nice to see people care about it.

Can new people still register for this forum?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 17, 2018, 04:58:46 pm
Reddit has a topic about fstdt and what happened to it. I directed their discussion here.  Nice to see people care about it.

Can new people still register for this forum?

Yes. Though sometimes there are issues with activation emails and new users need to be activated manually.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 17, 2018, 05:04:40 pm
Yes. Though sometimes there are issues with activation emails and new users need to be activated manually.
That must be what’s happening to me with my name change.  Can someone manually activate my new name Bob Rumba?  My activation email never showed up.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Sigmaleph on May 17, 2018, 08:53:16 pm
Yes. Though sometimes there are issues with activation emails and new users need to be activated manually.
That must be what’s happening to me with my name change.  Can someone manually activate my new name Bob Rumba?  My activation email never showed up.

I did that two days ago. If you try logging in to it, it should work.

For the record, you don't need a new account to change your name, it can be modified in your account settings.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 17, 2018, 09:01:29 pm
I did that two days ago. If you try logging in to it, it should work.

For the record, you don't need a new account to change your name, it can be modified in your account settings.

Oh - thanks.  I never thought to try it.
May not be necessary now, I might just modify my name instead.  I wasn't going to do that at first but now I think I probably willl.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 18, 2018, 10:17:33 pm
With shy dragging his heels about fixing the problem (assuming he has any intention of doing so at all) and also being entirely silent on the topic, this may be the best option. Personally, I'm conflicted. If this were the finale then surely there would have been some kind of announcement of it being shut down.

Or is this just a case of "make it look like an accident" so he'll bail, then wait for the hosting to expire. I really don't know.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 18, 2018, 10:26:52 pm
With shy dragging his heels about fixing the problem (assuming he has any intention of doing so at all) and also being entirely silent on the topic, this may be the best option. Personally, I'm conflicted. If this were the finale then surely there would have been some kind of announcement of it being shut down.

Or is this just a case of "make it look like an accident" so he'll bail, then wait for the hosting to expire. I really don't know.

He always ran it responsibly.  I did notice it was taking ages to get submissions approved in the weeks leading up to his disappearance.  My suspicion is something very heavy happened in his personal life.  But the length of time is now getting a little bit extensive and I'm surprised the other people high-up (those who approved submissions, etc.) haven't spoken up, pyro for instance.  He was here shortly before the board went down.  I'd have thought he'd have made his presence known.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 19, 2018, 12:27:49 am
With shy dragging his heels about fixing the problem (assuming he has any intention of doing so at all) and also being entirely silent on the topic, this may be the best option. Personally, I'm conflicted. If this were the finale then surely there would have been some kind of announcement of it being shut down.

Or is this just a case of "make it look like an accident" so he'll bail, then wait for the hosting to expire. I really don't know.

He always ran it responsibly.  I did notice it was taking ages to get submissions approved in the weeks leading up to his disappearance.  My suspicion is something very heavy happened in his personal life.  But the length of time is now getting a little bit extensive and I'm surprised the other people high-up (those who approved submissions, etc.) haven't spoken up, pyro for instance.  He was here shortly before the board went down.  I'd have thought he'd have made his presence known.
It could be that two very heavy and personal in nature, and also very complex and difficult as well which would explain the length of time. I could also hypothesise that shy told the other higher ups to stay shtum about it, not wanting his personal matters to be public knowledge. As others have said, it seems that the database has shat itself, but could also be proving a mf'er to fix.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 19, 2018, 09:59:45 am
If I had access to it, I could prolly fix it; as I've said earlier, it just looks like a connection string got fubar'd, somewheres.

As for a potential replacement, I'm doing a little work compling a list of things I, personally, would use to build such a thing:

1) DotVVM for the frontend.  There's a free version and it plugs straight into Visual Studio.  That way, I don't have to touch anything other than C#, CSS, and HTML.

2) Entity Framework for the data access layer.  Mostly so I don't have to touch SQL directly, because that is of the devil.  Also totally free and straight from Microsoft.

3) Standard C# for an API, both for general use and easier integration if/when Shy returns.

HOWEVER, there is an alternative if we can't get a Windows-based server, using Python:

1) Standard HTML/JS/CSS for the frontend.  Irritating, but I can do it.

2) Flask for the backend whatnot.

3) PostgreSQL for the database.

4) Flask-API for the API.

All are free and can be used in Python 3 easily enough.  Only downside is that I'm not quite as conversant in these technologies as I am their .Net counterparts.  However, I am aware that Linux-based servers tend to be cheaper and more prevalent, so it is an option.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 19, 2018, 10:00:25 am
Well, I don't want to seem stupid, but I'm not entirely sure why this site needs to be "coded" in the first place, can it not be updated to something a little easier?  There is probably more going on below the surface than I know about but isn't it really just a place where quotes are submitted and people discuss them?  Not much different than this forum as far as I can tell.  But again, I say this as a casual observer.  If there's a good reason for it (and I'm sure there is) I ask out of ignorance, I'm not getting in anyone's face about it.

I really just would like to see the place up and running again.  It has a good reputation (and also a bad one among conservatives, I've discovered...some people think we are all a bunch of God-hating SJWs.)
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 19, 2018, 10:09:52 am
It does indeed need to be coded, and its broken down into 3 main categories:

1) Frontend (what the user sees).
2) Backend
3) Data Access Layer (DAL)

The first is obvious, there's parts (like breaking quotes into pages, dynamically loading quotes, etc) that can't be done in pure HTML+CSS.  That necessitates either DotVVM or JavaScript.

The second, the backend, sits between the frontend and the DAL.  It makes the data the DAL pulls useful, acting on it as we need, doing things like (potentially) parsing BBCode into HTML, making sure the data is valid, and preventing things like SQL injection attacks by sanitizing input into the system.

The third part consists partly of regular code and partly of SQL, especially in the case of PostgreSQL + Python.  The former to pull data from the database (quotes, commets, etc) and the latter providing not only the structure of the database itself, but any stored procedures that sit right on top of the database, facilitating speedier access to certain queries that would otherwise be slower in code.  Long story short, the DAL polls the database and turns what it gets into objects that are then passed to the backend, or takes data that's given by the backend and pushing it to the database.

[ETA]

The TL;DR is this: one could do it with straight HTML+CSS.  The problem is that every quote approval would require a site edit/update before it'd take effect.  That'd also mean that we'd likely have to break up the pages by day to keep them at a manageable size.  Otherwise, the pages would be hatefully enormous and take forever to load.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 19, 2018, 10:21:51 am
It does indeed need to be coded

OK, thanks for explaining.  I always wondered that.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 19, 2018, 10:35:50 am
Any time!  Honestly, it isn't a tonne of work; the mainpage really didn't have very much on it.  But, there's always more than meets the eye, lol.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 19, 2018, 10:44:16 am
Any time!  Honestly, it isn't a tonne of work; the mainpage really didn't have very much on it.  But, there's always more than meets the eye, lol.

And to get people to help you with the job, would you need people who knew the coding, or are there "menial tasks" that could be assisted with by non-coder type people?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 19, 2018, 01:29:13 pm
Short-term, probably.  I'll admit, my strengths are...not in making pretty sites.  I could make it clean and functional, but making it pretty is better suited to someone whose strengths are in HTML and CSS.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 19, 2018, 01:51:08 pm
Short-term, probably.  I'll admit, my strengths are...not in making pretty sites.  I could make it clean and functional, but making it pretty is better suited to someone whose strengths are in HTML and CSS.

Well, we have no choice but to work one step at a time.  Maybe someone can step forward at that point.  Or shy may return.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 20, 2018, 08:46:42 pm
I put up a message on the subreddit regarding this topic; I felt people there (assuming they're not 100% represented here) have a right to know what's been going down the past little bit.

ON THAT NOTE.  I have two options on the technical side of things, depending on what servers we can find and/or how much they cost:

Windows Server

If a Windows-based server could be found that doesn't cost an arm and a leg a month to meet our needs, we'd have access to all the tech in the .Net family, as well as all the neat little extensions that have come across for it.  We'd also have Microsoft support in case shit hits the fan and it'd be an environment with which I am very familiar, as well as tech with which I am intimately familiar, excepting DotVVM.  The only real downside is that Windows servers tend to be more expensive than the alternatives, so monetary support would be more paramount.

Linux Server

Some flavour of Linux (maybe Ubuntu or Debian or somesuch) would be far cheaper than the Windows counterparts.  Unfortunately, this would likely preclude me from using a lot of the cool shit I know how to do in .Net, because I'd have to be relegated to Mono.  While Mono is mostly feature-complete when compared to current .Net versions, I'm unsure as to whether or not certain bits of tech (like DotVVM) would be compatible with Mono, as I've yet to evaluate that aspect of things.

However, there are Python-based solutions that could work fairly well.  I know some of the tech (Flask, Psycopg2) relatively well and Python is easy enough to work with.  The upside is that everything I'd use would be both free and open-source, so nobody would be likely to come breathing down my neck for whatever we'd be having in terms of monetary support.  I'm not as familiar with the frontend tech (Flask-Bootstrap), as I'm not really much of a frontend guy to begin with, but it seems simple enough to get the basics down and I'm sure there's a community out there, somewhere, where I could pose questions when they arise.

---

On the financial front, I think something like Patreon would probably be best.  Merch has a lot of added fees and crap tacked on that could screw us out of a lot of potential server keeping money and we'd have to worry about copycats popping up and trying to undercut us.  Something with both one-time and recurring donations would be simplest, and people could choose to contribute whatever they like.  Any and all funds would, of course, be put towards the site and nothing else.

I basically owe FSTDT for finding my fiancee; without it, we never would've met.  I will be fucking damned if I see it die an inglorious death to a combination of personal problems and a fucking bug.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: davedan on May 20, 2018, 08:50:54 pm
What does that mean in actual pesos required per month?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 20, 2018, 09:09:13 pm
A very, VERY rough estimate using Amazon would be ~$125 USD a month.  I'd need to know more about hosting options; Google Cloud is another, but I dunno if I can get a custom domain name with that or not.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 20, 2018, 09:28:18 pm
I basically owe FSTDT for finding my fiancee; without it, we never would've met.  I will be fucking damned if I see it die an inglorious death to a combination of personal problems and a fucking bug.

That’s the first real positive thing I’ve read here it a while and it felt good to read it, thanks. 

What on earth is up with shy though, my God.  He could be dead or anything, and the not knowing is brutal.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 20, 2018, 10:07:45 pm
I know!  Its startin to bug me.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 21, 2018, 05:20:26 pm
Short-term, probably.  I'll admit, my strengths are...not in making pretty sites.  I could make it clean and functional, but making it pretty is better suited to someone whose strengths are in HTML and CSS.

Well, we have no choice but to work one step at a time.  Maybe someone can step forward at that point.  Or shy may return.
which returns first, Shy or Jesus. Taking bets. Also, if FSTDT does die due to a constipated database and personal issues then WinAce will roll in his grave
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 21, 2018, 07:30:11 pm
That's why we're here, bruh.  The original data, for the time being, may be gone, but the spirit will remain.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 21, 2018, 09:38:54 pm
That's why we're here, bruh.  The original data, for the time being, may be gone, but the spirit will remain.
The old site layout was dated as hell anyway, not really bad just old. When do you think the hosting will expire, it's been a month with no word, my conclusion is that shy pulled a "make it look like an accident" then bailed.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Cloud3514 on May 22, 2018, 12:47:01 am
I basically owe FSTDT for finding my fiancee; without it, we never would've met.  I will be fucking damned if I see it die an inglorious death to a combination of personal problems and a fucking bug.

I can't say that I have this level of connection to the site, but I've been a part of this community for over 10 years. If we're going down, we're going down kicking and screaming and that's how it should be.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 22, 2018, 11:08:12 am
What I'd really like to see would be a mainpage with more distributed leadership, as it were.  Ideally, we'd have a public-facing admin that can handle troll reports and whatnot and an engineering admin that handles code, data, and whatnot, with a backup person for each.  That way, one end can work on keeping the site in fighting form while not having to worry so much about approving quotes and booting trolls while the other doesn't have to worry about the database shitting itself when they're trying to deal with a new Dave Mabus or something.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 22, 2018, 11:32:13 am
I was an approver of submissions back in Distind's day.  I would do that again.

I never saw how bad the troll problem got, I wasn't really privy to that.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 22, 2018, 12:27:21 pm
I've got tons of free time, and i've admin'd on imageboards and game servers. if you want a public facing admin to deal with troll enforcement and submissions, i'm your man.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on May 22, 2018, 12:29:26 pm
I've got tons of free time, and i've admin'd on imageboards and game servers. if you want a public facing admin to deal with troll enforcement and submissions, i'm your man.

Troll enforcement, yeah.  Public humiliation actively encouraged.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Tricky Fox on May 22, 2018, 12:35:31 pm
I've got tons of free time, and i've admin'd on imageboards and game servers. if you want a public facing admin to deal with troll enforcement and submissions, i'm your man.

Troll enforcement, yeah.  Public humiliation actively encouraged.
my method was always the give warning to pack it in, if they continue then bring down the hammer. What exactly do you mean by public humiliation?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 30, 2018, 04:53:38 pm
Currently working on a database setup script for the Rebirth.  Using PostgreSQL because its something with which I'm familiar, its free, and I'm a cheap bastard.  Also, methinks I've decided on using the Python approach, since anything I need there is likely available free-of-charge and, again, see cheap bastard.  Doesn't hurt that Python can run on anything that's got it installed regardless of OS.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 02, 2018, 06:40:50 pm
Wooh!  Not even two weeks after I said work was being done to bring back the mainpage, and I've already received one indirect death threat!  Oh, this is gonna be fun.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 02, 2018, 10:24:52 pm
Sorry about that. I get a bit testy when I can't find any good horse porn.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on June 02, 2018, 11:18:52 pm
Currently working on a database setup script for the Rebirth.  Using PostgreSQL because its something with which I'm familiar, its free, and I'm a cheap bastard.  Also, methinks I've decided on using the Python approach, since anything I need there is likely available free-of-charge and, again, see cheap bastard.  Doesn't hurt that Python can run on anything that's got it installed regardless of OS.

This is quite exciting.  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on June 03, 2018, 10:55:19 pm
I wonder if you can put up a new page which says "returning soon" or something, so the faithful can know there's still life in the old thing yet?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 04, 2018, 02:18:22 pm
I don't have any control over or access to the FSTDT domain, so I can't do anything with it, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: BobRumba on June 05, 2018, 12:06:16 pm
I don't have any control over or access to the FSTDT domain, so I can't do anything with it, unfortunately.

Oh, I wondered about that.  Is that one of those things where only shy has the key?
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 05, 2018, 10:46:06 pm
As far as I'm aware, aye.  If I had they keys, I wouldn't bother remaking shit, I'd just fix what was broken and be on my merry way.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 06, 2018, 09:08:09 am
[Double Post, wtfever]

Oh man, death-threat guy on the FSTDT subreddit seems to be getting a little testy.  Prolly because I keep mocking him, but its just so hard to resist the urge!  I can't help it, I swear.
Title: Re: Rebuilding FSTDT
Post by: SomeApe on June 12, 2018, 04:38:45 pm
There is an FSTDT subreddit?! Cool!