Author Topic: Faith vs. Religion  (Read 12480 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cerim Treascair

  • My Love Is Lunar
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3092
  • Gender: Male
  • Get me my arbalest... explosive bolts, please.
Faith vs. Religion
« on: January 20, 2013, 01:07:46 am »
This... is a hard topic for me to write about.  Thanks to a friend of mine, however, I think... I'm starting to regain the faith that religion and hard things in my life stole from me.

This is in part directed at him, who I'm still trying to get onto this forum, and in part to explain what's been swirling in my head for a month or two now.

Start from the beginning... I've mentioned to some of you that I've had a rough go of it.  Some of you know the details.  Many don't.  I'll lay my cards on the table, even if all I have are aces and eights.

I'm 29 years old.  When I was three, I was pretty... precocious.  Getting my hands on books to read on my own, things like that.  I was put in pre-pre-school.  Yes, there is such a thing.  So, time passes, and I come home one day to tell my parents that the teacher was 'sticking hot dogs up my butt'.  They thought I was just telling stories.  Dad, however, had a feeling, and got me taken out.  Six months later? News story about the teacher and his wife were arrested on 26 counts of child molestation.

No, I never got therapy.

Fast forward to when I was seven.  I was already getting 'favorite' relatives.  Dad was, and still is, my fucking hero to this day.  My uncle Robert was one such favorite relative, and he didn't sugarcoat things.  Very blunt, very "this is how the world works" kinda guy.  He had a habit every Friday, of hitting the local bar after his work shift was over at the mill, having two beers, heading home.  Like clockwork.  One week, he said hello to a girl who was sitting next to him, and they got to chatting while he drank.  He polished them off, said good night to the regulars, and went home.  Unfortunately, the girl he was talking to had a jealous boyfriend who was convinced that she was cheating on him... so when he saw her talking to my uncle...

... he followed my uncle home, broke into the garage, and took a 2x4 from there, and found the bedroom in the house... and raised the 2x4.  He dragged my uncle's body out of the house, and dumped him in a ditch outside of town.  We didn't find him for three days, which is when we got the call from my aunt about his murder.  They caught the guy... and gave him 16 years for pre-meditated murder.

No, I didn't get therapy.

So, what's this got to do with Faith vis a vis religion... I asked god, after my uncle's murder, 'why'... I never got an answer.  I grew up surrounded by folks that didn't practice what they preached, to say the least.  I turned my back on faith for good when I was 13.  After all, it'd brought me nothing but pain and misery and hadn't helped me with any answers in life.  Or so I thought.


I met a guy through a fanfic website.  Yes, it's for pony.  No, this isn't going to turn into a pony thread, and if anybody gets any bright ideas, I'm going to get your posts nuked.  Clear?

So, this guy... conservative Christian guy.  Nearly my diametric opposite.  Yet, somehow, some way, we hit it off.  I proudly, happily call this guy my friend.  Someday, if we get close enough, I may even be fortunate enough to call him my brother, something I'd like dearly.  He and I went back and forth on so many things, and still do.  Predestination.  Free will vs. omnipotence.  Creationism.  And I realized something.  In him, through him, my faith is being re-ignited and burning brightly once more.  I never thought I'd feel this way again.  Do we disagree? vehemently, on some things.  However, it's through those disagreements that I find I understand the bible better.  I'm not getting badgered into "believe this or burn in hell" bullshit.  I'm not getting told "you don't believe in what I do, you're an evil person" stuff either.  And I could honestly talk to him for years about this sort of thing.  We've even gotten into studying bible verses together, and he has historical context and references to back him up.  It's wonderful.

So, to Fyrenn, if he reads this... thanks, my friend.  You may well have saved my life.

To the rest of you... have you encountered anything similar? where faith is proving to be the better foundation than the religion you were raised in?
There is light and darkness in the world, to be sure.  However, there's no harm to be had in walking in the shade or shadows.

Formerly Priestling

"I don't give a fuck about race...I'm white, I'm American, but that shit don't matter.  I'm human."

Offline Old Viking

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1454
  • Gender: Male
  • Occasionally peevish
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 06:03:31 pm »
Faith is belief without evidence.  Religion is organized faith.
I am an old man, and I've seen many problems, most of which never happened.

Offline Witchyjoshy

  • SHITLORD THUNDERBASTARD!!
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 9044
  • Gender: Male
  • Thinks he's a bard
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 05:09:19 pm »
Faith is belief without evidence.  Religion is organized faith.

-_-

@Priestling

I'm glad to hear you're getting your faith back again.

I'm still kinda lost myself.  Been raised in an organized religion, loved it with all of my heart, but got stabbed in the back multiple times before I finally left it.

I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/
Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

Even the worst union is better than the best Walmart.

Caladur's Active Character Sheet

Offline Osama bin Bambi

  • The Black Witch
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10167
  • Gender: Female
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 05:15:24 pm »
Personally, I used to be a lot more hostile to the idea of religion than I am now. The thing that was always a major hangup for me being involved in any religion was that, simply put, I could not believe it without evidence. As I got older, I recognized that if I were to become involved in a religion, then I would definitely have some sort of faith, but I would always differentiate myself from people who truly "believed" because I would admit, right off the bat, that there was no proof of what I was saying or doing, and that by all logical standards I should not have faith in it. (I think Kirkegaard, a Christian existentialist, said it best when he said, "Faith is absurd.") I would become religious because of the psychological or symbolic benefit for myself, not because I had any hopes of getting into heaven or impressing others with my piety.
Formerly known as Eva-Beatrice and Wykked Wytch.

Quote from: sandman
There are very few problems that cannot be solved with a good taint punching.

Offline Sleepy

  • Fuck Yes Sunshine In a Bag
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • Gender: Female
  • Danger zone
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 10:56:03 pm »
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/

Why does it make you feel empty?
Guys, this is getting creepy. Can we talk about cannibalism instead?

If a clown eats salmon on Tuesday, how much does a triangle weigh on Jupiter? Ask Mr. Wiggins for 10% off of your next dry cleaning bill. -Hades

Offline Witchyjoshy

  • SHITLORD THUNDERBASTARD!!
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 9044
  • Gender: Male
  • Thinks he's a bard
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 08:06:56 am »
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/

Why does it make you feel empty?

I don't understand it myself, and thus can't explain it.
Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

Even the worst union is better than the best Walmart.

Caladur's Active Character Sheet

Offline Cerim Treascair

  • My Love Is Lunar
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3092
  • Gender: Male
  • Get me my arbalest... explosive bolts, please.
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 05:22:57 pm »
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/

Why does it make you feel empty?

I don't understand it myself, and thus can't explain it.

I'm a-thinkin' that I need to get you and Fyrenn together.  He did wonders for my peace of mind (and damn, is the boy patient with my ass...), I think he could help you, too.
There is light and darkness in the world, to be sure.  However, there's no harm to be had in walking in the shade or shadows.

Formerly Priestling

"I don't give a fuck about race...I'm white, I'm American, but that shit don't matter.  I'm human."

Offline R. U. Sirius

  • He Who Must Be Smooched By Cute FSTDT Forumgirls
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2896
  • Gender: Male
  • Just look at me. Who could distrust this face?
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 10:28:06 am »
If he's as conservative as you say, shouldn't he want nothing to do with your ass?
http://www.gofundme.com/kw5o78
My GoFundMe campaign. Donations are greatly appreciated.

http://imgur.com/user/RUSirius1/submitted
My Imgur account. Upvotes always appreciated

If you look at it logically, cannibalism has great potential to simultaneously solve our overpopulation and food shortage problems.

Offline Cerim Treascair

  • My Love Is Lunar
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3092
  • Gender: Male
  • Get me my arbalest... explosive bolts, please.
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 07:28:36 pm »
If he's as conservative as you say, shouldn't he want nothing to do with your ass?

I'll admit, that made me laugh :3 well played!
There is light and darkness in the world, to be sure.  However, there's no harm to be had in walking in the shade or shadows.

Formerly Priestling

"I don't give a fuck about race...I'm white, I'm American, but that shit don't matter.  I'm human."

Offline Fpqxz

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 903
  • Gender: Male
  • Generic forum poster #666
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 02:28:03 pm »
Personally, I used to be a lot more hostile to the idea of religion than I am now. The thing that was always a major hangup for me being involved in any religion was that, simply put, I could not believe it without evidence. As I got older, I recognized that if I were to become involved in a religion, then I would definitely have some sort of faith, but I would always differentiate myself from people who truly "believed" because I would admit, right off the bat, that there was no proof of what I was saying or doing, and that by all logical standards I should not have faith in it. (I think Kirkegaard, a Christian existentialist, said it best when he said, "Faith is absurd.") I would become religious because of the psychological or symbolic benefit for myself, not because I had any hopes of getting into heaven or impressing others with my piety.

I actually agree with your post, but I would add that religion performs a useful sociocultural function that non-religious groups do not fully replicate.  So I am willing to concede that religion has a degree of social utility which somewhat balances out its negative aspects.

Likewise, with respect to Priestling's OP, religion also provides a degree of emotional support that secular/non-religious groups cannot provide.  It is your choice alone whether or not you wish to avail yourself of that.

Also, sorry to hear about the negative things to happen in your past...I hope you find the happiness you seek.
Read some real news:  Allgov.com, JURIST

Quote
Step down Mr. and Mrs. Politically Correct.
It's so easy to be "punk" and "aware" living at home.
You can't change shit, you're too self-righteous;
you're the bigots you flaunt to loathe.
--Thought Industry, Boil

Offline chitoryu12

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4009
  • Gender: Male
  • Tax-Payer Rhino
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 09:10:52 pm »
Faith and religion provide a lot of good for people. And they can both provide a lot of bad. People have been saved by faith, and people have been killed by it. Religious organizations have cared for others and killed others.

Blanket statements like "Religion is a cancer" or "Faith is stupidity" is a pointless black and white view of the world; you're either good or evil, smart or dumb. What's important is what YOU make of it, and what morals YOU have. Those who commit crimes in the name of religion probably would have done evil without religion. It just provides a convenient excuse for their lack of morals.
Still can't think of a signature a year later.

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 03:26:35 am »
I'm curious as to whether or not there's any non-anecdotal evidence that supports the assertion that religious groups can provide more/better support to their members than secular groups.  I'd also like to know what sociocultural functions religion serves that can't be replicated via secular means, and aren't complete fabrications.

Seriously...what role does religion play that can't be replicated by secularism?  From what I've seen, for every role religion plays, secularism can replicate it.  Support?  Family and friends.  Just because you don't worship a god doesn't mean you don't have family and friends who love you and are willing to support you in a time of need, to the best of their abilities.  Charity?  Sorry, we do that, too, religion isn't special in that regard, either.  Education?  Secularism not only replicates this, but does it better than religion ever has; children are more likely to listen and hold on to facts than fables.

Religion is just a way to explain the parts of life that are (currently) unknown and/or frightening to its adherents, along with providing some (many times, loose) moral codes.  Death is frightening, and some turn to religion to make it less so, some simply accept it as a fact of the way in which we're built and how the laws of nature act upon us.  Lightning was (and is still, to some) frightening, but it is not mysterious, it is not magic, it is not the work of Zeus or Thor, but of simple laws of nature acting upon one another and the environment.  Religion explains away the unknowns of life with mysticism; secularism just says that it doesn't currently know.  People use whatever is best for them and, so long as they don't use it to harm others or infringe upon their rights, that's not a bad thing.  You adhere to faith, doctrine, and mysticism, and I do not.  Religion doesn't make you special, it doesn't make you somehow more capable of empathy toward your fellow man or make you more charitable, unless you let it.  Even then, it is not the religion that changed how you behaved, it was your decision, your action, that changed you.

It boils down to this: religion does not make a person good, it does not make a person charitable, kind, or loving.  That is because of the person's actions.  This much, has always been true.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:28:58 am by RavynousHunter »
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline Sleepy

  • Fuck Yes Sunshine In a Bag
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • Gender: Female
  • Danger zone
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 11:03:53 am »
^^ This, so hard. And really, saying that religion provides a type of support that secular groups cannot replicate... that depends on if you're religious or not. Religion can provide emotional support if you believe in a loving deity who will grant you with paradise for being a genuinely good person, but as an atheist, I really wouldn't count that as emotional support for myself. I'd view it as more of a way to further ignore my problems, if anything. I dunno, it's hard to find the words to explain my point.
Guys, this is getting creepy. Can we talk about cannibalism instead?

If a clown eats salmon on Tuesday, how much does a triangle weigh on Jupiter? Ask Mr. Wiggins for 10% off of your next dry cleaning bill. -Hades

Offline rookie

  • Miscreant, petty criminal, and all around nice guy
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Gender: Male
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 11:10:54 am »
I've recently started equating religion as some sort of, I don't want to say character flaw, but sort of a nobody's perfect aspect. For example, John gets himself half drunk every night. My feeling is as long as he's doing this at home, and he gets up and goes to work every day, as long as it's not effecting his life too bad, then it's fine. Or like Mary smokes. She never smokes in the house or in the car with people. Sure, if they're driving any distance she'll make more stops than necessary, but she'll keep it out of the car. So she's taking steps to keep it from effecting others, Cool.  Religion is the same for me. As long as you're keeping it under control, fine.

The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

  • The Black Witch
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10167
  • Gender: Female
Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 02:43:52 pm »
I've recently started equating religion as some sort of, I don't want to say character flaw, but sort of a nobody's perfect aspect. For example, John gets himself half drunk every night. My feeling is as long as he's doing this at home, and he gets up and goes to work every day, as long as it's not effecting his life too bad, then it's fine. Or like Mary smokes. She never smokes in the house or in the car with people. Sure, if they're driving any distance she'll make more stops than necessary, but she'll keep it out of the car. So she's taking steps to keep it from effecting others, Cool.  Religion is the same for me. As long as you're keeping it under control, fine.



>implying that being religious is as inherently bad or destructive for your body as drinking or smoking
Formerly known as Eva-Beatrice and Wykked Wytch.

Quote from: sandman
There are very few problems that cannot be solved with a good taint punching.