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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: niam2023 on July 15, 2016, 01:17:17 am

Title: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 15, 2016, 01:17:17 am
I think - with the candidates mostly decided and Trump as decided as he might well ever be about his Veep, we could discuss the national elections here.

Some interesting tidbits - Clinton has some choices to make in regards to countering Trump's choices. Gingrich is Moon Unit. He will never escape that.

Mike Pence is batshit insane and is best countered by someone shown able to govern and who has better results than Pence.

And Mike Flynn is a blowhard with Putin's interests at heart despite his almost caricature esque personality - he is best dealt with via a sensible military involved individual.

As for some more Republican News, Trump has said that five to ten years after he becomes "in charge", the Republican Party will become a "Workers Party". This sounds incredibly familiar but I'll hold the references until it becomes unspeakably blatant.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 15, 2016, 08:31:13 am
Anyone wanna go get the platforms?  Cause the GOPs is hilarious!

Ironbite-and by hilarious I mean super frightening.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 15, 2016, 11:11:31 am
I'm really surprised the Jill Stein is at around 5% in the polls, mostly by bernie or bust. She's pretty transphobic, she panders to the anti-vaccination crowd, she is anti-gmo (despite its numerous testing and health benefits), and supports homeopathy despite being a harvard medical graduate. She is a mean spirited person who has no problem pushing vague insinuations ("Big Pharma") or celebrating the brexit vote despite it being pushed on the back of xenophobia and racism (hey, the ends justify the means). Her comments on ontheissues are only in the year that leads up to her elections, and I can't recall reading one that was critical of the GOP, only the democrats. It would be nice if during the other three years she could help leftist causes, but that's too hard for her. It's easier for her to run in elections, siphon votes from the dems, and help the GOP win.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on July 15, 2016, 03:23:50 pm
Clinton's VP will be male. If I'm wrong, may I be banished to the Island of Perpetual Tickling (duhn duhn DUHN!)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 15, 2016, 06:01:13 pm
They're...pretty big issues.  Sorry, but anyone who buys into the anti-GMO bandwagon and homeopathy doesn't need to be involved in any sort of policy-making.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 15, 2016, 07:03:59 pm
Then why call Queen on out that then?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 15, 2016, 08:05:42 pm
I'm really surprised the Jill Stein is at around 5% in the polls, mostly by bernie or bust. She's pretty transphobic, she panders to the anti-vaccination crowd, she is anti-gmo (despite its numerous testing and health benefits), and supports homeopathy despite being a harvard medical graduate. She is a mean spirited person who has no problem pushing vague insinuations ("Big Pharma") or celebrating the brexit vote despite it being pushed on the back of xenophobia and racism (hey, the ends justify the means). Her comments on ontheissues are only in the year that leads up to her elections, and I can't recall reading one that was critical of the GOP, only the democrats. It would be nice if during the other three years she could help leftist causes, but that's too hard for her. It's easier for her to run in elections, siphon votes from the dems, and help the GOP win.
You're only focusing on specific issues as opposed to her overall record.

Edit: This is exactly the opposite of what you did with Hillary.

She has only held one elected position: the Lexington Town Meeting Representative. She doesn't have "a record."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 15, 2016, 08:21:10 pm
Anyone wanna go get the platforms?  Cause the GOPs is hilarious!

Ironbite-and by hilarious I mean super frightening.

Good jorb me.  For following someone on tumblr who remotely does politics.  And without further ado....the GOP platform.

Quote
Conversion therapy for queer kids. Let me repeat that. CONVERSION THERAPY FOR QUEER KIDS.  Some members of the RNC even wanted to endorse it more explicitly than they did.

Zealous opposition to same-sex marriage. Here’s the quote:  “Our laws and our government’s regulations should recognize marriage as the union of one man and one woman and actively promote married family life as the basis of a stable and prosperous society. For that reason, as explained elsewhere In this platform, we do not accept the Supreme Court’s redefinition of marriage and we urge its reversal, whether through judicial reconsideration or a constitutional amendment returning control over marriage to the States.”

Reversing the Obama administration’s order to grant trans students access to restrooms, locker rooms, etc. The Republicans feel that such things should be based on biological gender, not gender identity.

Treating internet porn as “a public health crisis.” Quote: “Pornography, with his harmful effects, especially on children, has become a public health crisis that is destroying the life of millions. We encourage states to continue to fight this public menace and pledge our commitment to children’s safety and wellbeing[.]”

Gender discrimination. To quote Time magazine: “[T]he platform committee voted against including the word “gender” in a list of types of discrimination that should be opposed.   On Tuesday, one member described the attempt to add that word to a list including qualities like race, sex and creed as a “sneak attack.”

Repeal of the Johnson Amendment. The Johnson Amendment currently prevents churches and other tax-exempt organizations from organizing politically, endorsing political candidates, etc. Repealing it would throw separation of church and state out the window…not to mention that it would give evangelical churches and televangelist organizations much more power, driving the country further to the right.

And I'll start screaming and never stop.

Ironbite-*drinks*
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 15, 2016, 08:29:07 pm
Anyone wanna go get the platforms?  Cause the GOPs is hilarious!

Ironbite-and by hilarious I mean super frightening.

Good jorb me.  For following someone on tumblr who remotely does politics.  And without further ado....the GOP platform.

Quote
Conversion therapy for queer kids. Let me repeat that. CONVERSION THERAPY FOR QUEER KIDS.  Some members of the RNC even wanted to endorse it more explicitly than they did.

Zealous opposition to same-sex marriage. Here’s the quote:  “Our laws and our government’s regulations should recognize marriage as the union of one man and one woman and actively promote married family life as the basis of a stable and prosperous society. For that reason, as explained elsewhere In this platform, we do not accept the Supreme Court’s redefinition of marriage and we urge its reversal, whether through judicial reconsideration or a constitutional amendment returning control over marriage to the States.”

Reversing the Obama administration’s order to grant trans students access to restrooms, locker rooms, etc. The Republicans feel that such things should be based on biological gender, not gender identity.

Treating internet porn as “a public health crisis.” Quote: “Pornography, with his harmful effects, especially on children, has become a public health crisis that is destroying the life of millions. We encourage states to continue to fight this public menace and pledge our commitment to children’s safety and wellbeing[.]”

Gender discrimination. To quote Time magazine: “[T]he platform committee voted against including the word “gender” in a list of types of discrimination that should be opposed.   On Tuesday, one member described the attempt to add that word to a list including qualities like race, sex and creed as a “sneak attack.”

Repeal of the Johnson Amendment. The Johnson Amendment currently prevents churches and other tax-exempt organizations from organizing politically, endorsing political candidates, etc. Repealing it would throw separation of church and state out the window…not to mention that it would give evangelical churches and televangelist organizations much more power, driving the country further to the right.

And I'll start screaming and never stop.

Ironbite-*drinks*

I wouldn't look too much into it. It is absurd, but the GOP is at a crossroads. The majority of their primary voters are bigots and xenophobes, hence Trump's success. But, the majority of their donor money comes from a few very religious nut jobs. The donor group doesn't trust Trump's conservative credentials, so the party is pivoting to the religious right to make up for Trump flip-flopping on every religious right issue.

Not that it isn't absurd, and not that a lot of republicans in Congress don't want that, but that it's probably a tad hammed up to compensate for the Thrice Divorced Philandering Tit-judge at the top of the ticket.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 18, 2016, 04:27:08 pm
https://www.yahoo.com/news/as-convention-gets-underway-trumps-favorite-general-leaves-waterboarding-on-the-table-190302873.html

Witness Michael Flynn crib directly from Himmler. That propaganda was unbelievable when Das Reich did it 70 years ago.

Do they need to dance to Tomorrow Belongs to Me before we call em what they are?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 18, 2016, 05:52:00 pm
So uh....Iowa and Colorado have walked out of the Convention.

Ironbite-just so everyone knows how well this is going.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 18, 2016, 08:46:12 pm
Tony Schwartz, the man who was the ghostwriter of Trump's The Art of the Deal is having serious regrets (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all). He directly admits he sold out his principles for the paycheck but didn't realize he was playing the part of Doctor Frankenstein by starting a domino effect. His guilt is probably exaggerated because someone else would have ended writing the book if not him but almost anyone with any kind of principles would feel awful in his shoes.

Quote
“I put lipstick on a pig,” he said. “I feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is.” He went on, “I genuinely believe that if Trump wins and gets the nuclear codes there is an excellent possibility it will lead to the end of civilization.”

If he were writing “The Art of the Deal” today, Schwartz said, it would be a very different book with a very different title. Asked what he would call it, he answered, “The Sociopath.”

The talk about the end of the civilization is a typical hyperbole people use but it does tell how much Schwartz hates the guy. After he had agreed to write the book he tried interviewing Trump but the orange one didn't have enough of an attention span for him to get anything useful. He almost quit at that point but Trump happily agreed to let Schwartz follow him around and listen to his business calls to collect material.

Quote
“It’s implicit in a lot of what people write, but it’s never explicit—or, at least, I haven’t seen it. And that is that it’s impossible to keep him focussed on any topic, other than his own self-aggrandizement, for more than a few minutes, and even then . . . ” Schwartz trailed off, shaking his head in amazement.

...

Schwartz says of Trump, “He lied strategically. He had a complete lack of conscience about it.” Since most people are “constrained by the truth,” Trump’s indifference to it “gave him a strange advantage.”

When challenged about the facts, Schwartz says, Trump would often double down, repeat himself, and grow belligerent.

Nothing Schwartz describes is much of a surprise but he does confirm that Trump is exactly the privileged, shameless manchild he seems. The bully we see is the same person he is in private. Like Schwartz puts it, “There is no private Trump.”

Schwartz originally caught Trump's attention when he wrote an article exposing his questionable business methods and presented him as a ruthless thug. The most telling detail about Trump's personality in the whole interview is his reaction to this article. When you mock the size of his hands he will obsess about it for years but in this case...

Quote
“I was shocked,” Schwartz told me. “Trump didn’t fit any model of human being I’d ever met. He was obsessed with publicity, and he didn’t care what you wrote.” He went on, “Trump only takes two positions. Either you’re a scummy loser, liar, whatever, or you’re the greatest. I became the greatest. He wanted to be seen as a tough guy, and he loved being on the cover.”
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on July 19, 2016, 12:54:38 am
Gods the whole GOP is just turning into a massive train wreck, if it weren't for the fact there's a real possibility of these idiots getting in power I would be laughing.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 19, 2016, 01:13:41 am
It's funny to compare the Republican convention to the recent Conservative convention up here (and keep in mind that the Conservatives' campaign tactics have been heavily influenced by the US Republicans), where they did things like remove any mention of marriage from their platform (previously it had been their official position that marriage is between a man and a woman, though they didn't whip any votes on the matter), and had one of their up-and-coming MPs come out with the line "Discussing the fundamental rights of human beings is not the place for politics."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on July 19, 2016, 01:24:04 am
Call me nitpicking, but isn't there a rule against announcing yourself as a ghostwriter?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 19, 2016, 05:05:29 am
Call me nitpicking, but isn't there a rule against announcing yourself as a ghostwriter?

If there is such a rule I don't think it applies when it's made explicit in the cover of the book in question.

Quote
Schwartz had ghostwritten Trump’s 1987 breakthrough memoir, earning a joint byline on the cover, half of the book’s five-hundred-thousand-dollar advance, and half of the royalties.

And Trump still makes statements like “We need a leader that wrote ‘The Art of the Deal.’ ” He doesn't give a fuck about any evidence when he lies.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 19, 2016, 05:31:31 am
But Crooked Hillary has e-mails and Benghazi and voted for the Iraq War.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 19, 2016, 06:29:29 am
To be fair, I'd tell my principles to fuck right off just for the $250 000, never mind the royalties. That's just me, though.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Søren on July 19, 2016, 09:17:43 am
Have this bit of cancer I found.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnulKoSWYAAylNp.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 19, 2016, 10:14:39 am
She plagiarized also someone else. When I heard the speech I knew I wouldn't be the only one to catch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chpEi_QCwfo
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 19, 2016, 10:46:04 am
Oh so a few word were changed around but the essence of what she was saying and the fact that what she was saying copied Michelle Obama beat by beat isn't Plagiarism?
Melania clearly didn't know what she was going to be saying before that speech. They probably handed it to her five minutes before she went out to say it. I mean she sounds like a fucking robot reciting lines typed into a computer.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on July 19, 2016, 12:14:41 pm
If there is such a rule I don't think it applies when it's made explicit in the cover of the book in question.

Quote
Schwartz had ghostwritten Trump’s 1987 breakthrough memoir, earning a joint byline on the cover, half of the book’s five-hundred-thousand-dollar advance, and half of the royalties.

And Trump still makes statements like “We need a leader that wrote ‘The Art of the Deal.’ ” He doesn't give a fuck about any evidence when he lies.

Odd, I thought ghostwriters didn't get credited. That's what makes them ghostwriters instead of just authors.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 19, 2016, 04:08:24 pm
So day 1 of the GOP Convention.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnuoB2lUMAIfUtM.jpg)

Ironbite-how can it get better from here?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 19, 2016, 04:32:30 pm
Well, according to my RNC bingo card, if someone drops the line "Crazy Bernie" or if Mike Tyson makes an appearance and Trump talks about his peepee, then I have a bingo.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 19, 2016, 05:26:46 pm
-insert colorful Nazi reference to Trump and modern Republican party-
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on July 19, 2016, 07:28:26 pm
I love the defence to the charge of plagiarism: "this concept that Michelle Obama invented the English Language is just wrong"

The fact she did this on a day when someone spoke at the convention saying White people had contributed more to civilization than any other race is pretty spectacularly funny. (Although in fairness he was probably talking about the game "Civilization". I mean was Sid Mier white?)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 19, 2016, 07:28:48 pm
Because Plagiarism is better story.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on July 19, 2016, 07:33:17 pm
And because at this point racism is basically the GOP's hat, it's like beating a dead horse (granted it's a dead horse that needs to be beaten repeatedly cause if not, people will forget about it and that's not a good thing.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 19, 2016, 07:35:31 pm
Oh dear grief this is disgusting:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 19, 2016, 07:48:12 pm
Heh, I remember that picture from the 2008 primaries. Ah, good times.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 19, 2016, 08:02:13 pm
Heh, I remember that picture from the 2008 primaries. Ah, good times.

Yeah, but what makes this one particularly odious is that Scott Baio spoke at the RNC on Monday.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 19, 2016, 08:17:35 pm
Eh, everyone calls politicians they don't like mean names. I know I do. In fact, I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that Stephen Conroy is the biggest, filthiest cunt on the planet. So yeah, I don't know about you, but I for one have no place getting outraged when someone else does it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 20, 2016, 11:44:24 am
Yeah, radical my ass. She's a plain Jane conservative Democrat.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 20, 2016, 09:14:59 pm
Has Twitter already turned #AmericaDeservesBetter into an anti-Republican hashtag?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 20, 2016, 10:08:01 pm
The RNC in three days managed to incorporate many expies of the original Nazi High Command.

The big ugly fat one the leader consistently makes fun of and who has some of the only passable ideas in ze reich (Chris Christie)
The surly and skull faced propaganda minister who makes a living sewing hatred against those he despises (David Barton)
The faux cultured one who attaches heroic necessity and propriety to the horrors of war and genocide (Michael Flynn)
The brute who does nothing but what his boss tells him, but has fantastic delusions of grandeur of one day leading the charge himself. (Alex Jones)
The idiotic smart guy who is basically a mouthpiece for his bosses, who had a reputation as intelligent due to his station. (Ben Carson)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: chad sexington on July 20, 2016, 10:25:43 pm
Heh, I remember that picture from the 2008 primaries. Ah, good times.

Good times, man.  Remember when we thought things couldn't possibly get any worse?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 20, 2016, 11:22:56 pm
^Makes you wonder who's going to be running in 2020 that will make Trump look all quaint by comparison.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 20, 2016, 11:27:59 pm
Also, the crowd booed Cruz for telling people to vote their conscience.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 20, 2016, 11:31:31 pm
........BWHAHAHAHAHAA!

Ironbite-also Nazi salute
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 21, 2016, 12:20:26 am
........BWHAHAHAHAHAA!

Ironbite-also Nazi salute

It says something about the Republican floor crowd and/or me that the one time Ted Cruz says something I agree with, they boo him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 21, 2016, 03:20:42 am
Heh, I remember that picture from the 2008 primaries. Ah, good times.

Good times, man.  Remember when we thought things couldn't possibly get any worse?

Oh yeah. Then in 2012, the joke candidate from 2008 was the actual nominee, and once again, we all thought they'd surely hit the bottom of the barrel. But nope, they've somehow managed to sink even lower.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 21, 2016, 07:16:30 am
They must now have finally reached the bottom, right?

Oh fuck...

The 2020 Republican ticket: Phil Robertson / Victoria Jackson. Or more realistically Ted Cruz / anyone.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 21, 2016, 11:20:01 am
And then will have Theodore Beale/Eron Gjoni 2024!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on July 21, 2016, 12:15:58 pm
It's mostly made me bemused, also slightly annoyed why the fuck did the shit have to hit the fan in the first presidential election I'm able to vote in, it's like fate is trolling me or something.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 21, 2016, 09:54:56 pm
Except there's speculation that she, and hold on to your pearls here because you'll want to clutch them, doesn't actually exist.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 21, 2016, 10:48:10 pm
Watching Trump's speech in front of that crowd is too scary to bee funny anymore. It really hits home that he has a realistic chance to be the next president. Part of what makes it scary is that the fearmongering he does is not too different from the tactics some politicians use here.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on July 21, 2016, 11:09:25 pm
Hey Ironbite, if you're hanging around, isn't Trump god friends with Vince McMahon? I seen to remember a friendship.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 21, 2016, 11:13:17 pm
Hey Ironbite, if you're hanging around, isn't Trump god friends with Vince McMahon? I seen to remember a friendship.

Yeah, Trump hosted a couple Wrestlemania's, and had a storyline where there was a "Battle of the Billionaires" in which Trump shaved Vince's head. Stone Cold Steve Austin then gave Trump a stunner for his troubles.

Shortly thereafter, Vince "sold" the WWE, which Trump bought, only to turn around and resell it to Vince at double value. The storylines with Trump were stupid. Almost as stupid as Roman Reigns.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 22, 2016, 01:16:19 am
Trump promised the truth. How'd he do?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ap-trump-fact-check-1.3690469

Not well.

Quote
Despite promising "the truth, and nothing else" in his convention speech, Donald Trump presented the nation with a series of previously debunked claims and some new ones Thursday night — about the U.S. tax burden, the perils facing police, Hillary Clinton's record and more.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 22, 2016, 09:00:30 am
Hey Ironbite, if you're hanging around, isn't Trump god friends with Vince McMahon? I seen to remember a friendship.

If you're expecting any type of wrestlers going out and stumping for Trump, don't.  From what I understand, Vince keeps very neutral about politics these days, preferring to back both horses in an effort to hedge his bet.

Ironbite-and yes the Trump stuff in the WWE was super stupid.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on July 22, 2016, 10:49:58 am
No, I'm not expecting wrestlers until the inauguration. I'm just wondering if Trump is recording any help getting to the lowest common denominator.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 22, 2016, 11:39:45 am
No, I'm not expecting wrestlers until the inauguration. I'm just wondering if Trump is recording any help getting to the lowest common denominator.

If he wanted to do that, all he'd need are sports stars.  I'm sure Tim Tebow would be honoured to serve as the official mouthpiece of the braindead imbeciles of this wondrous, backward nation.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 22, 2016, 12:59:59 pm
So Hillary is apparently going to pick her VP today. All signs are pointing to Tim Kaine, or Tom Vilsack. Unless she pulls some sort of shocking pick out of left field. I don't know anything about these two other than the states they are from. Tim Kaine could help out with Virginia and possibly North Carolina. Tom Vilsack could help out with Iowa. But where they stand politically I have no idea.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 22, 2016, 01:08:21 pm
So Hillary is apparently going to pick her VP today. All signs are pointing to Tim Kaine, or Tom Vilsack. Unless she pulls some sort of shocking pick out of left field. I don't know anything about these two other than the states they are from. Tim Kaine could help out with Virginia and possibly North Carolina. Tom Vilsack could help out with Iowa. But where they stand politically I have no idea.

Something's making me lean Warren or Sherrod Brown of Ohio. Warren has shown she can get under Trump's skin, she's smart, she helps Clinton with her "beholden to Wall Street" bullshit criticisms, and bolster's Clinton's historic first woman president bit (in contrast to Trump "She had blood coming from her 'whatever'"). Brown is also quite progressive, from Ohio which is more battleground (Virginia and Iowa are very likely to go Blue this year), is a man (and if misogynists hate one woman on the ticket, they'll hate two), and gets midwest points. Downside with Warren is she's a New England Female. Downside with Brown is that Bernie really hates the guy and likely pulled some behind the scenes strings to keep Brown out of the running.

As for where they stand politically, Kaine is slightly more moderate than Hillary, and Vilsack is a moderate.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 22, 2016, 01:14:32 pm
I doubt she'll pick Warren. I don't see Hillary going very left, plus Massachusetts being a blue state already wouldn't really help Hillary out.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 22, 2016, 01:47:57 pm
My pick is Castro.  Something about him just makes me think she'll go for him.

Ironbite-also Sanders as my 10000000 to 1 long shot.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on July 22, 2016, 04:24:03 pm
I saw this ad by Clinton to attack Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrX3Ql31URA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrX3Ql31URA)

Really, Clinton?  That's the best you can do, think of the children?  One of the reasons Trump's gotten this far is that the media keeps talking about his language and insults, instead of fact-checking him.  If she really wants to take him down, her ads should say, "False!" after every stupid comment that he makes. 

Now i'm still not a fan of Clinton, but I'd think that, 'Think of the children' is something the GOP would sink to.  With all her money, she could hire someone to fact check Trump and bury him with no effort.

Hopefully she comes to her senses by the debates.  I seriously doubt B.S. ads like this will do anything but make the public laugh at her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 22, 2016, 04:49:06 pm
I saw this ad by Clinton to attack Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrX3Ql31URA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrX3Ql31URA)

Really, Clinton?  That's the best you can do, think of the children?  One of the reasons Trump's gotten this far is that the media keeps talking about his language and insults, instead of fact-checking him.  If she really wants to take him down, her ads should say, "False!" after every stupid comment that he makes. 

Now i'm still not a fan of Clinton, but I'd think that, 'Think of the children' is something the GOP would sink to.  With all her money, she could hire someone to fact check Trump and bury him with no effort.

Hopefully she comes to her senses by the debates.  I seriously doubt B.S. ads like this will do anything but make the public laugh at her.

I disagree, I think it was effective to its end. Hillary is still at a point to define her campaign because (1) she hasn't really done so yet, and (2) Trump hasn't done so yet as the RNC was just a bash Hillary fest with the old cliches of Emails and Benghazi.  When the two national party candidates have high unfavorability ratings, I don't think going negative is the right choice. But, this ad highlights Trumps bombastic tone while presenting Hillary as an even-handed and level-headed leader, which isn't that different from the effective campaign LBJ ran against Goldwater.

What is more, the ad will probably resonate differently with different groups: a white man in South Carolina may not see it that same way as a latina in New Mexico. Trump's rhetoric has already acted to normalize bigotry among children (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/09/california-primary-trump-rhetoric-school-bully?CMP=share_btn_tw). I think the ad really intends to target mothers who are black or latina (evidenced against from Trump's "Blood from her 'where-ever'" comment in the video) who fear that Trump represents the racial underbelly of America coming to the forefront of our national politics.

Besides, I think throwing a fact check into your opponent's face is most effectively done in a live debate, a la Obama-Romney in 2012.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 22, 2016, 08:47:05 pm
Welp, it is Clinton/Kaine vs. Trump/Pence. Can't wait to see the DNC next week.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 23, 2016, 04:00:26 am
It'd be hilarious to see Sanders delegates try to get someone else nominated for VP (maybe Sanders himself, though he'd probably decline; possibly Warren).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on July 23, 2016, 04:54:23 am
I disagree, I think it was effective to its end. Hillary is still at a point to define her campaign because (1) she hasn't really done so yet, and (2) Trump hasn't done so yet as the RNC was just a bash Hillary fest with the old cliches of Emails and Benghazi.  When the two national party candidates have high unfavorability ratings, I don't think going negative is the right choice. But, this ad highlights Trumps bombastic tone while presenting Hillary as an even-handed and level-headed leader, which isn't that different from the effective campaign LBJ ran against Goldwater.

What is more, the ad will probably resonate differently with different groups: a white man in South Carolina may not see it that same way as a latina in New Mexico. Trump's rhetoric has already acted to normalize bigotry among children (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/09/california-primary-trump-rhetoric-school-bully?CMP=share_btn_tw). I think the ad really intends to target mothers who are black or latina (evidenced against from Trump's "Blood from her 'where-ever'" comment in the video) who fear that Trump represents the racial underbelly of America coming to the forefront of our national politics.

Besides, I think throwing a fact check into your opponent's face is most effectively done in a live debate, a la Obama-Romney in 2012.

Yeah, sorry, not buying it.  The media has been trying the same tactic for a year now and all it's done is make Trump even more popular.  A number of people are flocking to Trump because, according them, he's 'keeping it real and calling it like he sees it.' 

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 23, 2016, 07:42:15 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36870441 (http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36870441)

Quote
He will disappoint some liberals namely because of his pro-trade position, which he will have to temper now.

DNC convention will sure be fun.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 23, 2016, 09:24:59 am
Oh it was always gonna be fun.  Expect a vote the second the convention opens.

Ironbite-and get your popcorn
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 23, 2016, 09:55:20 am
I got an air popper and an unopened tub of butter, who wants some?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on July 23, 2016, 10:20:10 am
Only if you throw in some popcorn, too.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 23, 2016, 01:01:55 pm
Yeah, sorry, not buying it.  The media has been trying the same tactic for a year now and all it's done is make Trump even more popular.  A number of people are flocking to Trump because, according them, he's 'keeping it real and calling it like he sees it.'

I'm going to disagree.  It made a certain group of authoritarian whites flock to Trump but almost everyone outside that group hates him.  The Authoritarian Whites make up about 40% of the republican party, which was enough to give him the primary thanks to winner take all states and a divided field, but he's very unpopular with the country overall.  If there had only been one establishment candidate after Iowa instead of three, he would probably have beaten Trump since early on the combined votes for Jeb, Rubio and Kasich were actually ahead of Trump.  And everybody who isn't a republican hates him, he's the most unpopular party nominee by a wide margin.  So I think this kind of ad is pretty effective.  Most Americans don't want a man like Trump in the white house, so pointing this stuff out will do a good job getting liberals and moderates to vote Clinton and non-authoritarian republicans to stay home or vote libertarian.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 23, 2016, 01:54:43 pm
If Clinton wants to take out trump and Pence she should learn how to shoot a gun then in one of her debates just unload a glock on 'em.

Yeah..... I don't think that is a very good idea. There is this thing. It is called a felony. You generally don't want one of those.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 23, 2016, 02:03:20 pm
If Clinton wants to take out trump and Pence she should learn how to shoot a gun then in one of her debates just unload a glock on 'em.

Yeah..... I don't think that is a very good idea. There is this thing. It is called a felony. You generally don't want one of those.
So Ted Cruz can kill up to 37 people but Hillary can't even kill two?

So, you're advocating that more people be like Ted Cruz?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 23, 2016, 02:17:16 pm
Ted Cruz killed 37 people?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 23, 2016, 04:21:18 pm
Ted Cruz killed 37 people?

(http://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/TedCruzZodiac.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 24, 2016, 01:00:16 am
I don't believe Cruz killed 37 people.  It's got to be more then that by now.

Anyway here's some food for thought Why we should make Trump the King of America. (http://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12235572/donald-trump-king-america)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 24, 2016, 01:08:13 am
I don't believe Cruz killed 37 people.  It's got to be more then that by now.

Anyway here's some food for thought Why we should make Trump the King of America. (http://www.vox.com/2016/7/20/12235572/donald-trump-king-america)

I approve this article because it advocates for a parliamentary democracy.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 24, 2016, 01:39:46 am
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/21/12238048/rnc-party-milo

The SA had a party.

Doubt Milo got much attention - he looks sleep deprived and just generally weird these days.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 24, 2016, 01:49:30 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/democratic-party-bernie-sanders-emails-wikileaks-1.3692491

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/

Welp.

Quote
A cache of more than 19,000 emails from Democratic Party officials, leaked in advance of Hillary Clinton's nomination at the party's convention next week in Philadelphia, details the acrimonious split between the Democratic National Committee and Clinton's former rival, Senator Bernie Sanders.

Several emails posted by Wikileaks on its document disclosure website show DNC officials scoffing at Sanders and his supporters and, in one instance, questioning his commitment to his Jewish religion. Some emails also show DNC and White House officials mulling whether to invite guests with controversial backgrounds to Democratic Party events.

Quote
Today, Friday 22 July 2016 at 10:30am EDT, WikiLeaks releases 19,252 emails and 8,034 attachments from the top of the US Democratic National Committee -- part one of our new Hillary Leaks series.

EDIT:

Quote from: MARHSALL
It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.

Quote from: MARSHALL
It's these Jesus thing.

Quote from: Amy Dacey
AMEN
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 24, 2016, 05:23:24 am
Oh fuck me this just keeps getting better and better.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 24, 2016, 07:56:24 am
...But Clinton is still marginally preferable compared to Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 24, 2016, 10:23:26 am
He'd end up getting killed faster than Garfield.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 24, 2016, 01:30:04 pm
His old comment about the Tiananmen Square is practically an advertisement for him. That's exactly what his supporters want to hear.

Quote
When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak... as being spit on by the rest of the world.

An authoritarian wants a strong leader to feel safe. In their mind a strong leader just knows when he has to make a few sacrifices on the morality to achieve stability and safety...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 24, 2016, 07:23:48 pm
Press F to pay respects (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/debbie-wasserman-schultz-resigns_us_5795044ae4b0d3568f8397f7?section=politics)

Quote
Debbie Wasserman Schultz Resigns As Democratic Party Chair
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 25, 2016, 12:04:36 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/debbie-wasserman-schulz-resignation-wikileaks-emails-dnc-1.3693204

Debbie Wasserman Schultz is stepping down as chair of the DNC.

Quote
Debbie Wasserman Schultz says she is stepping down as Democratic Party chairwoman at the end of this week's convention.

The Florida congresswoman has been under fire following the publication of leaked internal emails by Wikileaks suggesting the Democratic National Committee favoured Hillary Clinton in the presidential primaries.

That prompted runner-up Bernie Sanders on Sunday to call for Wasserman Schultz's immediate resignation.

In a statement, Wasserman Schultz says she still plans to fulfil her duties formally opening and closing the convention in Philadelphia. She also says she will speak at the four-day gathering.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 25, 2016, 05:49:08 am
http://bients.com/julian-assange-next-leak-will-ensure-hillarys-arrest/

Does anyone think that IF Clinton got arrested there could be any other result than Trump winning the elections? Because I don't see any other candidate having a chance at beating Trump anymore and although 1342014th claim that THIS TIME we can prove that Hillary Clinton definitely did something so bad that she would get arrested for it is well into "beating a dead horse" territory it is possible that the endlessly repeated claims will at least hurt her popularity regardless of the truth behind the claims.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 25, 2016, 06:41:01 am
http://bients.com/julian-assange-next-leak-will-ensure-hillarys-arrest/

Does anyone think that IF Clinton got arrested there could be any other result than Trump winning the elections? Because I don't see any other candidate having a chance at beating Trump anymore and although 1342014th claim that THIS TIME we can prove that Hillary Clinton definitely did something so bad that she would get arrested for it is well into "beating a dead horse" territory it is possible that the endlessly repeated claims will at least hurt her popularity regardless of the truth behind the claims.

Bernie reveals he is actually a lich and leads his legions of skeleton warriors to do battle with Daddy Trump and his KKK platoons throughout the shadow realms to decide the fate of Earth once and for all.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2016, 09:18:29 am
http://bients.com/julian-assange-next-leak-will-ensure-hillarys-arrest/

Does anyone think that IF Clinton got arrested there could be any other result than Trump winning the elections? Because I don't see any other candidate having a chance at beating Trump anymore and although 1342014th claim that THIS TIME we can prove that Hillary Clinton definitely did something so bad that she would get arrested for it is well into "beating a dead horse" territory it is possible that the endlessly repeated claims will at least hurt her popularity regardless of the truth behind the claims.

That quote was said a month ago (http://bients.com/julian-assange-next-leak-will-ensure-hillarys-arrest/), so he was talking about the email dump that everyone's on now.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 25, 2016, 09:38:29 am
Oh. So it's less "Hillary did a bad thing" and more "The party wanted to make sure that their member became the candidate rather than the outsider?"
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 25, 2016, 09:53:08 am
Does anyone think that IF Clinton got arrested there could be any other result than Trump winning the elections?

Purely speculatively: if Clinton got somehow eliminated from the race the main way I could see Trump losing is if the Democratic party started promoting a third-party candidate. If Johnson or Stein negotiated a deal with the Democrats they could have a chance in beating the Orange One. Otherwise the Democratic voters would probably be divided between the two of them with neither one gaining the majority. Even in that case Johnson could have some kind of chance of beating Trump since if he got into a position as a credible challenger he would draw votes also from the Republican side.

But yeah, the e-mail dump and other such issues might cause her to lose some votes since people keep beating that drum. I expect the main beneficiaries are probably third parties and not Trump unless the voters in the battleground states get really dumb. We'll see how things start going when the propaganda arms of both big parties get the heavy artillery out.

Oh. So it's less "Hillary did a bad thing" and more "The party wanted to make sure that their member became the candidate rather than the outsider?"
That's what was the main result of the dump. When saying Hillary would get arrested Assange referred to her telling someone to edit the mention of the security clearance out from an email but the FBI investigation deemed it as carelessness and not malicious.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 25, 2016, 10:15:27 am
Let's be honest. Even if the votes go from Clinton to third party candidates Trump will be the one who will benefit the most from this. Those votes will be wasted unless they manage to get past the critical point and I seriously doubt that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 25, 2016, 10:28:10 am
I don't remember the details but the smaller parties need certain amount of votes for easier ballot access in the next election. That's why they will benefit from being able to draw voters away from the two unpopular big party candidates. In clearly red or blue states this will be a bigger factor but in the battleground state voters are harder to draw away since they know their votes are critical for actually winning the election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on July 25, 2016, 10:34:53 am
I don't remember the details but the smaller parties need certain amount of votes for easier ballot access in the next election. That's why they will benefit from being able to draw voters away from the two unpopular big party candidates. In clearly red or blue states this will be a bigger factor but in the battleground state voters are harder to draw away since they know their votes are critical for actually winning the election.

I don't know.  Here in FL, which I believe is still a battleground state, it seems most people want either Trump or Johnson, and Johnson is pretty popular, at least here in N FL. 
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 25, 2016, 11:21:22 am
I don't remember the details but the smaller parties need certain amount of votes for easier ballot access in the next election. That's why they will benefit from being able to draw voters away from the two unpopular big party candidates. In clearly red or blue states this will be a bigger factor but in the battleground state voters are harder to draw away since they know their votes are critical for actually winning the election.

I don't know.  Here in FL, which I believe is still a battleground state, it seems most people want either Trump or Johnson, and Johnson is pretty popular, at least here in N FL.
I stand corrected. Hearing people talk about the importance of voting tactically has led me to believe that's a common way of thinking. Looking at the actual election results and polling data seems to refute that. By the way, this look at the data made me really worried. I hope Clinton gets a good boost from the convention.

Still, the third parties seem to get votes from both big parties and battleground state or not the winner in the polls doesn't seem to change when you put Johnson and Stein in. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/state/
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Svata on July 25, 2016, 01:17:59 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4teoxl/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/

This is just great. Nice little compilation of Trump's idiocy.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 25, 2016, 01:41:41 pm
So Trump got a convention bump and is now leading in the polls http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-trump-gets-convention-bounce-drawing-polls-to-dead-heat/.

I'm getting sick and tired of how stupid the American people are. I have no idea how in this day and age a fucking fear mongering narcissitic blow hard can make it this far. Especially from a man who makes extreme promises with no actual plans on how to deliver on them. It's truly getting scary now.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 25, 2016, 01:59:51 pm
Is it really that surprising?  This is a country that STILL daemonizes intelligence, that despises intellectual pursuits and holds up brainless athletes as the epitome of what one can become.  A country where people like Tom Cruise can still be taken somewhat seriously despite being a raving lunatic, where "militias" aren't disbanded by force despite being domestic terrorists in waiting, where the only thing that matters when you want to run for leadership of the incredibly complex machine that is government is whether or not you're popular and say things people like.  This is a country that barely blinks at mass murders, but if you dare disrespect or somehow interrupt the Super Bowl, you'd be lucky to not get lynched.  A country that spends more on military R&D than it does on fucking infrastructure.  The only two things that separate us from third world shitholes in Africa are a high GDP and an ostensibly working government.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 25, 2016, 02:31:05 pm
That's why it is imperative to invest in edumacation.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on July 25, 2016, 02:53:21 pm
Demagoguery is nothing new and there's no reason to believe it would suddenly stop working now. Trump isn't special, he's just the latest in a long line of people who know just what to say.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 25, 2016, 03:06:08 pm
No it's not surprising unfortunately, but it makes me angry.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Ironchew on July 25, 2016, 03:18:09 pm
So Trump got a convention bump and is now leading in the polls http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-trump-gets-convention-bounce-drawing-polls-to-dead-heat/.

I'm getting sick and tired of how stupid the American people are. I have no idea how in this day and age a fucking fear mongering narcissitic blow hard can make it this far. Especially from a man who makes extreme promises with no actual plans on how to deliver on them. It's truly getting scary now.

It doesn't help when neoliberals deny that the poor and middle class have any legitimate grievances with our corporate overlords. It enables an opposing demagogue who, dangerous as his rhetoric may be, at least acknowledges that they have something to be angry about.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 25, 2016, 06:29:12 pm
Hillary has to somehow unite the democratic party this week or we can be saying heil president Trump.

At least with Hillary I can kind of expect another four years of pretty much the same policies as under Obama. But with Trump I have no idea what that fucker is going to do. He's unpredictable and that's what makes him so scary.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Ironchew on July 25, 2016, 07:31:40 pm
Hillary has to somehow unite the democratic party this week

I don't see that happening.

At least not as long as Clinton's campaign strategy is saying "Fuck you" to the left and riding high on wads of corporate donor money.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 25, 2016, 07:56:52 pm
Hillary has to somehow unite the democratic party this week

I don't see that happening.

At least not as long as Clinton's campaign strategy is saying "Fuck you" to the left and riding high on wads of corporate donor money.

Jill before Hill, Johnson before... (there's got to be some sort of crude pun here, help me Art!)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 25, 2016, 08:12:28 pm
I do see it happening because within a day Trump will once again say something of world destroying horribleness and the left will remember that whatever misgivings they have about Hillary aren't worth the risk. 

These post convention bumps don't mean much and return to normal quickly.  However the fact that the normal rules of polling apply to Trump at all, as opposed to all but a small collection of racist morons refusing to vote for him is still terrifying.  If Trump can do this well, image what a competent racist could do.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 25, 2016, 09:15:15 pm
Half a day in and already the DNC has had more good speeches than the RNC had in total.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 26, 2016, 12:16:07 am
I just realized that the next elections in USA are gonna get even crazier than this. I mean think about it, you have seen Trump's campaign but imagine what his re-election tour is going to be like? He is going to have to one-up the previous campaign and distract from the disasters of his first four years in office. I expect him to murder an illegal immigrant on live-tv as an publicity stunt.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on July 26, 2016, 12:48:20 am
Half a day in and already the DNC has had more good speeches than the RNC had in total.
But what about radical Islamic terrorism and illegal alien drug smugglers who run around killing Americans and stealing their jobs? The Democrats clearly don't really care about American lives at all.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 26, 2016, 01:06:22 am
Predictions:

The Republican Party as we've known it is over. It'll stick around, but anyone who expects to win in its nominating contests is going to have to be openly racist, not covertly racist.

The Democratic Party as we've known it is also over, because there are two possibilities: Clinton wins in November, or Clinton loses in November. In the first case, she faces stiff opposition from more progressive members of Congress, one of whom challenges her in the 2020 primaries. Every Democratic presidential contest after that will be largely a repeat of this year's in terms of the policy differences between the candidates, at least until one camp wins a landslide victory over the other. In the second case, the accusations from Clinton's supporters that she lost because Sanders supporters didn't vote for her, and the accusations from Sanders supporters that Clinton lost because she's not a "real progressive" make it untenable for the two camps to remain in the same party.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 26, 2016, 03:43:29 am
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/26/republican-national-committee-republican/rnc-right-no-democratic-speaker-mentioned-isis-con/

...Because if they don't scream incoherently about the dangerous Muslims every day then someone might forget about them right? And actually talking about politics is obviously heresy.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: chad sexington on July 26, 2016, 04:47:07 am
Predictions:

The Republican Party as we've known it is over. It'll stick around, but anyone who expects to win in its nominating contests is going to have to be openly racist, not covertly racist.

Yeah, if they don't reform quickly, they're going to be haemorrhaging voters over the next few years.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 26, 2016, 05:11:21 am
We'll have a left to center right party, and a party of ridiculous Nazi re-run characters.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 26, 2016, 05:52:16 am
We'll have a left to center right party, and a party of ridiculous Nazi re-run characters.

You already have that, and the former party will tear itself apart because it's trying to encompass too many disparate viewpoints.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 26, 2016, 09:27:41 am
Is it really that surprising?  This is a country that STILL daemonizes intelligence, that despises intellectual pursuits and holds up brainless athletes as the epitome of what one can become.  A country where people like Tom Cruise can still be taken somewhat seriously despite being a raving lunatic, where "militias" aren't disbanded by force despite being domestic terrorists in waiting, where the only thing that matters when you want to run for leadership of the incredibly complex machine that is government is whether or not you're popular and say things people like.  This is a country that barely blinks at mass murders, but if you dare disrespect or somehow interrupt the Super Bowl, you'd be lucky to not get lynched.  A country that spends more on military R&D than it does on fucking infrastructure.  The only two things that separate us from third world shitholes in Africa are a high GDP and an ostensibly working government.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1917/minorities-majorities.htm

Seriously read this, it's a quick read.

Sounds about fuckin right.  As they say, "a person is smart, but people are stupid."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on July 26, 2016, 09:42:56 am
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/25/bernie-sanders-started-a-political-revolution-now-he-cant-stop-it/

Someone I actually know said he's going to vote for Trump because Sanders didn't win. Seriously?!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 26, 2016, 10:50:47 am
I remember Hillary supporters being mad, with some saying they were going to vote for Mccain. When she lost to Obama in 2008.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 26, 2016, 11:21:58 am
On one hand McCain isn't Trump on the other hand it is still the same problem. Both parties are groups of different kinds of folks with different political ideologies held together only because the members hate the other party (which is a similar loosely tied together group) even more.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 26, 2016, 08:53:43 pm
DNC e-mails, April 26, before polls closed that day:

Quote
What was the Amy meeting all about??

Quote
Hey there! It was basically just a general check-in meeting where she thanked us for being flexible as we wait for a nominee and said that she and Kaplan are in the process of figuring out what our collaboration with Hillary's people will look like once she gets it.

EDIT:

And, yes, I'm bringing up the Hillary Victory Fund again, because guess what Politico found in the DNC e-mail leak? Stuff about the Hillary Victory Fund.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/dnc-leak-clinton-team-deflected-state-cash-concerns-226191

Quote
Leaked emails show the Democratic National Committee scrambled this spring to conceal the details of a joint fundraising arrangement with Hillary Clinton that funneled money through state Democratic parties.

But during the three-month period when the DNC was working to spin the situation, state parties kept less than one half of one percent of the $82 million raised through the arrangement — validating concerns raised by campaign finance watchdogs, state party allies and Bernie Sanders supporters.

...

Miranda argued in the emails that the committee should try to shape any coverage by claiming that “while the funds are going to the DNC right now to build tools and capacity for the general election, there will be a point when the funds stay in the states to fund coordinated campaigns that are now beginning to get organized.” But in a subsequent email in early May he admitted he wasn’t sure if the coordinated campaigns with the state parties were already getting started “or does it start later in the summer?”

Wasserman Schultz responded: “It starts now.”

...

Beyond the transfers, much of the fund’s $42 million in direct spending also appears to have been done to directly benefit the Clinton campaign, as opposed to the state parties.

The fund has paid $4.1 million to the Clinton campaign for “salary and overhead expenses” to reimburse it for fundraising efforts. And it has directed $38 million to vendors such as direct marketing company Chapman Cubine Adams + Hussey and digital consultant Bully Pulpit Interactive — both of which also serve the Clinton campaign — for mailings and online ads that sometimes closely resemble Clinton campaign materials.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on July 27, 2016, 10:05:12 am
I'm honestly starting to get tired of hearing "Hillary Clinton just became the first woman to lead a major party ticket" over and over. We get it, NPR, you don't need to repeat it 12 fucking times. Yes, she's a woman, we get it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 27, 2016, 02:36:54 pm
Just to put some things in perspective: https://thenib.com/hillary-s-holdouts-were-bigger-than-bernieorbust
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 27, 2016, 02:50:17 pm
Just to put some things in perspective: https://thenib.com/hillary-s-holdouts-were-bigger-than-bernieorbust

but something something bernie bros misogyny.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 27, 2016, 02:58:45 pm
Just to put some things in perspective: https://thenib.com/hillary-s-holdouts-were-bigger-than-bernieorbust

but something something bernie bros misogyny.
Well, at least they know how to turn the blame towards Sanders when Trump wins.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 27, 2016, 05:11:28 pm
So now Trump is asking a foreign power to commit espionage on his opponents.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-conventions/donald-trump-s-plea-russian-hackers-roils-campaign-n618061

Saying: ""Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing," Trump said at a press conference in Florida. "I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens."

He's such a fucking thug. I hope this hurts him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 27, 2016, 05:15:24 pm
This would be like Hitler asking Mussolini for some help in 1932.

"Hey, Benny, its Adolf. My opponent lost some letters. Think you can locate them for me?"
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 27, 2016, 06:49:09 pm
There's speculation at the moment that Donald Trump is being funded by Putin and the Russian government. Since just a month ago Trump's campaign was flat broke, and Trumps odd pro Russian stance on things have come up now and again.
Which seems like it should be extremely illegal.
I mean this seems like it should be watergate illegal.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 27, 2016, 07:11:26 pm
This should kill his aspirations for high office but...it won't.  The GOP is too gutless to take that track.  Cause if they can his ass, they get their throats cut by a rampaging Tea Party monster.

Ironbite-not that they won't get their throats cut when Trump loses.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 27, 2016, 09:03:39 pm
https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/?file=mp3&count=50#searchresult

818 seconds of DNC voicemails, 29 mp3 files.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, over/under for attacks from Republicans for the way Giffords delivered her speech? (I'm giving 0.5, since if there's even one the Democrats will run it constantly in an ad and slaughter them over mocking a woman who suffered brain damage after being shot in the head.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 28, 2016, 12:26:04 am
This election is so fucking baffling.  Mike Pence has publicly distanced himself from Trump's latest dump “If it is Russia and they are interfering in our elections, I can assure you both parties and the United States government will ensure there are serious consequences,”.

Has this ever happened before in American politics?  With high ranking politicians like the vice president and Speaker of the house constantly distancing themselves from their own parties presidential nominee?  It's just mind boggling.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 28, 2016, 12:30:55 am
...I am waiting for the moment when Mike Pence goes to the podium with a "I'm not with him shirt" and publicly quits as the vice-presidential candidate. I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet either.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 28, 2016, 12:45:05 am
...holy sh*t those were four good speeches. Biden was amazing, Bloomberg savaged Trump, Kaine saved his speech with the "Believe me" section, and Obama was Obama.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 28, 2016, 12:48:24 am
The only silver lining is that Trump probably won't actually be president if he wins.

Quote
That’s the way things look after the New York Times reported Wednesday that Donald Trump Jr. offered Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) the opportunity to be "the most powerful vice president in history" back in May.

According to a Kasich adviser who spoke with the Times, the younger Trump said that Kasich would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. And what would Donald Sr. be in charge of? "Making America great again."

So this is probably an election between Clinton and Pence, with an angry orange yelling racist stuff but not doing anything if Trump wins.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 28, 2016, 12:59:52 am
The only silver lining is that Trump probably won't actually be president if he wins.

Quote
That’s the way things look after the New York Times reported Wednesday that Donald Trump Jr. offered Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) the opportunity to be "the most powerful vice president in history" back in May.

According to a Kasich adviser who spoke with the Times, the younger Trump said that Kasich would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. And what would Donald Sr. be in charge of? "Making America great again."

So this is probably an election between Clinton and Pence, with an angry orange yelling racist stuff but not doing anything if Trump wins.

We don't know if Pence got the same deal Kasich did. Keep in mind that Kasich has two more years as a governor than Pence and six more years in the House (plus four years in the Ohio State Senate).

But what would probably be the best line for the Democrats to take at this point is to savage Trump and make the entire election about how he's a complete buffoon, a horrible businessman, an incompetent fool, et cetera. Draw a firm link between Trump and Russia to draw off his support among old people who still see Russia as the "enemy." Continue running videos like the "In His Own Words" ones they've been doing at the convention. It's like doing LBJ's "pigfucker" trick, except that you don't need to lie.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on July 28, 2016, 01:18:22 am
The only silver lining is that Trump probably won't actually be president if he wins.

Quote
That’s the way things look after the New York Times reported Wednesday that Donald Trump Jr. offered Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) the opportunity to be "the most powerful vice president in history" back in May.

According to a Kasich adviser who spoke with the Times, the younger Trump said that Kasich would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. And what would Donald Sr. be in charge of? "Making America great again."

So this is probably an election between Clinton and Pence, with an angry orange yelling racist stuff but not doing anything if Trump wins.

We don't know if Pence got the same deal Kasich did. Keep in mind that Kasich has two more years as a governor than Pence and six more years in the House (plus four years in the Ohio State Senate).

I'm willing to bet Pence did, and if he didn't get that deal officially  he will in practice.  Because Donald Trump is a lazy, lazy man.  Just about everyone who's worked with him seems to agree he has no attention span and he clearly can't be bothered to learn anything about the most basic policy details.  That he would just leave all the real work of being president to Pence seems in character to me.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 28, 2016, 02:58:47 am
DNC voicemail leak: Most of them are pretty bland, and there's (from what I can tell) nothing revealing the way there were in the e-mails, but 16014, 16460, and 16551 are of people (maybe the same person; I'm not that great with voices) calling the DNC to complain that they're letting Sanders run, that they let him put Cornel West on the platform committee, that he tried to get Frank and O'Malley off the rules committee, and that he's being allowed to speak at the convention.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 28, 2016, 03:34:27 am
The only silver lining is that Trump probably won't actually be president if he wins.

Quote
That’s the way things look after the New York Times reported Wednesday that Donald Trump Jr. offered Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) the opportunity to be "the most powerful vice president in history" back in May.

According to a Kasich adviser who spoke with the Times, the younger Trump said that Kasich would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. And what would Donald Sr. be in charge of? "Making America great again."

So this is probably an election between Clinton and Pence, with an angry orange yelling racist stuff but not doing anything if Trump wins.

If I was a Republican this would make me more likely to vote for Trump. It would give faith that the GOP is still the old GOP and the pandering to populists is still just lies to get votes and nothing more. In fact Trump as a figurehead would serve as a great distraction as long as he has no real power.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 28, 2016, 04:27:45 am
The only silver lining is that Trump probably won't actually be president if he wins.

Quote
That’s the way things look after the New York Times reported Wednesday that Donald Trump Jr. offered Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) the opportunity to be "the most powerful vice president in history" back in May.

According to a Kasich adviser who spoke with the Times, the younger Trump said that Kasich would be in charge of both domestic and foreign policy. And what would Donald Sr. be in charge of? "Making America great again."

So this is probably an election between Clinton and Pence, with an angry orange yelling racist stuff but not doing anything if Trump wins.

If I was a Republican this would make me more likely to vote for Trump. It would give faith that the GOP is still the old GOP and the pandering to populists is still just lies to get votes and nothing more. In fact Trump as a figurehead would serve as a great distraction as long as he has no real power.

Which makes it even more imperative that the Democratic Party hammer home an anti-Trump message and make the election all about him. If the Republicans try to retort by revealing that Pence will in fact be running the show, they can paint Trump as lazy on top of everything else.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on July 28, 2016, 04:42:21 am
...holy sh*t those were four good speeches. Biden was amazing, Bloomberg savaged Trump, Kaine saved his speech with the "Believe me" section, and Obama was Obama.

Biden was amazing. I get the feeling we are going to see lots of him in this campaign.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 28, 2016, 05:00:46 am
DNC e-mail leak, May 2, exchange between Naomi Aberly and Bob Glovsky:

Quote from: Naomi
So….. Lucky you…. I have been asked to contact you about your giving to the DNC…..I thought I would email you rather than call and put you on the spot.

I know you are all in for Hillary (thank goodness things are looking good there finally), but the DNC is looking to past generous supporters like you for contributions now, before the convention. I know there is an argument for giving through the Hillary Victory Fund, but it is also important to give now if you want anything at convention….. If you do another DNC max out check now, before June 1, you qualify for a convention package….. And I am expecting you want to be there! It has been my experience that the DNC can do more for donors than the campaign can - at this point in the cycle for a first term presidential candidate -

You know… I am as up front and straightforward as possible - so there you go

Let me know what you are thinking - the convention package information is attached

Quote from: Bob
We're back for good on the 8th. I plan on going to the convention and, of course, want the best package but, in the scheme of everything, it's less important than Hillary becoming President. Happy to talk with you but my inclination is to give to the Victory Fund. Also, I'm curious who asked you to reach out. They usually call me directly. In any event, let's talk, either by phone or over lunch, as I always value your opinion.

Quote from: Naomi
Well… giving to the DNC only strengthens it for when she is the nominee and gets you into the convention -

The argument for giving thru the Victory Fund is credit or access…. If the campaign will give you more credit for giving through the victory fund and more access because you can attend a smaller event post convention with that max out check - then, you should wait - but going to convention is also part of “being there” and “getting credit”

In other words: give us (lots of) money in exchange for a convention pass, and at this point (when Clinton did not have a majority of pledged delegates) there's no difference between giving to the DNC or the Hillary Victory Fund.

EDIT: Unrelated:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoYsS4bUEAEdU8b.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 28, 2016, 07:01:01 pm
His mouth looks like an anus.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Svata on July 28, 2016, 08:28:37 pm
Wounded Kobold *dies of laughter*
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: chad sexington on July 28, 2016, 10:35:54 pm
[...]Trump as a figurehead would serve as a great distraction as long as he has no real power.

So, basically another Reagan, then :P
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Canadian Mojo on July 29, 2016, 06:39:08 pm
[...]Trump as a figurehead would serve as a great distraction as long as he has no real power.

So, basically another Reagan, then :P

Or another Bush jr.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on July 30, 2016, 02:35:15 pm
Apparently that Assange quote where he said he had "enough evidence" to guarantee a Clinton indictment was fabricated (https://boingboing.net/2016/07/29/how-a-cooked-assange-quote-end.html)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on July 30, 2016, 02:44:22 pm
Apparently that Assange quote where he said he had "enough evidence" to guarantee a Clinton indictment was fabricated (https://boingboing.net/2016/07/29/how-a-cooked-assange-quote-end.html)

...So yet another fabricated news story to attack Clinton?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 30, 2016, 04:18:25 pm
Gee who'd a thunk it?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 31, 2016, 04:15:08 pm
Quote
I stopped paying attention after Trump's RNC speech when I realized that there's no good outcome for this election for me, so it isn't worth my time.

I've found myself happier in the last week+ since I turned off the political news. Maybe it's the head-in-the-sand effect, but when your choices are Horrible Candidate A, Horrible Candidate B, and irrelevant candidates C and D, the sand isn't looking so bad.

EDIT:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/30/media/donald-trump-presidential-debates-schedule/

Trump might skip the general election debates.

Quote
Donald Trump says the fall debate schedule is "unacceptable," raising the specter that he may try to skip them.

In a tweet on Friday night, Trump incorrectly said that Hillary Clinton and the Democrats are "trying to rig the debates."

In fact, the fall debate schedule was determined almost a year ago by the nonpartisan Commission on Presidential Debates, a private group made up of both Republicans and Democrats.

His primary complaint is that two of the debates are scheduled on the same nights as NFL games.

That's true. (It was also true in 2012, and the debates were still high-rated.)

Quote from: Donald Trump
As usual, Hillary & the Dems are trying to rig the debates so 2 are up against major NFL games. Same as last time w/ Bernie. Unacceptable!

I'd find it amusing if the debates commission just turned them into Clinton town halls, or said "fuck it, we'll invite Johnson and maybe Stein, and rescind Trump's invite."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on July 31, 2016, 08:43:38 pm
What a fucking prima-donna. Good don't come to the debates you fucking baby.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 31, 2016, 09:20:48 pm
Thing is, not going to the debates (especially if they're just outright canceled) might be better for him than attending them. If he attends them, there's no way Johnson or Stein would be there. So it's a one-on-one debate, which provide way more opportunities for participants to confront each other directly than multi-participant debates do. So Clinton will have more opportunities than Cruz, Rubio, Kasich et al ever did to demonstrate her vastly superior grasp of the issues, and Trump can't just bluster and insult his way through it. But bluster and insults comprise his entire campaign strategy, and all Clinton would have to do would be to let him do that for a while, remain calm and composed throughout (the only time I can recall her really getting flustered during a debate this year was when a moderator grilled her on whether she'd drop out if she was indicted over the e-mail issue), then say, "Does this look Presidential to you?"

Whereas if he doesn't go to the debates, Clinton won't have a chance to land that line and demonstrate that contrast to a national audience.

So if you want Trump to lose, his attending the debates would probably be the best outcome.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 01, 2016, 10:08:25 pm
Oh lawdy (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/accordingtomatthew/2016/08/jill-stein-many-scientists-will-lie-to-preserve-their-status-in-the-corporate-power-structure/)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 02, 2016, 12:08:39 am
Oh dear: https://thenib.com/house-democrats-are-screwed-here-s-why
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Svata on August 02, 2016, 12:24:37 am
Such is life in America.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on August 02, 2016, 12:39:19 am
...I swear American politics are so fucking dumb.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 02, 2016, 12:52:52 am
No matter what it seems a group of uninformed, unremarkable louts who want to drag us into the laws of the 1st century will rule the House of Representatives...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 02, 2016, 01:34:03 am
Gerrymandering is one of the most mind-blowingly anti-democratic things done in American politics.

EDIT:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/donald-trump-election-rigged-1.3703650

And now Trump is saying the election will be rigged.

Quote
Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump suggested Monday that he fears the general election "is going to be rigged" — an unprecedented assertion by a modern presidential candidate.

Trump's extraordinary claim — one he did not back up with any immediate evidence — would, if it became more than just an offhand comment, seem to challenge the very essence of a fair democratic process.

"I'm afraid the election is going to be rigged, I have to be honest," the Republican nominee told a town hall crowd in Columbus, Ohio. He added that he has been hearing "more and more" that the election may not be contested fairly, though he did not elaborate further.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 02, 2016, 09:05:22 am
Gerrymandering is one of the most mind-blowingly anti-democratic things done in American politics.

EDIT:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/donald-trump-election-rigged-1.3703650

And now Trump is saying the election will be rigged.

Quote
Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump suggested Monday that he fears the general election "is going to be rigged" — an unprecedented assertion by a modern presidential candidate.

Trump's extraordinary claim — one he did not back up with any immediate evidence — would, if it became more than just an offhand comment, seem to challenge the very essence of a fair democratic process.

"I'm afraid the election is going to be rigged, I have to be honest," the Republican nominee told a town hall crowd in Columbus, Ohio. He added that he has been hearing "more and more" that the election may not be contested fairly, though he did not elaborate further.

Gerrymandering is a problem, but this most recent set (2010) has produced some long-lasting limitations on the practice. Three districts were struck by the Supreme Court for being too obviously gerrymandered, and several states amended their constitution to have independent organizations draw their districts. What these independent organizations will look like is anyone's guess (could theoretically be Karl Rove, David Koch, and Mitch McConnell), but at least it is a start.

Also, is anyone surprised that Trump made an insidious insinuation and then provided no specifics?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on August 02, 2016, 11:26:49 am
Ah but Lizard, here's the crux of the statement every other political system save for, say a dictatorship is run better than the fucking U.S.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on August 02, 2016, 12:42:01 pm
Trump is just seeing himself up, that's all. If he doesn't win, he's going to sue. Think 2000 all over again.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Sigmaleph on August 02, 2016, 08:19:55 pm
Ah but Lizard, here's the crux of the statement every other political system save for, say a dictatorship is run better than the fucking U.S.

I don't really think that's true. American politics seems somewhat better than Argentinian politics, for one, and I don't just mean the fact that you had much fewer military coups.

For one thing, this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amado_Boudou#Vice-Presidency) was never your vice president.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on August 02, 2016, 10:02:44 pm
Donald Trump has made an empire campaign out of saying things that people already believe. He's essentially a mirror of the electorate, and we hate what we see in it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 02, 2016, 10:08:34 pm
Ah but Lizard, here's the crux of the statement every other political system save for, say a dictatorship is run better than the fucking U.S.

I don't really think that's true. American politics seems somewhat better than Argentinian politics, for one, and I don't just mean the fact that you had much fewer military coups.

For one thing, this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amado_Boudou#Vice-Presidency) was never your vice president.

It's a minor miracle the US hasn't had a military coup. The system of government used in the US has been stable, over the long term, in only three countries: the US itself (1789-present), Costa Rica (1949-present, after a military coup), and Chile (1826-1973, when the US decided it couldn't allow the Chilean people's choice of Salvador Allende as President to stand).

Every other liberal democracy that's been stable in the long term and continues to be so today uses a parliamentary system (or variant thereof, as in France, under the Fifth Republic, and Finland).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 02, 2016, 11:05:11 pm
Ah but Lizard, here's the crux of the statement every other political system save for, say a dictatorship is run better than the fucking U.S.

I don't really think that's true. American politics seems somewhat better than Argentinian politics, for one, and I don't just mean the fact that you had much fewer military coups.

For one thing, this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amado_Boudou#Vice-Presidency) was never your vice president.

Eh, I'm not saying Trump will be the next Hitler style dictator, but I think it is flawed American Exceptionalism to believe that we are not susceptible to spiraling into fascism.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 03, 2016, 06:05:41 pm
So Trump's endorsers are looking to possibly hold an intervention with their candidate http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-allies-plot-candidate-intervention-after-disastrous-48-hours-n622216 considering the stupid shit he's said over the past couple of days. Like demanding a baby get removed from his press conference, to saying he always wanted a purple heart and getting it as a gift is much easier after a veteran gave him his, and his ongoing battle with the Khan family.
I don't see it working seeing as Trump will most likely be Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 03, 2016, 06:22:57 pm
I find this amusing and if true also as horrifying as anything Trump has said. Joe Scarborough cites a nameless source saying that Trump asked a foreign policy expert three times why a problem couldn't be solved with nukes (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/03/trump-asks-why-us-cant-use-nukes-msnbcs-joe-scarborough-reports.html).

Quote
"Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can't we use them," Scarborough said on his "Morning Joe" program.

This mostly amuses me because I don't believe even him would nuke anybody. I see it as him being sociopathical enough to consider it and too stupid to realize the consequences without someone explaining them to him but there is no way he would (be allowed to) push the button. This is just telling about his personality and leadership qualities - again, if this is a true story.

What is definitely true and also amusing is Scarborough's eagerness to discredit Trump after he has earlier been sucking up to him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 03, 2016, 07:59:36 pm
Apparently Trump is going even crazier than usual - Paul Manafort (who has served dictators and assorted maniacs) seems to no longer even challenge him on anything and drags his feet around. The fact Manafort had to come out and deny it in detail makes it more obvious.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 03, 2016, 08:32:28 pm
Hate to tell you SCarpelan but the Trump story about asking why can't we use nukes to solve our problems is probably true.  It fits the man's personality.  Couple that with the fact the GOP is already entertaining back up plans if Trump decides to just drop out and I think we're witnessing a full on political party meltdown.

Ironbite-it's delicious.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 03, 2016, 09:04:16 pm
Hate to tell you SCarpelan but the Trump story about asking why can't we use nukes to solve our problems is probably true.  It fits the man's personality.  Couple that with the fact the GOP is already entertaining back up plans if Trump decides to just drop out and I think we're witnessing a full on political party meltdown.

Ironbite-it's delicious.

Yes, it fits his personality which is why I gave the story any credibility at all. I added the caveat because I am not going to make a definite judgement about second hand information attributed to a nameless source just because it sounds like it could be true.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 04, 2016, 12:18:34 am
Would Trump drop out? I can't see Trump dropping out seeing that he's a narcissistic blow hard. I'm pretty convinced he thinks he's doing no wrong. I could see him more forced out of the running. Regardless it would be a disaster for the GOP.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 04, 2016, 12:26:09 am
From what I've heard Mark Cuban thinks Trump would drop out for $5 billion.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 04, 2016, 07:00:01 am
I don't think anyone's going to pay him 5 billion.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 05, 2016, 03:26:05 am
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/melania-trump-immigration-donald-226648

Melania Trump might be an illegal immigrant.

Quote
Nude photographs published this week are raising fresh questions about the accuracy of a key aspect of Melania Trump’s biography: her immigration status when she first came to the United States to work as a model.

The racy photos of the would-be first lady, published in the New York Post on Sunday and Monday, inadvertently highlight inconsistencies in the various accounts she has provided over the years. And, immigration experts say, there’s even a slim chance that any years-old misrepresentations to immigration authorities could pose legal problems for her today.

While Trump and her husband, Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, have said she came to the United States legally, her own statements suggest she first came to the country on a short-term visa that would not have authorized her to work as a model. Trump has also said she came to New York in 1996, but the nude photo shoot places her in the United States in 1995, as does a biography published in February by Slovenian journalists.

The inconsistencies come on top of reports by CBS News and GQ Magazine that Trump falsely claimed to have obtained a college degree in Slovenia but could be more politically damaging because her husband has made opposition to illegal immigration the foundation of his presidential run.

Representatives of the Trump campaign and the Trump Organization did not address detailed questions about the timing and circumstances of Melania Trump’s arrival in the country, but campaign spokeswoman Hope Hicks responded to the emailed questions by stating, “Melania followed all applicable laws and is now a proud citizen of the United States.”
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 05, 2016, 08:03:37 am
Why are nudes of Melania being released?
Is it supposed to be some sort of diversion from Trump's failing campaign?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 05, 2016, 08:15:11 am
I have the impression that it is an attack against Trump by showing that his wife did something "shameful." Why they didn't simply mention the previous horrible thing that Trump said rather than trying to shift the focus onto irrelevant matters like what his wife has done is not clear to me.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on August 05, 2016, 09:55:03 am
I have the impression that it is an attack against Trump by showing that his wife did something "shameful." Why they didn't simply mention the previous horrible thing that Trump said rather than trying to shift the focus onto irrelevant matters like what his wife has done is not clear to me.



Dude, this is America.  Why focus on actual issues when you can spread gossip like an insipid, useless teenager?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 05, 2016, 10:11:37 am
I have the impression that it is an attack against Trump by showing that his wife did something "shameful." Why they didn't simply mention the previous horrible thing that Trump said rather than trying to shift the focus onto irrelevant matters like what his wife has done is not clear to me.

They were originally leaked by Ted Cruz back in the day, which then caused the Donald, our great American feminist, to challenge Cruz to a "who had the hotter wife" competition (or something stupid involving their wives). So, the pictures were out there for about 3, maybe 4, months. One rumor I read is that Trump brought this up to the New York Post (a newspaper that endorses Trump) to run the story to distract the nation from the Khizr Kahn incident, the convention bounces, and Trump's call for espionage.

I'm inclined to believe this rumor; it's an old story, about a fucking non-issue (unless you're a pearl-clutcher), by a paper that endorsed Trump, conveniently leaked during Trump's worst week in the general election (the convention bounce gives Hillary a 75.4% chance of winning, according to FiveThirtyEight's Polls-Plus model, which is the best she's ever had).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on August 05, 2016, 01:37:58 pm
Well everyone it's time for Unskewed Polls 2: Revenge of the Unbiasing!

http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12386128/trump-clinton-biased-polls

Quote
In the face of all this bad news, some Trump supporters have taken it upon themselves to, essentially, make up poll numbers that look favorable for Trump. This is Long Room, the website dedicated to changing poll numbers so they’re “unbiased”

These poll numbers are total bullshit. The website’s methodology page claims that the tracker incorporates state data to accurately reflect the demographics of voters. But it seems that, in reality, if a pollster consistently gets results that favor Clinton, it’s deemed more “biased” — and Long Room changes the number further in Trump’s direction.

Of course, this misses the possibility that the great majority of polls aren’t biased at all and Clinton really is far ahead of Trump in the election.

Still, Trump supporters — especially at r/The_Donald on Reddit — are promoting this site to give themselves a bit of hope.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 05, 2016, 05:07:59 pm
I seem to remember back in 2008 that conservative pollsters were making up polls to make Mccain/Palin look like they were doing better than they were.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 05, 2016, 06:05:54 pm
I seem to remember back in 2008 that conservative pollsters were making up polls to make Mccain/Palin look like they were doing better than they were.

Both sides only care about those facts that support their positions, and make shit up when the facts don't have the decency to do that.

Unfortunately for conservatives, reality has a well-known liberal bias.  :P
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on August 06, 2016, 12:59:36 am
Why are nudes of Melania being released?
Is it supposed to be some sort of diversion from Trump's failing campaign?

They were released by the New York Post which has previously been supportive of Trump. There is a suggestion that Trump leaked them himself. For two reasons, one to take the attention away from the fucking awful campaign he's running, the second because he knows that his supporters will like the fact that his wife is hot and vote for him because of it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on August 06, 2016, 04:44:44 am
The other day, Page 1 of AOL news headline:  "Clinton win inevitable!"
Page 2 headline:  "Trump win inevitable!"

Then again, AOL News is notorious for mixing news and editorials together with no warning or indication until you start reading the actual article.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 08, 2016, 12:50:25 am
http://youtu.be/oeYKFRV34kY

Confessions of a Republican: 2016 Version.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 10, 2016, 04:33:44 am
"Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick, if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But, but I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day. If, if Hillary gets to put her judges, right now we're tied, you see what's going on."

Holy fuck. Just holy fuck. Trump has basically said, "Somebody shoot Hillary Clinton."

I didn't think it was possible for anyone, even Trump, to go over the top Trump established.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 10, 2016, 04:47:50 am
Trump fans and paid-Russian-trolls are on full damage control currently. Either saying that "it was just a joke" (Which is horribly missing the point. Trump has a lot of people listening to him and by mainstreaming threats of violence and revolution he may be the trigger that makes some mentally unstable person really attempt assassination of Hillary Clinton.) or the usual "WHAT ABOUT KILLARY!?" misdirection tactic. Even Finnish news reported this particular Trumpism and now there are plenty of FB members suddenly complaining about the ethics of journalism and how the media should publish an equal amount of anti-Clinton stories as well. (because that's how news and neutrality work, right?)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 10, 2016, 08:58:21 am
Just a joke, just a joke. Apparently Donald Trump is a really dry comedian because his staff has to keep covering up the crazy shit his says as "just a joke." What's the final nail in the coffin going to be? Or will that be just a joke as well.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on August 10, 2016, 09:53:38 am
What's the final nail in the coffin going to be?

There isn't one. Even shooting someone in broad daylight wouldn't touch his fanbase. Though it probably would put a damper on his plans for public office.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 10, 2016, 09:56:50 am
I actually believe he is joking but has a bad delivery. He is too stupid to realize that speaking in public is a different setting than chatting with your buddies/flunkies and if you want to make a joke in a public speech the delivery must be carefully considered. Most importantly, there are things that it's irresponsible to joke about in a speech - like assassinating a president - since it can have very real consequences. Anyone trying to explain this to him or his fans is naturally a PC pussy.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 10, 2016, 10:18:08 am
I'd just like to add this post clearing up some bs about Jill Stein:
http://doomy.me/post/148132817882/leftclausewitz-scapetheserpentstongue

There is a lot of nuance at play here, though none of it from Jill Stein. She has never gone full anti-vax, but her answer in the AMA pandered to the anti-vax crowd by implying that vaccines are part of some big pharma conspiracy to make a shit load of money and that the wolves were guarding the FDA henhouse. Her exact words were,

Quote from: Jill Stein
I don't know if we have an "official" stance, but I can tell you my personal stance at this point. According to the most recent review of vaccination policies across the globe, mandatory vaccination that doesn't allow for medical exemptions is practically unheard of. In most countries, people trust their regulatory agencies and have very high rates of vaccination through voluntary programs. In the US, however, regulatory agencies are routinely packed with corporate lobbyists and CEOs. So the foxes are guarding the chicken coop as usual in the US. So who wouldn't be skeptical? I think dropping vaccinations rates that can and must be fixed in order to get at the vaccination issue: the widespread distrust of the medical-indsutrial complex.

Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.

For homeopathy, just because something is untested doesn't mean it's safe. By the same token, being "tested" and "reviewed" by agencies tied to big pharma and the chemical industry is also problematic. There's a lot of snake-oil in this system. We need research and licensing boards that are protected from conflicts of interest. They should not be limited by arbitrary definitions of what is "natural" or not.

and

Quote from: Jill Stein
As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved. There were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines. There were real questions that needed to be addressed. I think some of them at least have been addressed. I don’t know if all of them have been addressed.

Now, she does say vaccines made a huge contribution, but she panders to the anti-vaxxers by noting potential conflicts of interest in the system and mercurial dangers that quite frankly do not exist. The "vaccine safety" argument has long been a tool of anti-vaxxers in the same way that "health of the mother" has been to the pro-life movement. It is these people that she is trying to dog-whistle at to get their support. The part about "mandatory vaccination without medical exemption" is a flat-out lie, as there are exemptions for those with immunodeficiencies or those whose health may be compromised by the vaccination. The mercury scare was resolved decades ago. Further, most members of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee do not work for drug companies, but academic and medical institutions. (http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/BloodVaccinesandOtherBiologics/VaccinesandRelatedBiologicalProductsAdvisoryCommittee/ucm129570.htm) Additionally, while drug company representatives are present, they are a non-voting minority, with no say in the FDA's end result. What is more, anyone believing that there is "snake oil in the system" is pants on head stupid as the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee's meeting materials are posted on the FDA's website in their entirety (http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/BloodVaccinesandOtherBiologics/VaccinesandRelatedBiologicalProductsAdvisoryCommittee/default.htm) for anyone to see and read. Finally, childhood vaccination schedules, the mandatory ones, are a bad way for companies to make money as vaccines have incredibly low profit margins.

And all of this is really superfluous, since all she had to say when asked the Reddit question was "Yes, we have an official stance. Vaccines represent a great advance forward in saving lives and preventing diseases. As such, Americans should receive their vaccinations on the regularly recommended schedule, for both personal and public health. My administration will work toward ensure that vaccine manufacturers can continue to produce and supply the vaccines necessary for our nation." Hell, she could've just replied with this Hillary tweet, "The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest." But she didn't. She obfuscated the issue by throwing in a fusillade of anti-vaxxer buzzwords and dog whistles about vaccine safety and corporate greed that have no basis in reality and that as a doctor she should know (and as a politician running for POTUS, she should definitely know better). That is why I said she was "pandering to" instead of "going full anti-vaxxer." She's a medical doctor, I know she knows better, but I don't think her ethics are quite there yet. Speaking of ethics, and brexit, if you still see Stein's old statements, just delete your cache so they'll disappear forever. (http://www.forwardprogressives.com/green-party-jill-stein-busted-cover-up-praise-bigotry-driven-brexit/) I wonder how much Bernie-or-Busters would flip shit if Hillary said that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 10, 2016, 10:40:06 am
Stein's comments about vaccinations are very similar to how Hillary answered to an anti-vaccination organization (http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/obama-and-clint.html) in 2008 when she was in a tight race with Obama and needed all the support she could get. Stein has problems as a candidate but the anti-vaxxer thing is pretty much a red herring distracting from them.

Quote
Do you think vaccines should be investigated as a possible cause of autism?

I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines.
Quote
What will you do to protect Americans, especially young children and pregnant women, from exposure to mercury through vaccines?

I will ensure that all vaccines are as safe as possible for our children by working to ensure that Thimerosal and mercury are removed from vaccines.

Even Obama avoided pointing out that there is no known link between the mercury in vaccinations and autism or any other serious health risks.
Quote
What will you do to protect Americans, especially young children and pregnant women, from exposure to mercury through vaccines?

I support the removal of thimerosal from all vaccines and work to ensure that Americans have access to vaccines that are mercury free.

She does emphasize the need for more research but this is similar to how Stein is softening up her comments with her talking points about the corporate influence in regulatory agencies. Hillary has a more straightforward position now but it's up to anyone's interpretation if it's a result of a tactical change or an opinion evolving as a result of more information.

Edit: changed an expression that had a wrong nuance.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on August 10, 2016, 10:51:00 am
That is true, and I specifically recall in 2008 how Hillary and Obama were rightfully flogged for their responses. The thing is, both of them moved away from, and now fully embrace the actual science on vaccines. On the other hand, any time Stein clarifies her position, she couches that clarification within the "Vaccine safety" dogwhistle. Unlike Obama and Hillary, she has yet to stop pandering to the anti-science woo crowd. In fact, that comment I linked about a fear of mercury was made less than 2 weeks ago while Stein attempted to articulate that she is absolutely not anti-vaccination.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 10, 2016, 04:06:17 pm
(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s261x260/13932901_10154662620958268_401273686261687670_n.jpg?oh=f89b852f33fade78dc12af9e5c08a689&oe=585B250E)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 10, 2016, 04:15:19 pm
One of Stein's main talking points is the corruption of the regulatory agencies and at least in the case of FDA there are some (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/corruption-of-fda-clinical-trials-reports-the-problem-and-a-proposed-remedy.html) cases (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp048286) that seem to point to either corruption or incompetence, these cases are just not connected to vaccinations in any way. Even in the Reddit AMA her point - as I read it - is that these incidents have caused people to lose their trust to the regulators and regaining the trust would in her opinion (that ignores many other factors) be a key to increasing the vaccination rates. This is consistent with a politician who has a pet issue / talking point and looks at any given problem through that prism while carefully choosing her words to avoid alienating a voter base she needs. I see this interpretation as the most probable since she has now directly stated that she supports vaccinations. Apparently the backlash has been bad enough that alienating the anti-vaxxers has become a necessity for her, too.

While there is enough smoke in the case of FDA to suspect some kind of fire Stein goes way over the board in other issues. She crosses the line to conspiratorial paranoia when she suggests that children need to be protected from WIFI fields or calls scientists attacking her for her perceived anti-vaccination agenda industry shills. On the other hand, in the FDA issue she has generally been careful to make the difference between the actual research scientists and the managers who have been the ones making the decisions of whether to study something or not. This is typical for more radical people like her: hitting the mark or near it with some issues but crossing the line with others.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 10, 2016, 06:56:04 pm
He's already bitching about the election being rigged.  Wouldn't surprise me if on election night and Hilary hits the magic number instead of conceding he uses his speech to incite riots.

Ironbite-he's a loser and that's what losers do.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on August 10, 2016, 08:13:58 pm
Incite riots and ready his lawyers for a 2000 style suing. Muddy the waters. I'm afraid he'll turn us into an even bigger laughing stock.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 10, 2016, 09:01:47 pm
"Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick, if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But, but I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day. If, if Hillary gets to put her judges, right now we're tied, you see what's going on."

Holy fuck. Just holy fuck. Trump has basically said, "Somebody shoot Hillary Clinton."

I didn't think it was possible for anyone, even Trump, to go over the top Trump established.
It just occurred to me Trump is going to encourage his followers to commit acts of violence if/when he loses.

He already encourages them to commit acts of violence (punching protestors, bodily throwing them out, etc) and they do. Incitement to riot wouldn't be anywhere near the escalation that "kill Hillary Clinton" represents.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 10, 2016, 10:08:04 pm
Trump, having Narcissistic personality disorder won't be able to accept a lose in the election. To him it's not a sign that he's a bad candidate. To him you're the problem. Or the systems rigged. I bet he'll bitch and complain for months. Demand recounts. I don't see him conceding on election night even if he's beaten badly.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 10, 2016, 11:29:21 pm
Trump, having Narcissistic personality disorder won't be able to accept a lose in the election. To him it's not a sign that he's a bad candidate. To him you're the problem. Or the systems rigged. I bet he'll bitch and complain for months. Demand recounts. I don't see him conceding on election night even if he's beaten badly.

When was the last time a major-party candidate came third in a state? 1992, Clinton in Utah? Because I could see it happening to Trump somewhere (like, say, Utah--the Mormon Church hates him).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on August 11, 2016, 04:42:46 am
[url]http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/10/donald-trump-says-president-obama-is-the-founder-of-isis/21449301/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D514418462_htmlws-main-bb[/url

So Trump is now claiming Obama started ISIS.  I'm wondering if at this point he's just trolling the American people to see what he can get away with.  Apparently, quite a lot.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 11, 2016, 11:56:39 am
Think you fucked up there Vyper.  Also he's claiming it's Obama and Hilary.

Ironbite-one fucking day.  One fucking day is all they had to control him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 11, 2016, 12:14:18 pm
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/10/donald-trump-says-president-obama-is-the-founder-of-isis/21449301/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D514418462_htmlws-main-bb (http://www.aol.com/article/2016/08/10/donald-trump-says-president-obama-is-the-founder-of-isis/21449301/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D514418462_htmlws-main-bb)

So Trump is now claiming Obama started ISIS.  I'm wondering if at this point he's just trolling the American people to see what he can get away with.  Apparently, quite a lot.
I had to stop the video when the crowd started applauding his lies and he stopped his speech, turned around and made encouraging gestures to them while just basking in their adoration. I felt physically ill at the sight. I always feel a bit uneasy when people get too excited about a politician even if I agree with his/her opinions on the actual issues. Seeing people go crazy about that narcissistic idiot and refusing to see what is in front of their eyes is just absolute horror.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on August 12, 2016, 02:32:55 am
Bit of an interesting poll asking how bothered they were by different things Trump and Hillary have said and done.

(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/v0z0qi-84UB1LbQwE32e441HPJ4=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6918259/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-10%20at%2011.23.55%20AM.png)

I've got to be honest I'm surprised mocking a disabled person was the number 1.  That's a shit thing to do, but seeing it bothering people considerably more then something like the predatory scam of Trump University isn't what I expected.  Of course there's lots of awful stuff Trump's said and done that didn't make the list so who knows.

For the record here's Hillary Clinton's results

(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/JB4Fg-5D8Sgt6kKBtcQe0XZie6w=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6918289/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-10%20at%2011.27.40%20AM.png)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 12, 2016, 04:29:30 am
Clinton opposes TPP? Good for her. And why should she release transcripts from some speech she held for a company?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on August 12, 2016, 04:56:02 am
When did she oppose the TPP?  Everything I've read for her said she supported it.  Also, people are suspicious of those speeches because she was paid quite a great deal for each of them, meaning those companies might want something in return.

I'm surprised there's no mention of concern with her relationships to Wall Street, etc., and whether she really would regulate them and the big banks.  That's one of my main concerns.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 12, 2016, 05:05:31 am
When did she oppose the TPP?  Everything I've read for her said she supported it.  Also, people are suspicious of those speeches because she was paid quite a great deal for each of them, meaning those companies might want something in return.

She's said she opposes it now and that she will continue to do so. Not everybody is convinced that this is a legitimate change of heart and not a ploy to win over potential Sanders voters given that she previously called it the "gold standard" of international trade agreements.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 12, 2016, 08:11:11 am
As long as the political cost of supporting it is greater than the benefit she will continue to oppose it. She is already disliked and angering too many people would put her re-election chances in a great danger - assuming that there is no unexpected turn of events and she wins the presidency in the first place, of course.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 12, 2016, 08:32:48 am
It's actually been a long time coming with her.  She was all for TPP when it first popped up on the collective radar but as the years gone by she's reversed course on that to the point she opposes it.  It's not really a political about face to pander to the Berners but its kinda suspicious.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 12, 2016, 08:33:54 am
As long as the political cost of supporting it is greater than the benefit she will continue to oppose it. She is already disliked and angering too many people would put her re-election chances in a great danger - assuming that there is no unexpected turn of events and she wins the presidency in the first place, of course.

I strongly suspect that no matter what she does should she win, she will face a primary challenge in 2020. I'm not sure who will mount it, but somebody will challenge her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 12, 2016, 09:25:18 am
As long as the political cost of supporting it is greater than the benefit she will continue to oppose it. She is already disliked and angering too many people would put her re-election chances in a great danger - assuming that there is no unexpected turn of events and she wins the presidency in the first place, of course.

I strongly suspect that no matter what she does should she win, she will face a primary challenge in 2020. I'm not sure who will mount it, but somebody will challenge her.
The more reason not to alienate too many people. She needs all the support she can get.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on August 15, 2016, 01:51:00 am
Trump will be disappointed in America if he doesn't win and will 'never forgive voters':

http://www.smh.com.au/video/video-news/video-world-news/trump-will-never-ever-forgive-voters-if-he-loses-20160814-4ja4h.html (http://www.smh.com.au/video/video-news/video-world-news/trump-will-never-ever-forgive-voters-if-he-loses-20160814-4ja4h.html)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 15, 2016, 05:19:55 am
I don't think he understands how this whole voting thing works
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on August 15, 2016, 09:37:22 am
I'm pretty sure Trump doesn't understand how life works.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 16, 2016, 03:08:00 am
Going back to the Onion video (http://www.theonion.com/video/after-obama-victory-shrieking-white-hot-sphere-of--30284) where they correctly predicted the 2016 Republican nominee for President, they almost got the Vice-Presidential nominee right. They predicted the "dark ominous cloud of racism." Three letters off, I think.

(They also said one of the Democratic contenders would be the "magical ark of empty promises.")
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 18, 2016, 02:13:25 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/16/us/politics/hillary-clinton-transition-team.html?_r=0

Hillary Clinton has named her transition team. The chair? Ken Salazar.

Quote
Hillary Clinton’s campaign announced on Tuesday that Ken Salazar, the former interior secretary and Colorado senator, would become chairman of Mrs. Clinton’s transition planning team.

The effort, which will be based out of Washington, is aimed at preparing Mrs. Clinton and her team to enter the White House after the November election if she wins — an operation intended to be largely separated from Mrs. Clinton’s campaign apparatus in Brooklyn.

The campaign said Mr. Salazar would lead four team members: Tom Donilon, who served as national security adviser under President Obama; Jennifer Granholm, the former governor of Michigan; Neera Tanden, the president of the Center for American Progress; and Maggie Williams, the director of Harvard’s Institute of Politics and a longtime Clinton confidante.

Salazar is a Senator-turned-Secretary-turned-"lobbyist" who thinks the TPP is great (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/11/05/pass-trans-pacific-partnership-safeguard-environment-sustainability-column/75151722/) and claimed that there were no cases of environmental damage resulting from fracking (http://www.coloradoindependent.com/160740/ken-salazar-hillary-clinton).

And this is who Hillary Clinton has picked to head her transition team.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: lord gibbon on August 18, 2016, 02:45:02 am
Aaand to the surprise of no one who was paying attention, Clinton's progressivism has all been a sham. I wouldn't be surprised if she went forward with the TPP within days of taking office.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 18, 2016, 03:17:48 am
Aaand to the surprise of no one who was paying attention, Clinton's progressivism has all been a sham. I wouldn't be surprised if she went forward with the TPP within days of taking office.

I think Obama will try to force it through before then so that she can continue to run against it, and then get into office, throw her hands up and say there's nothing she can do.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 18, 2016, 04:37:12 am
What in all are the details on this TPP thing? I mean, I hear people bring it up a lot, but nobody ever says much more than how terrible it is.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 18, 2016, 04:41:44 am
That's because the treaty is secret. Not even most of the politicians who are supposed to vote for/against it have been allowed to see the treaty. The few who have seen it have been forbidden to mention anything that is IN the treaty (also they have limited time, the treaty is massive and they aren't allowed any way to check the references in it.)

So yeah, it could be that the treaty isn't massively evil but if it's full of rainbows and unicorns then how come it needs to be passed in secret?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 18, 2016, 04:43:21 am
What in all are the details on this TPP thing? I mean, I hear people bring it up a lot, but nobody ever says much more than how terrible it is.

Among other things: It harmonizes copyright laws among the signatories, generally making them more restrictive.

It lets multinational corporations sue signatory countries over laws that cut into those companies' profits. The suit is brought before an international tribunal of corporate lawyers and there is no appeal.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 18, 2016, 04:50:02 am
What in all are the details on this TPP thing? I mean, I hear people bring it up a lot, but nobody ever says much more than how terrible it is.

Among other things: It harmonizes copyright laws among the signatories, generally making them more restrictive.

It lets multinational corporations sue signatory countries over laws that cut into those companies' profits. The suit is brought before an international tribunal of corporate lawyers and there is no appeal.


That latter bit seems to have the most horror stories about it.

"EBIL-Megacorp-1 decides to use Polish schools as storage to radioactive waste. Poland goes 'why the hell didn't we have a law against this already?' and signs such a law. EBIL-Megacorp-1 sues Poland and gets paid as much money as they estimate they could have profited with their plan to put radioactive waste in schools."

Or more likely when a country tries to stop fracking, outlaw tobacco or something like that the TPP would be used to sue them.

Have the rumours been exaggerated? Possibly. The Pro-TPP people claim so but they refuse to show what the treaty really contains.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 18, 2016, 05:14:14 am
What in all are the details on this TPP thing? I mean, I hear people bring it up a lot, but nobody ever says much more than how terrible it is.

Among other things: It harmonizes copyright laws among the signatories, generally making them more restrictive.

It lets multinational corporations sue signatory countries over laws that cut into those companies' profits. The suit is brought before an international tribunal of corporate lawyers and there is no appeal.


That latter bit seems to have the most horror stories about it.

"EBIL-Megacorp-1 decides to use Polish schools as storage to radioactive waste. Poland goes 'why the hell didn't we have a law against this already?' and signs such a law. EBIL-Megacorp-1 sues Poland and gets paid as much money as they estimate they could have profited with their plan to put radioactive waste in schools."

Or more likely when a country tries to stop fracking, outlaw tobacco or something like that the TPP would be used to sue them.

Have the rumours been exaggerated? Possibly. The Pro-TPP people claim so but they refuse to show what the treaty really contains.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text


EDIT: That said, the fact that it was negotiated in complete secrecy is enough for me to reject it not even knowing anything else about it; nothing that has to be kept so hidden can be good.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on August 18, 2016, 09:05:27 am
The secrecy about TPP and TTIP sounds sometimes like something Douglas Adams would come up with. For example, when the TTIP documents were made available for the Finnish parliament members they were allowed to see it only during few hours on Thursdays. This short time they were available just happened to coincide with the time of the week when the representatives are busy with their subcomittee meetings.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 18, 2016, 08:04:23 pm
I know I just hated on Hillary Clinton, so here's some positive news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/clinton-global-initiative-president-changes-1.3727199

Quote
Hillary Clinton's family foundation will no longer accept foreign and corporate donations if she is elected president, and will bring an end to its annual Clinton Global Initiative meeting regardless of the outcome of the November election.

Former President Bill Clinton made the announcement at an afternoon meeting with foundation staff members, according to participants who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity ahead of the formal announcement.

Bill Clinton said the foundation plans to continue its work, but intends to refocus its efforts in a process that will take up to a year to complete. The former president, who turns 70 on Friday, said he will resign from the board, and the foundation will only accept contributions from U.S. citizens and independent charities.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 19, 2016, 08:22:31 am
Well damn.  That's amazingly self aware of them.

Ironbite-and makes sense as its been found out that people used donations into the Clinton Foundation to get State Department access.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 19, 2016, 01:56:56 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-trump-payments-1.3727567

And Paul Manafort is out as Trump's campaign chairman.

Quote
Donald Trump's campaign chairman Paul Manafort resigned on Friday in the wake of campaign shake-up and revelations about his work in Ukraine.

...

Manafort's resignation comes a day after The Associated Press reported that confidential emails from Manafort's firm contradicted his claims that he had never lobbied on behalf of Ukrainian political figures in the U.S.

Emails between Manafort's deputy, Rick Gates, also a top Trump adviser, and the lobbying firm Mercury LLC showed that Manafort's firm directly orchestrated a covert Washington lobbying operation on behalf of Ukraine's then-ruling political party.

The effort included not just legislative outreach but also attempts to sway American public opinion and gather political intelligence on competing lobbying efforts in the U.S.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 19, 2016, 02:26:28 pm
Yeah that was gonna happen.  First sane thing this campaign has done.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 19, 2016, 03:11:22 pm
...The guy who has worked for several horrible dictators could only stand Trump for a few months?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on August 20, 2016, 02:02:20 am
Allegedly one of Paul Manafort's friends told a reporter  “He wanted to do his thing on home turf. He wanted one last shot at the big prize.”  If true I imagine he must feel very disappointed right now.

And in other news, Trump's Foreign Policy adviser is a holocaust denier.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donald-trump-foreign-adviser-accused-anti-semitism-article-1.2757054

Quote
Joseph Schmitz is accused of bragging about firing Jewish staffers during his time as inspector general at the Pentagon from April 2002 to September 2005, according to a complaint obtained by McClatchy.

In the complaint, Daniel Meyer, a senior officer, pointed out a conversation Schmitz had with former top Pentagon official John Crane where the current Trump adviser downplayed the severity of the Holocaust.

“In his final days, he allegedly lectured Mr. Crane on the details of concentration camps and how the ovens were too small to kill 6 million Jews,” Meyer wrote in the complaint, according to reports.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on August 26, 2016, 12:54:13 pm
BBC has an article on the Alt-right and how they have latched onto Trump: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37021991?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

It remains to be seen what happens to them after the elections. If Trump wins will they take over the GOP? If Trump loses will the movement go back to hiding beneath rocks and writing mean stuff on the net or will they try to mobilize and become a semi-permanent part of the GOP like the TEA party did?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 27, 2016, 03:30:55 pm
Not even bothering to make a thread about this.  Trump needs to have his Droid taken away.  He tweeted that the death of Dwyane Wade's cousin would cause blacks to vote for him.

Ironbite-the body isn't even cold and he's making it all about him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 27, 2016, 05:47:08 pm
Just keep sabotaging your own campaign, Donald.

Also, more and more Bannon and Conway are being subsumed in controversy related to the racism inherent in the alt-right, and thus, before long, they'll go the way of Manafort - who similarly let his scandals weigh him down.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 09, 2016, 02:02:19 am
So, there was supposed to be a televised interview of Clinton and Trump and how they would lead the US military if they are elected... It didn't work out well.

https://warisboring.com/nbc-shows-america-how-not-to-interview-presidential-candidates-about-the-military-8ad4f97658af#.w8cfj8wcp

Quote
OK. Let’s do this. I’ve been waiting for this. Let’s ask Clinton about the drone program, shadow operations in Africa and what the war in Iraq taught her about foreign policy and the limits of military force. Let’s press Trump on NATO commitments and get specifics on his plan to deal with the Islamic State.

I want to know what both candidates think of ballooning military budgets, nuclear modernization and growing tensions on Russia’s borders.

That’s not what happened. Instead, Lauer and the veterans grilled Clinton on her emails for 10 of her 30-minute time slot, and Trump said a bunch of bizarre things that, in any other election cycle, would disqualify him from office.

So business as usual.

Oh wow:
Quote
Trump then blamed Obama for the Islamic State and advocated imperial, blood-and-treasure foreign policy as a solution for Islamic extremism. “Take the oil,” he said. “If we would have taken the oil, you wouldn’t have ISIS.”

“How are we going to take the oil,” a bewildered Lauer asked. “How are we going to do that?”

Trump didn’t have a clear answer. “It used to be that to the victor belonged the spoils,” he said after rambling about the beauty of Iraq’s oil. “I always said take the oil. One of the benefits we would have had if we had taken the oil is ISIS wouldn’t have had the oil to fuel themselves.”

Imagine how that would have gone? USA invading countries "BECUZ OF NINE EHLEVEN! AND THE WMDS!" and then stealing natural resources from them? Oh boy, maybe Trump has been playing Civilization and thinks that you can just go and start a war with a random country and not worry about what it does to international politics.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 09, 2016, 02:46:55 am
"We're losing our jobs like a bunch of babies."

The fuck is that supposed to mean?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on September 09, 2016, 03:04:12 am
I can tell Matt Lauer probably wants a job in the Trump Administration.

Probably doing work for whoever the fuck is filling in for Goebbels.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 09, 2016, 03:36:14 am
I can tell Matt Lauer probably wants a job in the Trump Administration.

Probably doing work for whoever the fuck is filling in for Goebbels.

One explanation I saw is that Lauer approached the town hall the way the media has been approaching Democrats and Republicans for decades: tough on Democrats, soft on Republicans, because otherwise they have a "liberal bias."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 09, 2016, 08:42:49 am
He approached that because the media needs a horse race.  Because if there isn't, the ratings they'll get from this is abysmal.  That's why Trump's been discussed to death while Clinton is ignored.  Cause otherwise they get no money.

Ironbite-and they don't want to not get any money.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 12, 2016, 08:41:11 am
One of the bigger Finnish newspapers had an article stating that this controversy over Hillary Clinton's health may win the elections for Trump.

If (and that's a big IF) Trump manages to keep his mouth in check the scandal-ball may continue to grow and make Clinton seem unfit for presidency. Whether or not any of that is true does not matter as long as enough of the voters think that she is unfit and consider it to be a deciding factor.

...Why they wouldn't still think that Kaine is a better president-to-be than Trump is a mystery.

I'm linking the article but it's in Finnish and I think I already got the main points explained: http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/a1473645679833
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 12, 2016, 03:44:25 pm
Guess what?

Ironbite-Trump opened his mouth.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 13, 2016, 12:27:37 am
Guess what?

Ironbite-Trump opened his mouth.
...And what did he say?

EDIT:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZKX6069.jpg)

FUCK YES!

Unfortunately people are already crying and claiming that he is "biased."

SHOW ME WHERE HE WAS BIASED! Because honestly, he was remarkably fair to people he didn't agree with when they came to his show. Certainly he didn't let obvious lies go unchallenged and if you think that Trump shouldn't go near Stewart because he would get his ass kicked metaphorically then that's a valid concern but it wouldn't be because of any bias.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 13, 2016, 05:06:02 am
Stewart was biased in favour of reality.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on September 13, 2016, 09:53:46 am
And unfortunately reality tends to have a liberal bias.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 14, 2016, 12:10:37 am
Where were you when Hillary Clinton started to fight against memes?

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/post/donald-trump-pepe-the-frog-and-white-supremacists-an-explainer/

...Actually, where were you when white nationalists took over the screaming frog meme?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on September 15, 2016, 01:11:57 pm
Where were you when Hillary Clinton started to fight against memes?

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/post/donald-trump-pepe-the-frog-and-white-supremacists-an-explainer/

...Actually, where were you when white nationalists took over the screaming frog meme?

Why did the screaming frog meme ever exist? I mean, I love Trollface as much as anyone else, but what did Pepe ever symbolize to begin with?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 16, 2016, 01:46:36 am
Why did the screaming frog meme ever exist? I mean, I love Trollface as much as anyone else, but what did Pepe ever symbolize to begin with?

Know your meme has a decent article on it: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepe-the-frog

Short version: It started with a character called Pepe from an apparently horrible webcomic saying "Feels good man" while peeing which was separated into a meme. Then slightly changed into "Feels bad man" and then it went through various stages with the "REEEEEEE!" screaming frog being one of them (and the people who use it are more often than not horrible people complaining about women, non-whites and non-fat-ugly-people who try to join THEIR hobby and assuming that everyone else in said hobby, RPGs usually, is as racist and misogynistic as they are.)

Then for no apparent reason some racist right-wingers who liked the meme decided that they are going to steal it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 23, 2016, 10:01:01 pm
Meanwhile, Bill Clinton goes on CNBC and says, essentially, "We're going to cut corporate tax rates and support the TPP."

Hillary Clinton is not a progressive.

Hillary Clinton is not a progressive.

Hillary Clinton is not a progressive.

Repeat ad nauseam.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 23, 2016, 10:43:20 pm
The US doesn't know what progressive even means. The country has been moving further and further to the right over the past thirty years that a centrist republican like Hillary is seen as being too progressive. When really she's just a run of the mill old-school republican.
My uber conservative father in law told me that Obama is the most liberal president he's ever seen like it's a bad thing. When Obama has been pretty centrist on fiscal issues as well.
If things don't change soon someone like Donald Trump will be too liberal and well just accept someone like him as our democratic candidate. I cringe at the thought of how much worse a conservative candidate can become.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 24, 2016, 12:47:36 am
Quote from: Paul Campos, Lawyers, Guns and Money
Here’s a good way to appreciate just how far right you have to go to get to Ted Cruz territory: imagine how left-wing a Democratic presidential candidate would have to be to be Cruz’s mirror image. Such a candidate would have to make George McGovern and the 1970s Congress, dominated by liberal Democrats, look conservative.

To get that far left, we would have to be talking about someone who, for example, would be pushing for eliminating private healthcare, outlawing handgun ownership, guaranteeing a minimum personal income, putting a $5 per gallon tax on gasoline, and imposing a 100 percent estate tax….

Over the past half-century, the GOP has gradually transformed itself from a moderately conservative institution into a hard right social movement. And Ted Cruz represents the far right wing of a party that has gotten so radicalized that it would be barely recognizable to Dwight Eisenhower.

This November Americans will likely face the choice of voting for either, on the one hand, the contemporary equivalent of Eisenhower, and on the other, either a quasi-fascist at the head of a bargain basement cult of personality, or someone who thinks Barry Goldwater was too liberal.

EDIT: Also, plenty of Americans know what progressive means; they're called "Sanders voters" or "Stein voters." It's the Democratic and Republican parties who don't have a f*cking clue.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 24, 2016, 03:55:59 pm
Bernie Sanders being a candidate for democratic presidency is promising. It shows that the younger crowd of voters is increasingly progressive. The pendulum has to start swinging the other way eventually. Right now it's the younger more liberal millennials versus the increasingly conservative baby boomers who have all of the power and money right now.
Hopefully a trend of progressive candidates starts to take steam in the future elections.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 24, 2016, 04:13:16 pm
The problem is that a lot of the progressives out there are no longer in office (Alan Grayson), too inexperienced (Zephyr Teachout), not ever elected (Tim Canova), vehement Clinton supporters (Sherrod Brown), or somewhat discredited (Elizabeth Warren).

Bernie had a record of fifty years of being on the right side of nearly every issue. He should have run on it.

For instance, his civil rights record (http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Bernie-Sanders-Arrest-2.jpg), when at the same time Clinton was a Goldwater supporter and thirty years later delivered her "super predators" line. Or his vote against DOMA, or the Iraq War.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 24, 2016, 04:30:12 pm
Indeed it is a problem. But one can hope that as millennials get older they'll more likely vote in more progressive officials. Sigh that's just wish ful thinking.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 27, 2016, 04:01:56 am
According to Trump fans he won the debate. Everyone else who watched the debate, including neutral parties, seem to disagree but this makes no difference and copypastas claiming that "Trump answered and countered all the accusations towards him while Hillary was just reading a script instead of telling what she thinks" are spreading on the net.

Now the only thing that can make a difference is whether the undecided voters bother to check things or will they merely buy the Trump narrative.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 27, 2016, 05:24:19 am
Trump kept his aggressive posture and tone of voice even when he was desperately grasping to his talking points and constantly repeating himself. That and the fact that he had actually prepared for the most obvious attacks and countered them with confident lies is enough for his fans. I hope it won't fool too many undecided voters.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 27, 2016, 07:47:20 am
From what I saw, Hillary was all but laughing the entire time, especially when Trump started adding -er to random words like a 5 year-old.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 27, 2016, 09:28:34 am
What I took out of the debate is Trump wants to continue the bullshit of trickle down economics that had plagued our country for the past 16 years and in fact make it worse than it ever was. Hillary wants to invest in the middle-class and make the rich pay their fair share. Trump had absolutely fuck all to say about minority and police relations and no foreign policy experience other than to implement ideas that have proven to not work in the past. Hillary did a good job of making Trump out to be dangerous for our country. Sadly I think the American people will see it differently.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on September 27, 2016, 01:34:55 pm
She owned him in the debates. She had him on the defensive most of the time. He let shots go by (like the emails), backpeddling the birther movement. It was watching a kid's first time at the adult table.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 27, 2016, 02:22:32 pm
He had some good moments in the first half-hour.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on September 27, 2016, 02:53:14 pm
He came out the first 15 minutes swinging. But after he lost that momentum, Hilary kinda took over from there.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 27, 2016, 03:18:01 pm
/pol/ spent last night doing damage control and raiding online opinion polls.

Ironbite-and still couldn't bring them over to Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on September 27, 2016, 04:14:11 pm
He spent more than half his time saying that everything sucks. I've talked to people who plan to vote R. Their reasoning is that the status quo is so bad that anything would be an improvement.

Since he apparently knows that and is deliberately tapping into that kind of bitterness. Yeah. That's pretty scary.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 27, 2016, 04:35:45 pm
I don't think the tactic started as a deliberate plan, it sounds like it's just him being one of those people himself. His handlers might have convinced him to shut up about it if it hadn't worked out well for him, though.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on September 27, 2016, 06:42:23 pm
My favorite part was when Trump didn't know that sinking another countries ships would in fact be starting a war.  Or maybe when he said he had a great temperament.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 27, 2016, 07:30:40 pm
Yeah like seriously any ten year old would tell you that if you attack another countries boats, that that's a declaration of war. Trump is a fucking dumbass.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 27, 2016, 09:19:17 pm
Trump is a fucking dumbass.

And that's why his voters like him, and if the Democrats hadn't put up someone who's as monumentally unpopular (while campaigning, which is what matters) as Hillary Clinton, who's bleeding support to Johnson and Stein, and who repeatedly put her finger in the eye of Sanders voters, simply assuming they'd come around because TRUMP!!!1!!1!1!11!, causing her to bleed even more support to Johnson, Stein, and even Trump, the Democratic nominee (read: Sanders) would be winning by a landslide (and even Frank Luntz says he would be).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on September 27, 2016, 11:40:28 pm
TRUMP DIDN'T LOSE THE DEBATE, HE JUST HAD A BROKEN MICROPHONE!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/they-gave-me-a-defective-mic-donald-trump-claims-after-heated-de/

That's why he interrupted and threw tantrums like a five year old, had no idea what he was talking about, lied constantly and attacked Rosie O'Donnell for no reason.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on September 27, 2016, 11:43:22 pm
Skybison, the mine wasn't defective, however there was a loose but behind it.

That was the setup, right?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 28, 2016, 02:51:38 am
Honestly, Trump with his post-factual lies and spin that work so well on his fans would on the other hand be completely ineffectual with foreign leaders. What he is doing is no different from the "official truth" that dictators like Kim dynasty or Saddam had going on. It only works for the in-group and even then some people will always question the truth of those claims. His cult of personality can't see him doing anything wrong but outsiders (like most/all of us here) see it all too clearly. Foreign leaders would either run circles around him and try to fool him into agreeing to stuff that benefits their country, regardless of how costly it would be to USA or break ties with him and wait for a stable leader to rise to power in USA because he is far too erratic to be trusted and too treacherous when he is doing something pre-planned.

But forget about that shit ...BECAAAUSE: Here come the Crazy Clinton Conspiracies!

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/hidden-wires-mechanism-kind-clearly-seen-hillary-clintons-jacket/

DID SHE WEAR A DEFIBRILLATOR UNDER HER SUIT BECAUSE HER WEAK LIZARDMAN HEART COULD STOP FUNCTIONING AT ANY GIVEN SECOND?

...Actually I think the image they start this theory with has the two upper arrows pointing at her bra. The rectangular thing back down could be something nefarious. ...Or a corset.

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14516449_10154646169698836_4697203462382591479_n.jpg?oh=b3e171e196abe26c4299dd9676f49f23&oe=58701546)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 28, 2016, 08:39:12 am
Isn't the wire that runs the length of your back normally called a "spine".

Maybe it's because the Donald doesn't have one of those.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 28, 2016, 09:07:20 am
Wasn't Trumps spat with Rosie Odonnel back in the 90s or really 2000's? I mean get over it already.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 28, 2016, 09:17:34 am
Drumpf is pretty much the most petty motherfucker in existence.  Seriously, one guy quipped about his hands, and he lost his shit.  Now, its a running joke, because that's what Drumpf is, at the end of the day: a joke that's been taken way, way too far.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 28, 2016, 09:50:17 am
Twitter has a popular hashtag saying that Trump won. Most of the people claiming that seem to be tweeting from Russia...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 28, 2016, 08:18:16 pm
Trump being gracious. (https://twitter.com/peterwsinger/status/780607277938147328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

/s
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 28, 2016, 09:20:29 pm
I've seen people spreading rumors about Alicia Machado, the former Miss Universe who has opened up about Trump's emotional abuse. They claim she has had a relationship with a drug lord and has admitted to having been an accomplice in a murder. It seems Trump's allies are trying to neutralize any damage she might to to him by a campaign of lies. This is probably meant to give people who support Trump and whom she might have caused to hesitate even slightly an excuse to ignore her.

Personally, I have no interest in trying to find out if these rumors have any truth in them (I would be surprised if this was the case) since they are a pure red herring: she could be the most horrible human being alive and that would not excuse Trump's behaviour at all.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on September 29, 2016, 02:20:36 am
This is a very good example of how the two candidates are being judged differently:

Quote
I was disappointed with Hillary's performance. I thought she should be more serene and dignified in response to Trump's rude yelling and bully boy behavior.

Note, he agrees that Trump is acting like a "bully boy" but he still thinks that Hillary's performance wasn't good enough either.

Quote
Why? Because she's a woman and you think women
should know their place?
(I wasn't the only sensible person there and for clarity's sake I will add the rebuttals to "Mr. Hillary wasn't dignified enough." )
Quote
No. Because a calm, measured approach demonstrates that one is in control of
the situation.

Hillary Clinton should have waited patiently during Trump's outbursts, and quietly
given her rebuttals after he had talked himself out.

I have no idea why he didn't just say "women should know their place" as it gives the same message with less typing.

Quote
You mean like Trump did to her when it was her time to speak? Who are you trying to fool? You get the horse laugh for this one.

Quote
You know that you're coming across as endorsing Trump's belligerence and criticizing her not just letting him abuse her, don't you? It goes with your she didn't know a woman's place comment. I think you probably should give it up while you're only way behind rather than back in the Ice Age.

Pretty much this. Some people see Trump flailing and acting like a moron and think "but Hillary didn't just let him walk over herself and therefore they are both bad. Which means that they are EQUALLY bad."

False equivalency.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 29, 2016, 08:32:52 am
Balance fallacy in a nutshell with added sexism, see-he belched, bulshitted and bloviated and she said assertive stuff. JUST. AS. BAD!!!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 29, 2016, 11:13:18 am
The Media is desperatly trying to make this a horse race but how can you when one of your horses can't even be bothered to show up at the starting box?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on September 29, 2016, 02:58:50 pm
The Media is desperatly trying to make this a horse race but how can you when one of your horses can't even be bothered to show up at the starting box?

Donald Trump did attend the debate, though...

I have to wonder how much Clinton practiced her "That's just not accurate" line. You know it can't have been easy to give a measured response to the kind of horseshit she was asked to rebut.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 29, 2016, 11:16:54 pm
Arlie Hochschild, a professor emerita of sociology wanted to learn to understand the poor white Republicans who vote against their own interests and support Trump. These are the people who Clinton meant when she said half of the Trump voters are a basket deplorables. To accomplish this she went to Louisiana and spent time with them and she completely disagrees with the people who say these Republicans are a lost cause. They are not a consciously racist bunch, they just don't understand what structural racism is and are embittered by things like affirmative action and their useless state government. Their emotional reactions override their logical thinking and as a result they see Trump as their savior despite also logically understanding how untrustworthy and flawed a person he is.

Since Hochschild was able to have a genuinely constructive dialogue with the people she met and she found they had a surprisingly similar understanding with her about many dynamics that are behind their problems she believes that the liberal movement can find a lot of common ground with them. The question of racism is definitely something about which the sides need to have a proper dialogue before this can be accomplished since it sounds to me it's in the center of the mutual dislike. It's something that I have noticed raises strong emotions even here in Finland and in the Deep South it must be an incredibly difficult issue. Her stance on more mutual understanding on the discussion around racism is very close to what I my thoughts about the issue are. In this sense I have a similar attitude towards racism as I have towards for example terrorism: the phenomenon and specific actions must be condemned but the main attention must be in the societal issues that cause people to be vulnerable to distorted and dangerous ways of thinking.

Enough about my rambling, she can tell more about her thoughts and experiences herself. Since embedding the video doesn't allow linking to a specific time in it (as far as I know) I'll give also a link to the video in Youtube (https://youtu.be/e73Z1iHw7CA?t=27m00s). If you watch the embedded video the interview starts around 27:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e73Z1iHw7CA

Edit: I forgot one of key points Hochschild makes. In her experience the dismissive attitude liberals have towards these Republicans is also a big influence in their bitterness and persecution complex. This is one of the main motivations why she wants to promote actual understanding and dialogue and why she disliked Clinton's comment about a basket of deplorables. It's possible to completely disagree with a person's viewpoint while understanding and giving a basic respect to the experiences, thinking and emotions behind it.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 30, 2016, 07:38:17 am
Someone actually going out and asking voters what they think?  Actually getting to understand them instead of meaningless pandering, and that's best-case?  Well, fuck me, ain't that somethin?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 30, 2016, 11:41:58 am
So Trump is threatening to bring up Monica Lewinsky in the next debates. How he thinks this is going to help him in anyway is beyond me being that Hillary's husband's infidelity is not her fault at all.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 30, 2016, 11:43:02 am
He's actually gonna show up at another debate after the trouncing he just had?

Ironbite-brave of him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 30, 2016, 11:48:11 am
He's most likely going to attack Hillary's feminist credentials by accusing her of demeaning and insulting Lewinsky to defend her husband.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on September 30, 2016, 11:54:29 am
I can see that backfiring on him, being that he has a much worse reputation with women.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on September 30, 2016, 12:07:53 pm
I think the calculation is that they hope it harms Hillary more by weakening her in an issue she has a huge advantage over him at the moment and since his supporters don't care about his misogynism they hope all the damage that could be done with that issue has already been done. He can't really raise people's opinion  about him when it comes to this issue but he can try to draw Hillary down closer to his level.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on September 30, 2016, 02:08:14 pm
The thing he should really be hammering her on is trade. She supported NAFTA; the rust belt hates NAFTA. She claims to oppose TPP (after calling it the "gold standard"--he was right on that one), but tons of people oppose it and don't believe that she does.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on September 30, 2016, 02:35:09 pm
Nah better to hammer on someone who isn't even running in the election when his opponent can laugh at his fool ass and school him hard.

Ironbite-he really is trying to throw the election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 02, 2016, 06:30:08 pm
Oh fuck me. Now this crap is spreading here. The youth organization of the True Finns party posted this to their FB page with a link to their web store where you can buy this.

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14446056_1352243728119295_2069435002675033833_n.jpg?oh=a5ed8b58568c160116cc3c132d2b8f78&oe=58656B2A)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on October 02, 2016, 07:01:20 pm
True Finns? Then come up with your own campaign slogan!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on October 02, 2016, 07:13:03 pm
Heh, they didn't even translate it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 02, 2016, 10:35:54 pm
True Finns are the most unoriginal Nazis ever. They sound like the type that just copy whatever the other fascist kiddies are doing.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 03, 2016, 12:01:21 am
They didn't want to translate it because if they did they would have to choose whether they want to use the "Suur-Suomi" name that the pro-German Finns used during WW2 when fantasizing about Finland and Germany taking over USSR together, or if they'd use some other translation that does not remind people of Nazis.

...Seeing as their comment that came with the picture made another reference to it they are definitely going for the Nazi implications while trying to make it look like a coincidence.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 03, 2016, 09:28:44 am
So anyone excited about the VP debate between that one guy from Virginia, and that other old guy from Indiana?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 03, 2016, 11:43:48 am
True Finns are the most unoriginal Nazis ever. They sound like the type that just copy whatever the other fascist kiddies are doing.

One of my buddies has a habit of noting that the Finns are a living proof that "the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi." ...Because before them the last time that Nazis tried to get into Finnish politics they were lead by this guy:
(http://mesikammen.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/anagrammipekka.jpg)

Pekka Siitoin was not afraid to call himself a Nazi (or a Devil worshiper or a sadist for that matter.) and didn't try to use weasel words and afterwards claim that he was simply drunk when he said that something horribly racists or mean. He was a horrible human being who supported genocide but at least he was honest about it.

And when I said he was a Devil worshiper I wasn't kidding, though he did that in his own special style as well:
(http://mobile-lehti.fi/site/kuvat/2377.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 03, 2016, 02:04:18 pm
Siitoin also said that he knew he would be the president of the United States in his next life. He became a kind of cult character that most people treated - and still do after his death - more like an entertaining village idiot than a serious political figure. A while ago Varusteleka, an army surplus store known for their dark, anarchistic un-PC humor pulled a swastika reflector from their catalogue stating that people are taking these current Nazis so seriously that joking about them isn't funny anymore unlike when Siitoin was their self-appointed Reichsführer. Some people with a similar but even darker sense of humor are also making an indie FPS with Siitoin as the main character returning from his grave to kill these all-tolerating lefties.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 03, 2016, 07:54:08 pm
http://www.snopes.com/2016/10/03/rape-lawsuit-refiled-against-donald-trump/

I'm surprised this seems to be getting little attention. 
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on October 03, 2016, 10:23:44 pm
http://www.snopes.com/2016/10/03/rape-lawsuit-refiled-against-donald-trump/

I'm surprised this seems to be getting little attention.

Do we have anything other than her say-so that any of that actually happened? Anything at all? Because I wouldn't be surprised at completely and totally baseless accusations not making the news.


Edit: She does have a witness to corroborate her story. (http://www.snopes.com/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit/) And it's apparently been rejected for technicalities. Now I have to ask. Why hasn't it been on the news?! This is plausible at this point!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 04, 2016, 06:31:56 am
...Those"Make Finland great again" hats were made in Russia.

*facepalm*
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 04, 2016, 11:55:57 pm
They really are going full Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 06, 2016, 12:11:07 am
True Finns Leader: Witness my new, totally original hairstyle! Its hair. It really is---

-stiff gust of wind blows toupee off of his head-

True Finns Leader: Come back here, headgear of fascism! I need you!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on October 06, 2016, 01:44:53 am
I get the impression that ever since Germany was bent over and fucked raw by both the Allies and the Soviets, Finnish "nationalists" never quite got the hang of the whole not being a foreign puppet thing.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 06, 2016, 02:17:58 am
Now the Finns found a new agenda: Fighting against windmills ...literally.

One of their prominent members who is a convicted rapist is now complaining about windmills and demanding that they are torn down because "they make the bats explode."

He admits that he only recently discovered this thread on the internet and according to him "wasn't at first certain if it was just pseudoscience or if he was an asshole for believing in it." (For the record, he is an asshole but there are other reasons for that not just this one.)

In other words: They are trying to get votes from people who believe in nonsense like that the infra sounds from windmills harm people. They are about to lose a lot of voters because they have broken almost all of their promises, haven't accomplished anything beneficial while being in the government and currently the only voting block that they have a firm grip on are the racists.

Just like they didn't care for women's rights until they realized that they could talk shit about Muslims while claiming to defend women they now try to look like they are defending animals while actually opposing renewable energy sources and supporting pseudoscience...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 06, 2016, 07:24:24 am
Just a heads up: I've seen people take a short clip of Bill Clinton's speech in Flint out of context so it sounds like he is ranting against Obamacare and is harming Hillary's campaign. Yes, he says the Obamacare system is "the craziest thing in the world" but in the full context he speaks about a particular flaw and Hillary's proposal to fix it: offer the people who fall in between the cracks in Obamacare a chance to buy in to Medicare with an affordable rate. A completely sane and actually a liberal position, even a potential step towards a single payer system. I'd rather people concentrate on the real problems with Hillary's politics and pressure her on them instead of inventing scandals.

The context with the relevant part (https://youtu.be/Rva2kLSBAWY?t=25m40s) starting at 25:40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rva2kLSBAWY

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 06, 2016, 07:48:58 am
Terhi Kiemunki, an assistant to a Finnish Parliament member wrote a racist tirade on her blog and then made a crime report about it. Her intention was to show that the "tolerant" people are harassing others and interfering with their freedom of speech. She would prove this by having the police admit that there is nothing illegal in her blog post and therefore proving that insulting Muslims and threatening them is perfectly acceptable in Finland.

...Instead the police and the prosecutor have declared that Kiemunki has committed the crime "inciting violence against a group of people" and she will now end up in court for this. (The actual post is no longer on the original site anyway because it was a violation against the rules of the site. There may be copies elsewhere though.)

The work of the police would be a lot easier if all criminals would do the same.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 06, 2016, 10:09:59 am
Meanwhile Donald is threatening to sue the Clinton campaign for running ads of him speaking.

Ironbite-I just giggle.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 07, 2016, 03:54:00 am
Going back to the "Exploding bats" thingy... A minister from the Finnish government had to go live on TV today to explain that no, exploding bats are not a threat to Finnish electricity production...

Several other news sources have also had to explain that bats don't literally explode because of a wind turbine. What may happen is that if they get REALLY close to the turbine their lungs may slightly explode due to the difference in air pressure. BUT if they get that close then they are going to get hit by the blades anyway. So this is like saying that if you get hit in the chest with a .50cal machine gun then the hydrostatic shock may rupture some of your blood vessels. ...Also you are going to have a 12.7mm hole in your chest and the organ damage and blood loss from that will likely kill you so getting some bruises is a minor issue at that point.

EDIT:

http://qz.com/803659/election-2016-in-retrospect-tim-kaines-debate-was-a-masterful-lesson-in-campaign-strategy/?utm_source=qzfb

Quote
Let’s be clear: Pence won the debate. While vapid and wholly without any policy details, he was calm and presidential to Kaine’s frenetic and unpolished demeanor. He simply looked the part. But his victory is pyrrhic, because Kaine’s strategy and execution will win the election.

Kaine’s goal was simple: get as many of Donald Trump’s quotes on the record as possible, and force Pence to either defend them, or abandon them. Either situation here was a win/win. The end plan was to use these scripted quotes in television ads that will be seen by a far larger audience than the debate itself, from now until the end of the election.

Not many people watched the debate (people said that it would be about as exciting as watching paint dry) but they can now use clips from the debate and Trump campaign in attack ads against Trump and Pence.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 08, 2016, 01:23:10 am
So now Hillary has yet another October surprise, a recording of Trump boasting about his ability to get away with sexual assault and creeping on married women.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-recorded-having-extremely-lewd-conversation-about-women-in-2005/2016/10/07/3b9ce776-8cb4-11e6-bf8a-3d26847eeed4_story.html

Cue another round of republican leaders trying to condemn Trump as the scum of the earth while still endorsing him for president.  Although to be fair some members of the party who do have something of a moral center are once again calling for him to drop out of the race.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 08, 2016, 03:50:21 am
For some reason NOW it seems that Trump went too far and he is losing support. Why this particular scandal? Why wasn't his earlier stuff enough or was THE WORST thing that Trump said?

But what are the Republicans going to do? Stay with Trump and lose the elections?

If they disqualify Trump and somehow pick a new candidate they might win back a lot of votes now that Clinton campaign is considered as bad as or at least almost as bad as Trump (I know that she isn't anywhere near that bad but all the false equivalency from the media sure makes it look like that) so whoever they pick could actually have a decent chance.

I mean, certainly die hard Trump fans would be outraged at the treachery but the core Republican voters would be relieved and many of the independents and Bernie fans could side with Jeb Bush or whoever they pick. (Of course they would pick "Bush mk3.")

Also, is there anything that the Trump posse won't stoop down to?
http://europe.newsweek.com/epileptogenic-pepe-video-507417?rm=eu

Journalist writes a piece where they say bad (and presumably accurate) stuff about Trump. Trump fans know that this reporter suffers from epilepsy so they start sending him gifs that would trigger epilepsy. ...Luckily the worst thing that happened was that he dropped his tablet when opening up one of them by mistake.

I already wrote about this elsewhere but they are using the exact same tactic as the Neo-Nazis in Finland are using. Whenever someone speaks against them (or their messiah) you retaliate. Words, fists, electronic warfare doesn't matter how. The point is that they make sure that people are afraid to oppose them. And now I've even seen victim blaming because apparently writing mean stuff about someone makes it acceptable for people to try to physically harm you:

https://twitter.com/ccfaulk40/status/784473668101570561

(For bonus points: Any negative article on Trump is hate speech...)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 08, 2016, 05:17:59 am
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/927

You know all those speeches Hillary Clinton said she'd release when everyone in the race had released theirs? (And then didn't when either a) her only opponent in the race she was actually running in--the Democratic nomination--hadn't given any, or b) once Trump was the only candidate on the Republican side and as far as anyone knows, he's never given any speeches to Wall Street either.)

Well, those aren't the full speeches, but they're some damn bad excerpts.

Quote
Hillary Clinton: “I'm Kind Of Far Removed” From The Struggles Of The Middle Class “Because The Life I've Lived And The Economic, You Know, Fortunes That My Husband And I Now Enjoy.” *“And I am not taking a position on any policy, but I do think there is a growing sense of anxiety and even anger in the country over the feeling that the game is rigged. And I never had that feeling when I was growing up. Never. I mean, were there really rich people, of course there were. My father loved to complain about big business and big government, but we had a solid middle class upbringing. We had good public schools. We had accessible health care. We had our little, you know, one-family house that, you know, he saved up his money, didn't believe in mortgages. So I lived that. And now, obviously, I'm kind of far removed because the life I've lived and the economic, you know, fortunes that my husband and I now enjoy, but I haven't forgotten it.”

Quote
Clinton: “But If Everybody's Watching, You Know, All Of The Back Room Discussions And The Deals, You Know, Then People Get A Little Nervous, To Say The Least. So, You Need Both A Public And A Private Position.”* CLINTON: You just have to sort of figure out how to -- getting back to that word, "balance" -- how to balance the public and the private efforts that are necessary to be successful, politically, and that's not just a comment about today. That, I think, has probably been true for all of our history, and if you saw the Spielberg movie, Lincoln, and how he was maneuvering and working to get the 13th Amendment passed, and he called one of my favorite predecessors, Secretary Seward, who had been the governor and senator from New York, ran against Lincoln for president, and he told Seward, I need your help to get this done. And Seward called some of his lobbyist friends who knew how to make a deal, and they just kept going at it. I mean, politics is like sausage being made. It is unsavory, and it always has been that way, but we usually end up where we need to be. But if everybody's watching, you know, all of the back room discussions and the deals, you know, then people get a little nervous, to say the least. So, you need both a public and a private position. And finally, I think -- I believe in evidence-based decision making. I want to know what the facts are. I mean, it's like when you guys go into some kind of a deal, you know, are you going to do that development or not, are you going to do that renovation or not, you know, you look at the numbers. You try to figure out what's going to work and what's not going to work."

Quote
Hillary Clinton Said There Was “A Bias Against People Who Have Led Successful And/Or Complicated Lives,” Citing The Need To Divese Of Assets, Positions, And Stocks.* “SECRETARY CLINTON: Yeah. Well, you know what Bob Rubin said about that. He said, you know, when he came to Washington, he had a fortune. And when he left Washington, he had a small -- MR. BLANKFEIN: That’s how you have a small fortune, is you go to Washington. SECRETARY CLINTON: You go to Washington. Right. But, you know, part of the problem with the political situation, too, is that there is such a bias against people who have led successful and/or complicated lives. You know, the divestment of assets, the stripping of all kinds of positions, the sale of stocks. It just becomes very onerous and unnecessary.”

If anyone is wondering why Johnson and Stein are hitting the poll numbers they are, wonder no more.

EDIT: As for any lingering doubts that she actually opposes the TPP and it's not just a position she's adopted because both Sanders and Trump espouse it and it's popular:

Quote
Hillary Clinton Said We Have To Have A Concerted Plan To Increase Trade; We Have To Resist Protectionism And Other Kinds Of Barriers To Trade. *“Secondly, I think we have to have a concerted plan to increase trade already under the current circumstances, you know, that Inter-American Development Bank figure is pretty surprising. There is so much more we can do, there is a lot of low hanging fruit but businesses on both sides have to make it a priority and it's not for governments to do but governments can either make it easy or make it hard and we have to resist, protectionism, other kinds of barriers to market access and to trade and I would like to see this get much more attention and be not just a policy for a year under president X or president Y but a consistent one.”
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 08, 2016, 04:08:27 pm
And yet because of the Trump Tapes, nobody gives a shit about Hillary's speeches.

Ironbite-this does nothing to her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 08, 2016, 04:23:36 pm
Dpareja, would you rather we vote for Der Fuhrer?

What are you trying to say with this? "Down with the system - vote third party?"

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 08, 2016, 04:35:02 pm
And yet because of the Trump Tapes, nobody gives a shit about Hillary's speeches.

Ironbite-this does nothing to her.

...As long as Trump is in the game.

She is still the better choice out of the two. Now if Trump forfeits and GOP is allowed to pick a new candidate (actually, I have no idea if that's even possible) then all bets are off.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 08, 2016, 04:51:55 pm
I checked a few weeks ago and in many (most? all?) states the ballot nomination deadline has passed. I thought it means that the parties can't change their nominations anymore but since people started speculating about who would replace Hillary if she really was ill that might not be the case. I'm no expert on the issue so I can't say for sure if the page I read omitted some details of the rules that allow the parties to make last minute changes.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 08, 2016, 05:14:42 pm
The only way for a new candidate to be chosen is if Trump dies or steps aside.

Ironbite-he ain't doing neither.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 08, 2016, 05:36:26 pm
I believe that the parties can nominate a replacement if their candidate steps aside or dies. (For instance, the Democratic Party has their national executive meet to choose the replacement.)

As for why I'm pointing out Clinton's flaws, it's not because I think she's just as bad as Trump. Trump is far, far worse. It's that Clinton is, however much better she may be than Trump, a very bad, very flawed candidate, and people need to be aware of those flaws so that they know that while they might vote for her*, they need to be prepared to force her through political pressure to keep to the promises in the Democratic platform, and not what she's said in private that contradicts those pledges.

*I'm not sure if I could in good conscience vote for Clinton.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheUnknown on October 09, 2016, 12:58:31 am
So, I'm following an anon comm, and there was an interesting tidbit about one of the leaked emails.  In the email where "Hillary" rants about different races and immigrants, some of the anons pointed out how weird and Eurocentric some of the language was, with references to Roma and "welfare-pampered Dutch gypsies".

One anon had this to say:

Quote
I went ahead and tracked down the first quote in the Wikileaks file, since that seemed...unusually egregiously bad for Hillary. It's from an email sent to Podesta's Georgetown.edu email address from someone with the email "orca100@upcmail.nl", one of a series of 3 emails all sent on the same day in February that are all rambling racist screeds about the multiculturalism "crisis" in Germany. Hillary does not appear to have been cc'ed on these emails and is not mentioned anywhere by name in them that I could find.

So, yeah.

(thread link (http://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/220730.html?thread=1224262970#cmt1224262970))
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 09, 2016, 02:48:14 am
From what I've read on vox, the GOP can't take Trump off the ballot, but they might be able to force him to step down on day 1 and let Pence be president and announce they will do so before the election.  I doubt it will happen though.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 09, 2016, 03:54:43 am
It's too late for them to change the candidate. Apparently they could technically declare that Trump is no longer their candidate (and lose a lot of voters) but the new candidate would not officially be able to be elected because it's too late to add him/her as a candidate. If they do it right now it might remove Trump from the position and mean that by the time Hillary is sworn in the records say that her rival wasn't officially Trump but some other Republican. Some magazine claimed that it would be an important ceremonial gesture of the GOP disapproval of Trump but in my opinion it wold just be a worthless PR trick.

Meanwhile Trump is doing what he always does. He is declaring that he will not give up and has basically decided to negate his earlier not-apology completely: http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37597756?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Also, the Trump rape-case is going forwards and Trump may end up in court after all: http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/federal-judge-orders-hearing-in-donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-case/
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 09, 2016, 08:22:04 am
Man this is the ugliest presidential race I've ever seen. Tonight's debate is going to be awkward.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 09, 2016, 09:17:26 am
Townhall, not a real debate. It depends on what kind of audience questions the organizers let through their screening. In theory, they can get cowardly and not confront Trump too harshly but I think and hope there is more pressure to confront him than there is to appear neutral.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 09, 2016, 02:11:13 pm
Townhall, not a real debate. It depends on what kind of audience questions the organizers let through their screening. In theory, they can get cowardly and not confront Trump too harshly but I think and hope there is more pressure to confront him than there is to appear neutral.

It's a cross between a town hall and a moderator-run debate. It's a debate, but, as in a town hall, about half the questions will be asked by audience members rather than the moderators. They did the same in 2012; as I recall, it was that debate where Obama delivered his "We also have fewer horses and bayonets" line.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 09, 2016, 02:18:09 pm
Okay. People have discussed this as a town hall so I wasn't aware there would be actual debate involved. Good. It will be entertaining to see how Trump will squirm.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 09, 2016, 02:48:15 pm
The meme that came from that one quote was so confusing. Like I was playing MWO beta and suddenly everyone on the forums was spreading stuff like this with no explanation:
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/67/6738b5da08cf0e3752784f2d15a0efd47633104eaa64a32bbcd99872615f3843.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 09, 2016, 10:45:23 pm
Just as I thought that was a very ugly debate.
A lot of mudslinging. Unfortunately Trump will probably be seen as doing better this round. Well enough to gain all the ground he lost against Clinton in the past couple of weeks probably not.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 10, 2016, 12:13:02 am
it seems au contraire that a consensus is Trump lost this one bad - he looked deranged, at times like he was having a stroke...

and on top of that, its been said Mike Pence wants off the ticket.

Abandoned by his Himmler...that is nice...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 10, 2016, 12:24:44 am
Didn't watch the debate, based on what this summary says I can't understand why people would think that Trump won: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/us/politics/presidential-debate.html

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 10, 2016, 01:03:29 am
I would say he was more composed in the second half. But yeah he came off pretty crazy right off the bat. Hillary has been respectful and calm during these debates. And what's with the sniffling trump? Is he doing a bump of cocaine before he goes out to the debate floor?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 10, 2016, 07:55:46 am
When it comes to attacks on Hillary Trump can be specific but when he comes to his own policies he is vague. He also uses very vague language when discussing general problems he claims he wants to fix. This hides his general ignorance and allows people who want to believe in him to interpret his language the way they want.

Someone who is already critical towards him pays more attention to how he dodges any specific questions which the moderators did throw at him occasionally and even tried to pressure him to give a direct answer at least once.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 10, 2016, 08:08:12 am
He's always attacked his opponents for their faults or perceived or sometimes made up shortcomings. But he usually has little to say on what he actually wants to do for the country other than adding words like tremendous, really and bigly to make it sound important, but it's really just bullshit. Like last night when he called obamacare a disaster, and that he's going to repeal it and put something in that sounds exactly the same as obamacare, but has no plans or solid ideas on what he's going to do.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 11, 2016, 12:59:48 am
Unearthed by Wikileaks: The Hillary Clinton campaign's strategy on how to deal with the Republican field.

It's the attachment to this e-mail: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/1120

Quote
To: The Democratic National Committee

Re: 2016 GOP presidential candidates

Date: April 7, 2015

Friends,

This memo is intended to outline the strategy and goals a potential Hillary Clinton presidential campaign would have regarding the 2016 Republican presidential field. Clearly most of what is contained in this memo is work the DNC is already doing. This exercise is intended to put those ideas to paper.

Our Goals & Strategy

Our hope is that the goal of a potential HRC campaign and the DNC would be one-­‐in-­‐the-­‐same: to make whomever the Republicans nominate unpalatable to a majority of the electorate. We have outlined three strategies to obtain our goal:

1) Force all Republican candidates to lock themselves into extreme conservative positions that will hurt them in a general election;

2) Undermine any credibility/trust Republican presidential candidates have to make inroads to our coalition or independents;

3) Muddy the waters on any potential attack lodged against HRC.

Operationalizing the Strategy

Pied Piper Candidates

There are two ways to approach the strategies mentioned above. The first is to use the field as a whole to inflict damage on itself similar to what happened to Mitt Romney in 2012. The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the more extreme candidates, but make them more “Pied Piper” candidates who actually represent the mainstream of the Republican Party. Pied Piper candidates include, but aren’t limited to:

• Ted Cruz
• Donald Trump
• Ben Carson

We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to them seriously.

Undermining Their Message & Credibility

Most of the more-­‐established candidates will want to focus on building a winning general election coalition. The “Pied Pipers” of the field will mitigate this to a degree, but more will need to be done on certain candidates to undermine their credibility among our coalition (communities of color, millennials, women) and independent voters. In this regard, the goal here would be to show that they are just the same as every other GOP candidate: extremely conservative on these issues. Some examples:

• Jeb Bush
o What to undermine: the notion he is a “moderate” or concerned about regular Americans; perceived inroads with the Latino population.

• Marco Rubio
o What to undermine: the idea he has “fresh” ideas; his perceived appeal to Latinos

• Scott Walker
o What to undermine: the idea he can rally working-­‐ and middle class Americans.

• Rand Paul
o What to undermine: the idea he is a “different” kind of Republican; his stance on the military and his appeal to millennials and communities of color.

• Bobby Jindal
o What to undermine: his “new” ideas

• Chris Christie
o What to undermine: he tells it like it is.

Muddying the Waters

As we all know, the right wing attack machine has been building its opposition research on Hillary Clinton for decades. The RNC et al has been telegraphing they are ready to attack and do so with reckless abandon. One way we can respond to these attacks is to show how they boomerang onto the Republican presidential field. The goal, then, is to have a dossier on the GOP candidates on the likely attacks HRC will face. Based on attacks that have already occurred, the areas they are highlighting:

• Transparency & disclosure
• Donors & associations
• Management & business dealings

In this regard, any information on scandals or ethical lapses on the GOP candidates would serve well. We won’t be picky.

Again, we think our goals mirror those of the DNC. We look forward to continuing the conversation.

And before anyone says, "So you want us to vote for Trump, then," I don't want you to vote for Trump. I just think it's important that as many people as possible know as much as possible about all the candidates before they do vote.

EDIT: Also, some stuff about how the Clinton campaign plays the media: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3125945-Story-Memo.html
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 11, 2016, 02:50:44 am
So much for that plan... They didn't even consider the chance of Trump winning the nomination.

Logically his extremism should have meant that this plan would be easy to implement but instead it just made him stronger.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 11, 2016, 02:52:04 am
So much for that plan... They didn't even consider the chance of Trump winning the nomination.

And Cruz was second, and Carson was the only person ever to poll above Trump.

Cruz, Trump, and Carson are not "Pied Pipers". They are the Republican Party.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 11, 2016, 11:07:25 am
Eh, none of that stuff is shocking, I'm pretty sure the republican candidates do their own versions of campaign strategy as well.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on October 11, 2016, 11:43:17 am
Yeah, all I saw was basically Political Strategy 101.  Nothing at all scandalous, just the machine working as it always has.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 11, 2016, 03:25:35 pm
MY GOD THE MACHINE WORKING LIKE IT DOES!  THE HORROR!

Ironbite-*goes to vote Trump*
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 11, 2016, 04:16:03 pm
"War is Boring" is a site that I've been reading for a while now. Most of their articles relate to war and military related things but lately they've taken to commenting about the elections in USA as well. Mainly because they've been freaked out that Trump is still a thing. As one might guess from their genre their fans include plenty of right wing folks and even Trump fans. They have in fact had to start banning the loudest Trump fans who go crazy whenever something negative is said about Trump. For their latest story they just turned off the comments in FB since they knew it would be a disaster.

https://warisboring.com/yes-trump-is-a-fascist-heres-the-checklist-1920ad4d8163#.q2vlot9sl

They do make a good point though, Trump really is a fascist even if he doesn't know it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 11, 2016, 04:17:03 pm
Yeah, all I saw was basically Political Strategy 101.  Nothing at all scandalous, just the machine working as it always has.

Not saying it's shocking, but the fact that this is how "it always has" worked is problematic. The media shouldn't be in bed with politicians.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 11, 2016, 04:33:48 pm
How bad do you have to be to make Glenn Beck support Hillary Clinton? http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/11/politics/glenn-beck-hillary-clinton-moral-ethical-choice/index.html

Trump found a way.

EDIT: And in similar news, a woman who says that she has repeatedly defended GOP against claims of sexism within the party has now got fed up with their defense of Trump: http://imgur.com/gallery/24GP9
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 11, 2016, 05:11:37 pm
The Conservative Heresy of Glenn Beck is a really fascinating case study in purist mentality - Glenn has half committed to saying even crazier things as if to dull the pain of Ted Cruz betraying him / the realization a sociopathic religious demagogue duped him, and realizing that he has some blame in all of this due to peddling ridiculous conspiracies and rhetoric.

The Blaze is dying - Breitbart has forced it to the side and taken all its usual viewership, offering the radicalizing puerile drivel that Beck is starting to not provide so readily any more.

He's off national TV and on the radio, which is not as big as it used to be.

He's shorthand for insanity and delusion and I suspect he knows this.

I think we're seeing a once prominent figure of the right at his lowest point.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 11, 2016, 11:40:43 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5205

That's current DNC chairperson, former CNN contributor Donna Brazile tipping off the Clinton campaign about a question Clinton was due to be asked in an upcoming town hall.

Subject: Re: From time to time I get the questions in advance

Quote
Hi. Yes, it is one she gets asked about. Not everyone likes her answer but can share it.

Betsaida - can you send her answer on death penalty?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 12, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Donna Brazile <donna@brazileassociates.com> wrote:

Here's one that worries me about HRC.

DEATH PENALTY

19 states and the District of Columbia have banned the death penalty. 31 states, including Ohio, still have the death penalty. According to the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, since 1973, 156 people have been on death row and later set free. Since 1976, 1,414 people have been executed in the U.S. That’s 11% of Americans who were sentenced to die, but later exonerated and freed. Should Ohio and the 30 other states join the current list and abolish the death penalty?

Sent from Donna's I Pad. Follow me on twitter @donnabrazile
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 11, 2016, 11:58:07 pm
Double-post because unrelated topic:

http://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635

Donald Trump was quoting Russian propaganda... when the only news agency that had published it was Sputnik, the Russian government's news agency (which is their propaganda outlet).

EDIT:

Protest sign seen in a pro-Trump protest outside an RNC office:

(https://i.redditmedia.com/UGuXz3QcpAXmaFC4z8eHNwV3ZlfA1w2xh6nu6DnAFoE.jpg?w=640&s=dc0fd9ed258ade3b2c609942b6072753)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 02:45:31 am
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3609

Here's another one.

If you endorsed Bernie Sanders, you're cut off.

This was sent to Tulsi Gabbard after she resigned from the DNC and endorsed Sanders. Note that it was sent on February 29; that is to say, the day before Super Tuesday.

Quote
Representative Gabbard,

We were very disappointed to hear that you would resign your position with the DNC so you could endorse Bernie Sanders, a man who has never been a Democrat before. When we met over dinner a couple of years ago I was so impressed by your intellect, your passion, and commitment to getting things done on behalf of the American people. For you to endorse a man who has spent almost 40 years in public office with very few accomplishments, doesn't fall in line with what we previously thought of you. Hillary Clinton will be our party's nominee and you standing on ceremony to support the sinking Bernie Sanders ship is disrespectful to Hillary Clinton. A woman who has spent the vast majority of her life in public service and working on behalf of women, families, and the underserved.

You have called both myself and Michael Kives before about helping your campaign raise money, we no longer trust your judgement so will not be raising money for your campaign.

Darnell Strom & Michael Kives

Emphases mine. First emphasis, recall that Sanders was called the "Amendment King" (then Alan Grayson was, and they hate him, too). Second emphasis, this is Before Super Tuesday. Only FOUR primaries or caucuses have been held at this point.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 12, 2016, 03:03:26 am
I don't pay much attention to these wikileaks posts - Assange is busy off camera eating out of Putin's hand.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 03:36:30 am
I don't pay much attention to these wikileaks posts - Assange is busy off camera eating out of Putin's hand.

Doesn't make their contents any less true or damning.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 12, 2016, 03:40:58 am
I don't pay much attention to these wikileaks posts - Assange is busy off camera eating out of Putin's hand.

Doesn't make their contents any less true or damning.


Actually it does. The link that you posted about how Trump is using leaks that were published on the Russian news also has proof that the emails had been edited to look more damning. They got caught editing one email, can you trust them not to have edited more of them?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on October 12, 2016, 03:42:28 am
(https://i.redditmedia.com/UGuXz3QcpAXmaFC4z8eHNwV3ZlfA1w2xh6nu6DnAFoE.jpg?w=640&s=dc0fd9ed258ade3b2c609942b6072753)
He says after replacing the middle three letters with asterisks. After all, we can't have anyone's delicate sensibilities offended, now can we?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 04:14:58 am
I don't pay much attention to these wikileaks posts - Assange is busy off camera eating out of Putin's hand.

Doesn't make their contents any less true or damning.


Actually it does. The link that you posted about how Trump is using leaks that were published on the Russian news also has proof that the emails had been edited to look more damning. They got caught editing one email, can you trust them not to have edited more of them?

This e-mail? https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/2038

They extracted bits from it for a propaganda piece, but didn't edit the e-mail itself as it appears in Wikileaks, as far as I can tell. For instance, the quote that Eichenwald gives as the "real summation" of his article appears in that e-mail.

I'm not seeing where Eichenwald has proof that an e-mail in the Podesta leak was edited for its appearance on Wikileaks.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on October 12, 2016, 04:38:11 am
Sorry what is in that email other than a guy forwarding an article about himself?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on October 12, 2016, 08:07:36 am
Yeah, all I saw was basically Political Strategy 101.  Nothing at all scandalous, just the machine working as it always has.

Not saying it's shocking, but the fact that this is how "it always has" worked is problematic. The media shouldn't be in bed with politicians.


Politics and elections are basically a war without the guns.  In a war, you gain whatever advantage you can over your enemy.  Sides, where the hell do you think all that campaign money goes?  It sure as hell ain't going to charity.  Its sleazy and scummy as fuck, don't get me wrong, but that's what happens when you let something as fragile as a democracy have any kind of serious money in it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 12, 2016, 10:02:19 am
We could have a very long thread just by listing the people and organizations that oppose Trump... And now you can add an important UN official on the list: http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37628345?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Too bad that the anti-UN folks in USA will now just cling tighter onto Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 01:51:25 pm
Yeah, all I saw was basically Political Strategy 101.  Nothing at all scandalous, just the machine working as it always has.

Not saying it's shocking, but the fact that this is how "it always has" worked is problematic. The media shouldn't be in bed with politicians.


Politics and elections are basically a war without the guns.  In a war, you gain whatever advantage you can over your enemy.  Sides, where the hell do you think all that campaign money goes?  It sure as hell ain't going to charity.  Its sleazy and scummy as fuck, don't get me wrong, but that's what happens when you let something as fragile as a democracy have any kind of serious money in it.

Campaign finance reform, in particular getting a constitutional amendment to overturn Buckley v Valeo (on which decisions like Citizens United and SpeechNow were partly based), would be a huge game-changer.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 12, 2016, 03:03:57 pm
It would but you have to figure out someway to get the people who benefit from it the most to vote against it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 03:34:16 pm
It would but you have to figure out someway to get the people who benefit from it the most to vote against it.

Quote
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress...

Emphasis mine. That's how you do it. Bypass Congress, get state legislatures to petition for a constitutional convention on the issue, which will force Congress to call it, then report out an appropriate amendment and get it ratified by the states. No need to get Congress to do anything other than what the Constitution mandates they do (call the convention).

Plenty of state legislators--even Republicans--don't want big money in their elections. Some Republicans will even quote Barry Goldwater (from "The Conscience of a Conservative"):

Quote
In order to achieve the widest possible distribution of political power, financial contributions to political campaigns should be made by individuals and individuals alone. I see no reason for labor unions--or corporations--to participate in politics. Both were created for economic purposes and their activities should be restricted accordingly.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 12, 2016, 04:58:15 pm
(http://67.media.tumblr.com/a37237eb96ef0de4c1350b64f03f7bb8/tumblr_obbcp6gCf71rik9tio1_1280.jpg)

3/4 US presidential candidates oppose vaccination...

But sure, let's talk about how Hillary is also corrupt and people should vote for the third party candidates instead.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 05:02:57 pm
1. Hillary is also corrupt, and it should be discussed so that people know what they'll be getting.

2. I never said people should vote for third-party candidates.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 12, 2016, 05:08:56 pm
Not you specifically. People in general.

I keep hearing people urging others to vote for third party candidates everywhere.

If there even was a decent third party candidate I might at least understand their childish optimism, but no. Any sensible candidate apart from Clinton has already dropped out.

I'm sure that some of the 16 (I think?) Republicans would have been a decent choice for a president but now the choices for USA are literally Trump and chaos or Hillary and 4 more years of business as usual.

Vote for congress, vote for governors and what not. Try to make a change for the better on all levels of government but just because you can no longer pick a perfect candidate don't go for the worst possible one.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 12, 2016, 05:15:21 pm
3/4 US presidential candidates oppose vaccination...

But sure, let's talk about how Hillary is also corrupt and people should vote for the third party candidates instead.

For the record, I think Stein is a very problematic candidate in other ways but is not anti-vaxxer. This is something that is taken out of context since she used to direct the discussion to her valid worry about FDA's credibility and corruption when asked about vaccines. I suspect this was both to avoid alienating the anti-vaxxers who vote for the Green party and to talk about an issue she sees as important. When this became a problem for her she explicitly came out in support of vaccinations. This flirting with the anti-vaxxer movement and abandoning them when called out for it is something both Obama and Hillary have also done.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 05:52:47 pm
https://youtu.be/VfN9aFnqNy4

Hillary Clinton is so scripted she literally read from a script doing a telephone interview.

EDIT:

I wouldn't read too much into Johnson's statement on mandatory vaccinations. It doesn't necessarily reflect his personal views on vaccination because libertarian ideology would demand that people be free to choose whether to vaccinate their kids or not; government shouldn't make that choice for them. I wouldn't be surprised if, were he asked, "Should people get vaccinated?" he would give a different answer than he would to the question, "Should the government mandate that people get vaccinated?" which is the question he was answering.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 12, 2016, 07:22:33 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5688

Remember when people who said the Democratic debates were specifically scheduled to avoid giving them a lot of exposure were called nuts?

Quote
DNC Debate Proposal

...

Through internal discussions, we concluded that it was in our interest to: 1) limit the number of debates (and the number in each state); 2) start the debates as late as possible; 3) keep debates out of the busy window between February 1 and February 27, 2016 (Iowa to South Carolina); 4) create a schedule that would allow the later debates to be cancelled if the race is for practical purposes over; 5) encourage an emphasis on local issues and local media participants in the debate formats; and 6) ensure a format that provides equal time for all candidates and does not give the moderator any discretion to focus on one candidate.

Through discussion of these goals with the DNC their current plan is to begin a debate schedule that would commence in early October, with one debate a month, one each in the early primary and caucus states, and the remaining 2 post South Carolina (we will need to push them to post March 1 and then the later 2 debates would be cancelled if the race ends). The DNC's current plan is to release the attached press release (which lacks this specificity but confirms the number and start window for the debates). The other campaigns have advocated (not surprisingly) for more debates and for the schedule to start significantly earlier. Mo and Anita believe that this announcement prior to the actual entry into the race of other candidates will strengthen their hand as they lock a schedule in with local media partners and state parties.

One remaining issue is the criteria for participation: we believe it is important to the extent possible to keep the debates "multicandidate" and to eliminate the possibility of one on one debates; the most likely standard that would achieve this result is to allow any announced candidate who is: 1) a Democrat and, 2) who meets some threshold of viability (1 percent) in either a national or state specific (e.g. Iowa, NH) to participate.

So... don't have too many debates, start them at late hours, no debates during the early contests and leading up to Super Tuesday, and try to make sure Clinton doesn't have to go one-on-one with someone (oops!).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 13, 2016, 04:25:49 am
I honestly don't get why anyone cares if Hillary is scripted or not.  Ditto for other similar bs like "which candidate do you want to have a beer with".

They aren't running to be my buddy.  They aren't running for best improve comedy.  They are running for president.  Media focus on president stuff.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 13, 2016, 05:26:42 am
I honestly don't get why anyone cares if Hillary is scripted or not.  Ditto for other similar bs like "which candidate do you want to have a beer with".

Hillary being scripted means that she's not necessarily speaking what she honestly believes, but what she (or her campaign) think will play best to the audience at the time.

There's a good amount of other stuff in the e-mails that show the campaign changing their message depending on the political winds.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 13, 2016, 10:48:16 am
Yeah but they all do that. Trump even did that when he tried to pretend to cater to minorities, he's just not good at it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 13, 2016, 11:01:26 am
The thing with Hillary is that she is not very good at hiding it either. She knows the system thoroughly and uses it to her advantage as efficiently as possible but she isn't actually a very good politician when it comes to dealing with the voter base. To me it looks like she tries to compensate her disadvantage in oratory and charisma with even more attention to her strengths in the organizing department. She said herself in a debate with Sanders that she is not a natural politician and while some people laughed at it it seems to actually be true but she was obviously calculating even in her honesty. A "natural" politician would accomplish the same things as she without the crutches she uses (like the scripted interview) and would be able to use their charisma to convince people to ignore or accept their political maneuvering.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 13, 2016, 03:51:45 pm
Yeah but they all do that. Trump even did that when he tried to pretend to cater to minorities, he's just not good at it.

The difference is that Trump can do it on the fly; his stuff about Mexicans being rapists in the speech announcing his candidacy was not in the script from which he was reading. He can actually read a crowd and say what they want to hear; Clinton can't.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 13, 2016, 04:03:42 pm
Trump can cater to white people on the fly, but he can't change his rhetoric to appeal to Mexicans, African Americans, Women, Muslims etc.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 14, 2016, 09:07:47 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5613

Hillary Clinton's campaign (before she'd announced) was being consulted on when primaries should be held. In particular, they wanted to keep blue states (like California) late.

Quote
FYI--Lehane called me about CA primary and I told him that the operating strategy is to keep blue states late (i.e. don't move CA). He said he was at dinner with you and was under the impression that you wanted to move it earlier. He's wondering how to proceed and I said I'd try to get us on the same page and go back with an answer. Are you ok with me saying that we both want CA to stay where it is?

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/9668

Clinton is against the TPP solely to not get blown out by progressives and labour.

Quote
I am less concerned about historical blowback on her past position than this issue eating us alive for being on the wrong side and giving Progressives a real reason to try and push someone more weighty into the primary. There are no other issues that Labor cares about. This is it for them and they actually have voters on their side.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6616

Also, they were assuming she'd be for the TPP... unless she had to change her position for whatever reason, in which case she could be against it.

Quote
All, I want to share our draft letter on trade. As you'll recall, the idea here is to use this to lay out her thinking on TPA & TPP ahead of action on the Hill and a joint letter by all the former Secretaries of State and Defense. This draft assumes that she's ultimately going to support both TPA and TPP. It focuses on what needs to happen to produce a positive result with TPP, and casts support for TPA as one of those steps. It also says that we should walk away if the final agreement doesn't meet the test of creating more jobs than it displaces, helping the middle class, and strengthening our national security. We've tried to speak directly to the most prominent concerns expressed by Labor and Hill Dems, including Warren. Of course, if we go ahead with a meeting with HRC to lay out the pros and cons and then come to a different conclusion, this letter would change dramatically.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/7255

65th birthday wishes for John Podesta. What does he have to say about it?

Quote
Made it to Medicare. Thank God for single payer.

This from the man running the campaign of someone who claims that a single-payer system is politically impossible.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8248

Clinton won't take a position if there's not been polling on the issue.

Quote
I don't recall any polling to guide us, but I'd be a bit nervous about rushing to say we'd never support such a tax. Bernie I assume DOES support such a tax and it could be fodder for him if we say unequivocally now that we don't support one.

To be clear: it's lethal in the general, so I don't want to support one. But don't want to give bernie contrast right now. So if there's a way to re-state principles and say she'll announce something in the next few weeks, that would be great.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/7677

Clinton's campaign was trying to figure out how to sideline Zephyr Teachout.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 14, 2016, 10:25:46 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5613

Hillary Clinton's campaign (before she'd announced) was being consulted on when primaries should be held. In particular, they wanted to keep blue states (like California) late.

Quote
FYI--Lehane called me about CA primary and I told him that the operating strategy is to keep blue states late (i.e. don't move CA). He said he was at dinner with you and was under the impression that you wanted to move it earlier. He's wondering how to proceed and I said I'd try to get us on the same page and go back with an answer. Are you ok with me saying that we both want CA to stay where it is?

Other emails are something I would expect from HRC's campaign: a cold, calculating, extremely risk averse political machine considering its moves. This one on the other hand doesn't seem to have any political importance. When this email was sent the Clinton campaign didn't really have any strategical interest in the primary order as far as I know. Nobody - not even Sanders himself - expected that there would be a realistic challenge for Clinton's candidacy so "Operating strategy" shouldn't mean sabotaging anyone. The party is simply asking political operatives about their opinions about the primary calendar and Mook is just asking if he can say that Podesta agrees with him.

Without knowing what "Operating strategy" means in this context this email doesn't have any importance. With additional information about this it could give insight into how the Democratic party operates.

Edit: I know that the implication is that the party worked too closely with the Clinton campaign. On other contexts I actually agree but my point is that in this case the discussion doesn't reveal any co-operation that matters.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 14, 2016, 11:15:43 pm
On the other hand, at the time that e-mail was written, other people, particularly Biden, hadn't ruled out running.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 15, 2016, 12:14:16 am
There is nothing wrong with a party operative asking a candidates' campaign staff member about their opinion on this kind of matter. If there were other campaigns going on at the same time and none of their staff was contacted in a similar manner it would be a problem. Another way it would be a problem is if there was a foreseeable strategic advantage for Hillary's campaign to have California at a certain position. Yes, it ended up having a great significance in hindsight but nobody expected that when the email was sent.

Just because Hillary had her campaign set up way before the others doesn't mean that the party members are not allowed to have any communication with her campaign staff before the others throw their hats in the ring. Mook expresses his opinion and asks what Podesta's is instead of asking for marching orders so this is way on the lighter side of the gray area.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 15, 2016, 03:03:11 am
Yeah but they all do that. Trump even did that when he tried to pretend to cater to minorities, he's just not good at it.

The difference is that Trump can do it on the fly; his stuff about Mexicans being rapists in the speech announcing his candidacy was not in the script from which he was reading. He can actually read a crowd and say what they want to hear; Clinton can't.


...Is that really a good thing when the crowd wants him to be a horrible person?

In other news: http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37661794?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Ben Carson is asked some serious questions about the Trump harassment scandal and he defends Trump and also demands that a woman's mic is cut because he doesn't want to answer whether or not he thinks that the accusations against Trump are true or lies...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 15, 2016, 03:51:28 am
Yeah but they all do that. Trump even did that when he tried to pretend to cater to minorities, he's just not good at it.

The difference is that Trump can do it on the fly; his stuff about Mexicans being rapists in the speech announcing his candidacy was not in the script from which he was reading. He can actually read a crowd and say what they want to hear; Clinton can't.


...Is that really a good thing when the crowd wants him to be a horrible person?

Not saying it's a good thing, just that it's something he can do and Clinton can't. It's why he seems genuine while Clinton seems fake.

Quote
In other news: http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37661794?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Ben Carson is asked some serious questions about the Trump harassment scandal and he defends Trump and also demands that a woman's mic is cut because he doesn't want to answer whether or not he thinks that the accusations against Trump are true or lies...

If the truth is on your side, you don't have to be afraid of it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 15, 2016, 04:10:32 am
Hah! Tell that to Clinton. The Benghazi scandal is still hurting her despite being proven false repeatedly. In fact she is also hurting from claims that she laughed at the victim of a rapist despite the video in question clearly proving that she didn't.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 15, 2016, 04:12:56 am
Hah! Tell that to Clinton. The Benghazi scandal is still hurting her despite being proven false repeatedly. In fact she is also hurting from claims that she laughed at the victim of a rapist despite the video in question clearly proving that she didn't.

She doesn't have to be afraid of the truth. What's hurting her are the people lying about the truth, not the truth itself.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 15, 2016, 09:51:59 am
My guess is that this is a big reason for her campaign's obsession with controlling what information media gets. The calculation is that her appearing secretive does less damage than being open with the media and making her more vulnerable to the right wing truth distortion machine that uses every chance it gets to demonize her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 15, 2016, 11:11:27 am
There is nothing wrong with a party operative asking a candidates' campaign staff member about their opinion on this kind of matter. If there were other campaigns going on at the same time and none of their staff was contacted in a similar manner it would be a problem. Another way it would be a problem is if there was a foreseeable strategic advantage for Hillary's campaign to have California at a certain position. Yes, it ended up having a great significance in hindsight but nobody expected that when the email was sent.

Just because Hillary had her campaign set up way before the others doesn't mean that the party members are not allowed to have any communication with her campaign staff before the others throw their hats in the ring. Mook expresses his opinion and asks what Podesta's is instead of asking for marching orders so this is way on the lighter side of the gray area.

Actually, I take this back. Robby Mook is a member of Hillary campaign staff, not a Democratic party operative as I understood at first from the context. In that case the email does imply the party staff asked for direct guidance from Hillary's campaign staff, i.e. Mook. It also shows that the campaign did think the blue states needed to be last and the "Operating strategy" refers to the campaign's strategy, not the party's.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 17, 2016, 04:51:40 am
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/9700

This e-mail is a bit long to summarize, but what it amounts to is that there was no real line between the Obama administration, the Clinton Department of State, and the Clinton Foundation... and that John Podesta, then working for Obama, was perfectly willing to use his top-secret clearance to benefit the Clinton Foundation.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 17, 2016, 01:05:34 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3O01EfM5fU
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 17, 2016, 03:05:17 pm
Quote
How many people here have read The Postman by David Brin. Does Trump remind anyone of the description of Nathan Holn (though maybe not the survivalist bent necessarily from Trump) and his supporters?

Quote
Trump reminds me of Biff Tannen from the alternate 1985 in Back to the Future II.

Quote
Don't you dare disparage [alternate] Biff Tannen!

He made 1985 great again.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 17, 2016, 11:56:05 pm
Oy, Biff was a self made man. Trump just inherited his money.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on October 18, 2016, 12:34:40 pm
Oy, Biff was a self made man. Trump just inherited his money.
I thought Biff came from money. Maybe not the 1%, but upper middle class definitely.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 18, 2016, 01:25:05 pm
It's been a while but I don't think Biff started out as a billionaire (or even a millionaire) unlike Trump. And Biff actually managed to become much richer than he would have been just by putting his inheritance into a bank account.

...Actually, there's no way that he could have gotten all his riches from just betting on sports. He would have changed things enough that the almanac would have been inaccurate after a while so he had to invest the money. Ok, many of the ways he made money were clearly illegal and he could have hired advisors to help him make money but becoming one of the richest and most powerful people in USA ain't easy.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on October 18, 2016, 02:47:47 pm
That's right. I forgot about that part. You're right.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 18, 2016, 04:13:26 pm
I saw an interesting interview with Gov. Jesse Ventura in which he explained why he's voting third party (Johnson, specifically). I can't remember the exact quote, but this is more or less what he said:

It's arrogant to assume that I'm somehow stealing a vote from Clinton or Trump because I'm voting third party. I'm not voting for Gary Johnson as a protest against the two major parties or their candidates. I'm voting for Gary Johnson because I want Gary Johnson to be President.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 18, 2016, 09:55:16 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/9707

As of about a month before she announced her campaign, Clinton was pro-TPP. Her campaign was discussing how she could both support it and oppose it in order not to piss off labour.

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/18/hillary-superpac-coordination/

Proof that Hillary Clinton's campaign is breaking even the small figment of election finance law Citizens United left in place--that campaigns and SuperPACs can't coordinate.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3125946-Strategic-Imperatives-Memo.html
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6119
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5267
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5636
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3131760-CTR-Update.html
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6700
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/9358
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8113
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3131756-Memorandum-on-Interactions-With-Priorities-USA.html
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6342
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6470
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6225

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10237

The Clinton campaign's wondering if they can somehow support the "Fight for $15" without actually saying "15".

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/16535

Date: August 11, 2015
Subject: You know what average Americans need?

Neera Tanden: "The smugness of Larry Lessig"
John Podesta: "An everyday American pompous law professor."
Tanden: "I fucking hate that guy. Like I'd like to kick the shit out of him on twitter...but I know that is dumb."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 18, 2016, 10:56:21 pm
Whatever you say, Assange. Whatever you say.

This election has turned a Dpareja post unable to be distinguished from an Assange rant / wikileaks post.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 18, 2016, 11:04:15 pm
Lol.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 18, 2016, 11:40:46 pm
With how much I hate Trump and have always hated him. These email leaks are not going to change my mind at all, and according to polls America doesn't seem to care either.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: rookie on October 19, 2016, 12:07:10 am
So we have lots of friends here from other countries. I see election coverage and want to state in a firm clear voice neither of these candidates represent the majority of Americans. Most Americans don't really want either candidate.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 19, 2016, 12:12:13 am
With how much I hate Trump and have always hated him. These email leaks are not going to change my mind at all, and according to polls America doesn't seem to care either.

I don't expect them to. What I hope is that these revelations (and bear in mind that in ten years, nothing posted by Wikileaks has ever been proven false) galvanize people to fight Clinton's agenda from the moment she wins, which I hope she does.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on October 19, 2016, 12:41:30 am
(and bear in mind that in ten years, nothing posted by Wikileaks has ever been proven false)

I dunno if that's exactly true.  The Climategate e-mails were, well they weren't false per se but they were taken out of context in a very misleading way.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 19, 2016, 01:01:40 am
They are selectively edited and have included some fakes from Russian Sources.

In other words; relying on Wikileaks is basically eating whatever you find in Vlad's hand.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 19, 2016, 01:05:44 am
They are selectively edited and have included some fakes from Russian Sources.

Proof?

On another note, you're already great, America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stGhjokq57U).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 19, 2016, 01:10:02 am
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/26/1552616/-Russian-Hackers-Altered-Emails-Before-Release-to-Wikileaks
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 19, 2016, 01:35:58 am
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/26/1552616/-Russian-Hackers-Altered-Emails-Before-Release-to-Wikileaks

Then I'll await the DNC's or the Clinton campaign's proof of that alteration.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 19, 2016, 02:10:46 am
Mr. Assange, is that you? I thought they cut your internet connection.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 19, 2016, 03:12:28 am
Yeah - by all accounts you have been a very bad guest for poor Ecuador.

And on top of that, causing an international incident as their guest is just poor conduct.

I bet you got some help from shady Russian dudes.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 19, 2016, 08:50:24 am
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/26/1552616/-Russian-Hackers-Altered-Emails-Before-Release-to-Wikileaks

Then I'll await the DNC's or the Clinton campaign's proof of that alteration.


Bro for real?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on October 19, 2016, 09:00:03 am
Look, my homie, nobody's saying Hil-dog is clean.  Her and the Clinton administration of the 90s are every bit as dirty as the administrations both before and after it, nobody's denying that.  But, for fuck's sake, Wikileaks is still a fucking website.  It is owned by humans and humans fuck shit up all the god damned time.  Humans get facts wrong on a daily basis.  Humans can be misled.  The fact that the site is owned part and parcel by a man who would likely go down and suck VPoot's dick if he demanded it means that scrutiny isn't exactly misplaced.  At one time, Julian Assange may have been an unbiased whistleblower trying to show how fucked up shit is around here, but those times are gone.  His credibility is extremely suspect and not just because he's got Stalin's Putin's cock so far up his ass he's sneezing semen, or did you forget about those sexual assault charges he's evading?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 19, 2016, 10:10:08 am
Oh those charges are just manufactured drivel designed to get him out in the open so the Clinton's can have him assassinated.

Ironbite-the accusers don't even exist.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 19, 2016, 10:53:37 am
Those emails are sketchy but lets see the other side's emails I'm wiling to bet the other side is equally as sketchy, they just haven't had them stolen by someone who's trying to swing the election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on October 19, 2016, 06:48:08 pm
I agree with ID82 - I suspect the emails are no worse than what is in the other campaigns. The fact that you are only going to get the DNC and clinton emails itself I think tells you something. At least about who Russia would prefer to win the election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 19, 2016, 07:46:59 pm
I am calling it - Assange's next post here will involve his next October Surprise Attempt to swing the election to Fuhrer Trump, possibly including some hints of lurid affection toward Russia's Glorious Leader.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 19, 2016, 08:18:42 pm
I am calling it - Assange's next post here will involve his next October Surprise Attempt to swing the election to Fuhrer Trump, possibly including some hints of lurid affection toward Russia's Glorious Leader.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/4723

John Podesta on proper risotto-preparation technique.

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e0/e05f6309317e90f07b4e45bf630144212651254be92493d26a1a0fe2de87bf41.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 19, 2016, 08:46:24 pm
Dude come on now.  You're getting to paranoia levels of dumb here.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 19, 2016, 08:51:01 pm
I suppose Ironbite's correct - that aside, that Podesta fellow has a lovely recipe - no idea what Risotto is, but it sounds good.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on October 19, 2016, 09:47:51 pm
How the fuck do you not know what Risotto is? It's italian evaporation cooked rice. I make a mean mushroom risotto
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 19, 2016, 09:55:34 pm
Its one of the best rice dishes on the planet.  And it's so versatile too.

Ironbite-now I wish I had the patience to make it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 19, 2016, 11:46:02 pm
Well the final debate is over and Trump didn't even talk about the wikileaks emails that much. It was just more of the same. Clinton came across as more calm and collected even when she lied. Trump lied a lot and interupted a lot and didn't do much to appeal to anyone but his base. I'm just glad those are over I don't really see the third debate as swaying the election at this point.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on October 20, 2016, 12:44:58 am
I'll also note that Clinton called Trump out on his hypocrisy of hiring illegal immigrants to build Trump Tower... and the guy just ignored it. Rather telling that despite his constant accusations of her lying, he said nothing in response to that one.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on October 20, 2016, 01:40:01 am
The CNN wrap up covers it too.

The Trump surrogates are terrible for democracy. But they are so fucking entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5dro0XOe0
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 20, 2016, 02:27:36 pm
Welp that should wrap it up.  But true to form, Donald isn't done.  He's blaming Faux Noise for leaking the questions to Clinton early so she can get a frame work (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-debate-questions_us_5808de40e4b0dd54ce38996f?section=) and the only way he'll accept the election results is if he'd win. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-debate-questions_us_5808de40e4b0dd54ce38996f?section=)

Ironbite-This is a man gearing up to lead a revolt that could divide the country in half.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 20, 2016, 03:02:45 pm
Donald Trump is an extreme narcissist. It's always everyone's fault but his own. Which is what make's him the most dangerous.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 20, 2016, 04:05:29 pm
http://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/2016/trump/

Which Trump suits you best?

(click to show/hide)

EDIT:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1283/production/_91993740_nasty3.png)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on October 20, 2016, 06:15:45 pm
I am not Putin's best friend!

I asked him and he already has a best friend. Although one day I hope we might be best friends.

(http://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/347191326112112640)

http://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/347191326112112640 (http://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/347191326112112640)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 20, 2016, 06:59:56 pm
It's a very common trait for Narcissists to have a selective memory. They tend to not remember certain things they have said or done or remember them differently. It's part of their mental sickness. Mainly for the reason that they feel they cannot be perceived as a bad person, or another way of putting you down for remembering things the wrong way.
I really think Donald Trump doesn't remember half of the shit he's said in the past, or remembers it much differently. The only problem is that with social media we can clearly see what the truth is.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 21, 2016, 02:38:41 am
I have tried watching the last debate but just couldn't listen to Trump. I tried to watch a recap of it but the pro-Trump folks made it unbearable as well. I suppose I'll have to settle for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdBF6h7oH5I
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 22, 2016, 04:48:53 am
Re: the hacked emails.

It seems to me people have exaggerated reactions both ways about this issue. Yes, there is strong evidence that Russians are behind the hacks. It also seems obvious that Wikileaks is dropping the emails bit by bit in a way that is designed to hurt Clinton's campaign as much as possible. While this must be taken into account when analyzing them it's also not an excuse to ignore them completely despite this being the Democratic party tactic. This conveniently gives them excuse for not commenting the actual content at all or providing the evidence about how the emails are taken out of context.

That said, the other side is that people are crapping on Clinton way too much over this issue. Most of the content I've read is just the ugly workings and calculations of the political machine stripped of its pretenses. Because this ugliness it's easy to forget that most of this stuff was pretty obvious even without the detailed information now available to us. For example, anyone who thinks Clinton turning against TPP was not an obvious calculated answer to political pressure or that the Democratic party didn't favor her over Sanders was fooling themselves. There is slight resemblance here to the relationship the elite sports and press has with doping and the occasional scandal that reveals things people already knew on some level.

There are certainly some particular things like Clinton being leaked a debate (or was it townhall?) question from CNN beforehand that cross the line we were aware of previously of but these are pretty rare. Without the overblown advertisement of the leaks by Assange before the releases I doubt people would make this much noise about the less consequential stuff. Instead of demonizing Clinton people should take notice which buttons to press to influence her in the short term and in the long term to work for reforming the system. Apparently one thing the leaks reveal that at least Elizabeth Warren has been doing precisely this behind the scenes for the last couple of years.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 22, 2016, 03:36:07 pm
Donald has been screaming since Wednesday that Faux Noise somehow leaked the questions to Hilary before the debate.

Ironbite-the Faux Noise debate.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 22, 2016, 04:49:57 pm
Wikileaks recently took credit for downing several sites as revenge for Assange getting sent to his room and having his internet taken away. Its pretty clear now they are not and never were purveyors of the truth, and are instead merely an arm of Russian intelligence.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 22, 2016, 11:29:45 pm
Poor Donald everything is rigged against him.  It has nothing to do with the shit he spews from that asshole mouth of his. But that everyone is out to get him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 22, 2016, 11:35:42 pm
The Clinton Campaign recently posted "The Bill of Rights according to Trump". Go read it - its HILlarious.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on October 23, 2016, 09:41:37 am
You mean Hillaryous?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 24, 2016, 01:31:16 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-gettysburg-rally-1.3817274

What does Donald Trump plan for his first hundred days?

Quote
Trump promised to institute a hiring freeze on federal workers and to label China as a currency manipulator...

But he also promised to sue every woman who's accused him of sexual assault during the campaign, saying they all lied.

Quote
He said he would work to quash deals that allow media ownership concentration, saying large media companies are "trying to tell voters what to think and what to do."

Trump promised to foil a proposed deal for AT&T to buy Time Warner if he wins the election, arguing it was an example of a "power structure" rigged against both him and voters.

"As an example of the power structure I'm fighting, AT&T is buying Time Warner and thus CNN, a deal we will not approve in my administration because it's too much concentration of power in the hands of too few," Trump said.

He also said he would look at "breaking" up Comcast's acquisition of NBC Universal in 2013.

"Deals like this destroy democracy," he said.

He also complained that a "corrupt" media is fabricating stories in order to make him "look as bad and dangerous as possible."

The media are "trying to suppress my voice," Trump said.

And for his first day...

Quote
Trump told the rally that on his first day in office, his administration would announce six measures to "clean up the corruption and special interest collusion" in Washington:

Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress.

Hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce that workforce through attrition, exempting jobs in the military, public safety and public health.

Requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated.

Five-year ban on White House and congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service.

Lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government.

Complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.

Well, I hate the first, hate the second, despise the third, think the fourth should be lifetime, love the fifth, and love the sixth.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 24, 2016, 07:38:58 am
I don't think Trump understands how the office works. He can't just do that stuff just because he wants to even if some of it sounds good. He has a little thing called the legislative  branch that makes the laws it would just be Trump's job to sign off on the laws passed, and I guarantee they'll tell Trump to fuck off on most of those things.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on October 24, 2016, 10:15:17 am
I don't think Trump understands how the office works. He can't just do that stuff just because he wants to even if some of it sounds good. He has a little thing called the legislative  branch that makes the laws it would just be Trump's job to sign off on the laws passed, and I guarantee they'll tell Trump to fuck off on most of those things.

No worries.  He'll just sue them too.

My current concerns are whether Clinton's policies with Syria (no-fly zone, etc.) could start a war with Russia.  I've seen a lot of claims of this but nothing to debunk it.  Does anyone know more about this?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 24, 2016, 10:51:51 am
I don't think Trump understands how the office works. He can't just do that stuff just because he wants to even if some of it sounds good. He has a little thing called the legislative  branch that makes the laws it would just be Trump's job to sign off on the laws passed, and I guarantee they'll tell Trump to fuck off on most of those things.

No worries.  He'll just sue them too.

My current concerns are whether Clinton's policies with Syria (no-fly zone, etc.) could start a war with Russia.  I've seen a lot of claims of this but nothing to debunk it.  Does anyone know more about this?

As a non-expert on this: my impression is that the intention is not to just declare the no-fly zone and see if the Russians dare to break it. That really would be just begging for open conflict with an authoritarian macho strongman like Putin. If you first negotiate with the different sides and come to an understanding about the rules each side follows it's much less likely there will be such a conflict as long as each of the major powers can present the result in a way that makes them look sensible but strong. Of course, if such negotiations are fruitless and Clinton feels pressured to follow through with her proposal things could get dangerously tense.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 25, 2016, 02:25:54 am
(click to show/hide)

That's Eric Trump taking a picture with someone with a shirt reading "Latina Contra Trump." Translated, that's "Latina Against Trump."

(Image hidden for size.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 25, 2016, 03:08:26 am
Eric Trump is one dumb blond.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 25, 2016, 03:36:41 am
They aren't even bothering to hide it anymore: https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/trump-supporters-are-harassing-journalists-by-tweeting-these?utm_term=.ymQkm9RNv#.ugEPOQDrv

Not only do they have a kill-list they are using Nazi terminology...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on October 25, 2016, 08:42:51 am
Are we entirely sure Hitler never had any children?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 25, 2016, 08:55:56 am
A buddy commented that the scariest bit about all these neo-Nazis and "totally not a Nazi, we are just Libertarian/Alt-right/whatever" groups is that they are using the kind of terminology that Nazis never dared to use openly until they rose to power... And even afterwards the Nazis tried to use more PC and "dogwhistle" terminology. Trump supporters and the Alt-Right are way past that and they've seen that there is actually no downside to it either.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 25, 2016, 04:20:20 pm
Because there is no downside.  They honestly think they're the one's in power and nobody wants to tell them otherwise.  In an actual civilized world, if these groups rose to power they'd be treated like the dogshit they are.  Instead they're coddled, given mainstream attention and basically made to be the bees knees at the moment.

Ironbite-if we had an actual media instead of corporate gobblygook, Donald wouldn't be where he is right now.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 26, 2016, 12:45:30 am
In general, the amusement about the mess of an election has turned into annoyance for me but there are still occasionally things that get some chuckles out of me. Some Republican House candidates are threatening to sue TV stations (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/25/1586628/-Republican-candidate-threaten-to-sue-over-commercials-connecting-them-to-Trump) over DCCC's ads that connect them to Trump's candidacy.

Quote
In some of these ads, the connection is as weak as saying “imagine Donald Trump as president” with the candidate supporting him in the House. That’s still too much for the candidates, whose suits include claims that being connected to Trump can cause “substantial and immediate harm” to their campaigns.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 26, 2016, 02:09:01 am
That campaign was a stroke of genius. If they had kept their mouths shut they would have kept the voters who support Trump but risked losing the ones who don't. By protesting against being linked to Trump they are losing the Trump-fans but it raises the question why didn't they speak against him before...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 26, 2016, 07:52:18 pm
Holy fucking shit.

http://thedailybanter.com/2016/10/texas-swing-state/

Ironbite-Texas has landed in the Swing State Territory.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 26, 2016, 09:08:02 pm
Trump, you done goofed!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on October 26, 2016, 09:59:27 pm
I wouldn't put any stock in Texas being a swing state. 538's polls plus only gives him a 15% or so chance of losing Texas. To put that in perspective, that is about his odds of winning the whole thing. Guess that is a plus, that Trump losing Texas is as likely as Trump becoming our supreme overlord.

ETA: The real news is that Utah may go third party, being the first state to do so in almost 50 years. Now that is impressive.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 26, 2016, 10:17:44 pm
Hillary had no chance of winning Utah, but Utah going third party is less votes for Trump which is fine by me.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 26, 2016, 11:27:01 pm
ETA: The real news is that Utah may go third party, being the first state to do so in almost 50 years. Now that is impressive.

Whatever else you might say about Mormons, they really do walk the walk far more than more mainstream evangelical Christians do.

Another state that McMullin could win (although it's pretty darned unlikely) is Minnesota. He's been endorsed by the same party that got Jesse Ventura elected Governor, and, at least according to one Minnesota Republican I'm acquainted with, the state could well have flipped this election except that they hate Trump. (He finished a pretty distant third in the Republican caucuses--36% for Rubio, 29% for Cruz, and 21.5% for Trump.)

Still, taking Utah's 6 out of Trump's column is far more likely to deny Trump the Presidency than taking Minnesota's 10 out of Clinton's (since it's almost outside the realm of possibility that McMullin could win Minnesota and not Utah) could deny it to her... but there is a chance, however small, that his winning both could deny both of them a majority, throwing the election to the House, which could see House Republicans refuse to vote for Clinton or Trump and settle on McMullin as a compromise (since he'd be in the top three per the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 28, 2016, 08:51:37 am
Trump, you done goofed!
Methinks the "deep cover Democrat" conspiracy theories will be exceedingly popular among whatever is left of the GOP after this election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 28, 2016, 02:34:28 pm
From one of your lesser elections in USA: http://qz.com/822089/illinois-senate-race-mark-kirk-tried-and-failed-to-make-fun-of-tammy-duckworths-heritage-during-their-debate/?utm_source=qzfb

Funnily enough I think I remember her from a previous incident where her rival complained about her being a phony soldier because she was often wearing an uniform and saying how she is not like John McCain.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 28, 2016, 03:31:56 pm
So the FBI is reopening the email scandal case under new evidence that somehow turned up. Funny enough that it happens to be eleven days before election day and by Republican James Comey. I don't know if this is going to change anything but it seems to be now a late October/November surprise. But it seems this fucking email scandal is never going to go away.
Ugh this election is giving me an Ulcer.

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 28, 2016, 03:46:50 pm
And wanna know the awesome thing about these "new" emails?

Ironbite-Clinton had already given them up.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 28, 2016, 03:53:46 pm
So this investigation is already falling apart on itself?
Or are these news headlines just the media trying to jump at something before they have all of the information.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 28, 2016, 04:01:21 pm
YEP!

Ironbite-and the GOP pulling out all the stops to stop the fail train that is the Trumptantic.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 28, 2016, 05:02:22 pm
Whatever the pedigree of these e-mails, or the Wikileaks e-mails, I really do have to wonder what the GOP had on Sanders that made Kasich so confident they'd win every state if Sanders were the Democratic nominee. Or did they just think they'd shout "socialist" over and over again?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 28, 2016, 05:47:31 pm
That.  The GOP had no game plan to counter Sanders.  Cause he'd be waaaaaaaaaay to popular with the Millennial vote.

Ironbite-too bad really.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 28, 2016, 05:56:40 pm
Speaking of Kasich, even though he was tied with Sanders back when they were polling those other potential races, I really do wish the race was Kasich and Sanders, because then a) we'd probably have two polite campaigns and candidates (assuming Kasich kept the same image he projected in the Republican primaries) and b) disagreements would largely be over policy, rather than all this other peripheral bullshit that's been going on with both Trump and Clinton.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 28, 2016, 07:28:21 pm
Clinton responded rather well to the FBI claiming they were still investigating emails. Essentially she just asked the FBI to show the public what they've got.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPl1EaaffA
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 28, 2016, 08:50:05 pm
Seen from a Trump supporter:

Quote
Trump is winning in many states.
The majority of the media is in collusion with the Clinton campaign.
Clinton ran a pay for play state department.

Trump won all three debates.

Clinton is not in jail because she is in bed with the justice department.

Clinton is a criminal and should be in jail.

For as bad as Sanders was, he was not nearly as disgusting as Clinton is. You guys picked the wrong nominee.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 28, 2016, 10:55:23 pm
So basically saying the exact opposite of what the media is saying.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 28, 2016, 10:57:26 pm
So basically saying the exact opposite of what the media is saying.

In fairness, many media outlets are also somewhat disconnected from reality. Just look at the debates containing exactly zero questions on the single most imminent threat to human existence. (Yes, more than the threat of a Trump presidency.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 28, 2016, 11:55:51 pm
Trump just said the election should be cancelled and the Presidency given to him.

...this is insane.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 29, 2016, 12:04:36 am
Trump just said the election should be cancelled and the Presidency given to him.

...this is insane.

Cue the apologists saying that he was just joking.

(In fairness, I think he was saying it at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but you still do not say that.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 29, 2016, 12:08:45 am
He could wave a Swastika flag and his supporters and apologists would say he was just joking.

He's like, so Nazi analogue that future people might look back at his rallies, with the loyalty oath, and play ominous and disturbing music over it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 29, 2016, 12:25:22 am
ominous and disturbing music over it.

Like the third verse of The Star-Spangled Banner?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 29, 2016, 12:27:21 am
I've seen claims that Trump is winning because he gets more people to his rallies than Clinton.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 29, 2016, 12:34:58 am
I've seen claims that Trump is winning because he gets more people to his rallies than Clinton.

Which sounds oddly similar to claims some Sanders supporters made.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on October 29, 2016, 12:38:37 am
Not just Sanders, but Also Romney. Seeing a pattern?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 29, 2016, 01:27:41 am
...Sanders is a racist?

No wait, you obviously meant that he is also a GOP candidate, how silly of me to think otherwise.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on October 29, 2016, 09:52:13 am
S'what happens when your only real measure of fitness to lead a country is simple popularity.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Zygarde on October 29, 2016, 11:04:03 am
...Sanders is a racist?

No wait, you obviously meant that he is also a GOP candidate, how silly of me to think otherwise.
No, what I'm saying is all these people said that due to the fact that they had more people at their rallies, they were winning, which as the 2012 Presidential Election and the 2016 Democratic Primaries show, they lost.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 29, 2016, 01:44:50 pm
...

/joke
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on October 30, 2016, 02:49:07 am
http://iowapublicradio.org/post/des-moines-woman-says-she-voted-twice-trump-because-polls-are-rigged#stream/0

Funnily enough this proves not only how rare voter fraud is but also that getting away with it is not as easy as the GOP claims it to be.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 30, 2016, 03:14:53 am
http://iowapublicradio.org/post/des-moines-woman-says-she-voted-twice-trump-because-polls-are-rigged#stream/0

Funnily enough this proves not only how rare voter fraud is but also that getting away with it is not as easy as the GOP claims it to be.

But how else will we keep the niggers and spics from voting?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on October 30, 2016, 04:15:38 am
A black Trump supporter tried to get close enough to him to give him a note with a supporting message. Trump called him a thug and had him thrown out without bothering to hear what he tried to say. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article111038352.html)

I guess this story should be funny but it's telling that it's not that anymore, at least not for me. It's exactly what I would expect to happen in such a case and has lost most of its humour value.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 30, 2016, 05:22:55 am
This should be fun. The alleged emails James Comey suggests were under investigation weren't...

...because they haven't actually obtained a warrant so FBI officials had to admit they had no idea what was in them. (https://www.yahoo.com/news/comey-wrote-bombshell-letter-to-congress-before-fbi-had-reviewed-new-emails-220219586.html)

Quote
Yahoo News reporter Michael Isikoff attempted to question FBI officials about the contents of the emails alluded to by Director James Comey on Friday, but found that the officials themselves have yet to view the emails. So far, they’ve been unable to obtain legal authorization to do so.

An official told Isikoff that Comey “had no idea what was in the content of the emails” when he sent his letter to Congress on Friday advising them that he is reviewing new materials that may prove pertinent to the investigation against Clinton. (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/we-do-not-have-a-warrant-fbi-admits-comey-jumped-the-gun-with-clinton-email-announcement/)

Shit eh?

Look I'm an Aussie and US laws and politics baffle me at the best of times but shouldn't you make public announcements that you are investigating the dastardly doings of Democrats after you've actually, you know, started the investigation? Is this standard practice in the US of A?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 30, 2016, 05:29:50 am
This should be fun. The alleged emails James Comey suggests were under investigation weren't...

...because they haven't actually obtained a warrant so FBI officials had to admit they had no idea what was in them. (https://www.yahoo.com/news/comey-wrote-bombshell-letter-to-congress-before-fbi-had-reviewed-new-emails-220219586.html)

Quote
Yahoo News reporter Michael Isikoff attempted to question FBI officials about the contents of the emails alluded to by Director James Comey on Friday, but found that the officials themselves have yet to view the emails. So far, they’ve been unable to obtain legal authorization to do so.

An official told Isikoff that Comey “had no idea what was in the content of the emails” when he sent his letter to Congress on Friday advising them that he is reviewing new materials that may prove pertinent to the investigation against Clinton. (http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/we-do-not-have-a-warrant-fbi-admits-comey-jumped-the-gun-with-clinton-email-announcement/)

Shit eh?

Look I'm an Aussie and US laws and politics baffle me at the best of times but shouldn't you make public announcements that you are investigating the dastardly doings of Democrats after you've actually, you know, started the investigation? Is this standard practice in the US of A?

My understanding: Comey was required by law to inform Congress (or at least various Congressional committee chairs, some of whom would promptly have leaked the info to the public anyway, being Republicans) that there was potentially more information in their investigation of Clinton. This is because he had previously told them they'd exhausted all information available to them and, once these e-mails turned up, they knew that was no longer true (since they knew the e-mails likely concerned Clinton even if they didn't know their content). Thus, Congress had to be informed that what Comey had previously told them was no longer true.

Keep in mind that Comey is a very letter-of-the-law guy. He's not FBI Director because he's friendly to the Obama administration. He's FBI Director because Obama decided to reward him for having a conscience and standing up to Bush, Cheney et al and telling them that he'd do what the law required him to do when they told him to do something blatantly illegal when he was filling in for Ashcroft as Attorney General while the latter was in hospital.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 30, 2016, 08:45:36 am
If you're following the letter does it require you to announce your criminal investigation before the court has given you leave to proceed with a warrant? Seems like jumping the gun a bit to me.

Also I don't know how you can be legally required to give potential information, that's asking you to speculate before the facts are in - at best.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 30, 2016, 10:33:06 am
The media speculates. The right wing machine hears Hillary Clinton and emails and starts to froth at the mouth.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Canadian Mojo on October 30, 2016, 04:49:36 pm
If you're following the letter does it require you to announce your criminal investigation before the court has given you leave to proceed with a warrant? Seems like jumping the gun a bit to me.

Also I don't know how you can be legally required to give potential information, that's asking you to speculate before the facts are in - at best.
Applying for the warrant is continuing the investigation so he probably had to tell congress he was doing that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on October 30, 2016, 06:59:03 pm
Yeah, but he hasn't applied for a warrant.  He's alluded to the contents off the emails before taking that most basic of steps. At best it's niave, at worst it's throwing Trump's flailing campaign a lifeline.

Scratch that, the FBI is in the process of applying for a warrant (https://www.yahoo.com/news/comey-wrote-bombshell-letter-to-congress-before-fbi-had-reviewed-new-emails-220219586.html). Still, he should have told the public that the FBI didn't actually know what was in the emails or, if they did that they obtained that information sans warrant. They haven't done this.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 30, 2016, 09:27:30 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/clinton-fbi-emails-comey-details-1.3828341

They've obtained the warrant. Meanwhile, Harry Reid is saying Comey may have violated the Hatch Act, which bars the use of federal government positions to influence elections.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on October 31, 2016, 03:33:13 am
And a more serious concern then whatever is in the emails.

Ironbite-very disturbing
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 31, 2016, 03:53:38 am
If its true he violated the Hatch Act, then any remaining only sane man among Bush Administration goons cards Comey had vanish in flames.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on October 31, 2016, 05:58:03 pm
If its true he violated the Hatch Act, then any remaining only sane man among Bush Administration goons cards Comey had vanish in flames.

He's in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, he could decline to tell Congress that new evidence had potentially emerged. In that case, he's breaking the law by not informing them when previous statements he had made were no longer true, and could still be accused of violating the Hatch Act by not releasing the information (influencing things in favour of Clinton). This way, he's not breaking the former law, since he has informed Congress, and so he can at least say that in response to accusations that he violated the Hatch Act and influenced the election in favour of Trump.

Meanwhile...

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/39807

Further to the revelation about Donna Brazile had sent a town hall question to Clinton, this is what she said in reply to Palmieri's comment on it:

Quote
I rarely hear it. I'll send a few more. Though some questions Roland submitted

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/38478

And, worse, a week prior she'd sent Clinton's campaign a debate question.

Subject: One of the questions directed to HRC tomorrow is from a woman with a rash

Quote
Her family has lead poison and she will ask what, if anything, will Hillary do as president to help the ppl of Flint.

Folks, I did a service project today. It's so tragic. And what's worse, some homes have not been tested and it's important to encourage seniors to also get tested.

This debate (from what I can determine) was not like the town hall where CNN could claim that Martin (not a CNN employee) had leaked the questions to Brazile; the debate was moderated by Anderson Cooper.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/hillary-clinton-donna-brazile-cnn-political-commentator-spring-debate-question-wikileaks-john-a7389886.html

CNN has fired/accepted the resignation of Donna Brazile over this matter.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on October 31, 2016, 09:19:23 pm
All of this shit is causing Clinton to slip in the polls. I don't know how much it's going to effect the election one week out considering millions have probably early voted.
I just wont be able to stand it if Trump wins after this dirty campaign.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on October 31, 2016, 11:34:54 pm
If Trump wins I am absolutely not going to respect any of his Nazis I see, in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 01, 2016, 01:06:19 am

He's in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, he could decline to tell Congress that new evidence had potentially emerged.
Welp, an unnamed FBI official reported that he decided to sit on evidence that Russia was trying to influence the outcome of the election (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/31/fbis-comey-opposed-naming-russians-citing-election-timing-source.html). If true that'd be a hell of a lot more explosive than the purported Huma Abedin email discoveries.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 01, 2016, 01:10:04 am
They just need to make some people not vote. That's enough for Trump. His supporters are already the ones most likely to vote (some even vote more than once) and Clinton's supporters being younger are much less likely to vote and therefore easier to encourage to stay home.


He's in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, he could decline to tell Congress that new evidence had potentially emerged.
Welp, an unnamed FBI official reported that he decided to sit on evidence that Russia was trying to influence the outcome of the election (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/31/fbis-comey-opposed-naming-russians-citing-election-timing-source.html). If true that'd be a hell of a lot more explosive than the purported Huma Abedin email discoveries.
...Considering how much energy the Trump coalition used to shout that there is no evidence of Russian tampering and that Hillary is just lying or seeing things this does seem quite damning.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 01, 2016, 08:21:16 am
To be fair, voter apathy isn't exactly misplaced.  Fuck, they aren't even being subtle about how laughably rigged this entire shitshow is, anymore.  Money buys office, that's just what happens when you combine the failure that is capitalism with an average populace that can barely find their own state on a map and actively abhors intelligence.  Democracy and capitalism are only compatible when kept as far from one another as possible.  Without that wall, an elite inevitably forms and starts consolidating its power, destroying anything that is a threat to its power including democracy itself.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 01, 2016, 10:14:19 am
On the other hand, apathy is what elite hopes for and it feeds such a system. It's easy for the ruling class to ignore complacent people who don't vote or organize to put pressure on them. The US political class is happy as long as enough people are activated to vote in the general elections to keep the system running but don't get activated too early and rock the boat in the primary fights or organize to vote too many independents or third party candidates to the House or Senate.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 01, 2016, 11:11:21 am
As @nihilist_arbys put it this past 4th of July, "Happy birthday, America, you shitty dead dream, you."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 01, 2016, 09:28:47 pm
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/40823

And... here it is.

From Robby Mook (Clinton operative) to Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, and Huma Abedin.

Date: January 2, 2015

Quote
Madame Secretary,
I will make sure all relevant information is in your briefing for the DWS meeting, but I wanted to provide an update in case it comes in handy earlier.

--He asked what he should communicate to POTUS regarding the convention and I reiterated our point of view. I flagged that you will not state a preference if asked by DWS.

--He said that DWS will probably bring up at your meeting that they're thinking of hiring a general election planner and he said it would be helpful for you to reinforce that this is very important. He recommended demurring to on who the person should be, so you don't get caught up in those politics.

--I asked that he make sure she has meetings scheduled with other potential candidates, so they can credibly say they're meeting with everyone.

No later than early January 2015, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz were in cahoots to ensure that Clinton would be the 2016 Democratic nominee no matter who else ran (whether someone else deep in the party like Joe Biden or an outsider like Bernie Sanders, or anyone in between, like Al Gore or Martin O'Malley or whoever), and Wasserman Schultz was being told to meet with all the other candidates so that she could say that she'd met with them. Not to meet with them, just so that she could say she'd met with them.

Fuck you and your rigged process, DNC. Now go look at a poll, see that Trump's ahead right now, and think about whether it would really have been worse to have Sanders.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 01, 2016, 09:30:18 pm
So now Clinton's dropping in the polls with just one week to go. 538 has her at 71 percent to 29 percent. She dropped ten percentage points in a week all because of this email scandal. Needless to say I'm scared. I couldn't stand 4 years of this smug narcissistic asshole running the country.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 01, 2016, 09:35:24 pm
So now Clinton's dropping in the polls with just one week to go. 538 has her at 71 percent to 29 percent. She dropped ten percentage points in a week all because of this email scandal. Needless to say I'm scared. I couldn't stand 4 years of this smug narcissistic asshole running the country.

It's what the DNC would deserve, and a Clinton win, by whatever margin, would convince them they were right to nominate her. (Just imagine what would happen if Clinton won the electoral college but Trump won the popular vote.) Unfortunately, a Trump win would catch the rest of the world in the shitstorm that would ensue.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 01, 2016, 09:44:32 pm
I don't care how corrupt the dems are. Anything to keep that orange with an asshole for a mouth out of office.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on November 01, 2016, 10:06:17 pm
I already voted for Clinton. If the Donald wins, at least I can say I did my part to fight it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 01, 2016, 10:08:27 pm
My point is not, and has never been, "Clinton is so bad that Trump is preferable." My point is, and has always been, "Clinton is awful. I hope to hell she wins, but be ready to fight her from the moment she's elected."

EDIT: The real danger of a Clinton win is this. A Clinton win will convince the DNC that they were right to rig things in favour of her, and they will work even harder to squelch any opposition to her in 2020. This will be a disastrous mistake, because the same conditions that led to the nomination of Trump will again lead to the Republicans nominating a conservative populist, only this time he won't be an "orange with an asshole for a mouth," he'll be a slick, smooth-talking person who doesn't poke himself in the eye every five minutes. The counter to that candidate is not Hillary Clinton; Hillary Clinton will be annihilated by that candidate, because she is seen as the embodiment of the corrupt political establishment in the US (even if she isn't the most corrupt--witness Boehner handing out tobacco company cheques on the House floor before a vote regarding the tobacco industry). The counter to that candidate is a progressive populist, countering the populism but proposing a new, liberal, progressive path rather than a reactionary, conservative one, and that candidate can win, just like Sanders could be demolishing Trump right now except that the DNC was determined to have Clinton as their candidate (and, in fairness, she might have won even in a fair contest, but we'll never know). So the DNC will become even more arrogant, and instead of four years of Trump now, you'll end up with four or even eight years of someone far, far, far worse than Trump unless something happens to shock the DNC out of their stupor and convince them that they need to nominate a progressive populist in 2020, and kick Clinton out after one term.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 01, 2016, 11:17:34 pm
I admit this corruption scandal doesn't phase me in the least.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 01, 2016, 11:32:45 pm
The chances of that happening are vanishingly slim.  You do realize that America is the country that elected Reagan and Bush Jr. not once, but twice, right?  Fuck, they re-elected Obama despite the fact that he was a scary black man and every talking head in the country was calling him a "failure" for being beholden to the same checks and balances as every other fucking politician in this shithole of a country.  Clinton, should she win, will be a known quantity by the time 2020 comes along and, unless she does something utterly horrifying like starting a third World War or is found butchering children for funsies, she will always have the preference vote when compared to an unknown quantity.

Let's face it, who could the RNC run?  Ted Cruz is the Joker minus the sense of humour, Ron Paul is a barely-functioning retard, Mitt Romney could possibly make a comeback but his failure against Obama will always mar his record, the same goes for whatever that old fuck's name was that went against Obama the first time, Sarah Palin is as much of an illiterate savage as Donald Trump but without the propensity for raping people...I miss anyone?  They could get Gary Johnson into the fold, since the GOP is basically a horde of knuckle-dragging libertarians, anyway, but any of his proposed policies would immediately crumble under the slightest scrutiny and he's about three fries short of a Happy Meal.

Besides, rigging the election?  I'm sorry, but none of your "damning emails" have suggested anything of the effing sort.  They reveal that, shock and fucking gasp, the DNC is a modern political machine!  The RNC is every bit as crooked, I fucking assure you.  Hell, I will be you a thousand cold, hard, American dollars that if we ever got a RNC email leak (fat fucking chance, since Wikileaks is too busy sucking Putin's dick), it'd reveal them to be every bit as slimy, duplicitous, and underhanded as the DNC.  Dpareja, I dunno what the hell you've been smoking the past, oh, 20 or so years, but this is how shit has always been.  The only thing these leaks are doing is fucking the country over by increasing the chance of a Trump presidency, which would fucking ruin us worse than Bush II.

Before someone fucking harps on about 3rd parties, they are not actual parties.  Jill Stein and Gary Johnson barely know how the country actually works and what the powers of the President really are, let alone how to actually implement any of their "plans" in such a way as to not drag this country into the pits of financial ruin.  Again.

Is Hillary an example of the slimiest underbelly of politics?  Fucking right, she is.  But, of the two real candidates, she's the one that at least wouldn't ruin us economically and socially.  It'd be business as usual, sure, and that business is shitty, but its a far cry from the outright fucking ruination Trump would bring about.  Trump is literally nothing but PR and hot air, at least Clinton has some inkling of what it'd take to actually run a country.

If you want a true revolution, I'm sorry, but fucking the country over isn't how you do it.  Unless you want to start a fucking civil war.  I dunno about you, but I'd rather take the slower, easier path that doesn't end in the loss of untold numbers of human lives to disease, starvation, and economic collapse.  Clinton will leave the door open for someone better after her eight years are up.  Maybe not a lot better, but any improvement is good.  Trump is not that.  And all these leaks are doing is putting the country further and further in his pocket.  If Trump wins, I halfway expect Wikileaks to be subject to a massive wave of cyber attacks until its shut the hell down, because they will have caused it.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 01, 2016, 11:48:39 pm
Just because this is how things have always been does not mean that this is how they should continue to be, or should ever have been, and now that it's all coming out in the open it's time to push for that to change and for the process to become even-handed and fair.

I don't know who the GOP would put up in 2020, but I don't think it'll be anyone inside the party. It'll be someone who's not inside the party's political machine (and, yes, I have no doubt that the RNC is every bit as slimy as the DNC, but even before all these leaks there were plenty of indications that the DNC had at least attempted to rig their primaries in favour of Clinton and no indication that the RNC had attempted to do the same, or at least not that their efforts were anywhere near as successful as the DNC's were) and hijacks a large chunk of their voter base the same way Trump did, only without being a knucklehead.

Yes, I've posted a lot about the collusion between the Clinton campaign, the DNC, and the Obama administration, which drags the corruption into the light of day, but what the e-mails really reveal is Clinton's "private positions" that are likely to be the ones she actually seeks to implement once elected, as opposed to her public positions that she espouses to win votes. Knowing those, progressives who are feeling between a rock and a hard place in this election can plan to fight her private positions on day one.

DONALD TRUMP MUST NOT BECOME PRESIDENT. Vote for Clinton (or, bare minimum, not for Trump). Voting for a candidate doesn't mean you like that candidate, that you endorse that candidate, or that you agree with that candidate. It just means (thanks to Duverger's Law) that that candidate is the less shitty choice. But be prepared to fight her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 02, 2016, 05:21:43 am
On one hand, Clinton's stance on Syria bothers me.

On the other hand, Trump's wanting to deregulate the EPA and similar programs scares the **** out of me.  Add to that Pence's history (from Wikipedia):

Quote
Beginning in December 2014, there was an HIV outbreak in Southern Indiana.[93] In 2011, Planned Parenthood ran five rural clinics in Indiana. They tested for HIV and offered prevention, intervention and counseling for better health. The one in Scott County performed no abortions.[94] The Republican controlled legislature and Pence defunded Planned Parenthood.[95] Scott County has been without an HIV testing center for two years.[

I just hope if Clinton wins, she doesn't screw up enough to allow a GOP candidate to walk right in and send us into the gutter.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 02, 2016, 05:30:33 am
At this point we should just start preparing for the Trump presidency. They managed to dig up one more Clinton scandal AND restrain Trump for the last week of elections.

And at this point it will require for something even more horrible than what Trump has done before to hurt his election chances.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 02, 2016, 07:01:20 am
I gotta admit, even from over here in Oz I'm fucking scared of the outcome of the US election, it affects everyone on the planet. A Trump presidency will help legitimize the worst xenophobic impulses of the LNP over here as he proceeds to throw red meat to his angry white base. He'll also likely destabilize the entire region and start more wars that he'll drag us into as our government sticks its beaks up his cavernous orange behind. He'll proceed to shred any and all progress towards doing anything at all to stop the environments slide into scorching oblivion.

I'm not a fan of Clinton and the neoliberalist economics/neoconservative foreign policy crap she embodies but Donald is fucking insane. Please FFS America keep that freak away from the White House if only because his legendary awful taste will leave that historic building looking like a Vegas strip joint. I'm being flippant, it's far from the worst thing he's going to do if he wins.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 02, 2016, 05:58:12 pm
To one other point: Obama was reelected in 2012, true. But his share of the popular and electoral vote was lower than when he was first elected in 2008. Compare Eisenhower in 1952 (55.2%, 442) to 1956 (57.4%, 457), Nixon in 1968 (43.4%, 301) to 1972 (60.7%, 520), Reagan in 1980 (50.7%, 489) to 1984 (58.8%, 525), Clinton in 1992 (43.0%, 370) to 1996 (49.2%, 379), and Bush in 2000 (47.9%, 271) to 2004 (50.7%, 286) to Obama in 2008 (52.9%, 365) to 2012 (51.1%, 332).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 03, 2016, 12:00:46 pm
Hillary Clinton had this in the bag, then this fucking email shit pops up which the media then jumped all over prematurely. Now I'm seriously scared that undecided voters are completely forgetting the insane bullshit that Trump has said over the past year only to vote for him because of this email scandal.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 03, 2016, 01:02:02 pm
Hillary Clinton had this in the bag, then this fucking email shit pops up which the media then jumped all over prematurely. Now I'm seriously scared that undecided voters are completely forgetting the insane bullshit that Trump has said over the past year only to vote for him because of this email scandal.

THANK YOU.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 03, 2016, 03:41:23 pm
I'm hoping at worse, Trump's presidency would be similar to W. Bush for 4 years.  And yes, I said 4 years because I sincerely doubt either one of them will make it to 2 terms.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 03, 2016, 04:44:50 pm
Another 9/11 in the first year of his presidency and a war or two on another continent?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 03, 2016, 05:04:59 pm
Massive Tax cuts for the extremely wealthy with no plans to pay for said tax cuts?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 03, 2016, 05:16:30 pm
Republicans will claim that anyone who disagrees with the president is a traitor and the Democrats will politely fall in line and not oppose the GOP no matter what they decide to do?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 03, 2016, 06:46:14 pm
Aside from 9/11, yes, as opposed to WWIII and a second Great Depression.  I'm not saying I want Trump to win, just that I hope that's as worse as it gets.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 03, 2016, 07:56:24 pm
Trump supporters have been yelling "Lugenpresse!" and "JEW-S-A!" at the media. At this rate it won't be long before they're singing "In My Country There Is Problem" from Borat.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 04, 2016, 02:47:22 am
Yup, good ol' patriotism during wartime will increase the lifetime of even the most incompetent leader.

But it aint over till it's over. Here's hoping for my fellow forumites sake who have to live in America if nothing else.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 04, 2016, 09:36:31 am
Yeaaaaah.  Hopefully, Hil-dog can keep the bewigged orange peel away from public office.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 05, 2016, 01:01:46 am
The Democratic parties in four states are suing Trump and Roger Stone for voter intimidation (https://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/democrats-use-anti-ku-klux-klan-law-to-sue-donald-trump-and-roger-stone-for-voter-intimidation/) using an anti-KKK law.

Quote
“The campaign of Donald J. Trump, Trump’s close advisor Roger J. Stone, Jr., Stone’s organization Stop the Steal Inc., the Republican Party of Pennsylvania (‘RPP’), and others are conspiring to threaten, intimidate, and thereby prevent minority voters in urban neighborhoods from voting in the 2016 election,” a complaint filed by the Pennsylvania Democratic Party states. “The presently stated goal of the Trump Campaign, as explained by an unnamed official to Bloomberg News on October 27, is to depress voter turnout—in the official’s words: ‘We have three major voter suppression operations under way’ that target African Americans and other groups of voters.”

Democrats claim that Trump, Stone and the state Republican parties are in violation of the 1870s-era Ku Klux Klan Act, which outlaws private conspiracies from threatening voters.

The purpose is to raise awareness of the issue and to have leverage to take action if something nefarious goes on on Tuesday. It's good to see that the Democrats are hitting back on this and hopefully it helps to dissuade the Trump campaign from throwing more fuel to this particular fire.

And no, the irony of worrying about voter suppression when you remember what went on in some Democratic primaries isn't lost on me.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 06, 2016, 02:23:54 am
Someone yelled "gun" at a Trump rally and the secret service rushed Trump off the stage and tackled the one person who wasn't carrying a gun at the rally. He was in fact merely holding a sign saying"Republicans against Trump."

And now Trump's pr is trying to brand him as a real assassin and he is afraid for his life because of the lynch mobs gathering.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 06, 2016, 03:33:40 am
So Presidential
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 06, 2016, 03:36:52 am
So Presidential

He's just like one of us, you know, that's why we need all these guns, to protect ourselves from the assassins out there who all have lots of guns...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 06, 2016, 04:58:41 am
Goddamnit! Now politifact has to disprove conspiracies like this but it is probably too late fir Hillary now: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/nov/04/conservative-daily-post/evidence-ridiculously-thin-sensational-claim-huge-/
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 06, 2016, 05:17:01 am
Evidence and facts are for pussy liberals who can't handle the truth as presented by Alex Jones!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 06, 2016, 05:20:50 am
I've seen that pop up in even some Finnish discussions but didn't know it was credited to the Weiner-Abedin emails. Unfortunately, a debunk doesn't matter too much specially this close to the election - a debunk will spread much slower than the actual lie. Also, it won't kill the rumor if the past is any indication. This bullshit will continue popping up occasionally for ages.

Edited to avoid double posting:

FBI has reviewed the new batch of emails and is apparently still covering for the serial murdering pedophile Hillary Clinton leaking info to the terrorists. James Comey announced that there is nothing there that would change FBI's earlier decision to not raise charges (https://mic.com/articles/158684/fbi-director-james-comey-clears-hillary-clinton-after-new-review-of-emails).

In other news, the reason for Trump's recent lack of twitter outbursts has been revealed: his handlers have taken away his access to Twitter (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/07/us/politics/donald-trump-presidential-race.html?_r=0) and convinced him that the Democrats are trying to provoke him to overreact.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 06, 2016, 04:08:35 pm
Goddamnit! Now politifact has to disprove conspiracies like this but it is probably too late fir Hillary now: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/nov/04/conservative-daily-post/evidence-ridiculously-thin-sensational-claim-huge-/
Aand Comey just came out and said the new emails were a big ol' nothing burger. (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/06/fbi-director-hillary-clinton-email-investigation-criminal-james-comey)

Presumably while following with "gee, look at the date".
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 06, 2016, 05:16:31 pm
STRING HIM UP BY HIS NECK UNTIL DEATH!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 06, 2016, 05:37:45 pm
Oh gee how fucking convenient.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 07, 2016, 04:07:11 am
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581fa7a8e4b0d9ce6fbcc516

The man who will be elected as the president of USA tomorrow isn't allowed to use his own Twitter account because his staff fear that he will mess things up...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 06:17:08 am
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581fa7a8e4b0d9ce6fbcc516

The man who will be elected as the president of USA tomorrow isn't allowed to use his own Twitter account because his staff fear that he will mess things up...

And here I thought climate change would wipe out humanity; looks like Donald Trump really can't stand to lose to that, either.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 07, 2016, 01:51:33 pm
What the heck is going on with this election? Sane people are going insane and now lunatics are starting to make sense http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/14/glenn-beck-tries-out-decency
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 07, 2016, 02:35:57 pm
Well, Beck approaching sanity is coinciding with the election but isn't a result of it. Like the linked article mentions he already showed those signs when the BLM movement brought him at least close to an epiphany about institutionalized racism and white privilege. Maybe he has found a medication or other kind of treatment that works for him (I'm mostly not even joking, he has genuine issues and has sought treatment previously).

You've got a point about otherwise sane people having crossed a line, though.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 02:37:46 pm
It may also have something to do with Beck's hiring and employment policies: he doesn't discriminate on ideological grounds, and he matches all his employees' charitable donations. So maybe he looked into some of what they were giving to and realized, "Hey, these groups might just have a bit of a point."
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on November 07, 2016, 03:28:35 pm
More likely, he realized that all the crap he's been spewing was taken seriously. I mean, actually seriously people believed it. The professional troll realized that his customers weren't all trolls, too.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 07, 2016, 03:31:40 pm
Even the Grinch's heart grew when he figured out the true meaning of Christmas.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 07, 2016, 03:42:09 pm
Even O'reilly questions Trump at times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vfYrzNLc30&t=248s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vfYrzNLc30&t=248s)

If Hanity decides Trump is nuts, game's over folks!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 05:36:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shqblcQW2RI

Thank goodness Trump is an incompetent moron and couldn't stick on this message for the entire campaign. He'd have slaughtered Clinton if he had.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPOPbwZ8FNE

Clinton's final ad.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 07, 2016, 07:13:38 pm
That was actually not a bad speech by Trump, but you're right he has a strong ability to not keep on message.
Hillary's was kind of boring, it needed some pizzazz. Some images of people coming together despite diversity.

538 predicts a 69.6 percent Hillary win over Trumps 30.5 percent currently with just a little over 12 hours until voting begins on the east coast. Hillary has made some gains back in battleground states over the past few days. I don't know if it's due to the bullshit from the FBI being exposed as bullshit. But it's looking good for Hillary and that seems to be echoed through out other news organizations. I'm not jumping for joy yet though this shit could always be dead wrong.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 07:32:04 pm
Don't forget that there was more than a week of early voting after the FBI came out with "There might be more dirty e-mails!" and before they came out with "Never mind, it's nothing," and the media isn't making nearly as much noise about the latter as they did about the former.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 07, 2016, 07:33:56 pm
Because that doesn't turn it into a horse race.

Ironbite-which the media desperately needs.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 07:40:23 pm
Because that doesn't turn it into a horse race.

Ironbite-which the media desperately needs.

Yeah, unfortunately.

And speaking of horse races, what if the electoral college is one?

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/hes-a-state-democratic-elector-but-robert-satiacum-says-he-wont-vote-for-clinton/

One Democratic elector in Washington state has vowed not to vote for Clinton. Another is considering doing the same. Both supported Sanders.

The slate of electors was elected at the state convention, which was dominated by Sanders supporters after his sweep at the caucuses.

Electors who do not support the winner of the popular vote in Washington state are subject to a $1,000 fine, but one of these potentially faithless electors thinks that any such penalty may be unconstitutional.

So... could we see, on election night, a declared 270-268 victory for Clinton, but thanks to this guy (or even a 271-267 victory and both of these guys) the electoral college could finish Clinton 269, Trump 268, Sanders 1... who wins in the House then? (And who does this guy write in for VP? Nina Turner? Elizabeth Warren? Just stick with Kaine?)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 07, 2016, 08:16:25 pm
DEMOCRACY!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 07, 2016, 09:32:49 pm
DEMOCRACY!

It would be hilarious if Clinton, Trump and Sanders were the three choices before the House, and the never-Clinton and never-Trump folks compromised on Sanders. (I know one Republican who's hoping McMullin wins Utah and Clinton doesn't reach 270 so that the House could compromise on McMullin.)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on November 07, 2016, 11:25:07 pm
If the election was decided by a disloyal elector I think there is a good chance that there would be a second civil war.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 12:04:32 am
http://www.gp.org/fec_complaint

Meanwhile, Jill Stein has filed an FEC complaint against both Clinton and Trump for SuperPAC coordination, citing Wikileaks e-mails for Clinton's and cooling-off-period violations and Mercer connections for Trump's.

Quote
In her complaint, Stein referred to several instances, revealed through leaked emails and memos, that appeared to show coordination between Hillary Clinton and several Super PACs, including Correct the Record, a Super PAC headed by longtime Clinton ally and former GOP operative David Brock. One section of a July 2015 campaign memo addressed to Hillary Clinton instructed: "Work with CTR [Correct the Record] and DNC [Democratic National Committee] to publicize specific GOP candidate vulnerabilities." Leaked emails also reveal meetings between the campaign and Priorities USA Action, and that campaign officials have helped with the group's fundraising.

Regarding the Trump campaign, two of the candidate's senior staffers formed the Rebuilding America Now Super PAC—almost immediately after leaving the campaign—in violation of FEC rules requiring a 120-day "cooling off" period, intended to keep former staffers from using their knowledge of a campaign's strategy and needs to develop ads for an "independent" group. The complaint also detailed the Trump campaign's dealings with the Mercer family, who has poured millions of dollars into the pro-Trump Super PAC Make America Number 1, and has evidently exerted undue influence in the hiring of senior campaign staffers and the use of data analytics.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 08, 2016, 12:06:21 am
Jill, no matter what happens you're polling below a dead gorilla.

You are absolutely never going to outlive that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 12:45:03 am
Jill, no matter what happens you're polling below a dead gorilla.

You are absolutely never going to outlive that.

Still, it would be really funny if something actually came of this complaint and both Clinton and Trump were disqualified at some time between now and when the electors vote.

I honestly have no idea what happens then.

EDIT: Because making fun of Trump never gets old:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/when-youre-feeling-low-just-remember-ill-be-dead-i-31008

Trump sued The Onion over that piece.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 08, 2016, 04:37:09 am
My coworkers have been talking with friends and family all over FL.  Most of them are voting Trump.  Every single one of them (including those voting for Clinton) would've voted for Sanders.  Since most are GOP, they couldn't vote in the primaries, but I wonder how much different this election would be if Sanders was still in.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 04:53:13 am
My coworkers have been talking with friends and family all over FL.  Most of them are voting Trump.  Every single one of them (including those voting for Clinton) would've voted for Sanders.  Since most are GOP, they couldn't vote in the primaries, but I wonder how much different this election would be if Sanders was still in.

If Sanders were the nominee rather than Clinton, he'd be taking Kasich's "win all fifty states" boast and shoving it sideways up that sexist's ass.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 02:08:15 pm
(https://www.askwoody.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Vote.png)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 08, 2016, 03:10:26 pm
I may stay up the night and watch the election results...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 08, 2016, 03:39:53 pm
Interesting news coming out of Florida.  It's going blue.

http://www.slate.com/votecastr_election_day_turnout_tracker.html

Ironbite-very confident about Florida all of a sudden.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 08, 2016, 03:45:43 pm
Reuters reports that Trump campaign is suing a district in Nevada. (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-problems-idUSKBN1332HN) The reason? One of the polling places for early voting was kept open past the official time in order for the people who were still queuing to cast their vote. Fucking shameless. Also, there has been an increase in people reporting voter intimidation specially in Pennsylvania. Wonder why?

Quote
Civil rights groups said they were receiving complaints about intimidating behavior at voting sites in Pennsylvania and Florida as supporters of Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump and backers of Democrat Hillary Clinton went to cast their ballots.

But a Democratic Party source said the Clinton campaign was not encountering systemic problems beyond the usual Election Day hiccups. Trump sued the registrar of voters in Clark County, Nevada, with a claim that a polling place in Las Vegas had improperly been allowed to remain open last week to accommodate people who were lined up to vote. Nevada is one of several states that allow early voting.

...

More than half of the voter intimidation complaints were coming from Pennsylvania, where poll workers were reportedly asking voters which candidate they supported, and voters waiting in line were shouting at each other, said Karen Hobert Flynn, president of Common Cause, a grassroots group.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 08, 2016, 03:51:43 pm
Interesting news coming out of Florida.  It's going blue.

http://www.slate.com/votecastr_election_day_turnout_tracker.html

Ironbite-very confident about Florida all of a sudden.

If she wins Florida it's pretty much over, but the same could be said if she also wins just New Hampshire or Nevada.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 08, 2016, 04:03:02 pm
I doubt she'll win FL, but that may just be because I live in an extremely conservative part.

Okay any last-minute predictions?  Here are mine:

-I'm giving Clinton a 50.00001% chance of winning.
-If she does win, it'll be with no more than 280 electoral votes.
-FL will wither go red or purple.
-FL will probably screw something up, but not as badly as in 2000.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: chad sexington on November 08, 2016, 09:13:19 pm
Shooting near a polling station in California :o  Hasn't been determined whether it's related to the election though.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 09:57:49 pm
Dear Democratic Party,

When Congress celebrates when its approval rating hits 13%, you do not fucking nominate people like Evan Bayh, Patrick Murphy, and Hillary Clinton!

Fuck damn you're incompetent.

Sincerely,
Someone who doesn't want to give a madman control of one of the world's biggest nuclear arsenals.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 08, 2016, 10:23:24 pm
I can't believe this is fucking happening.
Trump could win this, and that fucking terrifies me.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Søren on November 08, 2016, 10:28:52 pm
This is like...the first time ive given half a shit to yankland

GO TRUMP
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 10:29:32 pm
I can't believe this is fucking happening.
Trump could win this, and that fucking terrifies me.

And the idiots in the Democratic Party will blame those damn Sanders supporters who wouldn't vote for the woman who epitomizes the detested, corrupt political establishment, instead of looking inward and realizing that they fucked up by missing the fact that the voters were feeling very populist and that the other party had nominated a populist, and rigged things to ensure that they wouldn't nominate a populist.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 08, 2016, 11:13:16 pm
And Trump wins North Carolina. And likely the presidency. Thanks, America!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 08, 2016, 11:15:25 pm
This is like...the first time ive given half a shit to yankland

GO TRUMP
\

Go fuck yourself you deranged, inbred, disgusting thing.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on November 08, 2016, 11:18:19 pm
Ugh.

I'm starting to literally feel sick at this point. I was hoping there were enough Americans with at least some amount of sense left, but unfortunately no.

Fuck this.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 11:19:45 pm
I'm watching The Young Turks' coverage, and Cenk Uygur is having epic meltdowns.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 08, 2016, 11:20:46 pm
I can't believe this is fucking happening.
Trump could win this, and that fucking terrifies me.

And the idiots in the Democratic Party will blame those damn Sanders supporters who wouldn't vote for the woman who epitomizes the detested, corrupt political establishment, instead of looking inward and realizing that they fucked up by missing the fact that the voters were feeling very populist and that the other party had nominated a populist, and rigged things to ensure that they wouldn't nominate a populist.

I blame the economically poor white southerners and others in that bracket. In my opinion their brains are not fully developed at any age.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 11:25:50 pm
I'm not watching CBC right now, and it's not on their website, but apparently they just reported that the Canada Immigration website crashed.

EDIT: Apparently Joe Arpaio lost his reelection bid in Maricopa County. The problem with this is that it means that he won't have to step down for Trump to make him FBI Director or Secretary of Homeland Security.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 08, 2016, 11:34:51 pm
...Or Reichsfuhrer SS...

Ah who am I kidding, that's Pence's job.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 08, 2016, 11:44:55 pm
I can't believe I have to see this fucking dickbag as our president for the next eight years.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: pyro on November 08, 2016, 11:47:51 pm
See you all tomorrow. Maybe it'll just be a bad dream.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 08, 2016, 11:54:03 pm
I'm going to bed. I do not want to hear a word out of this orange assholes mouth.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 08, 2016, 11:56:34 pm
If only I could've been in charge of Sherman's campaign in the Civil War...if only I could've been in charge of Sherman's campaign in the Civil War...if...only.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on November 08, 2016, 11:57:14 pm
Normally, I'd be all over this with snarky comments about Trump, but not this time. I'm too bitter, depressed, and just full of numbness and despair to do anything but sit here and wonder how badly the world is screwed over now. Seriously, fuck everything.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 08, 2016, 11:57:38 pm
This defeat is what the DNC deserved for being completely blind to the mood of the country, which was crying out for populists and instead they went all out to defeat their own party's populist and nominate the woman who epitomizes the corrupt, bought, corporatist political establishment in the US.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is going to pay the price for their stupidity right alongside them, and they'll learn exactly the wrong lessons and conclude that they didn't raise enough money, didn't cozy up to enough donors, and didn't go sufficiently to the right, and anyway it's all those damn Bernie bros' fault.

And as a result a guy who gets triggered by tweets and jokes has his finger on the trigger for the most powerful nuclear arsenal in the world, and thinks that SAUDI FUCKING ARABIA should have nukes.

I'm not pissed at people who voted for Trump. Clinton was right--half, probably more than half, really, are people who are hurting, whom the system has failed. Like people who voted for Brexit, they were looking for the establishment's window so they could throw a brick through it. I'm pissed at the DNC who failed to see reality when it was slapping them in the face, and now it's ripped that face clean off.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 12:05:54 am
My condolances guys. It's looking more like it'll happen. My fear is that he'll catastrophically fuck everything up so hard he'll conclude that the only way to keep his job will be to start a war. That's if he doesn't start one earlier purely for shits and giggles.

Sending hugs. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 09, 2016, 12:06:39 am
The people deserve to have their voices silenced and quelled, if this is what they choose. There is no virtue in We The People, and there is no prosperity in giving to the unwashed and filthy what they could never earn.

All this proves is that much of the white majority in this country are inbred, disgusting psychotics who have no business being allowed to breed let alone vote.

I hate these people. I hate the South. I hate that orange pig and his family of writhing tumors.

I wish this could all go away tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 12:14:53 am
It's a very good time to be a rich American, apparently.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 12:16:49 am
It's a very good time to be a rich American, apparently.
Yeah, they can fly off somewhere else!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 12:17:46 am
The thing is that it looks like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania are all likely to go to Trump, and that's because they hate NAFTA, and who got NAFTA through? Bill Clinton. With Hillary at his side.

Who fought against NAFTA? Bernie Sanders.

THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD HAVE NOMINATED SANDERS, YOU DNC IGNORAMUSES!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 12:19:31 am
What's worse than a Donald Trump presidency? A Donald Trump presidency that has complete control over the Senate the house and soon the judiciary branch. This is damage that is going to take decades to fix.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 12:23:36 am
Interesting that our resident Clinton surrogate hasn't posted in two weeks...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 09, 2016, 12:25:23 am
I don't blame Queen - if I were a member of a sexual minority, I'd be finding out how to leave the First American Reich at earliest opportunity. With the sort of people in charge now, there's little other option.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 12:27:49 am
Wonder if my work will start dealing with asylum seekers from the United States as well as those from Syria, Burma and Afghanistan.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 12:28:04 am
I don't blame Queen - if I were a member of a sexual minority, I'd be finding out how to leave the First American Reich at earliest opportunity. With the sort of people in charge now, there's little other option.

Point.

EDIT: And, yes, Citizenship and Immigration Canada's website has crashed.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 12:41:08 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 09, 2016, 12:43:10 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?

Voter suppression and third party spoilers are two ways.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 12:43:25 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?

Polls look at likely voters, and a bunch of unlikely, throw-a-brick-through-the-window voters showed up.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 12:46:25 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?
They underestimated racism.

Clearly it wins elections.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on November 09, 2016, 01:01:40 am
I sent an email to the museum in Alberta where I worked last year describing how I've improved since then, name-dropping references, and asking if they have any possibilities for anything to put me to work on.

Unlikely, but it's a desperate act I had to try.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 01:12:03 am
Yikes! According to wikipedia Trump is leading...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 01:18:32 am
Yikes! According to wikipedia Trump is leading...

At this point, I don't see any realistic way he gets fewer than 270 electoral votes.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: lord gibbon on November 09, 2016, 01:21:04 am
I'm certainly despairing, but let me just reassure some people. My father told me tonight about how the first presidential election he voted is saw Reagan elected. It'll be hard. It'll hurt. But it's not the end. We survived Reagan. We survived Bush. We'll survive Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 01:24:56 am
I'm certainly despairing, but let me just reassure some people. My father told me tonight about how the first presidential election he voted is saw Reagan elected. It'll be hard. It'll hurt. But it's not the end. We survived Reagan. We survived Bush. We'll survive Trump.

Reagan and Bush despite their shortcomings were at least respectable people. Donald Trump has a mental illness. He's a extreme narcissist which history has shown to be very bad at having as a leader of a country.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 01:26:59 am
I just woke up. FUCK! I'm speechless.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 01:27:52 am
Dollar value is dropping and so is the stock market. Be on the lookout for more hate crimes just like how it got after BREXIT.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 01:29:47 am
I am worried that the racists well see electing Donald Trump as an excuse to commit hate crimes.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 01:32:28 am
So, the GOP is getting the president, the senate and the supreme court. Total victory for them and free hands to do whatever the heck they want.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 01:34:37 am
So, the GOP is getting the president, the senate and the supreme court. Total victory for them and free hands to do whatever the heck they want.

Yep.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 01:41:41 am
I am worried that the racists well see electing Donald Trump as an excuse to commit hate crimes.
That was a given. Regardless of the outcome.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 01:45:48 am
Warren/Gabbard 2020? Or get Nina Turner in there?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 01:45:58 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?

Polls look at likely voters, and a bunch of unlikely, throw-a-brick-through-the-window voters showed up.

If the Brexit development is any guide this is the case. Yes, racism plays a part. Sexism also plays a smaller one. These together with people wanting to say FU to the mess of a political system and culture raised a bunch of assholes representing the worst the system has to offer to the power because they have an orange fart cushion full of hot air as their figurehead. Congrats, president Pence.

Also, fuck you Assange. Not for leaking the stuff but the timing when doing it. It was perfect for the purpose and you intentionally handed the brick to these people.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 01:51:29 am
Fuck Comey too. Sleazy shitbag, letter of the law my hairy Aussie arse!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 01:54:59 am
It's a very good time to be a rich American, apparently.
Yeah, they can fly off somewhere else!
They can, but why would they want to? Tax cuts (for the wealthy) and deregulation are inbound and, contrary to popular belief, he's not going to do a thing to get rid of the illegals (quite the opposite, if anything). Basically, wealth inequality in America is going to go through the roof in the very near future (well, more so than it would've under Hillary).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 02:01:33 am
All depends on how big a mess he makes of things doesn't it?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 02:06:21 am
And if it's the kind of mess that benefits rich people at everyone else's expense (which it almost certainly will be).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 02:34:01 am
We really need to get the main page ready for the comments that start coming from fundies and racists...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Søren on November 09, 2016, 02:58:58 am
Hopefully the right wave will pick up in australia. Pauline Hanson needs a bigger base!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 03:05:03 am
Just seen (hidden for size):

(click to show/hide)

Quote
I couldn't be more smug right now!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 03:06:03 am
Hopefully the right wave will pick up in australia. Pauline Hanson needs a bigger base!
Hopefully that shit for brains will get cancer and die! Hopefully her base will give themselves alcohol poisoning and and join her in death.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 03:11:01 am
538 had Clinton to win at 71 % today. How did they get it so wrong?

Polls look at likely voters, and a bunch of unlikely, throw-a-brick-through-the-window voters showed up.

If the Brexit development is any guide this is the case. Yes, racism plays a part. Sexism also plays a smaller one. These together with people wanting to say FU to the mess of a political system and culture raised a bunch of assholes representing the worst the system has to offer to the power because they have an orange fart cushion full of hot air as their figurehead. Congrats, president Pence.

Also, fuck you Assange. Not for leaking the stuff but the timing when doing it. It was perfect for the purpose and you intentionally handed the brick to these people.

I would say that Brexit and now this have demonstrated quite clearly that leftists should now be aware they need more arguments against things than calling them racist and sexist.

That was all you lot were shrieking during both campaigns...and look how far that got you.

Seriously, ever since Trump got the republican nomination that's all we've heard.  And even if he is a massive racist...well i'm sure you've heard the story of the boy who cried wolf...

And now for a musical interlude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY

I'm off to enjoy a day in a Clinton-free world.  Laters :)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 03:12:25 am
Possible picks for Trump's Cabinet:

Secretary of State Newt Gingrich
Attorney General Rudy Giuliani
Secretary of Defense Michael Flynn (or National Security Advisor)
Jeff Sessions gets something

Chief of Staff Reince Priebus
Chris Christie is the head of his transition team

John Bolton will be a top foreign policy advisor

Honestly Giuliani scares me most. Nationwide stop-and-frisk with a huge conservative majority on the Supreme Court? Fuck, if I were black or Latino or Asian or gay or transgender or whatever... I'd be gone.

And the Affordable Care Act? Gone on day one. Say goodbye to your medical insurance.

EDIT: Also, replacing Priebus as RNC chair? Corey Lewandowski.

And how about Press Secretary Alex Jones?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 09, 2016, 03:15:06 am
Welcome to darkest timeline folks.

Ironbite-not sure if we're gonna survive.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 03:18:13 am
Welcome to darkest timeline folks.

Ironbite-not sure if we're gonna survive.

Cheer up Chuck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ud3pK5Wa90).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 03:33:08 am
Just need him to name Broken Matt Hardy as secretary of state now and my dream scenario for America is at hand

*chuckles*
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 03:37:26 am
Does "laters" mean "I have 390 posts before my final  gloat" in Tory?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 03:53:38 am
I would say that Brexit and now this have demonstrated quite clearly that leftists should now be aware they need more arguments against things than calling them racist and sexist.

That was all you lot were shrieking during both campaigns...and look how far that got you.

Seriously, ever since Trump got the republican nomination that's all we've heard.  And even if he is a massive racist...well i'm sure you've heard the story of the boy who cried wolf...
I believe Contrarian makes a good point here. Looking back on it, most of the anti-Trump rhetoric boiled down to "Trump is a bad person" (i.e. he's racist, sexist, and idiot, whatever else) rather than "Trump would be a bad president". For every argument against his actual policies (his plans to gut social security and business regulations, especially environmental protections, give massive tax cuts to the rich and appoint far right wing supreme court justices), there was endless amounts of outrage at whatever stupid and offensive yet ultimately irrelevant to his actual merits as leader thing he said this week.

Then again, while we'd all like to believe that more substantial and logically sound arguments against him would've stopped people from voting for him, well, I think we all know what the average voter is actually like. Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 03:55:54 am
Point. You can't just say what you're against. You have to be for something to get people listening.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 03:56:29 am
Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.

Hm, I wonder who on the Democratic side was loud and emotional...

Point. You can't just say what you're against. You have to be for something to get people listening.

Yeah. Clinton only gave people something to vote against, not something to vote for.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 04:02:42 am
Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.

Hm, I wonder who on the Democratic side was loud and emotional...

You mean Sanders? As I recall, he focused far more on actual issues and policies rather than flinging poo at his opponent.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 04:08:10 am
Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.

Hm, I wonder who on the Democratic side was loud and emotional...

You mean Sanders? As I recall, he focused far more on actual issues and policies rather than flinging poo at his opponent.

But he was loud and emotional as he talked about those issues and policies.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 04:16:56 am
Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.

Hm, I wonder who on the Democratic side was loud and emotional...

You mean Sanders? As I recall, he focused far more on actual issues and policies rather than flinging poo at his opponent.

But he was loud and emotional as he talked about those issues and policies.

Eh, I suppose.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 04:19:59 am
Anyway, I hope that the Democratic Party learns (or is made to learn, or is overthrown and replaced by a party* that already knows) the lesson that you have to fight populism with populism of a distinctly different political stripe, and that in four years time they nominate someone like Alan Grayson, Nina Turner, Tulsi Gabbard, or Elizabeth Warren and clobber the hell out of Donald Trump. If they nominate another corporatist conservative, they'll lose even worse than they did this time.

*By which I mean that the leadership of the party is turfed out and replaced, not that there's a new party with a new name taking their place.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 05:04:18 am
Clinton was very clear on her policies. They were out in the open while Trump refused to explain what he was going to do. Hillary got criticism as a "warmonger" on her Syrian plans while Trump had no clue what to other than "build more walls! Shut it all down!"
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 05:19:52 am
Clinton was very clear on her policies. They were out in the open while Trump refused to explain what he was going to do. Hillary got criticism as a "warmonger" on her Syrian plans while Trump had no clue what to other than "build more walls! Shut it all down!"

She may have been clear, but she wasn't passionate. Trump wasn't clear, but he was passionate.

On another note, I can't wait to see the media ignore the role they played in Trump being elected, between ignoring Sanders (possibly at the behest of Clinton) and giving Trump tons of free media (also possibly at the behest of Clinton).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 05:37:18 am
Most likely, he won because his opponents weren't loud and emotional enough.

Hm, I wonder who on the Democratic side was loud and emotional...

You mean Sanders? As I recall, he focused far more on actual issues and policies rather than flinging poo at his opponent.

But he was loud and emotional as he talked about those issues and policies.

Trump offered emotional and empty or simplified assurances about fixing people's problems since that's all he had. Sanders did use the same emotions to his advantage but offered a more issues based solutions; Clinton concentrated more on attacking Trump's persona despite having also an actual issues based backbone in her campaign. She failed but this might still have been a better strategy for her since her credibility was wrecked so badly that her message could have been drowned by both fair and unfair distrust. Sanders didn't have the same burden and could have brought a more effective attack on the issues. Yes, the Republicans would have tried to attack his credibility but these attacks wouldn't have had the same uncomfortable seeds of truth than many attacks against Clinton had and I suspect they would have harmed him even less than the racism line of attack harmed Trump.

Of course, this is speculation at its core so even I take it with a grain of salt myself.

I would say that Brexit and now this have demonstrated quite clearly that leftists should now be aware they need more arguments against things than calling them racist and sexist.

That was all you lot were shrieking during both campaigns...and look how far that got you.

Come on. Trump was so openly racist that it needed to be pointed out. You've got a better point with Brexit campaign than with this election. Clinton had a much better issues based arguments than Trump as her backbone but she made the strategic choice to attack Trump on his personal flaws and "PC outrage"*. I don't know if different approach would have changed anything with as flawed a messenger as she is, though. You are also ignoring that the one candidate who had his campaign most concentrated on actual issues in the whole election fiasco was Sanders - the candidate furthest to the left of all the R and D candidates.

*I usually find this term is so vague that it's almost useless but it's descriptive in this case in many ways
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 05:43:31 am
That's what gets me, he's only passionate about his own ego. He's completely cynical about everything else, the guy was pro choice until he needed the GOP to stroke his cock. He won't reopen the factories or the mines, his caps are made in foreign sweatshops and he won't get Mexico to pay for that stupid wall.

Trump believes in Trump and yeah, he's a racist but he doesn't believe in the batshit schemes of the alt right anymore than he believes in the sexual morality of the Christian coalition.

Hillary is an egomaniac too but she did have identifiable ideals that weren't solely expressed to get people to heap praise on her. This election  was won on the passion of a man who believes in nothing but himself.

Incredible.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on November 09, 2016, 06:06:02 am
Does anybody have any idea of what Trump is actually going to do?

I can't believe that he is simply going to repeal the affordable care act on the first day without any replacement bill? I suppose he could seeing as the republican's have the house and the senate.

Not a good time to have a lot of money in the stock market.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 09, 2016, 06:10:08 am
A lot of people also hated Clinton because of her connections to Wall Street.  They knew she's corrupt and saw Trump as anti-establishment (even though he's the opposite).

If they're smart, they'll push Sanders, Warren, or someone similar in 2020.  If they lose that after 4 years of crap, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Congress being controlled by the GOP, they need 2/3 vote to pass anything, right?  From what I've seen, the GOP controls 55% of the House and 51% of the Senate.  so they shouldn't be able to pass anything stupid, right?

Anyway, get ready for 4 years of suck and hopefully a real candidate in '20.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 06:15:41 am
A lot of people also hated Clinton because of her connections to Wall Street.  They knew she's corrupt and saw Trump as anti-establishment (even though he's the opposite).

If they're smart, they'll push Sanders, Warren, or someone similar in 2020.  If they lose that after 4 years of crap, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Congress being controlled by the GOP, they need 2/3 vote to pass anything, right?  From what I've seen, the GOP controls 55% of the House and 51% of the Senate.  so they shouldn't be able to pass anything stupid, right?

Anyway, get ready for 4 years of suck and hopefully a real candidate in '20.

2/3 is for constitutional amendments. They do need 3/5 in the Senate to break filibusters (which don't have to be real filibusters), but the Democrats are spineless (and want to do half that stuff anyway, since they're equally bought) and won't want to be perceived as the "Party of No," however horrendous the things that Trump and Congressional Republicans want to do.

Not only that, but killing the filibuster for good takes only a simple majority in the Senate to change its rules of procedure. Harry Reid did that some years back for judicial appointments (except for the Supreme Court).
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 06:19:24 am
As for Congress being controlled by the GOP, they need 2/3 vote to pass anything, right?  From what I've seen, the GOP controls 55% of the House and 51% of the Senate.  so they shouldn't be able to pass anything stupid, right?

Anyway, get ready for 4 years of suck and hopefully a real candidate in '20.
The Democratic base is much less forgiving about their representatives throwing temper tantrums (i.e. overusing filibuster) and screwing over the whole system than the Republican base. Heck, the Tea Partiers reward their candidates for doing that. The political culture might have been changed enough that the Democrats are emboldened to follow the Republicans' example but I wouldn't count on it. If they do, the Republicans are sure to cry about it and might make the Democrats pay a heavy political price come the midterm elections in 2018. These elections already tend to favor the Republicans so this approach has a huge risk.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 06:35:17 am
A lot of people also hated Clinton because of her connections to Wall Street.  They knew she's corrupt and saw Trump as anti-establishment (even though he's the opposite).

If they're smart, they'll push Sanders, Warren, or someone similar in 2020.  If they lose that after 4 years of crap, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Congress being controlled by the GOP, they need 2/3 vote to pass anything, right?  From what I've seen, the GOP controls 55% of the House and 51% of the Senate.  so they shouldn't be able to pass anything stupid, right?

Anyway, get ready for 4 years of suck and hopefully a real candidate in '20.
If they are able to.

Since 2009 Republicans have made an explicit strategy to suppress the Democrat vote, they've already stripped key protections of the voting rights act.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on November 09, 2016, 06:51:26 am
As I understand it the next congressional and state elections are really important. Whoever wins will be able to control the gerrymander for the next 10 years.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 09, 2016, 06:51:55 am
A lot of people also hated Clinton because of her connections to Wall Street.  They knew she's corrupt and saw Trump as anti-establishment (even though he's the opposite).

If they're smart, they'll push Sanders, Warren, or someone similar in 2020.  If they lose that after 4 years of crap, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Congress being controlled by the GOP, they need 2/3 vote to pass anything, right?  From what I've seen, the GOP controls 55% of the House and 51% of the Senate.  so they shouldn't be able to pass anything stupid, right?

Anyway, get ready for 4 years of suck and hopefully a real candidate in '20.

2/3 is for constitutional amendments. They do need 3/5 in the Senate to break filibusters (which don't have to be real filibusters), but the Democrats are spineless (and want to do half that stuff anyway, since they're equally bought) and won't want to be perceived as the "Party of No," however horrendous the things that Trump and Congressional Republicans want to do.

Not only that, but killing the filibuster for good takes only a simple majority in the Senate to change its rules of procedure. Harry Reid did that some years back for judicial appointments (except for the Supreme Court).

Well then if the economy tanks (yet again), they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

The DNC just needs to have someone like Sanders, Warren, etc. running in '20 and not another establishment cronie or we'll end up with 8 years of suck instead of 4.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 06:54:19 am
As I understand it the next congressional and state elections are really important. Whoever wins will be able to control the gerrymander for the next 10 years.

Not the next, the one after. 2020 is the important one.

Well then if the economy tanks (yet again), they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

The DNC just needs to have someone like Sanders, Warren, etc. running in '20 and not another establishment cronie or we'll end up with 8 years of suck instead of 4.

Of course they have nobody to blame but themselves, but they won't see it that way. They'll be blaming Sanders supporters--just wait.

And getting them to nominate Warren or Gabbard or Turner or Grayson or whoever will take turfing the entire DNC executive and replacing them with actual progressives, not the corporatist types that currently infest the party.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 09, 2016, 07:04:12 am
People were excited about Sanders.  After 4 years of Trump, they can do so again.

During the news reports last night, they mentioned Paul Ryan and a number of GOP's in Congress really don't want Trump as prez and don't plan on working with him.  Is this true?  Could there be some inner turmoil?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 07:31:41 am
The problem is that Sanders and Warren are too old. And I honestly can't think of any other other candidate the dems could put out that would get people excited.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on November 09, 2016, 07:38:59 am
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AXyCwYnfd3jJS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 07:42:40 am
The problem is that Sanders and Warren are too old. And I honestly can't think of any other other candidate the dems could put out that would get people excited.
Warren is three years younger than Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 07:53:37 am
Yeah but in four maybe eight years she'll be too old.
This is the results of years of tea party manipulation.
The only thing I can hope for is some sort of progressive counter movement that will start electing more progressive congressman over the course of the next eight years.
But I don't hold out much hope for millennials who would rather not vote and just bend over and take whatever is given to them then to actually try and make any sort of change.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 08:09:34 am
Yeah but in four maybe eight years she'll be too old.
This is the results of years of tea party manipulation.
The only thing I can hope for is some sort of progressive counter movement that will start electing more progressive congressman over the course of the next eight years.
But I don't hold out much hope for millennials who would rather not vote and just bend over and take whatever is given to them then to actually try and make any sort of change.
Eight years might make a difference but four years don't. She will still be younger than Trump in 2020 and only a year older than he is now. I have no idea how the political landscape will change and if she will challenge Trump or not but her age won't be a problem.

I would be surprised if Grayson was able to recover from his humiliation to pose a challenge but Turner is an intriguing possibility. There is a reformist movement within the Democratic party started by Sanders so we'll see how things stand in a couple of years.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 09, 2016, 08:36:12 am
So basically our psychotic and inbred moderator and Tory are probably running around right arm outstretched.

Good to know.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 09, 2016, 08:47:36 am
Ya know, someone already tried to rush Trump with a gun and try to kill it.  Maybe, it'll end up being another Garfield.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 08:53:02 am
I believe David Attenborough would approve.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 09:04:46 am
If trump is assassinated then were stuck with Mike pence. I don't want that either.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 09, 2016, 09:17:20 am
You have to admit, he'd at least be better than The Annoying Orange.

Of course, we've also got Congressional elections in two years, yes?  Perhaps, if we can weather the storm until then, Dems will get the majority after Drumpf's first two years are down the proverbial toilet, and they can stonewall it so that, unless it actually does try a coup, it wouldn't be able to do shit.

Though, what about those rape charges?  Wouldn't being a convicted felon bar Drumpf from the Presidency, allowing Hillary to be the de facto President, or at least give her another shot?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 09:33:32 am
Wasn't it already revealed that Trump is not going to make political decisions? Those will be delegated to VP and other real politicians...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 09, 2016, 09:44:03 am
One can only hope.  Thankfully, the President isn't the all-powerful position people seem to think it is, and for exactly this kind of reason.  My prediction is that there's enough of the GOP that absolutely hate Drumpf, but went along to get (re-)elected that, once the dust settles, they'll end up joining in on destroying everything it tries to do with the Dems.  That'll feel like an act of base betrayal to the electorate, meaning that there will be a fair chance that the Dems could win the majority in one or both parts of Congress two years down the line, which will make things even more difficult for the Annoying Orange.

As George Takei (more or less) said, we've endured civil war, two world wars, and numerous other disaster Presidencies.  It will be hard, but we can and will prevail.

...That, or if the riots I hear are starting in California are any indication, we'll have another fucking civil war on our hands.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheL on November 09, 2016, 10:28:00 am
i can't stop crying.  i'm suicidal levels of depressed for the first time in a decade.  basically im going to stay alive out of spite because FUCK NO i'm not letting trump win that little victory.

i came out as bisexual.  my cousin gaslighted me and pointed out that i'm not in danger of conversion therapy.  NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

i've never had to unfriend/block family before, but I did and I told her just before I did it.  Ditto to one of her sons, who wouldn't stop posting that hateful pro-Trump shit.  i am so tired, y'all.  please, please just let this be a horrible nightmare.  every time I let myself think at all, i realize yet another person i care about is in danger because of this fucking election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 09, 2016, 10:54:06 am
Stay strong.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on November 09, 2016, 11:07:38 am
As far as "the DNC should have picked Sanders goes", you've got to remember that he never lead the popular vote in the primaries.  Hillary always had more support from democratic voters then he did.  Could thinks have turned out differently if they ran things otherwise?  Sure, but we have no proof they would have.  Sanders progressives won't get anywhere if they just curse the establishment, they need to figure out how to improve on his showing for 2020.

I'm completely numb that Trump won.  A wildly incompetent emotionally unstable anti democratic bigot wwill soon have control over the worlds largest economy and thousands of nukes.  Dark days are ahead of us.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 09, 2016, 11:13:19 am
You know, someone on /r/childfree posted something (https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/5c0yu1/now_that_trump_has_been_elected_are_women_really/) I think...actually makes a lot of sense.  As economically disastrous as the Trump presidency is likely to be, the social end of the spectrum is another story, entirely.

Think about it: the Republican party, for several generations, has been the party of fear.  Their platform is built on terror, on having some barely-tangible bogeyman that they can point to and say "I'll make it go away."  But, there's a problem with that strategy: if they ever actually slay the proverbial monster, they'll have to invent a new one.  Sure, they'd be lionized as heroes for a while, but the American political memory is a very short one; by the time the next election cycle comes around, many people will have forgotten their victory.  They won't be as afraid, anymore.  They'll have room to actually think.  That's the critical problem with the politics of fear: you have to keep people afraid constantly to maintain power.  If they get too much breathing room, your power would begin to evaporate.

Think about it: if they actually solved the Roe v. Wade or ACA "problems," they'd have to find some other new "menace to society" to survive.  Overturning them would effectively eliminate their two biggest platforms, and with it their two largest voting blocs.  American democracy is built around re-election, anything that would threaten that is unacceptable.  Reagan had a plurality in both houses of Congress during his time and, in that time, was anything ever actually done against Roe v. Wade?  Of course not.  An old fear is familiar and easy to use.  Trying to find another one would be difficult and time-consuming, and with the politics of fear, time is never on your side.

Besides, Drumpf has only recently toed the party line when it comes to anti-choice bullshit.  His talk about undoing all these things, socially, is extremely suspect, at best.  Campaign promises are 99% bullshit, and the bigger the promise, the more likely it is to be a load of utter, complete crap.  Will Drumpf likely cause a lot of problems economically?  I'm almost certain of it, unless a fucking miracle happens.  But socially, even he knows he can't survive if people aren't afraid.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 09, 2016, 11:55:38 am
Trump is a northeastern republican, so are Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani. They tend to be fiscally conservative but more socially liberal.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 12:52:42 pm
*sips tea*

Evening, chaps.  How's your apocalypse going?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 01:31:48 pm
*Sips beer*

I sold all my property and used the money to buy gold and guns. Glenn Beck told me that's all I need so I should be fine.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 01:58:53 pm
*Sips beer*

I sold all my property and used the money to buy gold and guns. Glenn Beck told me that's all I need so I should be fine.

Hang on, isn't Glenn Beck on your side when it comes to trump? 

In fairness, I didn't realise he was still relevant in this day and age...besides you people have way too many barely distinguishable talking heads.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 09, 2016, 02:52:55 pm
Last night they interviewed Beck, and he's done a complete 180.  He apologized to the American people, said he was wrong about Obama, and said we need to stick together.

Trump elected and Beck as the voice of reason.  What a night.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 03:48:35 pm
You have to admit, he'd at least be better than The Annoying Orange.

Of course, we've also got Congressional elections in two years, yes?  Perhaps, if we can weather the storm until then, Dems will get the majority after Drumpf's first two years are down the proverbial toilet, and they can stonewall it so that, unless it actually does try a coup, it wouldn't be able to do shit.

Though, what about those rape charges?  Wouldn't being a convicted felon bar Drumpf from the Presidency, allowing Hillary to be the de facto President, or at least give her another shot?
Frankly I would not be at all surprised if the rethuglicans knife their "outsider" and throw him under a court shaped bus. The US would still have a Christofascist regime but at least it would be a punch in the kidneys to the alt-right.

Still, I really doubt Trump would pick an attorney general who'd actually enforce the law against people like him.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 03:51:55 pm
You have to admit, he'd at least be better than The Annoying Orange.

Of course, we've also got Congressional elections in two years, yes?  Perhaps, if we can weather the storm until then, Dems will get the majority after Drumpf's first two years are down the proverbial toilet, and they can stonewall it so that, unless it actually does try a coup, it wouldn't be able to do shit.

Though, what about those rape charges?  Wouldn't being a convicted felon bar Drumpf from the Presidency, allowing Hillary to be the de facto President, or at least give her another shot?
Frankly I would not be at all surprised if the rethuglicans knife their "outsider" and throw him under a court shaped bus. The US would still have a Christofascist regime but at least it would be a punch in the kidneys to the alt-right.

Still, I really doubt Trump would pick an attorney general who'd actually enforce the law against people like him.

From what i've seen, you could do a lot worse than Trey Gowdy.  I believe there was talk of him being appointed AG.

Going off speeches i've seen of his on the youtubes he seems like an anti-racist and anti-bullshit constitutionalist.  He may even be pro-choice. 

You might like it...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 03:54:12 pm
*Sips beer*

I sold all my property and used the money to buy gold and guns. Glenn Beck told me that's all I need so I should be fine.

Hang on, isn't Glenn Beck on your side when it comes to trump? 

In fairness, I didn't realise he was still relevant in this day and age...besides you people have way too many barely distinguishable talking heads.
That's a big reason why I trust him enough to take his advice about confronting the apocalypse. On your side of the fence Alex Jones has also some intriguing ideas but I'm afraid that his super male vitality pills would destroy my effeminate liberalism that is so important to my core identity.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 03:59:01 pm
anti-racist and anti-bullshit constitutionalist.  He may even be pro-choice. 
Well, he's out.

Next.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 04:01:34 pm
*Sips beer*

I sold all my property and used the money to buy gold and guns. Glenn Beck told me that's all I need so I should be fine.

Hang on, isn't Glenn Beck on your side when it comes to trump? 

In fairness, I didn't realise he was still relevant in this day and age...besides you people have way too many barely distinguishable talking heads.
That's a big reason why I trust him enough to take his advice about confronting the apocalypse. On your side of the fence Alex Jones has also some intriguing ideas but I'm afraid that his super male vitality pills would destroy my effeminate liberalism that is so important to my core identity.

Alex Jones is a bit like wikipedia.  You just need to know how to filter out the absolute shit surrounding the salient points and then go on to other places to work out what's actually going on.

In amongst all the stream of conciousness batshit and ridiculous product placement he brings up specific incidents and people that have been reported on by sane grownups (but still stuff that's contrary to the narrative that NBC, CNN or the fucking BBC are pushing).

If something he says sounds even remotely plausible, googling it to see if it's anywhere outside his fever dream doesn't hurt.

Although, I guess if you believe anything that is counter to what the DNC is pushing you're an active agent of the Kremlin, right?  Funny how you all seem to have unmasked Assange as a russian spy the moment he started releasing Hillary's dirty laundry :3
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 09, 2016, 05:35:44 pm
*sips tea*

Evening, chaps.  How's your apocalypse going?
With much wailing and gnashing of teeth now, probably followed by a whole lot of nothing in, oh, give it about a week.

Kind of like a 2009-era Facebook layout change.

For real though, you guys need to lay off the dramatics. It's going to suck, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the impending apocalypse you all seem to think it is. Think less 1984 and more another four to eight years of Reagan/Bush.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 09, 2016, 05:41:45 pm
*sips tea*

Evening, chaps.  How's your apocalypse going?
With much wailing and gnashing of teeth now, probably followed by a whole lot of nothing in, oh, give it about a week.

Kind of like a 2009-era Facebook layout change.

For real though, you guys need to lay off the dramatics. It's going to suck, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the impending apocalypse you all seem to think it is. Think less 1984 and more another four to eight years of Reagan/Bush.

Well, unlike 2000 you've avoided electing a president coming in with ready-made plans for full scale military intervention in a middle-eastern nation.

Even better, since Hillary's plans would have lead to direct conflict with the Russians.  Well played, I guess?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 06:54:23 pm
*sips tea*

Evening, chaps.  How's your apocalypse going?
With much wailing and gnashing of teeth now, probably followed by a whole lot of nothing in, oh, give it about a week.

Kind of like a 2009-era Facebook layout change.

For real though, you guys need to lay off the dramatics. It's going to suck, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the impending apocalypse you all seem to think it is. Think less 1984 and more another four to eight years of Reagan/Bush.
Hope you're right.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 09, 2016, 07:06:22 pm
For real though, you guys need to lay off the dramatics. It's going to suck, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the impending apocalypse you all seem to think it is. Think less 1984 and more another four to eight years of Reagan/Bush.

There have been two other times in the last century where the Republicans controlled all three branches of the federal government. They directly lead to the two worst economic crises in the country's history.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 09, 2016, 07:11:36 pm
*sips tea*

Evening, chaps.  How's your apocalypse going?
With much wailing and gnashing of teeth now, probably followed by a whole lot of nothing in, oh, give it about a week.

Kind of like a 2009-era Facebook layout change.

For real though, you guys need to lay off the dramatics. It's going to suck, don't get me wrong, but it's far from the impending apocalypse you all seem to think it is. Think less 1984 and more another four to eight years of Reagan/Bush.
Obamacare. Fewer insured means dead people.

Climate change.

Supreme court. The best case scenario is 5-4 conservative. 6-3 is probable, even 7-2 is possible. Abortion, minority rights, worker rights, money in politics... Decisions about these issues will stand for decades.

This is just from the top of my head. Bush style foreign policy also sounds a lot of fun.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: chad sexington on November 09, 2016, 07:35:12 pm
You have to admit, he'd at least be better than The Annoying Orange.

No.  He'd be much, much worse.  Trump is a buffoon, but Pence is a fanatic.  He'll be pushing his agenda from day one.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 08:34:35 pm
Just a wee point on Republican presidents. The nuttiness in Reagan and Bush jr were emergent properites that became known after they got their claws stuck into power. Bush has displayed vengefulness, meglomania and an ability to make huge financial fuckups before getting anywhere near the White House.

So there's that!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 09, 2016, 08:45:04 pm
Just a wee point on Republican presidents. The nuttiness in Reagan and Bush jr were emergent properites that became known after they got their claws stuck into power. Bush has displayed vengefulness, meglomania and an ability to make huge financial fuckups before getting anywhere near the White House.

So there's that!

Well, both Reagan and Bush Jr had records as state Governors. I'm not too familiar with those records, but they had them.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 09, 2016, 09:08:26 pm
Sorry meant to say Trump not Bush my bad. 

But yeah Reagan was fond of using the National Guard to cosh protesters and Bush was very execution happy so there were hints.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Katsuro on November 10, 2016, 02:45:14 am
Not part of what everyone was just talking about but I thought this might amuse people as much as it amuses me - Donald Trump's opinion of the electoral college back in 2012:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/266038556504494082

I wonder if he still feels that way 4 years later, after losing the popular vote?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 10, 2016, 04:48:36 am
I'll admit I laugh a little thinking of all those companies who gave Clinton $ for future favors that she can't do now.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 10, 2016, 05:28:24 am
I'll admit I laugh a little thinking of all those companies who gave Clinton $ for future favors that she can't do now.

Don't worry about them, I'm sure there are plenty of Congressional Republicans they gave money to as well.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Dakota Bob on November 10, 2016, 06:51:23 am
Hey guys remember me I've been away at university so I thought I'd check in and see what I missed....

Oh. Shit. I don't think I'm comfortable living in a reality where meme magic can influence elections...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 10, 2016, 07:17:08 am
Quote
Here is why MOST people who voted for Trump, voted for him:

The average working American is tired of Washington DC. They tired of them making the politician lives better and theirs worse. They are tired of paying for every other fuck out there (whether thats in state or out of the country). They are tired of stupid laws and rules, taxes and insurances, this and that. They are simple tired of the same old bullshit lies that isnt going to change anything, other than line the politician pockets with more cash.

If you dont think Hillary is one of them, you are blind. The DNC rigged the Dem vote. If theyd of had Sanders (even tho technically he was Independent), they would have won. A vote for Hillary was saying "Sure, continue to rip my ass a new one. I dont mind!" So a lot of us Sanders voters who werent trying to save the world with peace, love, and happiness turned on them.

Now is Trump going to fix this, no, but there is at least a good chance some stuff is going to shake up. Obamacare (while the intent is good) will get off the fucking table and maybe get fixed, or at worst, lower insurance costs because its nullified.

In the end, if you think the POTUS is some all savior thats going to lift the American people and rise, think again. We havent had that since FDR. The POTUS is an American Mascot who parades around to other countries and you get to put a face to something.

Maybe, with Trump the American people will finally raise up and revolt and finally do something. We are pissed at Washington and want stuff fixed.


Now, there is still a large portion of bigots, sexists, racists, gun humping (I like guns too, but I mean gun lovers to tenth power), and just sad/weird people who voted for him, but that can be said about Hillary as well. She isnt a saint and if you think she is better than Trump, then youre telling me again, youre good with the way the current political system is, and you cant possibly feel that way.

In the end though, now we have an orange baboon with a funny hair piece as a mascot, and we can all laugh at that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 10, 2016, 07:31:56 am
What really makes me nervous guns wise is the aim of these rust-belt Americans.

I mean they wanted to hurl a brick through the window of the elites and managed instead to hurl one of the more talentless, silver spoon degenerate, full of shit elite class mouthbreathers to the highest office in the land.

They...do know which end of a firearm they're supposed to aim with, right?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 10, 2016, 08:02:27 am
Quote
Here is why MOST people who voted for Trump, voted for him:

The average working American is tired of Washington DC. They tired of them making the politician lives better and theirs worse. They are tired of paying for every other fuck out there (whether thats in state or out of the country). They are tired of stupid laws and rules, taxes and insurances, this and that. They are simple tired of the same old bullshit lies that isnt going to change anything, other than line the politician pockets with more cash.

If you dont think Hillary is one of them, you are blind. The DNC rigged the Dem vote. If theyd of had Sanders (even tho technically he was Independent), they would have won. A vote for Hillary was saying "Sure, continue to rip my ass a new one. I dont mind!" So a lot of us Sanders voters who werent trying to save the world with peace, love, and happiness turned on them.

Now is Trump going to fix this, no, but there is at least a good chance some stuff is going to shake up. Obamacare (while the intent is good) will get off the fucking table and maybe get fixed, or at worst, lower insurance costs because its nullified.

In the end, if you think the POTUS is some all savior thats going to lift the American people and rise, think again. We havent had that since FDR. The POTUS is an American Mascot who parades around to other countries and you get to put a face to something.

Maybe, with Trump the American people will finally raise up and revolt and finally do something. We are pissed at Washington and want stuff fixed.


Now, there is still a large portion of bigots, sexists, racists, gun humping (I like guns too, but I mean gun lovers to tenth power), and just sad/weird people who voted for him, but that can be said about Hillary as well. She isnt a saint and if you think she is better than Trump, then youre telling me again, youre good with the way the current political system is, and you cant possibly feel that way.

In the end though, now we have an orange baboon with a funny hair piece as a mascot, and we can all laugh at that.
Holy fuck that is ignorant. I don't care what the person's ethnicity is they are a privileged fucking cunt. The US health system lets people die due to lack of insurance and while Obamacare reaches only some of them it still means thousands of lives saved each year in long term. Thinking that Trump or the Republicans care enough to to do anything about it is delusional.

"Worst case scenario is that the insurance rates go down." Yeah, and around 5000 - 10 000 people will die preventable deaths each year.* That doesn't matter, though, as long as the person can feel good about shaking the system up a bit and laugh at an orange clown.

A quick estimation based on data in http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/ (http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/). Obamacare reached about 25% of the previously uninsured people and the estimations about deaths due to lack of insurance are between 20 000 and 45 000.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 10, 2016, 01:53:36 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 10, 2016, 02:29:06 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 10, 2016, 03:08:16 pm
Is this shit actually happening? Tell me this is some sort of sick joke?
https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 10, 2016, 03:14:29 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

That depends on how the electors are chosen:

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G16/EC-Appointed.phtml

Faithless electors can be subject to some stiff penalties: fines (North Carolina, Oklahoma, Washington), or even criminal prosecutions (New Mexico, South Carolina). In Utah, you're outright disqualified as an elector and the other electors vote for you.

I can't see enough electors having been chosen by groups other than Trump loyalists who are willing to go against the results in their state, especially since conservatives tend to fall in line behind a leader, especially someone like Trump who portrays himself like a strongman. Much more likely that we'd see faithless electors in Clinton-won states, like those two in Washington.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 10, 2016, 03:20:07 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Well Fascism is the combination of right wing, and nationalistic with authoritarian. This is why not every authoritarian is a "Fascist", Vlad the Impaler and Emperor Caligula were not Fascists. While I don't agree with niam he's not calling for the mobilization of all citizens to form a one party state in a nation that draws it's power from a merger of state and corporate control.

Neither are you, though you certainly fit the "authoritarian", "right wing" and "nationalist" parts.

But then being precise with words you throw around was never really your thing!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 10, 2016, 04:05:07 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Well Fascism is the combination of right wing, and nationalistic with authoritarian. This is why not every authoritarian is a "Fascist", Vlad the Impaler and Emperor Caligula were not Fascists. While I don't agree with niam he's not calling for the mobilization of all citizens to form a one party state in a nation that draws it's power from a merger of state and corporate control.

Neither are you, though you certainly fit the "authoritarian", "right wing" and "nationalist" parts.

But then being precise with words you throw around was never really your thing!

If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.

Personally, I think Democrats should take the advice they levelled at Trump before the election and accept the result without shenanigans...

...or riots.

Lol.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Murdin on November 10, 2016, 04:10:34 pm
If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.

Personally, I think Democrats should take the advice they levelled at Trump before the election and accept the result without shenanigans...

...or riots.

Lol.

I honestly wouldn't have minded people protesting Clinton's victory, especially in those regions that haven't recovered, at all, from the recession. The losing party rejecting the results is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 10, 2016, 05:33:36 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

Oh my god.  The reaction to that would be fucking HILARIOUS.  As for it being un-democratic, actually...it would be.  The popular vote actually voted for Hilary.  Granted, the margin was pretty fucking slim (~1,000,000 votes), but a majority is a majority.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on November 10, 2016, 05:45:50 pm
I think it is important to note that Hilary conceded and urged people to give the Trump presidency a chance. She can't stop people protesting but she certainly didn't encourage it.

Just saw this piece from an muslim woman who voted for Trump: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump-20161110-gsmwws.html (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump-20161110-gsmwws.html)

What is weird is that her main grip appeared to be economic and about the Affordable Care Act. Trump doesn't actually have any plans on these points, just has had said 'trust me it'll be great.'

With Republican control of the Presidency, Senate and Congress they will have free rein to make whatever changes they think they should. My guess is they will use the same policies they used under George W Bush. Worked wonders then.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 10, 2016, 06:09:20 pm
If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.

Personally, I think Democrats should take the advice they levelled at Trump before the election and accept the result without shenanigans...

...or riots.

Lol.

I think it's too late to try and reverse this without creating even bigger problems.

but for what it's worth, it's currently looking like the electorate i.e. the popular vote, chose Hillary (still, by a depressingly small margin). An artificial structure imposed on top of the popular vote that reweighs the votes by state is what chose Trump.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 10, 2016, 06:38:19 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Well Fascism is the combination of right wing, and nationalistic with authoritarian. This is why not every authoritarian is a "Fascist", Vlad the Impaler and Emperor Caligula were not Fascists. While I don't agree with niam he's not calling for the mobilization of all citizens to form a one party state in a nation that draws it's power from a merger of state and corporate control.

Neither are you, though you certainly fit the "authoritarian", "right wing" and "nationalist" parts.

But then being precise with words you throw around was never really your thing!

If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.
Having a view that's contrarian to the view of the majority is authoritarian...wait...

What?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 10, 2016, 07:03:59 pm
Quote
I'd rather shove a wet noodle up a bobcat's ass than listen to another one of her speeches.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 10, 2016, 08:21:09 pm
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Well Fascism is the combination of right wing, and nationalistic with authoritarian. This is why not every authoritarian is a "Fascist", Vlad the Impaler and Emperor Caligula were not Fascists. While I don't agree with niam he's not calling for the mobilization of all citizens to form a one party state in a nation that draws it's power from a merger of state and corporate control.

Neither are you, though you certainly fit the "authoritarian", "right wing" and "nationalist" parts.

But then being precise with words you throw around was never really your thing!

If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.

Personally, I think Democrats should take the advice they levelled at Trump before the election and accept the result without shenanigans...

...or riots.

Lol.

I have no problem being labeled as a fascist by someone like you. The electorate that spoke were barely literate mouth-breathers - the Rural Whites make possibly the best case for eugenics that could ever be made. These are people who have methods presented to them which could improve their lives...and they choose to get fucked harder and harder each and every time, just because they think its what their religion demands and because the results might screw over people they dislike for having different skin color.

They concoct these absurd ideas for themselves. I saw one article that talked about Southerner Values like honor and loyalty to ones' own "folk", among others. These were some of the most antiquated, hilarious ideas I've ever seen.

And lastly, they choose their Presidents based not on ability or any other qualifier, but whether or not he speaks the same brain-damaged dialect as the rest of them.

Really, its sad we allow such idiots to choose our Presidents.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: davedan on November 11, 2016, 12:20:22 am
Warren/ Sanders 2020?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 02:33:18 am
Warren/ Sanders 2020?

Not Sanders, way too old. Even Warren will in 2020 be a year older than Trump is now.

Look to someone like Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner... assuming the DNC gets their act together and puts progressives in charge.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 03:20:21 am
The only reason for Sanders to run again is if the situation is as bad as this year on the Democratic side. That would mean that the progressive politics have failed badly.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 11, 2016, 03:33:08 am
We need a breath of young air in the democratic party. I think half the problem is that the candidates involved were old - a younger, brighter voice would resonate more strongly. As superficial as that may sound, I suspect it may be true on some level.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 03:39:43 am
We need a breath of young air in the democratic party. I think half the problem is that the candidates involved were old - a younger, brighter voice would resonate more strongly. As superficial as that may sound, I suspect it may be true on some level.

Honestly, I don't think anyone could have beaten Clinton given how the DNC had stacked the deck. What has to be done going forward is to clean house at the DNC, hammer the corporatists into acquiescence/submission/a bloody pulp to ensure that they don't do suicidal crap like put in Dean as chair and Kaine as the 2020 nominee, and put progressives in their place who don't do things like take corporate money. Put Keith Ellison (Sanders' preferred choice) in as chair ASAP and run Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner against Trump in 2020. Nominate progressives for every seat up for grabs in 2018--even if it means turfing corporatist incumbents in primaries--and let the voters decide between progressivism and corporatist paleoconservatism.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 04:00:10 am
We need a breath of young air in the democratic party. I think half the problem is that the candidates involved were old - a younger, brighter voice would resonate more strongly. As superficial as that may sound, I suspect it may be true on some level.

Honestly, I don't think anyone could have beaten Clinton given how the DNC had stacked the deck. What has to be done going forward is to clean house at the DNC, hammer the corporatists into acquiescence/submission/a bloody pulp to ensure that they don't do suicidal crap like put in Dean as chair and Kaine as the 2020 nominee, and put progressives in their place who don't do things like take corporate money. Put Keith Ellison (Sanders' preferred choice) in as chair ASAP and run Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner against Trump in 2020. Nominate progressives for every seat up for grabs in 2018--even if it means turfing corporatist incumbents in primaries--and let the voters decide between progressivism and corporatist paleoconservatism.

Nah, in hindsight she was very much beatable. The party gave her an advantage compared to her opponents but it was far from insurmountable. Part of why she made through is that everyone assumed she was unbeatable and didn't want to risk their careers by participating in a hopeless presidential primary. Even Sanders didn't believe he could win and this reflected on the timing and original strategy of his run. He revealed to even his own surprise that the giant's legs were made out of clay but he ran out of time and when the primaries started his momentum died.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 11, 2016, 04:08:12 am
I keep talking to people on the net on why they think that people in populated regions should have their vote count for less than the ones in rural areas. It mostly seems to follow on "but then the yuppies and commies in few cities would decide the elections for the entire country and they live in their own bubble and don't know a thing about our lives outside the cities." But I don't see the problem in that. One person, one vote each of the same value.

How can you go and say that "this person's thoughts on how this country should be run matter less than MINE" and still claim to support democracy? I mean I know it's annoying for me when I look at election results and see that people who most agree with me are my own age and the elderly voters are mainly against things that I consider reasonable but this still does not mean that I would support taking away voting rights from old people.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 04:27:09 am
I don't know if Republicans do support democracy, they openly engage in voter suppression and their candidate only accepted the outcome because he won.

They're Republicans, they support their place in the republic.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 11, 2016, 04:39:33 am
I keep talking to people on the net on why they think that people in populated regions should have their vote count for less than the ones in rural areas. It mostly seems to follow on "but then the yuppies and commies in few cities would decide the elections for the entire country and they live in their own bubble and don't know a thing about our lives outside the cities." But I don't see the problem in that. One person, one vote each of the same value.

How can you go and say that "this person's thoughts on how this country should be run matter less than MINE" and still claim to support democracy? I mean I know it's annoying for me when I look at election results and see that people who most agree with me are my own age and the elderly voters are mainly against things that I consider reasonable but this still does not mean that I would support taking away voting rights from old people.

Because these people whom Trump rode to victory do not understand any nuance of policy or decision making, nor do they make any effort to.

They consistently vote for policies that would directly and adversely affect educated people, people who actually know the issues and who have better formed ideas. Democracy only really works well with a well informed electorate which consciously chooses candidates for their virtues and ideas rather than acting like a gaggle of seagulls running for a scrap of food tossed into their midst.

They themselves support voter intimidation and try to make sure only their idiotic vote counts - and attempt to silence any vote beyond their own bloc.

I have nothing but disgust for them.

I saw David Wong's cracked.com article about how their world is dying, and their jobs have vanished due to the progression of time, and how they deal with drug overdose and suicide rates that are incredibly high.

And do you know what conclusion I reached after this election?

This group of misinformed, inbred louts cannot die out fast enough - they are louts, through and through, and I cannot and will not EVER empathize or give any courtesy to a lout. I would rather have a corporate democrat in office than ANYONE who would speak for them.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 04:41:04 am
I keep talking to people on the net on why they think that people in populated regions should have their vote count for less than the ones in rural areas. It mostly seems to follow on "but then the yuppies and commies in few cities would decide the elections for the entire country and they live in their own bubble and don't know a thing about our lives outside the cities." But I don't see the problem in that. One person, one vote each of the same value.

How can you go and say that "this person's thoughts on how this country should be run matter less than MINE" and still claim to support democracy? I mean I know it's annoying for me when I look at election results and see that people who most agree with me are my own age and the elderly voters are mainly against things that I consider reasonable but this still does not mean that I would support taking away voting rights from old people.

The US is a federal union of fairly independent states. The primary "unit" of goverment is the state, not the federal government. The federal level is balanced so that  each "unit" has its say in the government.

The underlying philosophy of the US federal level system is more comparable to that of the EU, not so much a country like Finland.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 11, 2016, 04:41:21 am
Warren/ Sanders 2020?

Not Sanders, way too old. Even Warren will in 2020 be a year older than Trump is now.

Look to someone like Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner... assuming the DNC gets their act together and puts progressives in charge.

Whoever runs needs to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Trump verbally.  No matter how good their policies, no matter how much they could actually accomplish, the people won't care if Trump crushes them in the debates.  Clinton did well until Trump mentioned the TPP and her corruption, in which case she had almost zero defense.

The good news is if the Establishment pushes Kaine, and it sounds like they will, any progressive can steamroll him. 

But it's going to take Obama-level charisma to face off against Trump.  Sanders is at least well known.  Do any of the other progressives have what it takes to stand up to Trump?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 11, 2016, 04:48:28 am
There is still a chance. December 17 the electors vote in finality, and select the next President. If there are some defections, we could still have President Clinton.

Sure, its un-democratic. But those disgusting piglets and cretins do not deserve democracy. There is no circumstance in which the un-educated deserve to tell the educated how to run a country.

And you were calling me a Nazi?

Lol.  Nice of you to show off your own fascist credentials there.
Well Fascism is the combination of right wing, and nationalistic with authoritarian. This is why not every authoritarian is a "Fascist", Vlad the Impaler and Emperor Caligula were not Fascists. While I don't agree with niam he's not calling for the mobilization of all citizens to form a one party state in a nation that draws it's power from a merger of state and corporate control.

Neither are you, though you certainly fit the "authoritarian", "right wing" and "nationalist" parts.

But then being precise with words you throw around was never really your thing!

If you support ignoring the will of the electorate and just going with what you wanted regardless, it's YOU that's authoritarian, not me.

Personally, I think Democrats should take the advice they levelled at Trump before the election and accept the result without shenanigans...

...or riots.

Lol.

I have no problem being labeled as a fascist by someone like you. The electorate that spoke were barely literate mouth-breathers - the Rural Whites make possibly the best case for eugenics that could ever be made. These are people who have methods presented to them which could improve their lives...and they choose to get fucked harder and harder each and every time, just because they think its what their religion demands and because the results might screw over people they dislike for having different skin color.

They concoct these absurd ideas for themselves. I saw one article that talked about Southerner Values like honor and loyalty to ones' own "folk", among others. These were some of the most antiquated, hilarious ideas I've ever seen.

And lastly, they choose their Presidents based not on ability or any other qualifier, but whether or not he speaks the same brain-damaged dialect as the rest of them.

Really, its sad we allow such idiots to choose our Presidents.

Yes yes, the disgusting proles should just shut up and let people like you decide what's best for them.

You might want to read that screed of utter horseshit back to yourself if you want an insight into why you just lost the election.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 04:56:55 am
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 04:58:06 am
Warren/ Sanders 2020?

Not Sanders, way too old. Even Warren will in 2020 be a year older than Trump is now.

Look to someone like Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner... assuming the DNC gets their act together and puts progressives in charge.

Whoever runs needs to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Trump verbally.  No matter how good their policies, no matter how much they could actually accomplish, the people won't care if Trump crushes them in the debates.  Clinton did well until Trump mentioned the TPP and her corruption, in which case she had almost zero defense.

The good news is if the Establishment pushes Kaine, and it sounds like they will, any progressive can steamroll him. 

But it's going to take Obama-level charisma to face off against Trump.  Sanders is at least well known.  Do any of the other progressives have what it takes to stand up to Trump?

Trump had the advantage of not having any political decisions burdening him. In four years he will have a four year political record and will be seen as a representative of the new "establishment". A different dynamic altogether.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 11, 2016, 05:05:35 am
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

Yes, that's because you have an electoral system invented by a pack of howler monkeys.

Thing is though, this narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.

What, are you just going to recast more than half of the population of Pennsylvania as Cletus from The Simpsons now?

Fuck's sake...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 05:13:53 am
Warren/ Sanders 2020?

Not Sanders, way too old. Even Warren will in 2020 be a year older than Trump is now.

Look to someone like Tulsi Gabbard or Nina Turner... assuming the DNC gets their act together and puts progressives in charge.

Whoever runs needs to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Trump verbally.  No matter how good their policies, no matter how much they could actually accomplish, the people won't care if Trump crushes them in the debates.  Clinton did well until Trump mentioned the TPP and her corruption, in which case she had almost zero defense.

The good news is if the Establishment pushes Kaine, and it sounds like they will, any progressive can steamroll him. 

But it's going to take Obama-level charisma to face off against Trump.  Sanders is at least well known.  Do any of the other progressives have what it takes to stand up to Trump?

If they start campaigning now, they will. Turner should decide now if she wants to run for Governor when Kasich has to give the seat up in 2018 due to term limits and get herself noticed. Gabbard should be giving speech after speech on the House floor. Brown and Merkley should be filibustering (real filibusters, not wussy "ha ha, you need sixty votes" filibusters) every bill on the Senate floor. Grayson should find some office (Governor of Florida, maybe?) to run for and start campaigning. Start now. Progressive ideas are by-and-large popular--look at the ballot initiatives. The progressive Democrats should be going around for the next two to four years talking about those ideas and keeping them in the public consciousness, because while the paleoconservatives might control the legislative agenda, the progressives can get people demanding something else.

Remember who was president when the EPA was established.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 05:14:34 am
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 11, 2016, 08:41:52 am
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 11, 2016, 09:39:33 am
I'm in agreement that the DNC needs to throw down the old and bring in the new.  I think, given her notoriety, Tammy Duckworth might be someone to watch in the next 4 years or so.  If only because she's disabled, a veteran, and young.

Ironbite-but we'll see.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 02:45:42 pm
Same person as I quoted above explaining a vote for Trump:

Quote
Dude, did you not understand what I said? I HOPE TO MOTHER F'ING THE UNITED STATES REVOLTS. I mean it's not like 100's of people aren't dying every day to killings, whether race wars or crime wars, or just plain hate. It's not like I go to work every day and bust my ass so I can have half of it taxed and either mooched off by the government or pay for some lazy ass. It's not like I look at insurance companies and the medical field rip off my mother-in-law and father-in-law (a Vietnam Vet btw) while one battles cancer and the other is battling to keep his heart alive (and both can't work anymore) and will probably go bankrupt in order to have a chance at fighting for their lives, and yet the CEOs are getting million dollar bonuses every year. It's not like the education system is putting people in $100,000+ debt as soon as they come out of college and have to work for $12/hr because that's the only job they can find, and that's IF they're lucky enough to find a school that teaches them something and doesn't just let them graduate for showing up. It's not like our for-profit jails aren't keeping people behind bars for 20 years for selling weed, yet rapists are getting off, and bank CEOs stealing money from the hard working class Americans are getting slaps on the wrists and then have $10 million buyouts when they are "forced" to resign/get fired. It's not like America isn't supporting countries (whether through armed weapons or food/clothing), yet American children, (estimated 1 in 6) are going to bed hungry every night.

There's a lot of fucked up shit in my country. But that's okay, it's still the greatest country in the world, because even with that, *I* have worked hard, *I* know to save money, *I* have a moral compass, and *I* have the liberty to do things. Yeah, I agree, my life would have been a whole lot different I'd I been a female, been a minority, or whatever else you want to say. I am not arguing that one bit. But to think Hillary Clinton is going to break the barrier on that you're a moron. To think Trump being elected for President is going to have all the racists come out of the wood work, you're a moron for that too. You have to understand, it's been there. It's ALWAYS been there. It's GOING to continue to be there until a giant mass revolution...whether it's done peacefully or through a giant civil war II...I don't know. But it's going to happen. It will happen. Whether it's in my time or the next. The levy is/will fucking break.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 11, 2016, 03:11:24 pm
Trump had the advantage of not having any political decisions burdening him. In four years he will have a four year political record and will be seen as a representative of the new "establishment". A different dynamic altogether.

Problem is Trump is good at deflecting the blame and getting people on his side.  Short of an impeachment-level offense, he could still win if he looks good in the debates.

Who do you think could match him face-to-face verbally?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 03:24:58 pm
Trump had the advantage of not having any political decisions burdening him. In four years he will have a four year political record and will be seen as a representative of the new "establishment". A different dynamic altogether.

Problem is Trump is good at deflecting the blame and getting people on his side.  Short of an impeachment-level offense, he could still win if he looks good in the debates.

Who do you think could match him face-to-face verbally?

There is at least one who did it in this campaign (https://twitter.com/elizabethforma/status/763130669606309892) and who seems the most obvious choice right now.

Quote from: Elizabeth Warren
.@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 03:33:07 pm
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
So because of one expression of what you labelled impotent rage you're fine and dandy with a system that actually favors some people over others. To prevent one angry voters fantasy of suppressing votes you are in favor of the absurdly lopsided Electoral college to say nothing of the rampant gerrymandering (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-is-actually-what-america-would-look-like-without-gerrymandering/) and active (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/15/group-accuses-mike-pence-of-voter-suppression-after-state-police-raid-registration-program-in-indiana/) voter (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/) suppressing (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/10/republicans_are_already_suppressing_minority_votes_all_over_america.html) favoring the Republican side that goes with it.

To stop one guys fantasy about stopping "the wrong people" from voting you give your blessing to One political party's and an entire political system geared to and actively preventing "the wrong people" from voting and watering down the votes of those who do.

All while tut tutting others for being elitist. Look in the bloody mirror!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 03:48:37 pm
Trump had the advantage of not having any political decisions burdening him. In four years he will have a four year political record and will be seen as a representative of the new "establishment". A different dynamic altogether.

Problem is Trump is good at deflecting the blame and getting people on his side.  Short of an impeachment-level offense, he could still win if he looks good in the debates.

Who do you think could match him face-to-face verbally?

There is at least one who did it in this campaign (https://twitter.com/elizabethforma/status/763130669606309892) and who seems the most obvious choice right now.

Quote from: Elizabeth Warren
.@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl.

Warren has three flaws: age (yes, Sanders is older now than she will be in four years, but men and women are judged differently on this), being a woman (the same sexism that came into play against Clinton will come into play against her), and her vacillation during the primaries, which soured a lot of progressives on her. It's probably better to go with somebody younger, like the people I've mentioned before: Grayson, Gabbard, Turner, or even Merkley, all of whom endorsed Sanders and will in four years be younger than even Clinton, never mind Trump, is now. (Even Brown will be, but he has a similar problem to Warren: he outright endorsed Clinton early on.) Warren would probably be more valuable as a surrogate from the day whichever progressive runs announces his or her campaign.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 04:02:14 pm
Warren has three flaws: age (yes, Sanders is older now than she will be in four years, but men and women are judged differently on this), being a woman (the same sexism that came into play against Clinton will come into play against her), and her vacillation during the primaries, which soured a lot of progressives on her. It's probably better to go with somebody younger, like the people I've mentioned before: Grayson, Gabbard, Turner, or even Merkley, all of whom endorsed Sanders and will in four years be younger than even Clinton, never mind Trump, is now. (Even Brown will be, but he has a similar problem to Warren: he outright endorsed Clinton early on.) Warren would probably be more valuable as a surrogate from the day whichever progressive runs announces his or her campaign.
It's way too early to say what will happen during the next four years but I don't think most people will carry their grudge to her for that long. She is going to be one of the leaders of the opposition to Trump and that will gather a lot of goodwill for her among liberals. While age is an issue for women in other fields I don't think it matters in politics.

If she ever campaigns for president it will be interesting to see what her foreign policy line is. She has revealed herself to be pretty hawkish when it comes to Israel and that might reflect to the foreign policy in general. Depending on the situation and atmosphere that might either be a hindrance or a benefit for her.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 05:29:03 pm
Aaaand after his discussion with Obama Trump says he might not kill Obamacare after all (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-obamacare-repeals-latest-policies-quote-replacement-president-elect-a7412621.html), just "amend" it. The key word here is "might".

We'll see if anything changes. If Trump forces the Republicans to change their plans it shows he truly is a wild card after all and is not content to play the part of a figurehead. In this case I will gladly eat crow. On the other hand, he avoided promising anything for certain and him being a slippery conman it's not a good sign. There is also the chance that it becomes a pattern that he keeps changing his mind constantly depending on who he has talked with last which would show he truly is just an easily influenced idiot.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 05:30:37 pm
Aaaand after his discussion with Obama Trump says he might not kill Obamacare after all (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-obamacare-repeals-latest-policies-quote-replacement-president-elect-a7412621.html), just "amend" it. The key word here is "might".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmRr0p0K4kQ

On the other hand, McConnell wants to repeal it outright... and do you really think Trump would veto that?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 11, 2016, 05:39:56 pm
I would be very surprised if he did but I'm not counting the possibility out.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 05:40:44 pm
Aaaand after his discussion with Obama Trump says he might not kill Obamacare after all (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-obamacare-repeals-latest-policies-quote-replacement-president-elect-a7412621.html), just "amend" it. The key word here is "might".

We'll see if anything changes. If Trump forces the Republicans to change their plans it shows he truly is a wild card after all and is not content to play the part of a figurehead. In this case I will gladly eat crow. On the other hand, he avoided promising anything for certain and him being a slippery conman it's not a good sign. There is also the chance that it becomes a pattern that he keeps changing his mind constantly depending on who he has talked with last which would show he truly is just an easily influenced idiot.
Well he might be throwing a bone to the 67% of non college educated whites or the 41% of folks with incomes under $30,000 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0) but nah, his concern for them will last...I dunno seconds, minutes. Is it still there?

Was it ever?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 06:13:02 pm
Here's another scary thought: what happens in three years if Trump and his cronies think that they're going to get turfed out of office in 2020? (Or even in 2018 if they think they might lose the House or the Senate, though that's unlikely.) Trump has no respect for civil liberties, so does he start jailing his political opponents (like prospective Democratic candidates), jailing the press who cover him negatively, shooting protestors...
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 11, 2016, 06:20:13 pm
Here's another scary thought: what happens in three years if Trump and his cronies think that they're going to get turfed out of office in 2020? (Or even in 2018 if they think they might lose the House or the Senate, though that's unlikely.) Trump has no respect for civil liberties, so does he start jailing his political opponents (like prospective Democratic candidates), jailing the press who cover him negatively, shooting protestors...
Well he's in office, a lot of people wrote that off as silly.

Not anymore.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 11, 2016, 08:16:08 pm
Here's an interesting little analysis I just did. I looked at the numbers as they currently are posted at The Green Papers (which aren't complete, but I doubt much would change), and decided to look at what would have happened if every state allocated its electoral votes proportionately. I looked at two methods: D'Hondt and Sainte-Laguë.

Under the D'Hondt method of allocation:

Mr. Trump: 268
Sec. Clinton: 267
Gov. Johnson: 2 (1 each from California and Texas)
Mr. McMullin: 1 (Utah)

Under the Sainte-Laguë method:

Sec. Clinton: 264
Mr. Trump: 262
Gov. Johnson: 10 (2 from California, 1 each from Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, New York, Ohio, and Texas)
Mr. McMullin: 1 (Utah)
Dr. Stein: 1 (California)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 11, 2016, 10:51:13 pm
Here's another scary thought: what happens in three years if Trump and his cronies think that they're going to get turfed out of office in 2020? (Or even in 2018 if they think they might lose the House or the Senate, though that's unlikely.) Trump has no respect for civil liberties, so does he start jailing his political opponents (like prospective Democratic candidates), jailing the press who cover him negatively, shooting protestors...
Well he's in office, a lot of people wrote that off as silly.

Not anymore.

Do I still sound ridiculous for making the Nazi comparisons?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 12, 2016, 12:46:28 am
Here's another scary thought: what happens in three years if Trump and his cronies think that they're going to get turfed out of office in 2020? (Or even in 2018 if they think they might lose the House or the Senate, though that's unlikely.) Trump has no respect for civil liberties, so does he start jailing his political opponents (like prospective Democratic candidates), jailing the press who cover him negatively, shooting protestors...
Well he's in office, a lot of people wrote that off as silly.

Not anymore.

Do I still sound ridiculous for making the Nazi comparisons?
I never said you did, Trump was the candidate endorsed by the KKK and worshiped by /pol. The Nazis declared Trump to be their Fuhrer because they saw the comparison!

Yes race definitely played a part in this campaign, not in isolation from economic and social problems but anybody who wants to hand wave off critics of Trump as silly billies who'll call a lamppost racist if it's painted white are either deluding themselves or sleazily gas-lighting the rest of us!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 12, 2016, 01:14:41 am
I just recall people on here saying I was being hysterical about it.

Just kind of seems to me like, second day of the Presidency, Pence could announce he's reforming the SS and the GOP in the senate and house would nod along and say what a wonderful conservative task force the SS was in World War II.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 12, 2016, 02:14:20 am
There was very similar speculation flying around about G.W. Bush ten years ago during his second term.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 12, 2016, 02:35:43 am
Every president or presidential candidate, at least in my lifetime, has been accused of being a fascist or the next Hitler. Obama, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and probably Bob Dole, Al Gore and John Kerry. The difference is that none of them pretended to not know who David Duke is instead of outright rejecting him, none of them suggested forcing Muslims to carry special identification or ran entirely on fear mongering. None of them were literally seig heiled on stage at their political conventions.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheUnknown on November 12, 2016, 03:11:01 am
Just came across this:  https://twitter.com/KStreetHipster/status/797250896619077632 (https://twitter.com/KStreetHipster/status/797250896619077632)

Quote
"Republicans control:
SCOTUS
Senate
House
President
34/50 Governors
68/99 state legislative chambers
Full control of 33 state legislatures"

"Republicans only need 5 more state legislatures to have 3/4ths of all states. Then they can pass all the constitutional amendments they want"

The midterms are going to be extremely important.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 12, 2016, 03:13:46 am
Every president or presidential candidate, at least in my lifetime, has been accused of being a fascist or the next Hitler. Obama, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and probably Bob Dole, Al Gore and John Kerry. The difference is that none of them pretended to not know who David Duke is instead of outright rejecting him, none of them suggested forcing Muslims to carry special identification or ran entirely on fear mongering. None of them were literally seig heiled on stage at their political conventions.
His racism and authoritarianism does attract that crowd. It doesn't mean he's capable of turning into the next Hitler despite their fantasies. Yes, he is going to make America a lot shittier place for anyone who is not a relatively well-off white male with no serious medical conditions if he and his handlers follow his rhetoric. Yes, he will escalate American military actions abroad and there is a nonzero chance that he will drive America into a war with Iran. Jailing American journalists and dissenters? I don't think he has that kind of hold over the Republican party and the justice system. It's not an impossibility but I'm not going to panic about it yet.

Just came across this:  https://twitter.com/KStreetHipster/status/797250896619077632 (https://twitter.com/KStreetHipster/status/797250896619077632)

Quote
"Republicans control:
SCOTUS
Senate
House
President
34/50 Governors
68/99 state legislative chambers
Full control of 33 state legislatures"

"Republicans only need 5 more state legislatures to have 3/4ths of all states. Then they can pass all the constitutional amendments they want"

The midterms are going to be extremely important.

This is actually a pretty fucking scary possibility.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 12, 2016, 04:20:29 am
Oh please, what's the worst thing that could happen? Christianity declared as the official religion of USA in the constitution thus outlawing gay marriage and any laws that violate the Bible?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 12, 2016, 05:45:11 am
I'm slightly less scared of that since there are fourteen states with lopsided Democratic majorities in their lower houses.

What I am scared of is that they're only one state away from forcing a convention. That convention could report out an amendment with no time limit on ratification, which would be a ticking time bomb so that if just four other states should happen to go to the Republicans (or their successors) at any time in the future, not necessarily concurrently, and even if it's just for two years with each... BOOM!
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 12, 2016, 06:19:29 am
On a slightly more lighthearted note.
 (http://theweek.com/speedreads/661335/newt-gingrich-admits-trump-probably-cant-mexico-pay-wall-but-great-campaign-device)
Quote
Two days after Donald Trump was elected president, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, an ardent Trump supporter, admitted the president-elect's promise to get Mexico to fund his proposed border wall may have just been "a campaign device." "He may not spend much time trying to get Mexico to pay for it," Gingrich said of a hypothetical border structure. "But it was a great campaign device."

Wonder how all the silly fucks who voted for it are digesting that.  ;D
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 12, 2016, 06:41:37 am
...Usually people don't admit that the campaign promises were just lies. There used to be repercussions from something like that.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 12, 2016, 07:00:30 am
...Usually people don't admit that the campaign promises were just lies. There used to be repercussions from something like that.

What repercussions? Trump's going to be President for four years, during which time the Republicans will hold the House and almost certainly the Senate. Their hold over state legislatures will make it very difficult for the Democrats to take them back for redistricting in 2020, so even if they take the Presidency that person will have a tough time getting anything through at any point in his or her term(s), and meanwhile they can shred Obama's "legacy" and put in place stuff that will be very difficult to get rid of.

EDIT:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
I certainly don't support the specific language Trump has used in every instance. But I think one thing that should be distinguished here is that the media is always is taking Trump literally. It never takes him seriously but it always takes him literally. I think a lot of the voters who vote for Trump take Trump seriously but not literally. So when they hear things like the Muslim comment or the wall comment, or things like that, the question is not are you going to build a wall like the Great Wall of China, or how exactly are you going to enforce these tests. What they hear is we're going to have a saner, more sensible immigration policy. We're going to try to figure out how do we strike the right balance between cost and benefits.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 12, 2016, 07:34:33 am
...Usually people don't admit that the campaign promises were just lies. There used to be repercussions from something like that.
They probably figure that the electorate didn't care that he was bullshitting all the way along the campaign trail so why should they care now?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 12, 2016, 12:11:07 pm
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
So because of one expression of what you labelled impotent rage you're fine and dandy with a system that actually favors some people over others. To prevent one angry voters fantasy of suppressing votes you are in favor of the absurdly lopsided Electoral college to say nothing of the rampant gerrymandering (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-is-actually-what-america-would-look-like-without-gerrymandering/) and active (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/15/group-accuses-mike-pence-of-voter-suppression-after-state-police-raid-registration-program-in-indiana/) voter (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/) suppressing (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/10/republicans_are_already_suppressing_minority_votes_all_over_america.html) favoring the Republican side that goes with it.

To stop one guys fantasy about stopping "the wrong people" from voting you give your blessing to One political party's and an entire political system geared to and actively preventing "the wrong people" from voting and watering down the votes of those who do.

All while tut tutting others for being elitist. Look in the bloody mirror!

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

Even with the rural midwestern states having a supposedly lopsided representation in electoral seats they would somehow still have been an irrelevance if Pennsylvania and North Carolina had voted according to form.  That's the real issue with your system, not Kansas having 6 electoral votes instead of 4.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheUnknown on November 12, 2016, 02:23:29 pm
https://mic.com/articles/159124/russia-says-it-was-in-contact-with-donald-trump-s-campaign-exposing-a-big-trump-lie (https://mic.com/articles/159124/russia-says-it-was-in-contact-with-donald-trump-s-campaign-exposing-a-big-trump-lie)

Quote
President-elect Donald Trump was adamant throughout his campaign that he had no connections with Russia.

But a Russian diplomat torched Trump's claim on Thursday, telling the Washington Post that top Russian officials were in contact with members of Trump's campaign orbit.

"I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives," Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told the Post.

Wow, I sure am shocked about this revelation./sarcasm

Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Random Gal on November 12, 2016, 02:24:55 pm
My family shared this link with me, thought it would be good for you to see.
An Open Letter to My Conservative Family (https://www.heatherrosewalters.com/new-blog/open-letter-to-conservatives)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 12, 2016, 05:30:03 pm
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
So because of one expression of what you labelled impotent rage you're fine and dandy with a system that actually favors some people over others. To prevent one angry voters fantasy of suppressing votes you are in favor of the absurdly lopsided Electoral college to say nothing of the rampant gerrymandering (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-is-actually-what-america-would-look-like-without-gerrymandering/) and active (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/15/group-accuses-mike-pence-of-voter-suppression-after-state-police-raid-registration-program-in-indiana/) voter (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/) suppressing (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/10/republicans_are_already_suppressing_minority_votes_all_over_america.html) favoring the Republican side that goes with it.

To stop one guys fantasy about stopping "the wrong people" from voting you give your blessing to One political party's and an entire political system geared to and actively preventing "the wrong people" from voting and watering down the votes of those who do.

All while tut tutting others for being elitist. Look in the bloody mirror!

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

Even with the rural midwestern states having a supposedly lopsided representation in electoral seats they would somehow still have been an irrelevance if Pennsylvania and North Carolina had voted according to form.  That's the real issue with your system, not Kansas having 6 electoral votes instead of 4.
I'm not the one throwing the term "elitist" around Conty and you are doing on the basis of a single frustrated forumite who wants to stop the "wrong" people from voting, yet you are giving your blessing that had the result it did because of a system that weights the votes in favor of one political party.

Yet I don't hear you calling Republicans elitist for what they actually do as opposed to wish for. Why the double standard?

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

I never made the argument that the electoral college was good when it helped the Democrats. I'm arguing on the basis of something you did, rather than didn't do which rather helps ground the whole thing in the real world. What you did was charge left wing people with being elitist because a singular left wing (in your opinion) person wanted to do to Republican rural voters the exact same thing that Republicans have been doing for years to Democrat urban voters. If it's wrong it's wrong yes?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 13, 2016, 12:56:47 am
I STILL remain amazed we're letting monkey-brained simpletons with family trees that more resemble family tumbleweeds decide our elections - I read that the electoral college was instituted and kept around to placate slave states.

So, really, it seems my evaluation had some basis. Namely, that this election's result rests squarely upon the pudgy shoulders of Appalachia and the South.

This has served as a political awakening for me - I will work toward consequences for these enablers of antiquated ideas and 1950s Nostalgia. California is one of the biggest economies, and we can - with the right laws and regulations - focus our trade and businesses into the total exclusion of the South / Appalachia and the Rust Belt from receiving our goods, services, food, and business. There are better and more productive markets we can focus on.



Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 13, 2016, 12:59:53 am
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/681/Ow_the_edge.jpg)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on November 13, 2016, 03:24:58 am
I STILL remain amazed we're letting monkey-brained simpletons with family trees that more resemble family tumbleweeds decide our elections - I read that the electoral college was instituted and kept around to placate slave states.

So, really, it seems my evaluation had some basis. Namely, that this election's result rests squarely upon the pudgy shoulders of Appalachia and the South.

This has served as a political awakening for me - I will work toward consequences for these enablers of antiquated ideas and 1950s Nostalgia. California is one of the biggest economies, and we can - with the right laws and regulations - focus our trade and businesses into the total exclusion of the South / Appalachia and the Rust Belt from receiving our goods, services, food, and business. There are better and more productive markets we can focus on.

I'm going to be bluntly honest here - you are embarrassing everyone around you.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: niam2023 on November 13, 2016, 03:57:19 am
Eh, whatever - whether people feel that way is not my concern, but I've decided not to go forward with that particular plan anyway.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 13, 2016, 04:28:57 am
http://www.religiousmind.com/2016/11/pope-francis-says-he-has-lost-faith-in.html

Pope Francis on Christians who supported Trump: they're not Christians.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 13, 2016, 08:07:26 am
I STILL remain amazed we're letting monkey-brained simpletons with family trees that more resemble family tumbleweeds decide our elections - I read that the electoral college was instituted and kept around to placate slave states.

So, really, it seems my evaluation had some basis. Namely, that this election's result rests squarely upon the pudgy shoulders of Appalachia and the South.

This has served as a political awakening for me - I will work toward consequences for these enablers of antiquated ideas and 1950s Nostalgia. California is one of the biggest economies, and we can - with the right laws and regulations - focus our trade and businesses into the total exclusion of the South / Appalachia and the Rust Belt from receiving our goods, services, food, and business. There are better and more productive markets we can focus on.
niam, the US election wasn't just decided on the people who did vote. It was also decided by the people who didn't. Plenty of former Bernie Bros voted independent and plenty of people who came out to vote for Obama didn't this time around.

Seriously, you don't have to like banjos, hick-hop, monster trucks or baked raccoon but I don't know if your plan to exclude these folks would have actually delivered the Democrats to victory. 49% of white college graduates voted Trump (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=1) remember?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheContrarian on November 13, 2016, 09:10:58 am
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
So because of one expression of what you labelled impotent rage you're fine and dandy with a system that actually favors some people over others. To prevent one angry voters fantasy of suppressing votes you are in favor of the absurdly lopsided Electoral college to say nothing of the rampant gerrymandering (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-is-actually-what-america-would-look-like-without-gerrymandering/) and active (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/15/group-accuses-mike-pence-of-voter-suppression-after-state-police-raid-registration-program-in-indiana/) voter (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/) suppressing (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/10/republicans_are_already_suppressing_minority_votes_all_over_america.html) favoring the Republican side that goes with it.

To stop one guys fantasy about stopping "the wrong people" from voting you give your blessing to One political party's and an entire political system geared to and actively preventing "the wrong people" from voting and watering down the votes of those who do.

All while tut tutting others for being elitist. Look in the bloody mirror!

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

Even with the rural midwestern states having a supposedly lopsided representation in electoral seats they would somehow still have been an irrelevance if Pennsylvania and North Carolina had voted according to form.  That's the real issue with your system, not Kansas having 6 electoral votes instead of 4.
I'm not the one throwing the term "elitist" around Conty and you are doing on the basis of a single frustrated forumite who wants to stop the "wrong" people from voting, yet you are giving your blessing that had the result it did because of a system that weights the votes in favor of one political party.

Yet I don't hear you calling Republicans elitist for what they actually do as opposed to wish for. Why the double standard?

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

I never made the argument that the electoral college was good when it helped the Democrats. I'm arguing on the basis of something you did, rather than didn't do which rather helps ground the whole thing in the real world. What you did was charge left wing people with being elitist because a singular left wing (in your opinion) person wanted to do to Republican rural voters the exact same thing that Republicans have been doing for years to Democrat urban voters. If it's wrong it's wrong yes?

1. He's not alone in that sentiment.  Just look at all the butthurt whinging from millennials after the brexit vote when they discovered that the over-45s had a distinct preference for leaving. 

And that time, not only did they want to disenfranchise and probably euthanise a whole bunch of old people who had the AUDACITY to vote the other way, but also wanted to re-run/ignore the whole thing after they lost the POPULAR VOTE.

The left does this shit constantly for fuck's sake.

2. Given that between California and the Northeast, the Democrats have an almost unassailable advantage built into the electoral college from the start, it's a bit fucking sad that you have to cry about a few tiny rural states that have statistically no bearing on the final result. 

If I were a Democrat, i'd be taking a long look at how we managed to throw away 20 electoral votes in a single supposedly safe blue state rather than trying to tip the balance further to the blue side by stripping the odd elector from some irrelevant farm states.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 13, 2016, 11:16:13 am
Stop it, Contrarian, you're almost making sense.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: suri on November 13, 2016, 01:22:48 pm
1. He's not alone in that sentiment.  Just look at all the butthurt whinging from millennials after the brexit vote when they discovered that the over-45s had a distinct preference for leaving. 

And that time, not only did they want to disenfranchise and probably euthanise a whole bunch of old people who had the AUDACITY to vote the other way, but also wanted to re-run/ignore the whole thing after they lost the POPULAR VOTE.

The left does this shit constantly for fuck's sake.

Yes, that behavior is obnoxious. On the other hand, at least in the US, the right doesn't just talk obnoxiously about disenfranchising demographics that tend to vote for their political opponents, they actually do so.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 13, 2016, 03:06:11 pm
Hey Conty, you do know that Clinton won the popular vote right? I don't agree with niam saying "those people" shouldn't have the right to vote. But I definitely get frustration of people who know that there are people who have more of a vote by virtue of the real estate they're living on.

This narrative of "backward-ass rural hillbilly types stealing the election from wise benevolent urban Democrats" is horseshit when you consider that it was electoral votes from previously safe blue seats in the north and northeast that swung the result.
Maybe, but Clinton still got more votes the last count, (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote/) and the name of the howler monkey that came up with proportional representation escapes me.

Direct question  Contrarian, is it just to give Red State areas effectively more of a vote than blue state areas? If so, why? Shouldn't be too much of a stretch given that espousing your opinion is your chief talent!

See, I've been hearing a whole lot about Democrats and whoever the left is this week being elitist but those cheering the outcome of this election, like you, are championing a system that gives elite privileges to some voters but not others.

Funny that.

Generally no, but seeing that the objection to it here seems to carry with it more than a hint of wanting to disenfranchise voters just because they voted the "wrong" way, i'd say it's a necessary evil in this case.
So because of one expression of what you labelled impotent rage you're fine and dandy with a system that actually favors some people over others. To prevent one angry voters fantasy of suppressing votes you are in favor of the absurdly lopsided Electoral college to say nothing of the rampant gerrymandering (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-is-actually-what-america-would-look-like-without-gerrymandering/) and active (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/15/group-accuses-mike-pence-of-voter-suppression-after-state-police-raid-registration-program-in-indiana/) voter (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/) suppressing (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/10/republicans_are_already_suppressing_minority_votes_all_over_america.html) favoring the Republican side that goes with it.

To stop one guys fantasy about stopping "the wrong people" from voting you give your blessing to One political party's and an entire political system geared to and actively preventing "the wrong people" from voting and watering down the votes of those who do.

All while tut tutting others for being elitist. Look in the bloody mirror!

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

Even with the rural midwestern states having a supposedly lopsided representation in electoral seats they would somehow still have been an irrelevance if Pennsylvania and North Carolina had voted according to form.  That's the real issue with your system, not Kansas having 6 electoral votes instead of 4.
I'm not the one throwing the term "elitist" around Conty and you are doing on the basis of a single frustrated forumite who wants to stop the "wrong" people from voting, yet you are giving your blessing that had the result it did because of a system that weights the votes in favor of one political party.

Yet I don't hear you calling Republicans elitist for what they actually do as opposed to wish for. Why the double standard?

Oddly enough I didn't see you whinging when it was thought *due to that exact same electoral college* all Hillary needed to do was win her safe consituencies in California and the Northeast.

I never made the argument that the electoral college was good when it helped the Democrats. I'm arguing on the basis of something you did, rather than didn't do which rather helps ground the whole thing in the real world. What you did was charge left wing people with being elitist because a singular left wing (in your opinion) person wanted to do to Republican rural voters the exact same thing that Republicans have been doing for years to Democrat urban voters. If it's wrong it's wrong yes?

1. He's not alone in that sentiment.  Just look at all the butthurt whinging from millennials after the brexit vote when they discovered that the over-45s had a distinct preference for leaving. 

And that time, not only did they want to disenfranchise and probably euthanise a whole bunch of old people who had the AUDACITY to vote the other way, but also wanted to re-run/ignore the whole thing after they lost the POPULAR VOTE.

The left does this shit constantly for fuck's sake.

2. Given that between California and the Northeast, the Democrats have an almost unassailable advantage built into the electoral college from the start, it's a bit fucking sad that you have to cry about a few tiny rural states that have statistically no bearing on the final result. 

If I were a Democrat, i'd be taking a long look at how we managed to throw away 20 electoral votes in a single supposedly safe blue state rather than trying to tip the balance further to the blue side by stripping the odd elector from some irrelevant farm states.
Again you're complaining about a sentiment while ignoring actual voter suppression. It's like equating someone who types DIAF to a sociopath who actually sets fire to homeless people.

Harping on about obnoxious sentiments from people who'll never enact them while giving your blessing to obnoxious  actions from people because they share your values is rank hypocrisy.

And yeah, the electoral colleges problems go beyond a few rural states. Electors from Washington State have repeatedly said that they'll never elect Clinton and fuck what the voters want. (http://www.vox.com/2016/11/6/13540504/electors-electoral-college-washington) So-again a system that actually disenfranchises citizens and the worst those recalcitrant Washington State Electoral College voters can expect is a thousand dollar fine with their vote still carried! Other states have smaller fines and some allow Electoral College voters to do whatever the hell they want.

Something, something lefty elites complaining about senior citizens and farmers....Just preempting your response.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on November 14, 2016, 02:35:13 am
Well it looks like our new overlords in the Alt Right are accepting their victory with humility and grace:

Quote
In a post on Wednesday [Daily Stormer’s Nazi-in-chief Andrew  Anglin] pointed his readers to dozens of tweets from Hillary supporters publicly declaring themselves scared by Trump’s win.

“You can troll these people and definitely get some of them to kill themselves,” Anglin happily tells his readers.

Just be like “it’s the only way you can prove to the racists that Hillary was right all along.”

"“Mass Suicides After Trump Victory” would be a headline the media would play up, but all it would do would demoralize the left even further.

GOGOGOGOGOGOGO!"
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 14, 2016, 09:29:49 am
I can't wait until the worship of their demagogue just ends up disappointing them in the end.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 14, 2016, 02:48:45 pm
I certainly hope he disappoints them in the end. These are the kind of people who have their heads so deep into the sand that they'll believe him when he starts scapegoating everyone else for his failings.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 14, 2016, 03:06:06 pm
Yeah but once people realize that he's not going to bring the jobs back, that the Wall is a pipe dream, that there's not going to be a mass deportation force, that he can't change anything about Washington politics, that it would be a huge mess just to dismantle Obama care. I have a feeling that not so many people are going to turn out to vote for him next time.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 14, 2016, 03:41:36 pm
Yeah but once people realize that he's not going to bring the jobs back, that the Wall is a pipe dream, that there's not going to be a mass deportation force, that he can't change anything about Washington politics, that it would be a huge mess just to dismantle Obama care. I have a feeling that not so many people are going to turn out to vote for him next time.
Thing is, between now and then the Repugs will be fucking with the electoral machinery to prevent a loss whatever happens.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Vypernight on November 14, 2016, 04:09:08 pm
Just a hypothetical question, but let's say Trump in his 4 years really did improve things without taking anyone's rights away and starting any wars.  If he ran again (and his opponent wasn't Sanders or another progressive), would you vote for him in the reelection?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 14, 2016, 04:27:56 pm
Not a chance in hell.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 14, 2016, 04:36:10 pm
Someone mentioned elsewhere (I think) that the more Democrats talk about how Clinton got the "popular vote" and how they would have needed just a few more votes the more likely it is that the next Democrat candidate is just more of the same.

4 years from now they'll think that Trump was just a fluke and that it can't happen again.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: The_Queen on November 14, 2016, 08:38:18 pm
Just a hypothetical question, but let's say Trump in his 4 years really did improve things without taking anyone's rights away and starting any wars.  If he ran again (and his opponent wasn't Sanders or another progressive), would you vote for him in the reelection?

I would. A racist candidate is disqualified from earning my vote. I thought most Americans felt this way, but guess I was wrong. I have accepted Trump will be president, but I'm still at the depression stage of grief that half of Americans can accept racism.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 14, 2016, 08:42:25 pm
Actually name an ism that's bad and a quarter of America has accepted it.  And that quarter is enough to get an absolute incompatant into office.

Ironbite-oh and the answer is no, I'd never vote for Trump.  Ever.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 14, 2016, 11:24:21 pm
Frankly, given the question hinges on Herr Trumps possible future competency or more likely lack of it, I don't think you need worry.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Skybison on November 15, 2016, 10:51:24 am
If Donald Trump turned out to be the exact oppossite of what he acts like, then sure I might support him.  Odds seem very low however.  The man has a long hstory of racism, sexual assualt, recklessness, fraud, vindictive cruelty, ignorence and just about every other terrible thing you can name.  I don't see the leopard changing it's spots now that it has more power.

Also the cartoon Adventure Time accurately predicted how the election would go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=450y8jasHpQ
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 16, 2016, 12:20:56 am
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/16/us/politics/trump-transition.html

And Trump's stumbling out of the damn gate. Apparently he had no idea and never bothered to find out that his transition team had to replace the entire White House staff.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 16, 2016, 02:35:45 am
...Didn't anyone brief him? When he became the Republican candidate didn't his party tell him how to do this? You might convince me that Trump would not listen to instructions but the rest of his team has no excuse for this ...If it's even true.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 16, 2016, 02:46:18 am
...Didn't anyone brief him? When he became the Republican candidate didn't his party tell him how to do this? You might convince me that Trump would not listen to instructions but the rest of his team has no excuse for this ...If it's even true.

That assumes he could be bothered to listen to the rest of his team.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 16, 2016, 02:57:59 am
...Didn't anyone brief him? When he became the Republican candidate didn't his party tell him how to do this? You might convince me that Trump would not listen to instructions but the rest of his team has no excuse for this ...If it's even true.
It's also been reported that he didn't want to jinx his victory chances by planning the transition beforehand. My guess is that his staff didn't believe they could win and didn't bother pressuring him on this.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Id82 on November 16, 2016, 11:01:58 am
Well good news is Ben Carson turned down a cabinet position in Trump's white house stating the reason that he felt he wouldn't be qualified for such a position.
Then why the fuck did you run for president Carson, why did you run for president?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on November 16, 2016, 03:09:28 pm
I get the feeling that Carson, like Trump had no idea how much work goes into being President or working for the President before starting talks about joining the Cabinet. When he was told how much work it would be, he probably decided it wasn't what he wanted to sign up for.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 16, 2016, 04:04:56 pm
Meanwhile in Finland... (http://blogit.kansanuutiset.fi/toimittaja-testaa/hesburgerin-tyontekija-haastattelussa-kohun-takana-oli-transfobinen-vihakampanja/) (The story is in Finnish)

The day after the US presidential election someone makes a Tweet in his personal account: "20 minutes before the closing time a dude steps in with a Make America Great Again cap in his head. I wanted to spit in his burger." The account is anonymous except the owner's first name, Eeli.

A couple of days later someone posts a thread about the tweet to Ylilauta, the Finnish version of 4chan, asking for help in reporting Eeli to his employer. The board members get to work and successfully dig out Eeli's full name, employer and background. He is a transman working in a Hesburger (Finnish fast food chain) restaurant so they start spreading his phone number and dead name around outing him publicly as a transsexual. Three people tweet to Hesburger complaining about his tweet and use his dead name instead of his current, official one.

Sebastian Tynkkynen, the chair of the Finns/True Finns/Perussuomalaiset party's youth organization tweets asking about sources. He makes a post about this in Facebook whining about feminists' double standards and uses naturally Eeli's dead name. He also claims all the info is openly linked to Eeli's twitter account.

Meanwhile Eeli, his friends and people who made supporting tweets to him are targeted by a transphobic hate campaign. Eeli changes his phone number and applies for security measures for his personal information in the magistrate. Hesburger and Eeli terminate his employment contract with a mutual agreement causing Ylilauta to celebrate Hesburger "firing" him.

A tabloid writes a story about this using only Tynkkynen as their source with no mention about the hate campaign. He says he published the story in Facebook because Hesburger didn't respond to his tweets. Without all the details the tolerant feminist conspiracy theoretics would distort the truth so he had to share everything. He also says that an employee has to think about how they represent their employer in the social media.

The tabloid is notified about Tynkkynen's lies and they add a small notice to their story that Tynkkynen's claims about the information being publicly available can't be confirmed.

The internet trolls acting like sociopathic assholes is one thing and Finnish trolls worshiping Trump is depressing. A politician turning this into a publicity stunt is fucking despicable.

Everything you need to know about Tynkkynen as a person: before his political career he was known for crapping his pants in Big Brother and he is a "former" homosexual thanks to conversion therapy. He is a shameless douche whose political strategy involves being as outrageous as possible.

Edit: Something kept bugging me and I realized have to correct myself: I'm pretty sure Eeli identifies as nonbinary instead of FtM trans based on the some details. Eeli is a male name and Finnish pronouns are gender neutral so I didn't think about this at first but the story uses a term directly translated as "other gendered" instead of the more common "transsexual".
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 16, 2016, 05:56:47 pm
I chatted about that on FB today. The people comparing this "spit-gate" to stuff that the racists have said that has been protested or that one church employee who lost her job because of what she said about refugees are missing the point.

Eeli said that they momentarily felt like spitting in some guys food but they did not do it nor did they imply that they ever would. A bunch of racists have not only said that they at some point wished to to assault or kill refugees, they have said that they aim to do so in the future. They have made direct threats. And that church employee (aside from making similar threat about spitting in people's food) also threatened to burn down the church, was given a warning and repeatedly made those racist comments on the net despite promising to stop them.

Eeli made one comment and has been a victim of a witch hunt ever since. That article also makes clear that for some of the Ylilauta (Literally a Finnish language 4Chan. Same memes and similar layout and all) members Eeli being trans was the main reason they were part of the mob hunting them AND they were hoping to make their victim commit suicide. ...And they referred the Holocaust and stated that all trans people and anyone with a mental illness should be killed off.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 17, 2016, 03:49:21 am
That nuclear option of eliminating filibuster in Senate? Despite the Republican majority it is not a given that it happens. Lindsey Graham of all people told reporters he would vote against such action "in a heartbeat" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lindsey-graham-vows-to-oppose-any-effort-to-blow-up-the-filibuster_us_582b870ae4b01d8a014b1ac4). He only needs two other Republican senators behind him and they will be able to help the Democrats to block it.

Normally Republicans unite behind the selected leader without too much trouble. This time there seems to be a real possibility of a civil war within the party. Of course, this being the Republicans, it would not surprise me at all if Graham and any allies of his will fall in line in the end.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 17, 2016, 01:27:29 pm
Since the election's over, is it okay if I start a new thread about Trump's presidency?
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: TheUnknown on November 17, 2016, 03:31:28 pm
https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/799079032499343360 (https://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/799079032499343360)

Quote
Trump surrogates are already citing Japanese internment camps from WW II as "precedent" for Muslim registry

George Takei also tweeted about it:

https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/799249215809523712 (https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/799249215809523712)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 22, 2016, 03:11:49 pm
Someone brought up Tulsi Gabbard as a potential leader for the American liberal movement in this thread. I happened to bump into this little nugget: when it comes to Islam she has more in common with Trump than the liberals (http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/curious-islamophobic-politics-dem-congressmember-tulsi-gabbard). She is also friendly with the Indian Hindu nationalist BJP party due to a large part of her constituency supporting them and has fought against US condemning BJP supporters' violence against the Muslim minority in India. Warren's hawkish approach to the Palestinian conflict pales when compared to her islamophobia.

Quote
Appearing with Fox's Neil Cavuto last week, she lashed out at the White House for holding an extremism summit with Muslim Americans, saying it's a “diversion from what our real focus needs to be. And that focus is on that Islamic extremist threat.” She criticized Obama for saying that “poverty, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to education” is contributing to radicalization. “They are not fueled by materialistic motivation, it's actually a theological, this radical Islamic ideology,” she said, throwing red meat to Fox viewers.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 22, 2016, 06:02:44 pm
Someone brought up Tulsi Gabbard as a potential leader for the American liberal movement in this thread. I happened to bump into this little nugget: when it comes to Islam she has more in common with Trump than the liberals (http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/curious-islamophobic-politics-dem-congressmember-tulsi-gabbard). She is also friendly with the Indian Hindu nationalist BJP party due to a large part of her constituency supporting them and has fought against US condemning BJP supporters' violence against the Muslim minority in India. Warren's hawkish approach to the Palestinian conflict pales when compared to her islamophobia.

Quote
Appearing with Fox's Neil Cavuto last week, she lashed out at the White House for holding an extremism summit with Muslim Americans, saying it's a “diversion from what our real focus needs to be. And that focus is on that Islamic extremist threat.” She criticized Obama for saying that “poverty, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to education” is contributing to radicalization. “They are not fueled by materialistic motivation, it's actually a theological, this radical Islamic ideology,” she said, throwing red meat to Fox viewers.

Is Rep. Gabbard perfect? No. Is Sen. Warren perfect? No. Is Rep Ellison perfect? No. Is Sen. Turner perfect? No. Is Sen. Sanders perfect? No. I could go on, but you get the point.

Are they better than corporatist Democrats? Yes.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9n0rgawdY

Alt-right types explaining how women just want to have strong men and pregnancies.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 23, 2016, 02:44:26 am
I know that this is off-topic but since it as mentioned, the thing that most annoys me when someone tries to explain that "all women want X" is not that it's usually said by guys. The most annoying thing is that it's a generalization and even I (a guy) can't make such generalization on men because of how many kinds of men there are and though I understand women even less than I understand other men I assume that women are similarly complex so statements like this are more likely to be false than true.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: dpareja on November 23, 2016, 02:55:06 am
I know that this is off-topic but since it as mentioned, the thing that most annoys me when someone tries to explain that "all women want X" is not that it's usually said by guys. The most annoying thing is that it's a generalization and even I (a guy) can't make such generalization on men because of how many kinds of men there are and though I understand women even less than I understand other men I assume that women are similarly complex so statements like this are more likely to be false than true.

It's sort-of off-topic, but relevant because these are the sorts of people who are now openly looking to have influence in the Trump administration.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Askold on November 23, 2016, 03:13:06 am
Like Roosh V who is now campaigning for the legalization of rape... He claims that now that Trump won it legitimizes everything he has been saying and means (among other things) that rape, yes I wasn't joking, should be legal if you do it on your own property.

...So kinda like Castle doctrine but the victim might survive.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: ironbite on November 23, 2016, 03:34:03 am
....I wanna throw up
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 23, 2016, 04:00:44 am
Someone brought up Tulsi Gabbard as a potential leader for the American liberal movement in this thread. I happened to bump into this little nugget: when it comes to Islam she has more in common with Trump than the liberals (http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/curious-islamophobic-politics-dem-congressmember-tulsi-gabbard). She is also friendly with the Indian Hindu nationalist BJP party due to a large part of her constituency supporting them and has fought against US condemning BJP supporters' violence against the Muslim minority in India. Warren's hawkish approach to the Palestinian conflict pales when compared to her islamophobia.

Quote
Appearing with Fox's Neil Cavuto last week, she lashed out at the White House for holding an extremism summit with Muslim Americans, saying it's a “diversion from what our real focus needs to be. And that focus is on that Islamic extremist threat.” She criticized Obama for saying that “poverty, lack of access to jobs, lack of access to education” is contributing to radicalization. “They are not fueled by materialistic motivation, it's actually a theological, this radical Islamic ideology,” she said, throwing red meat to Fox viewers.

Is Rep. Gabbard perfect? No. Is Sen. Warren perfect? No. Is Rep Ellison perfect? No. Is Sen. Turner perfect? No. Is Sen. Sanders perfect? No. I could go on, but you get the point.

Are they better than corporatist Democrats? Yes.

Warren's hawkishness doesn't bother me as much as it is pretty much in line with the US foreign policy in general so just status quo on the Israel-Palestine issue. I threw her name in to point out that this is on a different level. Gifford condemns religious violence except when it's against Muslims and gets her panties on a bunch when Obama tries to have a dialogue with the American Muslims at which point she goes to Fox news to spew her hate. There is no sugarcoating it no matter how good she is on economical and other social issues: supporting her for any leadership position is spitting in the eye of the American Muslim minority and giving her any power over the US foreign policy would be a serious mistake. I'm not calling for ideological purity: I'm saying that she has a serious fucking problem with one of the most important questions the Western civilization is facing at the moment.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 23, 2016, 03:26:01 pm
Bernie Sanders just gave some insightful comments about identity politics and the Democratic Party:

(https://i.sli.mg/VoqBXN.png)
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on November 23, 2016, 04:02:01 pm
The quote omits the full context: (https://newrepublic.com/article/138921/bernie-sanders-meant-say-identity-politics)

Quote
The trouble had begun when Sanders—who was promoting his book, Our Revolution—entertained a written question from a woman named Rebecca who said, “I want to be the second Latina senator in U.S. history. Any tips?”

Sanders began his response, captured on a smartphone camera, with a warning: “Let me respond to the question in a way that the questioner may not be happy with.” And then:

It goes without saying that as we fight to end all forms of discrimination, as we fight to bring more and more women into the political process—Latinas, African-Americans, Native Americans—all of that is enormously important, and count me in as somebody who wants to see that happen.

So far, so good ...

But it is not good enough for somebody to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina. Vote for me.” That is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country and is going to take on big-money interests.

And then, after backing up to stress the need for diversity in politics—“We need 50 women in the Senate. We need more African-Americans.”

Sanders is not dismissing identity politics. He is reminding that it's not the only dimension of the political struggle and the economical dimension with its class struggle should not be forgotten. These are not mutually exclusive approaches; on the contrary they are connected and ignoring either one is detrimental to building an inclusive society.
Title: Re: National Elections Thread
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 23, 2016, 04:19:31 pm
The quote omits the full context: (https://newrepublic.com/article/138921/bernie-sanders-meant-say-identity-politics)

Quote
The trouble had begun when Sanders—who was promoting his book, Our Revolution—entertained a written question from a woman named Rebecca who said, “I want to be the second Latina senator in U.S. history. Any tips?”

Sanders began his response, captured on a smartphone camera, with a warning: “Let me respond to the question in a way that the questioner may not be happy with.” And then:

It goes without saying that as we fight to end all forms of discrimination, as we fight to bring more and more women into the political process—Latinas, African-Americans, Native Americans—all of that is enormously important, and count me in as somebody who wants to see that happen.

So far, so good ...

But it is not good enough for somebody to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina. Vote for me.” That is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country and is going to take on big-money interests.

And then, after backing up to stress the need for diversity in politics—“We need 50 women in the Senate. We need more African-Americans.”

Sanders is not dismissing identity politics. He is reminding that it's not the only dimension of the political struggle and the economical dimension with its class struggle should not be forgotten. These are not mutually exclusive approaches; on the contrary they are connected and ignoring either one is detrimental to building an inclusive society.

I never meant to imply he was. Even without the context, what I took away from it is that he was saying the Democrats shouldn't focus on identity politics to the detriment of everything else. Then again, I can understand why my snippet might be misleading. Next time, I'll post the full context as well.