Author Topic: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group  (Read 28418 times)

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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2012, 05:07:13 pm »
Personally, even if the First Amendment were violated to shut them up, I would not care.

I am not a purist of the First Amendment.

It is my personal belief, formed through experience and my personal life, that excessive freedom breeds license. License to act as you wish without consequence is dangerous and that fosters nothing but maggots drawling about who slowly drain a society to death, and Europe...Europe sees this, hence why in certain countries, you could be arrested for saying things like what Westboro says.
Unless there is a tangible harm to the lives of others (e.g. incitement to violence) then I see no reason to limit the First Amendment. There is no right to not be offended enshrined in our Constitution.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2012, 05:33:55 pm »
It is my belief that those who are related to soldiers, men and women who gave their lives amidst their ultimate act of willpower, deserve their quiet, their rest, and the ability to see to it that their relatives are respected. Their loved ones gave their lives so that they might live peacefully, and for a cause they believed in, ultimately.

This true sacrifice should bring their loved ones this peace. Not the grief of dealing with Westboro.

While there is no tangible physical harm, Westboro harms the minds of the individuals mourning their dead, and harms the memories of the departed, an ultimate transgression deserving naught but a response of power or force against them.
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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2012, 05:52:36 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
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Offline SimSim

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2012, 06:46:24 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 07:30:38 pm »
It is my belief that those who are related to soldiers, men and women who gave their lives amidst their ultimate act of willpower, deserve their quiet, their rest, and the ability to see to it that their relatives are respected. Their loved ones gave their lives so that they might live peacefully, and for a cause they believed in, ultimately.
They also gave their lives to protect our Constitution, including our First Amendment. As someone whose immediate family members are in the military, I would be crushed if the Westboro Baptist Church protested near the funeral of my loved ones. This, however, does not mean they should be barred from expressing their repugnant views.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 07:52:43 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.

I disagree. It's just not the freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please without consequences.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 08:04:31 pm »
The constitution is an ever changing document, holding to the purity of one phrase or ideal within it against the logic of the times is not just impractical, but also possibly harmful.

Because your loved ones made the ultimate sacrifice, I would contest the right of Westboro to do as they please.

While this is my opinion, we shall see which of our opinions holds the most validity, via the will of the people. It is obvious that this issue is catching on in the public sphere. Soon, we will see what view point is ultimately representative of the will of the people.
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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 09:01:44 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.

I disagree. It's just not the freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please without consequences.

I guess that's what I meant.
I think there is a difference between saying something and speech though. Westboro isn't trying to spread information, they're just trying to shock and hurt, and words happen to be their weapon. That should be considered.
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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 09:03:50 pm »
As I like to say...

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of speech.
Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 09:09:52 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

I wasn't arguing with anyone.
There is a difference between a KKK parade and WBC. WBC pickets the mourning at the worst time possible, whereas the KKK aren't parading around civil right's memorials, or black people's and funerals. Also, the KKK is more widespread than WBC. Members of the KKK often don't let anyone know, whereas WBC members are usually forced into living 100% "christian" lives.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 09:54:25 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

I wasn't arguing with anyone.
There is a difference between a KKK parade and WBC. WBC pickets the mourning at the worst time possible, whereas the KKK aren't parading around civil right's memorials, or black people's and funerals. Also, the KKK is more widespread than WBC. Members of the KKK often don't let anyone know, whereas WBC members are usually forced into living 100% "christian" lives.
No but white supremacists (specifically the American Nazi Party) sued to march through Skokie, Illinois which had a large population of Holocaust survivors. Should that be banned as well?

Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 09:58:12 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

I wasn't arguing with anyone.
There is a difference between a KKK parade and WBC. WBC pickets the mourning at the worst time possible, whereas the KKK aren't parading around civil right's memorials, or black people's and funerals. Also, the KKK is more widespread than WBC. Members of the KKK often don't let anyone know, whereas WBC members are usually forced into living 100% "christian" lives.
No but white supremacists (specifically the American Nazi Party) sued to march through Skokie, Illinois which had a large population of Holocaust survivors. Should that be banned as well?

If there was an important ceremony about the Holocaust, and many victims participated, and the KKK came in and said horrid things about them, then yes. The only reason they're there is to bully, not enlighten.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 10:25:26 pm »
There are good reasons to ban certain speech. If people will give you money in exchange for your "cure for cancer" that is actually just tap water, for example. If you're condemning someone to prison. If you will cause unwarranted massive panic.

"That's offensive!" should not be on that list. Because, y'know, at that point you're playing the "how offensive is too offensive" game, and that's the game were you win by being as overly sensitive as possible.

I'm not saying that the families of the people whose funerals the WBC pickets are being overly sensitive, of course. They are completely right to find it disgusting and appalling that someone would do that. But if the WBC is banned for being too offensive, that's the very point were "offensive" becomes a valid reason to ban speech. And from there, it seems just too bloody likely that the next thing that is too offensive will be a book, or a religious view, or a political position. Hell, I'm willing to bet that every single person posting in this thread has an opinion that someone, somewhere, finds just as offensive as picketing a funeral. I know I do.


Of course, as far as I can tell, that's not what this petition would accomplish. It doesn't seem like it would actually accomplish anything at all, "legally recognised hate group" doesn't seem to be a real thing. But still, the arguments in this thread keep popping up every now and then and they piss me off every time.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 10:28:28 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

I wasn't arguing with anyone.
There is a difference between a KKK parade and WBC. WBC pickets the mourning at the worst time possible, whereas the KKK aren't parading around civil right's memorials, or black people's and funerals. Also, the KKK is more widespread than WBC. Members of the KKK often don't let anyone know, whereas WBC members are usually forced into living 100% "christian" lives.
No but white supremacists (specifically the American Nazi Party) sued to march through Skokie, Illinois which had a large population of Holocaust survivors. Should that be banned as well?

If there was an important ceremony about the Holocaust, and many victims participated, and the KKK came in and said horrid things about them, then yes. The only reason they're there is to bully, not enlighten.
There is no clause in the First Amendment that declares an exception for non-enlightening speech.

Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Petition to Legally reconise the WBC as a hate group
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 10:39:22 pm »
Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom to say whatever, wherever, and whenever you please.
No one is saying that. In fact Rabbit clearly stated there are limits on free speech. But what WBC does is legal, just like the KKK having a parade is legal. Of course that doesn't make them any less of shitheads.

I wasn't arguing with anyone.
There is a difference between a KKK parade and WBC. WBC pickets the mourning at the worst time possible, whereas the KKK aren't parading around civil right's memorials, or black people's and funerals. Also, the KKK is more widespread than WBC. Members of the KKK often don't let anyone know, whereas WBC members are usually forced into living 100% "christian" lives.
No but white supremacists (specifically the American Nazi Party) sued to march through Skokie, Illinois which had a large population of Holocaust survivors. Should that be banned as well?

If there was an important ceremony about the Holocaust, and many victims participated, and the KKK came in and said horrid things about them, then yes. The only reason they're there is to bully, not enlighten.
There is no clause in the First Amendment that declares an exception for non-enlightening speech.

There is no such thing as non-enlightening speech. There is a difference between saying something and speech. Speech is to communicate and spread ideas, and it can criticize. However, what WBC is doing isn't criticism, it's just harassment intended to hurt.
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