Author Topic: Google facing multiple lawsuits  (Read 49408 times)

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Offline Murdin

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2017, 10:12:35 am »
Most of your criticisms are at least arguably correct but this one is really odd. I have not met a single rationalist/grey triber/whatever you want to call 'em that likes Trump. I'm sure some exist, but it's not at all a general trait of the subculture.

I'm not really interested in defending this rant, it was more about venting my frustrations than accurately describing anyone who identifies as rationalist or libertarian. There's a reason I wrapped it in a spoiler with a deprecating title. (EDIT: IOW, it's intended to be just as caricatural as the SJW and fundie stereotypes are for the "blue and red tribes")

I think we have conflicting definitions of the "Grey Tribe", and that's where our disagreement mostly comes from. Scott Alexander's portrayal of his chosen tribe seems to be mostly built around himself, as he constantly tries to defend its greater whole. Not sure if he is being dishonest or simply delusional about it, but in any case, the actual political "third way" that has been gaining traction among "millennials" is generally far less compassionate, conscientious or left-friendly than his idealized picture.

Alexander's actual stated positions make him, at most, bluish-grey ; his demographic surveys tend to betray the kind of people he actually appeals to. Most people who fit into the neither-SJW-nor-fundie reals-not-feels no-bullshit-skeptic mold would dismiss him as a liberal cuck poseur or something along those lines. Personalities like Carl Benjamin are much more representative of their socio-political angle ; while "Sargon" isn't very big on futurism himself, he does love to portray his stance as the triumph of hard cold science and reason over decadent politicking.

Also, I did say that Trump was a source of divisions among them. A lot of rationalist-types see him as a necessary evil of sorts, however, and are ready to jump to his defense whenever one of his actions can be justified as not-entirely-destructive. Nobody said the Messiah had to be nice after all. If it takes someone like him to overthrow the Blue Tribe with its "political correctness" and unite sensible moderates against extremists on "both" sides, well...

If you actually wish to continue that discussion, then we should probably move to F&B. I really want to be done with serious political discussions in these forums.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 10:48:02 am by Murdin »

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2017, 11:22:45 pm »
Direct question to Lana: Why aren't you taking part in this debate?

You send links to long texts written by other people and claim that as evidence that you are correct. But you do not articulate any arguments of your own. You claim that articles we have provided aren't quite up to your standards but refuse to explain which parts you agree or disagree with. The most hypocritical part still is not that after I explained which parts of the counter-counter-argument of yours I can see to be bad you told me to argue with them -usually that in itself would be the laziest way to deal with a debate- instead what I have the biggest beef with you is that you refuse to say if you agree or disagree with that particular text...

Because you show the link and claim victory over the one I had, but then refuse to admit what parts, if any, you agree with and by doing so you can later backpedal. You refuse to take a stance.

In fact, here's another direct question: What do you think about the topic of this thread? You never said who you agree if any of the people who sue or plan to sue Google.

Lana, what do you think of the original manifesto? What do you think of the stuff that you linked? Do you agree with them?

Well, I'm not as sure about it as I was, but I'm not going to reject it. As for the lawsuits, I'm going to wait and see for now.

As for why I haven't played that active a role in a debate, it's because I felt like I get personally attacked every time I post a contentious opinion. I was trying to redirect the ire away from me. Maybe it's cowardly, but I hope it's at least understandable.

And I have a direct question for you: why aren't you enforcing the "don't be a dick" rule? Because it seems like far too many people are violating it with nary a comment from you.

Now, I'd like to take a moment to address Murdin. Let me start by saying that you're grounding your criticisms in science, rather than ad hominems or irrelevant divergences. That puts you head and shoulders above a lot of people on the Internet. I can admit that your criticisms of my link have some merit. Which brings me to my next point: you hit on something regarding my motives. After Queen's response redirected the discussion to talking about Damore's memo, I was hoping for a scientific discussion about the memo itself. So the personal attacks threw me off balance, and led me to think of the debate as something more competitive, something I wanted to "win". Under a more dispassionate mindset, I think I would've been able to recognize the rebuttal's faults. Problem is, I overlooked them. I wasn't using it as a discussion piece, but as ammunition. You're a perceptive individual who helped me to recognize that I was letting my pride get the better of me, and I respect that.

That being said, however, there are some claims you made that I can't help but criticize. You say I wasn't interested in constructive discourse. In reality, I posted this with the original intent of constructive discourse. Yes, I slipped into a more "I need to win this" mindset, but that came later. While that's not an excuse, and I do need to take steps to avoid that in the future, I'm generally not focused on being "right". I also don't hate science; while I can admit that I wasn't as impartial as I should've been during this discussion, my intent wasn't originally to use it as a weapon, but to steer the discussion into a more scientific venue. While I can admit that I was using it as a weapon later on, if only subconsciously, that's not my usual modus operandi. To address the bit about Queen, I wasn't trying to bait or goad her, I just thought she was digging her own grave with unsubstantiated ad homs. And "taking over?" My "usual drivel?" I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I haven't even been all that active on these forums. And in any case, nobody forced you to respond to this, so I really don't see how posting it here was some kind of wrong against you. All I wanted to do was talk about the legal difficulties a major tech company was going through, and it seemed like the thread fit here the best.

Please don't take this as some kind of attack on you. Really, I appreciate your criticism. I'm just offering some in return. I completely understand your frustration, even if it seems a little overblown to me, and I'd like to come to some kind of understanding.

Anyway, thanks for putting me back on track. It's time I focused more on an impartial effort to determine the accuracy of Damore's claims. Do you want to post the criticisms to the blog, or should I?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 11:50:30 pm by Lana Reverse »
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Offline Askold

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2017, 02:13:06 pm »
I admit that people here have made a lot of personal attacks against you. Mainly because a lot of them are by now convinced that you are the same old shitposter who posts shit in similar ways even after getting banned.

But the thing about you getting ganged up on when you take a stance... It's more that since this forum, despite what people have occasionally claimed, is not a echochamber or a circlejerk and we can disagree. And when someone comes in with a stance that happens to be the opposite of what the majority of posters (or at least the majority of the most active posters) have they get opposed.

There is nothing wong with debating or even playing the devil's advocate but the purpose of debate, in my opinion at least, is not to "win" it is to get the answer that is closest to the truth out of all ideas that are presented. ...Well, at least in theory. In practise it is not certain that the debaters have all the correct data.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2017, 08:10:46 pm »
I admit that people here have made a lot of personal attacks against you. Mainly because a lot of them are by now convinced that you are the same old shitposter who posts shit in similar ways even after getting banned.

But the thing about you getting ganged up on when you take a stance... It's more that since this forum, despite what people have occasionally claimed, is not a echochamber or a circlejerk and we can disagree. And when someone comes in with a stance that happens to be the opposite of what the majority of posters (or at least the majority of the most active posters) have they get opposed.

There is nothing wong with debating or even playing the devil's advocate but the purpose of debate, in my opinion at least, is not to "win" it is to get the answer that is closest to the truth out of all ideas that are presented. ...Well, at least in theory. In practise it is not certain that the debaters have all the correct data.

I was expecting disagreement. What I wasn't expecting was the rude, nasty vitriol. And it wasn't just me, either. Remember what happened when Radiation admitted she voted for Trump? Remember niam openly bullying her?

Radiation voted for this President, and the evidence for this sort of behavior was all over his campaign.

Radiation chose not to see it for what it was, because "brown people taking white people jobs".

So I'll say it again.

Radiation, you voted for this lunatic. You subscribed to alt-right viewpoints and helped to elect a madman consumed by his own ego. You made this bed for yourself, with all its urine stains. NOW SLEEP IN IT.

In fact, I have another direct question: where the hell were you when this was going on? Why didn't you intervene?

Honestly, I think some people on this board have serious trouble dealing with people who have viewpoints they disagree with. When they encounter one being expressed, their reactions can be grouped into one of three categories: mockery, rage, and condescension. Oh, and let's not forget that they try to discredit with accusations. Accusations of trolling, accusations of lack of good faith, accusations of political extremism, anything will do. If I'm going to be candid, I suspect that at least some of them don't actually think I'm this guy you've had to deal with. They just want an excuse to attack me. Have things always been this toxic?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2017, 12:57:38 am »
Radiation voted for this President, and the evidence for this sort of behavior was all over his campaign.

Radiation chose not to see it for what it was, because "brown people taking white people jobs".

So I'll say it again.

Radiation, you voted for this lunatic. You subscribed to alt-right viewpoints and helped to elect a madman consumed by his own ego. You made this bed for yourself, with all its urine stains. NOW SLEEP IN IT.

In fact, I have another direct question: where the hell were you when this was going on? Why didn't you intervene?

Honestly, I think some people on this board have serious trouble dealing with people who have viewpoints they disagree with. When they encounter one being expressed, their reactions can be grouped into one of three categories: mockery, rage, and condescension. Oh, and let's not forget that they try to discredit with accusations. Accusations of trolling, accusations of lack of good faith, accusations of political extremism, anything will do. If I'm going to be candid, I suspect that at least some of them don't actually think I'm this guy you've had to deal with. They just want an excuse to attack me. Have things always been this toxic?
[/quote]

I love how you think that pointing out things Radiation did and admitted to are bullying. The alt-right ARE Nazis. No matter what weasel words they use, no matter what they protest to the opposite. They believe in the tenets of white supremacism and white nationalism, and I see no fault in calling them political extremists and trolls, because they ARE these things.

They troll more or less just to try and incite misery in those they disagree with.

I will never be nice to a Nazi and "respect his / her different views".

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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2017, 01:33:50 am »
Radiation voted for this President, and the evidence for this sort of behavior was all over his campaign.

Radiation chose not to see it for what it was, because "brown people taking white people jobs".

So I'll say it again.

Radiation, you voted for this lunatic. You subscribed to alt-right viewpoints and helped to elect a madman consumed by his own ego. You made this bed for yourself, with all its urine stains. NOW SLEEP IN IT.

In fact, I have another direct question: where the hell were you when this was going on? Why didn't you intervene?

Honestly, I think some people on this board have serious trouble dealing with people who have viewpoints they disagree with. When they encounter one being expressed, their reactions can be grouped into one of three categories: mockery, rage, and condescension. Oh, and let's not forget that they try to discredit with accusations. Accusations of trolling, accusations of lack of good faith, accusations of political extremism, anything will do. If I'm going to be candid, I suspect that at least some of them don't actually think I'm this guy you've had to deal with. They just want an excuse to attack me. Have things always been this toxic?

I love how you think that pointing out things Radiation did and admitted to are bullying. The alt-right ARE Nazis. No matter what weasel words they use, no matter what they protest to the opposite. They believe in the tenets of white supremacism and white nationalism, and I see no fault in calling them political extremists and trolls, because they ARE these things.

They troll more or less just to try and incite misery in those they disagree with.

I will never be nice to a Nazi and "respect his / her different views".

You know you posted that tirade after she admitted regretting it, right? All you did was kick her while she was down.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 02:02:24 am by Lana Reverse »
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Offline Svata

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2017, 01:42:04 am »
aaaargl flargl fix your quote blocks
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2017, 02:02:41 am »
aaaargl flargl fix your quote blocks

Done.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2017, 02:08:30 am »
Radiation voted for this President, and the evidence for this sort of behavior was all over his campaign.

Radiation chose not to see it for what it was, because "brown people taking white people jobs".

So I'll say it again.

Radiation, you voted for this lunatic. You subscribed to alt-right viewpoints and helped to elect a madman consumed by his own ego. You made this bed for yourself, with all its urine stains. NOW SLEEP IN IT.

In fact, I have another direct question: where the hell were you when this was going on? Why didn't you intervene?

Honestly, I think some people on this board have serious trouble dealing with people who have viewpoints they disagree with. When they encounter one being expressed, their reactions can be grouped into one of three categories: mockery, rage, and condescension. Oh, and let's not forget that they try to discredit with accusations. Accusations of trolling, accusations of lack of good faith, accusations of political extremism, anything will do. If I'm going to be candid, I suspect that at least some of them don't actually think I'm this guy you've had to deal with. They just want an excuse to attack me. Have things always been this toxic?

I love how you think that pointing out things Radiation did and admitted to are bullying. The alt-right ARE Nazis. No matter what weasel words they use, no matter what they protest to the opposite. They believe in the tenets of white supremacism and white nationalism, and I see no fault in calling them political extremists and trolls, because they ARE these things.

They troll more or less just to try and incite misery in those they disagree with.

I will never be nice to a Nazi and "respect his / her different views".

You know you posted that tirade after she admitted regretting it, right? All you did was kick her while she was down.

This is niam we're talking about. If he sees someone down, he kicks her. If one of her arms is broken, he breaks the other. If she's fallen into a hole, he starts shoveling dirt over her...
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2017, 02:15:33 am »
Except maybe for Niam, nobody was bullying Radiation.  She said she voted for Trump, we asked why, she said a bunch of things that weren't true and/or made no sense, we pointed out it wasn't true and she started complaining we were ganging up on her.

If someone says the earth is flat, and ten other people point out it's not, they are not bullying.

Now for a mob to start harassing them, doxxing them, threatening to rape or kill them, that would be bullying.  Paragon of course refused to acknowledge this which is why we dislike him so much.  Your opinions, style of posting, a lot of the expressions you use etc are very similar to his.  But I will admit I could be wrong and have misjudged you.  So at risk of starting that goddamn mess up again I'll flat out ask you:  do you think what happened to Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn was bullying?
 

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2017, 08:49:09 am »
I mean, she did pretty much say that Mexicans were takin our jerbs.  Yes, because the work that illegal immigrants do isn't shitwork for slave wages that our citizens deem beneath them.
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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2017, 09:44:03 am »
I mean, she did pretty much say that Mexicans were takin our jerbs.  Yes, because the work that illegal immigrants do isn't shitwork for slave wages that our citizens deem beneath them.
Well, it's more because legal workers oh-so unreasonably want at least minimum wage and halfway acceptable hours, benefits and safety. Oh, those fat, lazy, entitled American slobs, not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, am I right? What next? Socialism? Of course, rich people would rather keep as much money for themselves, so they're more than happy to hire illegals instead for a relative pittance. Add in the government actively encouraging this and at this point barely even trying to deny it, and a depressing number of Americans vehemently defending this practice because racism or something and, well, really it's just one of many ways folks at the lower end of society are being fucked with nary a bit of spit for lube.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:48:03 am by Art Vandelay »

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2017, 11:23:33 am »
Oh, I know.  I'd much prefer that corporations are forced to document all workers and pay them at least minimum wage under threat of being denied the ability to operate legally.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2017, 11:31:21 am »
Except maybe for Niam, nobody was bullying Radiation.  She said she voted for Trump, we asked why, she said a bunch of things that weren't true and/or made no sense, we pointed out it wasn't true and she started complaining we were ganging up on her.

If someone says the earth is flat, and ten other people point out it's not, they are not bullying.

Now for a mob to start harassing them, doxxing them, threatening to rape or kill them, that would be bullying.  Paragon of course refused to acknowledge this which is why we dislike him so much.  Your opinions, style of posting, a lot of the expressions you use etc are very similar to his.  But I will admit I could be wrong and have misjudged you.  So at risk of starting that goddamn mess up again I'll flat out ask you:  do you think what happened to Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn was bullying?

Okay, taking a look at what happened and... yeah, I have to admit I remembered it being worse than it actually was. As for Anita, while I disagree with a lot of what she has to say, I condemn any harassment she had to deal with. I don't know much about Zoe, other than that she apparently made an overrated game, but the same goes for her.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2017, 07:39:47 am »
I don't know much about Zoe, other than that she apparently made an overrated game, but the same goes for her.
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