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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 02, 2017, 08:31:10 pm

Title: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 02, 2017, 08:31:10 pm
Some dood on reddit (https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6wzkac/yes_antifa_is_the_moral_equivalent_of_neonazis/dmbvynu/) has found incontrovertible evidence (http://imgur.com/a/6tKBb) of a soooper sneaky plot by the Elders of Antifa to compare everybody to Hitler until they cry!
(http://i.imgur.com/VBrDy2w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dIcayO3.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/lU9lE2m.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/SYC1Ncw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NFiFyx6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0NyBcYF.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/QxWRgyT.jpg)

INCONTROVERTIBLE!(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-f4y3b_rugXk/Uw9sFmrsicI/AAAAAAAAAa4/PhOtLAztIW0/s1600/2014-02-04_00001.jpg)

Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: ironbite on September 02, 2017, 08:53:24 pm
SHUT IT DOWN!  SHUT IT DOWN!  PUT ALL THE JEWS, ROMANI, HOMOSEXUALS AND BROWN PEOPLE IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND ENACT THE FINAL SOLUTION!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: niam2023 on September 03, 2017, 12:09:34 am
WE CAN'T YET! HIMMLER IS STILL FUCKING AROUND IN TIBET!!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 03, 2017, 12:17:24 am
I love that the coffee stains are still wet.

They tried to forge the papers to look older&used but couldn't even wait for the coffee to dry.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 03, 2017, 04:44:56 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 03, 2017, 06:02:07 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 03, 2017, 07:33:34 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: ironbite on September 03, 2017, 08:23:51 pm
Well no but we kinda had a whole world war about why being a Nazi is bad.

Ironbite-and I don't really think Nazis are peaceful protesters by any stretch.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 03, 2017, 10:08:48 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?

One dead in Charlottesville, two dead in Portland, I don't remember how many dead from that one shooting in Oklahoma, can we please be done pretending the people at these rallies are peaceful?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 03, 2017, 10:22:22 pm
Well no but we kinda had a whole world war about why being a Nazi is bad.

And it was the Nazis who started that war. We can't ignore that little detail.

Ironbite-and I don't really think Nazis are peaceful protesters by any stretch.

Do you think Antifa only attack Nazis?

What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?

One dead in Charlottesville, two dead in Portland, I don't remember how many dead from that one shooting in Oklahoma, can we please be done pretending the people at these rallies are peaceful?

I'm going to ask you a similar question: do you think the Antifa only protest the alt-right?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 03, 2017, 10:36:22 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 03, 2017, 10:45:43 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 03, 2017, 10:46:22 pm
Yes, for the reason, See: Nazis.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 03, 2017, 11:10:41 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.

They didn't in Berkeley and they held back in Charlottesville too. You want people not to take preemptive action against Nazis, get the cops to make sure we all know the rule of law is in effect and applies to everyone-otherwise, don't blame people if they take the law into their own hands!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 03, 2017, 11:36:42 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.

They didn't in Berkeley and they held back in Charlottesville too. You want people not to take preemptive action against Nazis, get the cops to make sure we all know the rule of law is in effect and applies to everyone-otherwise, don't blame people if they take the law into their own hands!

Antifa were the aggressors at Berkeley. Didn't you read the article?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 03, 2017, 11:43:21 pm
"The" article, what article?

Besides which, red herring. The cops weren't doing anything.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 03, 2017, 11:54:19 pm
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Wasn't really pre-emptive considering that the "Unite the right" fellas were doing drive by shootings and attacked a church before there was any violence from the counter protestors.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Art Vandelay on September 04, 2017, 12:15:09 am
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.
Actually, the cops did the best they could with what they had. Crowd control, especially with something like Charlottesville, where the cops are undermanned, undertrained and absolutely fucked if the crowd gets properly violent, is less about stopping them and more about containing and minimising the damage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 12:23:10 am
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.
Actually, the cops did the best they could with what they had. Crowd control, especially with something like Charlottesville, where the cops are undermanned, undertrained and absolutely fucked if the crowd gets properly violent, is less about stopping them and more about containing and minimising the damage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg
If the best they had was letting a kid get beat repeatedly with metal poles a few metres from a police station then their best isn't good enough.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 04, 2017, 12:35:23 am
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Wasn't really pre-emptive considering that the "Unite the right" fellas were doing drive by shootings and attacked a church before there was any violence from the counter protestors.

I wasn't talking about Charlottesville. Where did you get the impression that I was?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 04, 2017, 01:14:17 am
Ya know, I could've sworn that the 40s taught us that the only use we have for Nazis is target practice.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 04, 2017, 01:20:14 am

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Well, let me put it this way. Nazis and the alt-right have killed before and they are probably going to kill again. Preemptive strikes are a good way to stop them from getting the chance to kill more people. From a moral standpoint, preemptive strikes are a good idea and fully justified when you're dealing with killers.

Because, let me remind you, these people have killed, are killing, and will kill. They are killing people. Name one person dead due to ANTIFA. Go on, just one.

Also, in response to your other question, yes, because people who aren't neo-Nazis or members of the alt-right tend not to show up at these rallies.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 04, 2017, 01:25:53 am
Ooh! Here's an interesting question: what kind of pre-emptive strike?

Cause so far counter protestors have done mainly non-violent stuff or on few occasions used non-lethal force.

Nazis are advocating genocide and have killed a lot of people and yes, this includes stuff after 1945. If the pre-emptive stuff is denying them platform to preach hate then I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 01:46:11 am
I wasn't talking about Charlottesville. Where did you get the impression that I was?
DI-RECT QUESTION Lana, didn't you just pepper me with a bunch of direct questions in response to what I said about Charlottesville?

Specifically, Charlottesville! You know, the town with the great stonking statue of the pro-slavery guy people have been getting cranky about.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 04, 2017, 02:12:09 am
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 04, 2017, 02:14:37 am
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

You're right. Let's just let Nazis keep killing people.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 04, 2017, 02:24:56 am
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

You're right. Let's just let Nazis keep killing people.

Killing is not speech, nor is it a thought, nor is it a freedom.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 04, 2017, 02:47:39 am
If you debate an idea, you imply it is worth considering, worth debating. If you allow rallies where chants of "Jews will not replace us" are shouted, you imply that it is an okay opinion to have, and thereby normalize it. If you normalize it, people will stop being horrified at it. The edges near to it will gravitate towards it. And they will recruit more nazis. They will grow their ranks. And then we have WW2 era germany all over again. Nip. It. In. The. Fucking. Bud.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 04, 2017, 03:10:07 am
What I am against is the use of state force to shut down speech. What I am also against is allowing speech to go unrebutted.

EDIT: As I've put it elsewhere:

What I don't want is for free speech to be eroded to the point where harsh but legitimate criticism (for instance, pointing out the egregious misdeeds of various religions or members thereof) is on the border between allowable and illegal speech, because it could be taken by some to be a justification for violent behaviour.

In general, I'm opposed to hate speech laws because I think they border on thoughtcrime.

I support restricting speech on the basis of copyright, trademark, libel, slander (with truth as an absolute defence for libel and slander), and direct calls for violence or speech that would reasonably lead to an immediate threat of harm (this is where the old, tired "fire in a crowded theatre" line falls, because that is liable to incite a riot which would cause harm), but not on a broader, more amorphous notion of "hate speech." (So, as I've seen it put, given that we do accept* all of those restrictions, at this point we're just quibbling over the details.)

I support the right of people to say what they will, within the above bounds, without fear of governmental sanction, because I want that right--and other rights--to be there to protect me against governmental action when I need them to.

*Well, most of us; I think Queen has said some things about copyright.

--

I don't like how those groups use their rights, but I also want to be able to use those same rights when a majority--even a vast majority--of society dislikes how I might exercise them.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 03:49:00 am
I get what you're saying dpareja, my problem isn't with speech but rather action. If the gamergatin', alt-righting, crypto Nazi frog people come into your town I'm strongly in favour of protesting against them but only taking violent action if they do so themselves and that ain't to stop anyone's speech. It's to stop themselves and others from getting run over.

It's worth remembering that the alt right are strongly against arguing in good faith, remember these are the same people who made the document in the OP. They are the folks behind "free bleeding" and gamergate, I think it's worth making a counterargument to people sitting on the fence who might be listening to them but not to them directly or mocking them mercilessly if they pretend to argue but "arguing" or "debating" is pointless with people who won't argue in good faith-as our old forumite Paragon proved. These guys don't care about the truth, most of them aren't even pretending to anymore.

So yeah, I'm not giving all Antifa a free pass to cosh all right wingers (or people they think are right wingers) forever but I have absolutely no problem with them defending themselves or even taking preemptive action with an armed enemy who've come with every intention of coshing them-at the least. If someone does just want to debate the finer points of Fascism with them then I'd say uncool if they just popped them then and there. If however they get into fisticuffs with a bunch of armed right wingers who've come to fuck them up, well that's fair.

I can't get too worked up about the rights of Fascists, they want to take away the rights of me and the people I care about. If the ACLU and similar folks want to stand up for all speech OK. Good for them but I'm not about to stand up for the speech of Fascists because it boils down to "gas that lefty who's typing this".
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Art Vandelay on September 04, 2017, 03:49:48 am
If you debate an idea, you imply it is worth considering, worth debating. If you allow rallies where chants of "Jews will not replace us" are shouted, you imply that it is an okay opinion to have, and thereby normalize it. If you normalize it, people will stop being horrified at it. The edges near to it will gravitate towards it. And they will recruit more nazis. They will grow their ranks. And then we have WW2 era germany all over again. Nip. It. In. The. Fucking. Bud.
You can't do that. We live in a society where everyone has free speech. This is a very good thing. While you do have to put up with right wingers (or "nazis", as I guess they're totally a German supremacist political party from the 30's and 40's) and other people whose opinions you don't like saying whatever it is they want to say, it also means you and those you agree with can say whatever the fuck you want, regardless of who else is offended.

Besides, silencing people does not "nip it in the bud", so to speak. If anything, it validates their views far more than debunking them ever could. Especially nowadays, when the internet is a thing.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 04:19:21 am
Wasn't that Conty's argument? That Nazis are restricted to original German NSDAP members from the early 20th century? Ignore those guys with "gas the Jews" memes. They're just channers...or something...
Also, I think people are saying that violence against Nazis is done primarily as an argument against speech-as opposed to a defensive measure against people who want you dead!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Art Vandelay on September 04, 2017, 05:36:08 am
I don't know, I must've missed that one.

In any case though, I'm not saying they should be ignored just because they're not the same people as actual Nazis. That's kind of a non-sequitor, and it's not as though Nazis have a monopoly on genocide and fascism in the first place. It just annoys me equating modern day wingnuts with Nazis in the same way that referring to earphones as "headphones" or saying "irregardless" gets on my tits.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 05:56:53 am
Hey Art, the owner of this website is not a member of the NSDAP.

(click to show/hide)
Also, wasn't around in the thirties or the forties.

This fella with the skateboard shield.
(click to show/hide)
Also not an NSDAP card holder.

And these fellas chanting "Jews will not replace us" and surrounding counter protesters, to respectfully exchange viewpoints for sure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4uwyctYy0s
...were never ever members of the Depression or WWII era Nazi parties, SS, brownshirts or Wehrmacht.

Nothing to worry about, right?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Art Vandelay on September 04, 2017, 06:11:34 am
I don't know, I must've missed that one.

In any case though, I'm not saying they should be ignored just because they're not the same people as actual Nazis. That's kind of a non-sequitor, and it's not as though Nazis have a monopoly on genocide and fascism in the first place. It just annoys me equating modern day wingnuts with Nazis in the same way that referring to earphones as "headphones" or saying "irregardless" gets on my tits.

Le sigh
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 06:25:28 am
Fair enough, so what's the cut off for worrying about the kinds of dangers the Nazis posed?
Clearly it isn't just your run of the mill fanatic, because a fanatic brony probably isn't that scary.
However someone who does want entire categories of people exterminated might not be a Nazi exactly but...is that kind of Nazi enough to at least warrant a raised eyebrow or two?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Art Vandelay on September 04, 2017, 06:31:17 am
However someone who does want entire categories of people exterminated might not be a Nazi exactly but...is that kind of Nazi enough to at least warrant a raised eyebrow or two?
Obviously it warrants a raised eyebrow or two regardless of what you call it. As I've been trying to say, "not a Nazi" does not mean "not a concern". They're two completely separate issues.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 04, 2017, 06:47:58 am
Whatever they're calling themselves. Murderous fuckers are murderous fuckers and self defence is entirely justified against what they do!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 04, 2017, 04:45:56 pm
If it goose-steps like a Nazi, wears jackboots like a Nazi, and salutes like a Nazi...
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 04, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
If it goose-steps like a Nazi, wears jackboots like a Nazi, and salutes like a Nazi...

Then it still deserves the same civil liberties granted to anybody else. While I won't defend Nazi ideas, I will defend their right to make their ideas known.

When Richard Spencer got punched, I felt no sympathy for him. He's a racist prick, no matter how much he tries to couch his ideas in "nonviolence" (as if you can have the ethnic cleansing he advocates without violence). Still, that doesn't mean I approved of the punching. I believe that people should be able to express their ideas, no matter how repugnant they are. Unpopular speech has to be protected precisely because it's unpopular. It wasn't that long ago that the very idea of LGBT rights was deeply unpopular in mainstream America.

Or let's look at it pragmatically. What, exactly, did punching Spencer accomplish? Aside from raising his profile?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 04, 2017, 06:04:33 pm
Whatever they're calling themselves. Murderous fuckers are murderous fuckers and self defence is entirely justified against what they do!

Self-defence, certainly.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 04, 2017, 07:35:31 pm
Whatever they're calling themselves. Murderous fuckers are murderous fuckers and self defence is entirely justified against what they do!

Self-defence, certainly.

Yeah, I have no problem with people defending themselves from attacks by these tools. Attacking first is an entirely different matter.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 04, 2017, 08:09:08 pm
Or let's look at it pragmatically. What, exactly, did punching Spencer accomplish? Aside from raising his profile?

Catharsis. So much catharsis.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: lord gibbon on September 04, 2017, 08:11:52 pm
Or let's look at it pragmatically. What, exactly, did punching Spencer accomplish? Aside from raising his profile?

Catharsis. So much catharsis.
Also, it scared a lot of the fascists into hiding for a time. They NEED a public platform to spread their ideas, and they won't get it if they're too scared to go out.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 04, 2017, 09:05:08 pm
Or let's look at it pragmatically. What, exactly, did punching Spencer accomplish? Aside from raising his profile?

Catharsis. So much catharsis.
Also, it scared a lot of the fascists into hiding for a time. They NEED a public platform to spread their ideas, and they won't get it if they're too scared to go out.

I hope you don't mind me asking you for a source.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 05, 2017, 08:43:35 am
Uh, no.  People calling for a race war and the wholesale gassing of Jews deserve prison, at best, not a social or political platform.  I'm about to say something super unpopular, but fuck free speech if it means the swastika sporting vermin get to try and incite the inbred morons of my country to acts of mindless violence.  Back in high school, you'd get expelled for trying to incite a riot or other form of mass violence.  We have an equivalent of that and we should fucking well use it.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Canadian Mojo on September 05, 2017, 08:55:44 am
There is a 500lbs gorilla in the room that everybody seem to conveniently ignore. Even the very loose interpretation of free speech the US goes with is not unrestricted. There is the classic 'yelling fire in a crowded theatre,' but you are also not allowed to threaten or incite violence.

Now, one could argue that calling for the suspension of rights and removal of any particular group is a defacto threat, but it's also a rabbit hole that is probably best left unexplored since taken to its extremes it could quash any discussion of rights. It's just words to say we don't want you here so we kind of begrudgingly have to accept it.

It's another matter entirely to say it with a weapon in your hand. That is a threat and you have no constitutional protections when you do that and there is absolutely no reason why society has to tolerate it. It is disingenuous to pretend protestors armed with guns and shields constitutes a legitimate expression of free speech.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 05, 2017, 09:55:19 am
Yeaaaaaaaah...if they're an actual, literal torch-wielding mob, freeze peach don't fuckin matter.  It is a literal, actual, factual torch-fucking-wielding mob.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 05, 2017, 02:46:51 pm
Well, unfortunately, thanks to this little thing known as the Second Amendment, armed mobs are rather tougher to deal with preemptively without violating civil liberties in the US than they would be in other countries.

Up here, I'd have no problem with a government seeking an injunction allowing police to confiscate weapons from protesters going to rallies that might turn violent.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 05, 2017, 03:31:45 pm
Free speech has different definitions in different country. The Finnish definition for example is that no one should be pre-emptively silenced but there may be consequences to what you say.

Using the "shouting about a fire in a movie theater" example, you can shout that but afterwards you would be arrested for causing panic. You can also print lies in a magazine or demand a genocide and preventing these from happening beforehand is difficult but arresting and imprisoning the people who do so is not.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 05, 2017, 10:32:26 pm
Well, unfortunately, thanks to this little thing known as the Second Amendment, armed mobs are rather tougher to deal with preemptively without violating civil liberties in the US than they would be in other countries.

Up here, I'd have no problem with a government seeking an injunction allowing police to confiscate weapons from protesters going to rallies that might turn violent.


Or, just put anyone that comes openly armed with things like torches, knives, and firearms in the drunk tank for the night.  You can assemble peacefully, but if you want to have an armed mob, you and your buddies can cool your cunts in a couple of jail cells for a while.  Repeat offenses are, of course, punishable by increasing amounts of bannination from normal people society.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 06, 2017, 03:02:21 am
There's another elephant in the room, and that's that laws are not applied evenly by the powers. that be. In the US Trump defunded investigation into the far right. Contrast this with the DOJ's re opening of a case into a woman who laughed at Sessions in court. While Good Liberals(tm) clutch their pearls at Antifa meeting violence with violence the US federal government won't even devote resources into investigating fascist terror groups because that's a partisan issue. Apparently.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 06, 2017, 03:11:16 am
If I clutch my pearls at Antifa meeting violence with violence, it's because even setting aside any moral convictions I might have about violence in general, if it comes down to violence between the left and the right, I KNOW WHO WILL WIN.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 06, 2017, 03:44:41 am
Welp, the far right doesn't give a toss if you're in favor of peaceful solutions. They'll gas or lynch you regardless.

And if the law won't protect left wing protesters from the right what choice do they have but counter-violence?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 06, 2017, 04:00:25 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 06, 2017, 04:46:42 am
Welp, the far right doesn't give a toss if you're in favor of peaceful solutions. They'll gas or lynch you regardless.

And if the law won't protect left wing protesters from the right what choice do they have but counter-violence?

The far right doesn't. But the people who are more on the fringes and might have sympathies--but still have a conscience--do care. So when they see people on the left being peaceful, they realize which side they want to be on, but when both sides are violent, they stick with their original gut feeling, and the far right grows.

And, again, the left CANNOT let it come to violence. They cannot win in that scenario. If the image of the conflict becomes one of two violent factions, that will doom the left, because when it comes to violence the right will always beat the left, plus the right will gain sympathy because of the "violent leftists" attacking them. The left must be nonviolent or they cannot win the larger battle of ideas--and anyway, when you resort to violence, you're admitting that the only way you can get someone to admit to the correctness of your ideas is to beat them into it or kill them (in which case their opinion becomes irrelevant); essentially, an admission that you can't win in the realm of ideas.

Antifa is the single greatest gift the left could ever have given the right, because it undermines everything that the left stands for and undermines the case the left makes for its ideas, and justifies violence from the right in "self-defence."

The left cannot start the violence and cannot allow the debate to be settled by violence. If either is true, the left will lose.

And there's a key difference between WWII and now--WWII was a matter of foreign policy, while what's going on now is a domestic conflict.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 06, 2017, 07:58:41 am
Dude, have you been paying attention?  It ain't the left that's "letting it come to violence," its the rather dubious gentlemen on the other end that have been forming ... oh, what was it?  Oh yeah!  Torch-wielding mobs.  Oh, and coming to protests armed like the Inbred Liberation Front.

You also seem to forget that all those weapons the morons have?  Yeah, we can buy em, too.  Being that we typically have just a little bit more money, we can afford more, if it comes down to it.

You're right about one thing, though: the Nazis are a domestic problem.  A domestic terrorist problem.  Oh, if only we had a place where we could send people who form armed mobs for the purpose of frightening a large portion of the populace.  Maybe made of concrete and steel, with bars on each room.  Too bad we don't have places like that scattered around like jacks.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 06, 2017, 09:13:09 am
I have to point out that if you think that the violence from Nazis and the counter protestors is in any way comparable or that "everyone who doesn't like Nazis" can be considered a single group that is responsible for the worst of their members you clearly have not been paying attention.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Canadian Mojo on September 06, 2017, 09:47:00 am
Well, unfortunately, thanks to this little thing known as the Second Amendment, armed mobs are rather tougher to deal with preemptively without violating civil liberties in the US than they would be in other countries.

Up here, I'd have no problem with a government seeking an injunction allowing police to confiscate weapons from protesters going to rallies that might turn violent.

I'm not sure it is really that difficult an issue to circumvent since the US can set up free speech zones and gun free zones. There is really nothing stopping a protest permit from having a no weapons clause in it.

It might make for some interesting challenges though.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 06, 2017, 02:19:09 pm
Well, unfortunately, thanks to this little thing known as the Second Amendment, armed mobs are rather tougher to deal with preemptively without violating civil liberties in the US than they would be in other countries.

Up here, I'd have no problem with a government seeking an injunction allowing police to confiscate weapons from protesters going to rallies that might turn violent.


Or, just put anyone that comes openly armed with things like torches, knives, and firearms in the drunk tank for the night.  You can assemble peacefully, but if you want to have an armed mob, you and your buddies can cool your cunts in a couple of jail cells for a while.  Repeat offenses are, of course, punishable by increasing amounts of bannination from normal people society.

Direct question: do you think that standard should be applied across the board?

Welp, the far right doesn't give a toss if you're in favor of peaceful solutions. They'll gas or lynch you regardless.

And if the law won't protect left wing protesters from the right what choice do they have but counter-violence?

Okay, I have something to ask. You justify preemptive strikes against the alt-right because the police supposedly won't intervene. With that in mind, I have a direct question: do you have any evidence? And I mean evidence of this being a pattern, not the occasional incident.

I have to point out that if you think that the violence from Nazis and the counter protestors is in any way comparable or that "everyone who doesn't like Nazis" can be considered a single group that is responsible for the worst of their members you clearly have not been paying attention.

The latter, I agree with wholeheartedly. But I'd like to know what you mean by the former. How are they not comparable?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 06, 2017, 03:11:14 pm
Check how many attacks right-wing groups and Neo-Nazis in particular have done in USA in the last 10 years. Then compare that to attacks against Neo-Nazis or right-wing groups in general to see that although some fash has been bashed and there was that one shooter who attacked congress member... There's just practically no organized terrorism from any group that could be seen as the left-wing equivalent of Neo-Nazis.

You got a few people who call themselves ANTIFA hit some heads but even from those we have as many false flag attacks as real ones. (Like that one guy who stabbed himself and tried to frame ANTIFA but admitted it eventually. OR those FB pages for supposed ANTIFA attacks or protests against Confederate statues that were right-wing trolls trying to encourage leftists to commit terrorism. All of those failed btw.)

And in the protests like the "Unite the right" rally we saw that the counter-protestors consciously tried to prevent any violence. They in fact organized people to keep an eye on fellow counter-protestors to get in between of any imminent conflicts because they didn't want people to say that they attacked Nazis.

So you've got couple dozen ANTIFA wannabes who are Ancaps or Anarchists and want to beat up Nazis, and tens of thousands of peaceful people who just don't like Nazis and are willing to march agaisnt them. And some more random people who want to violently oppose Nazis but aren't part of any groups.

Meanwhile on the Nazi side of the equation... You have organizations that are openly violent and admit that they support a genocide. You have people bringing guns, armour and melee weapons to protests AND using all of those. Guy who has  a high rank in one of the KKK offshoots called a counter-protestor a nigger and tried to shoot him. (His gun failed to fire and when he fiddled with it, it went off and hit the ground. He is now going to court for firing a gun near a church. This despite police being few meters away from him when he fired the gun. They ignored this attempted homicide until the video went viral.) There was the guy who drove over people. That was not an accident. Not an accident by the terrorist and not an accident in that he just randomly thought of using a car. Right-wing web pages have been encouraging people to run over protesters for a year at least. They have been drooling over themselves at the thought of running over people who protest against Nazis and telling each other to do it.

The violence on the "two sides" is not comparable and neither is the encouragement for violence.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 06, 2017, 03:19:26 pm
It isn't equivalent... but when anyone on the left is preemptively violent (or overly violent in self-defence), it gives cover for those on the right to cloak themselves in a mantle of victimhood and claim that the other side is being violent and they're the ones defending themselves.

Antifa, however small it may be, is a "major gift to the right (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/noam-chomsky-antifa-major-gift-right-wing-anti-fascist-alt-left-a7906406.html)."
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 06, 2017, 03:41:39 pm
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists (http://wtvr.com/2017/08/14/cbs-6-journalist-attack-richmond-protest/), cops (http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/06/antifa-member-arrested-for-attacking-police-horse-with-nail-studded-pole-001770187.html), and more moderate right-wingers (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/27/masked_anarchists_disrupt_peaceful_berkeley_protest_attack_pro_trump_demonstrators.html). And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 06, 2017, 03:59:19 pm
And is ANTIFA comparable to Neo-Nazis and the other violent hate groups?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 06, 2017, 04:11:38 pm
And is ANTIFA comparable to Neo-Nazis and the other violent hate groups?

No, but perception is often more important than reality in shaping the debate, and so if those right-wing hate groups can depict the left as being "just as bad," that's a win for them.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 06, 2017, 04:12:06 pm
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 06, 2017, 04:17:43 pm
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I'm not saying to have a dialogue with the people who are trying to kill you. I'm saying to show the people who still have a conscience but haven't made up their minds that WE ARE THE BETTER SIDE.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: SCarpelan on September 06, 2017, 04:20:07 pm
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists (http://wtvr.com/2017/08/14/cbs-6-journalist-attack-richmond-protest/), cops (http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/06/antifa-member-arrested-for-attacking-police-horse-with-nail-studded-pole-001770187.html), and more moderate right-wingers (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/27/masked_anarchists_disrupt_peaceful_berkeley_protest_attack_pro_trump_demonstrators.html). And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
I don't approve of a lot of what Antifa does and while I'm not a full pacifist I condemn any violence that crosses a certain line. I just have to point out that your personal Overton window needs adjusting if you really believe people like the PatriotWarriorMedia guy who got assaulted (in a way that I condemn) are "moderate". Far right is more than just neo-nazis.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: LeTipex on September 06, 2017, 04:27:21 pm
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I'm not saying to have a dialogue with the people who are trying to kill you. I'm saying to show the people who still have a conscience but haven't made up their minds that WE ARE THE BETTER SIDE.
At this point people who haven't made up their minds do not have a conscience.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 06, 2017, 04:31:39 pm
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists (http://wtvr.com/2017/08/14/cbs-6-journalist-attack-richmond-protest/), cops (http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/06/antifa-member-arrested-for-attacking-police-horse-with-nail-studded-pole-001770187.html), and more moderate right-wingers (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/27/masked_anarchists_disrupt_peaceful_berkeley_protest_attack_pro_trump_demonstrators.html). And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
I don't approve of a lot of what Antifa does and while I'm not a full pacifist I condemn any violence that crosses a certain line. I just have to point out that your personal Overton window needs adjusting if you really believe people like the PatriotWarriorMedia guy who got assaulted (in a way that I condemn) are "moderate". Far right is more than just neo-nazis.

I said "more moderate". I don't consider them moderate, I just think they're less extreme than white supremacists.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: SCarpelan on September 06, 2017, 04:52:47 pm
"Less extremist" is a more descriptive way of expressing it. The difference is not purposeless nitpicking: attaching the word "moderate" in people like them even with a qualifier is part of how their extremism becomes normalized.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 06, 2017, 08:20:32 pm
I'd also like to point out that you seem to be assuming the only reasonable response to hatred is violence. But there's a man who's walking proof that there are other options:

(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/musician-daryl-davis-attends-the-premiere-of-accidental-courtesy-picture-id515514970?s=612x612)

Meet Daryl Davis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis), a blues musician who actively works to improve race relations. The means he uses are unusual, and may seem outright stupid at first glance, but they've worked. He's gotten at least 200 people to abandon their hateful beliefs. And these people weren't the relatively benign "race realist" types you might come across on social media. They were card-carrying members of the KKK (http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes). So, what did he do that was so effective?

He sat down and talked to them.

I'm not exaggerating. That's pretty much what he did. So why are we assuming that violence is the best option?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 06, 2017, 08:44:08 pm
I'm not exaggerating. That's pretty much what he did. So why are we assuming that violence is the best option?

Pretty easy answer to that one:

YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

Edit: Just a reminder: there were two people in Portland who tried talking to the extremist, and now they're dead. Because he stabbed them to death. Look how well 'dialogue' and 'nonviolence' worked out for them.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 06, 2017, 10:19:24 pm
@Lana: Across what board?  Do I think a Nazi's only purpose is to fill a jail cell?  Yes.  Should people who come to a protest visibly armed be put in the same place as people who try to drunkenly piss on a neighbour's cactus?  Yes, except for repeat offenses, which will naturally lead to harsher penalties.  About what else are you talking?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: davedan on September 06, 2017, 10:51:14 pm
Urgghh, Lanagon actually has a point. Non-violence is a difficult but can be a highly effective political tool in dealing with fascists or other authoritarians. As you can see they are quite ready for violence and they feel (and probably are) protected by the arms state during those violent confrontations. Whereas non-violent responses can be more politically useful for advancing progressive causes. During the civil rights era they trained for non-violent protests and not everyone was up to it. It takes a lot of determination not to strike back when someone spits on or kicks you.

Personally when it comes to things like the Charlottesville riot I think the best response to the 'alt-right' is to mock them ala Charlie Chaplin's Dictator. Dress up as clowns. Let them know even though your dressed as a clown you're more serious than they are.

The fact is they get raging hardons about the thought of phsyical confrontation but will be terrible embarrassed if people just point and laugh.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Askold on September 07, 2017, 02:01:47 am
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/44701f6920535a83f17591f4fabbf78d/tumblr_ovsvekBPsp1w5tpgio1_1280.jpg)

The argument seems to be that unless people protesting against Nazis, aka "people who aren't Nazis," all remain 100% non-violent and treat Nazis with respect at all times then the Nazis can suddenly pretend to be victims ...and somehow hypnotize every neutral person into thinking that the two sides are the same?

I mean, if you can't tell the difference between elbowing someone in the face or stabbing two people to death then I guess that makes sense.

Just seems like one of those arguments where a black person has somehow deserved to be shot to death by police because they weren't respecful enough while a white person can literally bring assault rifle to a police station while wearing a body armour and the police are to be blamed for kindly asking him to leave because they were disprespectful to his 2nd amendment rights.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: davedan on September 07, 2017, 02:13:19 am
For the record I'm not buying into the two sides are equal bullshit or that punching Richard Spencer in the face somehow is the equivalent of deliberately driving your car into a group of people. I'm just saying that mocking him or making him 'look like a cuck' as the 'alt-right' would say is probably more effective in the long run. Although I should note that the guy who organised the Charlottseville e Nazi rally ran away from people deliberately not touching him. The guy shouting in his face 'Indict for murder now' had his hands in the air as the 'cuck' ran away and fell over repeatedly trying to do so.

Much like the film of the 'alt-right cuck' taking of his shirt when confronted, it was much more effective that no one subsequently punched him in the face, although I viscerally feel that is what they deserve.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 07, 2017, 05:05:24 am
Okay, I have something to ask. You justify preemptive strikes against the alt-right because the police supposedly won't intervene. With that in mind, I have a direct question: do you have any evidence? And I mean evidence of this being a pattern, not the occasional incident.

We've done this dance before Lana!
Oh hey, interesting little factoid (https://www.facebook.com/events/185364111955870/permalink/207694299722851/) from the organizer of the Berkeley rally, Rich Black (http://www.dailycal.org/2017/04/13/free-speech-rally-featuring-controversial-alt-right-speakers-scheduled-saturday/). Archived (http://archive.is/JYBKt#selection-1055.0-1055.10), in case it goes down.

Quote
Although I cannot and will not justify all of their decisions on that day, it should be known that when the last speaker had finished, per instruction, we gave a public announcement to begin evacuating the area and the Police mobilized against Antifa allowing us to leave. It was also to our understanding that the Police had made assurances to us, granted we would not cross the orange fencing at any time. I understand that this may have been impossible at times. However, if it were not for the Police immediately disarming the first wave of Antifa, whom were in a full charge against us, the event would have been shut down before it began and would have resulted in tremendous blood shed.

So there you have it, yes - above we have evidence that both groups carried weapons but the organizer of the "patriot" rally tells us that A, the cops who were strangely absent during much of the violence of the day mobilized against Antifa for the purpose of allowing the "patriots" and assorted alt righters and Nazis to leave safely and B they disarmed the first wave of Antifa before the violence began. It would seem that the enforcers of the law were more concerned about tipping the balance in the right wingers favor than enforcing the law equitably and professionally.

Somehow I doubt Lana or Conty will be very concerned.

It was the thread where you ended up being called a Nazi water carrying coward by Ironbite. Remember?

And fuck yes, it's a pattern! (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/07/police-protecting-170720070852027.html)
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: pyro on September 07, 2017, 06:06:08 pm
You're right about one thing, though: the Nazis are a domestic problem.  A domestic terrorist problem.  Oh, if only we had a place where we could send people who form armed mobs for the purpose of frightening a large portion of the populace.  Maybe made of concrete and steel, with bars on each room.  Too bad we don't have places like that scattered around like jacks.

Is it naive to think that that's what jails are for? Or is it excessive to stop considering the ongoing and longstanding use of the state as a tool of oppression "abuse" and start considering the possibility that oppression is actually the state's purpose?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 07, 2017, 08:38:39 pm
Okay, I have something to ask. You justify preemptive strikes against the alt-right because the police supposedly won't intervene. With that in mind, I have a direct question: do you have any evidence? And I mean evidence of this being a pattern, not the occasional incident.

We've done this dance before Lana!
Oh hey, interesting little factoid (https://www.facebook.com/events/185364111955870/permalink/207694299722851/) from the organizer of the Berkeley rally, Rich Black (http://www.dailycal.org/2017/04/13/free-speech-rally-featuring-controversial-alt-right-speakers-scheduled-saturday/). Archived (http://archive.is/JYBKt#selection-1055.0-1055.10), in case it goes down.

Quote
Although I cannot and will not justify all of their decisions on that day, it should be known that when the last speaker had finished, per instruction, we gave a public announcement to begin evacuating the area and the Police mobilized against Antifa allowing us to leave. It was also to our understanding that the Police had made assurances to us, granted we would not cross the orange fencing at any time. I understand that this may have been impossible at times. However, if it were not for the Police immediately disarming the first wave of Antifa, whom were in a full charge against us, the event would have been shut down before it began and would have resulted in tremendous blood shed.

So there you have it, yes - above we have evidence that both groups carried weapons but the organizer of the "patriot" rally tells us that A, the cops who were strangely absent during much of the violence of the day mobilized against Antifa for the purpose of allowing the "patriots" and assorted alt righters and Nazis to leave safely and B they disarmed the first wave of Antifa before the violence began. It would seem that the enforcers of the law were more concerned about tipping the balance in the right wingers favor than enforcing the law equitably and professionally.

Somehow I doubt Lana or Conty will be very concerned.

It was the thread where you ended up being called a Nazi water carrying coward by Ironbite. Remember?

And fuck yes, it's a pattern! (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/07/police-protecting-170720070852027.html)

You mean the thread where everybody jumped on me while Askold accused me of logical fallacies? Yep.

Regarding what Rich said, you seem to be ignoring the part where he said Antifa was charging. I mean, as long as we're taking him at his word, why not talk about the part where he said Antifa started the fight?

Also, the article you linked gives no evidence of any "pattern". At most, it might have a point about Christie being biased. Try reading your links.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: RavynousHunter on September 07, 2017, 09:54:57 pm
You're right about one thing, though: the Nazis are a domestic problem.  A domestic terrorist problem.  Oh, if only we had a place where we could send people who form armed mobs for the purpose of frightening a large portion of the populace.  Maybe made of concrete and steel, with bars on each room.  Too bad we don't have places like that scattered around like jacks.

Is it naive to think that that's what jails are for? Or is it excessive to stop considering the ongoing and longstanding use of the state as a tool of oppression "abuse" and start considering the possibility that oppression is actually the state's purpose?

The state is a tool; it is not the state that is a problem, it is the people using it that are the issue.  Ideally, the state exists to enforce the social contract: to protect society as a whole (in the form of law and order, as well as a military presence), to provide for the common good (education, health care, etc), and to provide the upkeep for public utilities (roads, rails, and bridges, as well as public utilities like water and power).

The problem oftentimes lies in the first part of the contract, the protection of society at large.  We see this in the increased militarization of the police, giving them access to military-grade hardware without the requisite training and experience needed to know when it should be used for the greatest overall effect.  The police, themselves, are easily the largest (and most commonly used) tool for the systemic oppression of the underclass and minorities, but that is not their purpose.  Their purpose is to, as they say, "protect and serve."  In a more honest, less idiotically corrupt society, that would mean everyone.  As it is, the people with the money can buy their way out of receiving their just punishment (so...what happened to all them bankers what almost obliterated our economy about a decade back?) while poor people and minorities are abused by a system that is fundamentally rigged against them.  That, combined with the shocking lack of oversight when it comes to psychologically vetting our potential law enforcement personnel, makes for a perfect storm of a tool that can be easily abused.

However, ideally, people like neo-Nazis, skinheads, radical "militias," and so on would be put behind bars for either actively committing crimes, aiding and abetting known criminals, or plotting to commit crimes and acts of domestic terrorism.  These people are a threat to a large number of people; to deal with that threat, such people ought to be contained in a secured place where they are monitored and kept away from society at large.

But, who's going to arrest a white man when there's plenty of unarmed black teenagers out there just begging to be gunned down, amirite?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 08, 2017, 02:15:45 am
Try reading your links.
Lecture me about referencing after you remember to cite an article.at all.

You know the one you called "the article" in reference to some article that wasn't referenced in this thread. Assuming it exists. The one I asked about you that you still haven't bothered to identify.

Antifa were the aggressors at Berkeley. Didn't you read the article?
There wasn't an article in the OP.

WHAT. FUCKING. ARTICLE. LANA???
Remember I asked you that to deafening silence O Ultimate Paragon of direct questioning, Dynamic Dragon of Citations. Yeah, I found the article despite your inability to cite yourself. From the Washington Post, the same Washington Post who equated Nazis and Anti Nazis. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/yes-antifa-is-the-moral-equivalent-of-neo-nazis/2017/08/30/9a13b2f6-8d00-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html?utm_term=.e3fafb512b1e)
Fuck off!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 08, 2017, 11:45:40 am
Try reading your links.
Lecture me about referencing after you remember to cite an article.at all.

You know the one you called "the article" in reference to some article that wasn't referenced in this thread. Assuming it exists. The one I asked about you that you still haven't bothered to identify.

Antifa were the aggressors at Berkeley. Didn't you read the article?
There wasn't an article in the OP.

WHAT. FUCKING. ARTICLE. LANA???
Remember I asked you that to deafening silence O Ultimate Paragon of direct questioning, Dynamic Dragon of Citations. Yeah, I found the article despite your inability to cite yourself. From the Washington Post, the same Washington Post who equated Nazis and Anti Nazis. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/yes-antifa-is-the-moral-equivalent-of-neo-nazis/2017/08/30/9a13b2f6-8d00-11e7-91d5-ab4e4bb76a3a_story.html?utm_term=.e3fafb512b1e)
Fuck off!

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.

Oh, and by the way, I did post a link to the article.

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

You even quoted the post the link was in!

What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/)./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: ironbite on September 08, 2017, 11:57:52 am
Gonna ask again.  Is your back sore from carrying all that water?

Ironbite-mine would be.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 08, 2017, 12:09:32 pm
Gonna ask again.  Is your back sore from carrying all that water?

Ironbite-mine would be.

I'm not "carrying water" for the Nazis.

Direct question: why do you think I am?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: ironbite on September 08, 2017, 05:36:34 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 08, 2017, 05:57:53 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 08, 2017, 06:55:23 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.

On the other hand, if they get their way, you won't be able to do the same.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 08, 2017, 07:12:01 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.

On the other hand, if they get their way, you won't be able to do the same.

Which is why I don't defend them any further and would exercise my free speech to speak against what they say.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 08, 2017, 07:15:27 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

I'm not "defending" them. Defending their constitutional rights, sure. But I despise them.

Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.

On the other hand, if they get their way, you won't be able to do the same.

Which is why I don't defend them any further and would exercise my free speech to speak against what they say.


Indeed. The best response to hate speech is not to suppress it, but to confront it.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 08, 2017, 09:03:04 pm
Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

I'm not "defending" them. Defending their constitutional rights, sure. But I despise them.

Because you are.

Ironbite-notice nobody else is defending these animals.

Well, I sort of am, but only insofar as I defend their right to the peaceful expression of their views because I want to ensure that I can do the same.

On the other hand, if they get their way, you won't be able to do the same.

Which is why I don't defend them any further and would exercise my free speech to speak against what they say.


Indeed. The best response to hate speech is not to suppress it, but to confront it.
And you spend most of your time confronting people who confront Nazis. Good use of all that freedom. /s
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: SCarpelan on September 08, 2017, 09:45:13 pm
The point behind Antifa's actions is that fascism and hate speech can find fertile ground to grow if not suppressed directly. This is actually something I agree with them about: it's naive to think rational arguments are always enough if dissatisfied people and are given an easy, weaker enemy (minorities) to blame for their troubles and a group that makes them feel more safe. Unfortunately, people are easily guided by their emotions, specially fear that can override any rational arguments. Part of what keeps people who have sympathies to far-right ideologies expressing their feelings is the fear of social consequences of doing so. When the Overton window moves far enough to the right by someone like Trump influencing the public discourse there needs to be something to make sure there are consequences to spreading hate. In a stabile society their ideology might not find much room to grow but when enough people are dissatisfied open hate can become infectious.

Also, hate speech directly influences the people it is targeting. Having people like the Charlottesville crowd chanting "Whose streets? Our streets!" or "You (/Jews) will not replace us!" is terror tactic targeting the minority groups*. Just like terrorists striking civilian targets it is meant to spread fear and influence society - in this case to make the minorities fearful and feel too vulnerable to fight their oppression. I'd much rather have the racists be afraid to express their opinion than have the members of the minorities be afraid just because who they are.

The anarchist / Antifa stance is that the state as represented by the legal system isn't interested in protecting the oppressed people from this kind of terror and the liberal non-violent approach doesn't help either. Personally, I think they do have a point but due to there being also overreactions and actions I cannot accept I neither unequivocally support nor condemn the Antifa movement as a whole.

*As a side note: they tried to march through a black neighborhood. They were chased away by the neighborhood residents before the counter protesters had time to react to this turn of events. IMO this is a great example of threat of violence (or actual violence, I don't know the details) being used in self defence and shows that the locals were not willing to submit to terror tactics.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 02:15:44 am
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right  (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/), the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists  (https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/)and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 09, 2017, 02:19:21 am
And it's a lot faster to say, "They're violent too!" than what you posted, Tol, which is why violence from the left is counterproductive.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 09, 2017, 02:44:47 am
So the nazis get to carry torches, wave guns, and run over people, and that's expected because they're nazis, nothing we can do about it. No matter than every time they gather, people die, can't stop them gathering. But don't you DARE punch one, or you're just as awful and violent and morally equivalent, and no one will listen to you, even though the other side is NAZIS.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 09, 2017, 02:47:08 am
So the nazis get to carry torches, wave guns, and run over people, and that's expected because they're nazis, nothing we can do about it. No matter than every time they gather, people die, can't stop them gathering. But don't you DARE punch one, or you're just as awful and violent and morally equivalent, and no one will listen to you, even though the other side is NAZIS.

I didn't say that. But consider the attention span of the average person these days.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 02:51:44 am
And it's a lot faster to say, "They're violent too!" than what you posted, Tol, which is why violence from the left is counterproductive.
Yeah, but that wasn't what I said.

"More", not "too" and by not merely "too" I mean "fucking massively". It's not "the right are violent too" it's "the far right are fucking insanely violent and Antifa is at worst a bit violent-sometimes." Not only are the far right more violent the far right are ideologically committed to slavery and genocide which is as violent as it gets.

Also when the police won't offer the left the same level of protection as the right (https://theintercept.com/2017/08/23/boston-alt-right-police-black-lives-matter-counter-demonstration/), when they become partisan, it's pacifism that becomes counterproductive unless you're relying on the media to save you with sympathetic treatment.

If that's the case then, good luck!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Svata on September 09, 2017, 03:48:19 am
He was (rather obviously IMO) meaning its easier for the right to say "but they're violent too" referring to Antifa. To excuse not backing them up against the Nazis, and to try to create the idea of equivalence among the less-far right, the center, and even the moderate left.


I disagree with him too, but don't deliberately misinterpret what he's saying.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 04:19:00 am
He was (rather obviously IMO) meaning its easier for the right to say "but they're violent too" referring to Antifa. To excuse not backing them up against the Nazis, and to try to create the idea of equivalence among the less-far right, the center, and even the moderate left.


I disagree with him too, but don't deliberately misinterpret what he's saying.
Fair enough. Apologies.

But the right will call left wing protesters violent as a group the moment there's any sort of fracas at a rally, disavowing Antifa won't alter that. Antifa packing up and going home forever wouldn't alter that. I do however find that tactically, purely committing yourself to nonviolence only works in certain contexts. Yes Antifa do some dumb shit but Cornel West (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/cornel_west_rev_toni_blackmon_clergy) for one was glad they were there when confederate flag waving fashy-heads were circling and the cops weren't stopping them.

In any case the OP was posted not say "Antifa are wonderful", just to laugh at people who'll try to paint them as babby eating demon hordes. They are what they are.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 09, 2017, 12:22:57 pm
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right  (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/), the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists  (https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/)and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson (https://mtlcounter-info.org/en/6-reasons-i-support-arson-as-a-tool-for-social-justice/). They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Eiki-mun on September 09, 2017, 01:26:27 pm
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right  (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/), the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists  (https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/)and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson (https://mtlcounter-info.org/en/6-reasons-i-support-arson-as-a-tool-for-social-justice/). They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?

You know, I will admit something. I'd like to say "of course I would, killing someone is an evil and by definition irredeemable action". But at times, I think it would depend on the target. In my more cynical moments, I have thought and argued that the left needs to "put some points on the board", you might say. And if the person killed were, say, a Klansman, or a far-right wacko, I might not feel too bad about it.

That's my honest answer.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 08:25:45 pm
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right  (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/), the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists  (https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/)and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson (https://mtlcounter-info.org/en/6-reasons-i-support-arson-as-a-tool-for-social-justice/). They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Eh, depends.

If there's someone trying to kill you or those you love there's a bit of wriggle room. In any case it'd take less than that for me to condemn them. I've said they do some dumb already. I just think with violent far right factions on the rise they can form a necesarry function for when the cops prefer to wait it out like they did in Charlottsville and Berkely.

Cops do their job properly, self defence against Nazis unecessary.

Anyway, it's high standards coming from someone who hasn't devoted any energy to condemning the right wing hordes in Charlotsville after they killed Heather!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 08:29:08 pm
Also Lana, you are not FSTDT's chief prosecutor. Henceforth I reserve the right to answer your ongoing abuse of the direct question rule with "fuck you", or similar. Kay?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Lana Reverse on September 09, 2017, 08:40:46 pm
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. If you disagree with its claims of moral equivalency, that's fine. But that doesn't change the facts the article presents. If you have evidence against its claims, then show us.
You've shown in one instance anti fascists instigating trouble, this still doesn't show any moral equivalence between Antifa and the Nazis they're opposing. The bottom line is that the Nazis, and those on the Alt right who march with them statistically do more violence, 74% of terrorist homicides in the US are attributable to the far right  (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/), the tiny percentage of terrorist homicides are not attributable to Antifa, the Black Bloc, BLM or Redneck Revolt but to Black seperatists and supremacists  (https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/)and those, Lana are facts Though I doubt you'll want to own them.

Nazis want to wipe entire ethnicities off the map, the people at Berkeley who marched with them cared more about coshing hippies than the representatives of pure unfiltered evil standing next to them. The anarchists on the black bloc don't share a vision of the future with me but their vision isn't forged purely by hate, fear and loathing. There is no equivalency.!

Where did I claim a moral equivalency? You don't need to tell me that left-wing extremists haven't killed as many people as jihadis or far-right terrorists, I already know that!

My point is not that Antifa is "just as bad", it's that they're violent extremists who don't care about constitutional liberties or collateral damage. They've attacked people just because they were there. They've openly advocated arson (https://mtlcounter-info.org/en/6-reasons-i-support-arson-as-a-tool-for-social-justice/). They've proclaimed that "liberals get the bullet too". Are they as bad as Nazis? No. But they're horrible people regardless. Pneumonia may not be as deadly as Ebola, but you still don't want to catch it!

Direct question: if Antifa were to kill somebody, would you denounce them?
Eh, depends.

If there's someone trying to kill you or those you love there's a bit of wriggle room. In any case it'd take less than that for me to condemn them. I've said they do some dumb already. I just think with violent far right factions on the rise they can form a necesarry function for when the cops prefer to wait it out like they did in Charlottsville and Berkely.

Cops do their job properly, self defence against Nazis unecessary.

Anyway, it's high standards coming from someone who hasn't devoted any energy to condemning the right wing hordes in Charlotsville after they killed Heather!

I thought I did, but alright. Let it be known that I despise right-wing extremism, and that the crimes they commit are unacceptable. We good?
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on September 09, 2017, 09:18:16 pm
We aren't going to cuddle but I commend your statement!
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on September 13, 2017, 09:37:52 pm
This manual is fake af. I still don't like or trust ANTIFA/Black Bloc tactics. All fake evidence like this manges to do is turn them into a boogeyman who noone takes seriously instead of a political movement that can and should be critiqued.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: dpareja on September 15, 2017, 10:40:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-RKo1xhX1A

Matt Dillahunty on free speech, Milo, and punching Nazis.
Title: Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
Post by: SCarpelan on September 16, 2017, 10:04:22 am
Dillahunty is strawmanning the hate speech laws (at least the one we have in Finland) pretty badly. I do have my suspicions about if that kind of law would work in the American context with only two parties and an extremely politicized judicial system. These things make abusing the law or adjusting it to make it more vulnerable to abuse much easier. If any party or coalition would have enough political capital and power to change the legal definitions of protected groups (this definition applies to many laws) and/or what is "agitation against"* in a way that makes the law oppressive we would be in deep doo-doo since they would have broken our system so badly that not having so called hate speech law would not matter much. They could just make that law or any other oppressive law by themselves.

Also, he is just repeating the same arguments about punching Nazis and violence in general that have been presented and brings nothing new to this discussion.

* The current definition is dehumanization by either use of language (comparing to vermins etc.) or lying about facts to make generalizations. This is my, a non-lawyer's, approximate memory about the definition. The actual terms are defined in the law books and parliament's documentation when they made the law in a manner that makes it clear for a legal expert what the intention is.