Author Topic: Modding and What does it say about games  (Read 4280 times)

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Offline Material Defender

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Modding and What does it say about games
« on: November 13, 2012, 10:29:44 am »
So recently I've gotten back into Skyrim with the Skyrim redone mod that overhauls... basically everything. I'm playing a fistiecuffs warrior in heavy armor with a shield. Considering fistiecuffs wasn't a viable weapon and shields were hurr durr until you got a few perks in there before... well I consider it a bonus.

I'm just curious though really, what should we count modding towards on these kinds of games? I mean Crusader Kings 2 gave us a Game of Thrones Mod (It was perfectly built for one since it's basically all about murder, war, and other fun things.) Should modded games be removed from our judgment of the original product and have no bearing on how we rate it? Or should mods for a game be considered a bonus to the game since it enables this modification and that really enables player to enjoy the experience more? Or is it case by case, based on how easily this game incorporates mods (Say, X-Com compared to Bethesda Games) should we take those judgment.

I'm personally in the last camp. If the game expects and builds for modders, I'm willing to give a game a bonus (Like to its personal rating from me) for the modding community if its good. I gave Freespace 2 this and basically all of Elder Scrolls and Fallout games produced by zenimax. But if I have to go in and do manual file adjustments and revamps, I feel like I'm replacing the game, not modding it.

So what do others think?
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 11:42:32 am »
This is a tough one. I think that, if we're going to add mods into our opinion of a certain game, we should consider, as MD said, whether or not the game was build with modding in mind, though in cases where games are not designed for this, it may be a good idea to judge the mod on its own, especially in cases of total conversion mods. By the same token, any mod that claims to "fix" things in the original game that players don't like, or perhaps wanted to see, can only really be judged well in comparison to the original game, the community's hopes & expectations, and the modder's ability to bring it all together. Some Unreal Tournament games, if I'm not mistaken, are designed to be modder-friendly, and tend to be good games on their own (at least, the ones I've played have been enjoyable). Strategy games, or at least the ones I play, don't tend to be built for modding, and can feel like totally different games after installing a mod.

One mod I've greatly enjoyed lately is for Command & Conquer 3, and claims to be the game that C&C3 should have been. I was completely sold on this claim after about half an hour. Nearly every memorable unit from the prequel games was brought back, modernized, and equipped with new upgrades and abilities that you'd expect after as much as 50yrs since the last time they entered the battlefield. Unit voices from old and new games across the C&C universe have been integrated, and the models of the new units, as well as enhancements of new ones, are so well done that someone who'd never seen the original game would believe they'd always been there. To make things better, the mod's designer is constantly working on new features, upgrades, and balances, and does such a good job that the mod never needs to be patched to keep one faction from having some dominating superweapon that that others can't do anything about.
In fairness to the glowing praise this mod gets within its respective community, I should note that C&C3 was kind of a let down for fans of the series such as myself. As I said above, many original units (mostly walkers that look like AT-ATs/STs on steroids) were removed in lieu of more "realistic" post-modern military weapons, and an entire faction went from "World superpower that rivaled the United Nations" to "quasi-religious fanatics with big toys". While the original is a decent game in its own right, EA's effort to make the game more realistic went against the somewhat comically absurd and self aware arsenal the series is known for, at least when they didn't make some designs that were impractical by even C&C's standards (lookin' at you, Stealth and Scorpion Tanks).
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Offline TheL

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 09:12:52 am »
I think games and their mods should be judged separately.  Sometimes the original game is great, but the mod is brain-breakingly bad.

Or a joke mod can take a game that wasn't very good, or has simply lost its novelty, and make it fun again.

As long as people aren't getting illegal copies of the game to make their mods from, and aren't selling skinning mods as a whole new game*, I honestly don't see any problem with modding in general.  I just don't play them much myself.

Of course, when an X-rated mod like Hot Coffee** happens, idiotic Moral Crusaders are going to make really dumb decisions again.  Like you couldn't already use your computer to find better porn of video game characters anyway.


* I'm still not sure where the line is.  Somewhere between "Shitty, Buggy Recolor of Sonic 2 to look like you're playing as Mighty the Armadillo!!" and "I Wanna Be The Guy," but where?

** Linking to Maddox's version of events, because the news didn't treat the Hot Coffee Incident with nearly the contempt it deserved.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 11:12:44 am »
Oblivion Modders making people nude forced Bethesda to change, after release, the ESRB from T to M. Bethesda promptly stop giving a shit about their ESRB rating and every game since has been M from the get go.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 11:45:51 am »
I still play Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. Both games were built with modding in mind. Honestly, if it wasn't for the class packs, I wouldn't play either game as much as I do. But with so many options, I want to keep playing, just to try out something new.

I play Skyrim on the 360, so can't use mods. But I've seen people talk about mods that just sound awesome. But again, the game was built with mods in mind.

IMO, mods help a game. So I'm going to agree with TheL...

I think games and their mods should be judged separately.  Sometimes the original game is great, but the mod is brain-breakingly bad.

Or a joke mod can take a game that wasn't very good, or has simply lost its novelty, and make it fun again.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 01:18:22 pm »
Modding makes business sense. With a large enough dedicated player base the fans will fix bugs and implement new features for free. Look at the Bethesda games, look at the lengths fans went through to make the game not crappy: look at Project Nevada, look at FWE AND LEARN FROM IT.

For fuck's sake look at what S.T.A.L.K.E.R. People's Soup has become!

Look at the options to establish good PR and good relations with the fan base. JE Sawyer mod for example.


Oblivion Modders making people nude forced Bethesda to change, after release, the ESRB from T to M. Bethesda promptly stop giving a shit about their ESRB rating and every game since has been M from the get go.

The ESRB and other rating systems are a bad joke that keeps being retold.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:50 pm »
www.hardlight.net Is the home to many, even full conversion, mods for Freespace 2. It may have been the last commercial AAA tread of the space fighter, but the fact that the terms of agreement allowed sharing it for non-commercial purposes and the makers released the source engine (Allowing modders to do ANYTHING to the game), it has become one of the most modded games ever. This is 10 years after the fact.

Provided, at the moment the site is down apparently. But that happens.
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Offline largeham

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 01:45:49 am »
Eh, I like a game with good modding possibilities. It allows for users to change things they don't like and expand on the game. Of course, it can just mean that the creator/publisher will do a half-assed job and expect the users to finish the job, but it is something I can't remember happening.

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 02:20:21 am »
Some games get a second life due to great mods, freespace is a good example of a game that was updated by the fans. Fallout 2 also has an amazing mod that added all the stuff the developers didn't have time to do (They got rushed by the company and were forced to release an incomplete game... Although their own update did make it playable and it was a great game even without the extra bits they didn't have time to implement.)

As for should modding be easy in a game? Well some developers do add a modding tool with the release and I do appreciate when they help the modding community with that but I do not think that it should be mandatory. Basically I think that it is a plus if the developers appreciate and help the modding community in their games (increasing popularity and helping the producers as well.) 

On the other hand there are of course games that are not suited for modding (MMORPGs for example) and if the developers feel that they have no need to assist the modders by giving them tools or even try to prevent modding I think they have the right to do that as well. The games are their intellectual property and I really can't deny that they have the right to some control over their use.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 02:35:00 am »
I know that, should I ever release a game, I'm definitely packaging it with mod tools.  Why?  Because I've seen how modding can breathe new life into an old game: Thief, System Shock 2, Civilization, Minecraft (not old, but an assload of mods out there to keep you coming back day after day), The Sims, Battlefield, Ultima Online...the list goes on.  Mods boost popularity and give your game a longer lifespan, and bring in new customers who are attracted to modding things just for the sake of making a good mod, making something people enjoy.

Hell, Thief 2 has hundreds of fan missions out there, and several full, fan-made campaigns.  Some are garbage, some are middling, and some, the ones that stand out the most and get downloaded most often, are absolute gems, the standard to which other fan projects are oftentimes held.

And...one need only look at Counter Strike to see how a single good mod can actually give you a chance at employment, or at least royalties.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 03:38:46 am »
I adore games that can be modded. Skyrim and Dragon Age have some lovely ones out there...
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 03:45:18 am »
I'm fond of games, but games with modding in mind when they're making it? all the better.  Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind, Thief II, WoW, I've heard some fans got together and patched the SHIT out of Sonic 2006 so the game is playable as it should have been... oh yes, they're loved, but still OPTIONAL, and that's the beauty of it.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 05:54:43 am »
I know that, should I ever release a game, I'm definitely packaging it with mod tools.  Why?  Because I've seen how modding can breathe new life into an old game: Thief, System Shock 2, Civilization, Minecraft (not old, but an assload of mods out there to keep you coming back day after day), The Sims, Battlefield, Ultima Online...the list goes on.  Mods boost popularity and give your game a longer lifespan, and bring in new customers who are attracted to modding things just for the sake of making a good mod, making something people enjoy.

Hell, Thief 2 has hundreds of fan missions out there, and several full, fan-made campaigns.  Some are garbage, some are middling, and some, the ones that stand out the most and get downloaded most often, are absolute gems, the standard to which other fan projects are oftentimes held.

And...one need only look at Counter Strike to see how a single good mod can actually give you a chance at employment, or at least royalties.
This pretty much sums up my view on the matter. Mods really are great and in my opinion are the biggest advantage by far that PC has over consoles.

Really, the only downside for a developer is that top-notch player made add ons can be seen as an alternative to DLC by some players, resulting in a small short-term sales reduction. Though this is of course more than offset by the fact that it boosts overall sales of the game far into the future.

Hell, just look at how many people bought Warcraft III just to play DotA, or ArmA II just to play Day Z, or how many people are still buying Arcanum even to this day because of a fan-made patch that removes the lion's share of that veritable hive of bugs from that game. It's basically free content for your game, what the fuck is there not to love about it?

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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 10:34:38 am »
This pretty much sums up my view on the matter. Mods really are great and in my opinion are the biggest advantage by far that PC has over consoles.

Really, the only downside for a developer is that top-notch player made add ons can be seen as an alternative to DLC by some players, resulting in a small short-term sales reduction. Though this is of course more than offset by the fact that it boosts overall sales of the game far into the future.

Hell, just look at how many people bought Warcraft III just to play DotA, or ArmA II just to play Day Z, or how many people are still buying Arcanum even to this day because of a fan-made patch that removes the lion's share of that veritable hive of bugs from that game. It's basically free content for your game, what the fuck is there not to love about it?

I will say. That reasoning, bolded above, is the main reason I think that COD MW went to the restrictive server types and straight up removed dedicated servers. Without doing that they could never sell maps to the PC crowd. They'd just make a modded map that looked the same with a few tweaks to make it 'different enough.' THey probably knew that in MW1 when they charged the consoles for the map pack while PC got it for free. There was much face rubbing in my console buddies after that one. I will say, I'm still boycotting the Modern Warfare series for removing server browsing and mod support for on line play.

Trying to make that statement above without expressing amazing rage is hard. I was a COD vet from 1 and 2, I loved the series and thought the console only romps were a terrible waste of time (Also sold poorly). Yet having to import the batshit loonacy from the Consoles for MW2 just drove me up the wall. MW2 should have given dedicated servers TO consoles, not taken them away from PC. Because I know they exist, Killzone 2 and 3 had dedicated servers. Of course, that's not going into how freaking silly the story got in 2. I could have made a better story if I had tried. I wanted to say sleep, but my dreams get pretty weird.
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Re: Modding and What does it say about games
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 05:12:57 pm »
I think that's actually the main reason why Skyrim developers didn't give the modders the entire modding kit, so that the DLC they release can be unique enough to actually be worth buying.
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