Author Topic: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere  (Read 11877 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« on: August 08, 2015, 09:55:28 am »
I'm increasingly of the opinion that free speech needs to be defended in the private sphere, as well as the public.  Censorship is increasingly coming from private individuals and companies that control major points of discussion.  In my book, this is very worrisome, and something has to be done.

But I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Offline rookie

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2015, 10:05:54 am »
Explain please. Protecting from what? And how do you do this without violating someone else's free speech? Can you go into a little bit of detail about what you mean?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 10:11:41 am by rookie »
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2015, 10:45:06 am »
Explain please. Protecting from what? And how do you do this without violating someone else's free speech? Can you go into a little bit of detail about what you mean?

I mean giving everybody a legitimate platform to express their opinions.  Fact is, if we don't believe in free speech for people we despise, then we don't believe in it at all.  I think that private citizens and companies running major discussion areas have the same moral obligation not to censor ideas (even unpopular and unsavory ones) as governments.

Offline TheL

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2015, 10:48:42 am »
OK.  So...we live in a world in which you can, free of charge, create your own blog and say whatever you want to on it.  You can even find other webspaces full of like-minded people to discuss whatever you want.  If you write enough stuff to justify binding it, you can even go to any self-publishing website and make your words into an actual, physical BOOK, without having to go through editors and the like.

These are all private services, not run by the government.  So, how exactly is free speech being infringed?
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2015, 03:55:43 pm »
Explain please. Protecting from what? And how do you do this without violating someone else's free speech? Can you go into a little bit of detail about what you mean?

I mean giving everybody a legitimate platform to express their opinions.  Fact is, if we don't believe in free speech for people we despise, then we don't believe in it at all.  I think that private citizens and companies running major discussion areas have the same moral obligation not to censor ideas (even unpopular and unsavory ones) as governments.

Complicated.

The fact is, as TheL says, we live in a world where access to a platform is trivial (assuming you have access to the internet in the first place, of course, but if you don't then your problem isn't censorship). Anyone can make their own Wordpress or post on Tumblr or whatever.

But those are platforms provided by companies. What happens if Wordpress and Tumblr and whatever start heavily monitoring blogs and blocking those expressing point of view X? Well, the entry barriers to making your own website are pretty low, so with a minimum of money and technical skills you can still do your own thing and you still have a platform.

But hosting is also provided by companies. And a website is not much of a platform if nobody knows it's there. So what happens if nobody wants to sell you hosting, and Google doesn't show your website on their search results? What if nobody wants to print your fliers, or sell you a machine to print your own, or...?

Taken to the limit, if everyone refuses to do any sort of business with you based on your point of view then yes, you're fucked. Among other things because you have to move to the wilderness and live off Mother Nature and that leaves very little time for writing political treatises.

But we are nowhere near that sort of limit yet, and I don't expect we ever will be. While free speech requires that everyone have access to a platform, it does not require any specific platform to cater to any specific individual. We have enough diversity of them that it's unlikely that no platform will take you.

Requiring that companies and private individuals that happen to control one major platform give access to that platform to every point of view seems excessive. I mean, it would be nice if they did, in my opinion, but if they don't want to then they don't.


I do believe in promoting the value of free speech among private individuals, because of the risk of active censorship (as in taking specific actions against people who voice some opinion to shut them up, rather than just wanting them to go voice their opinion somewhere else). But I don't think lack of access to platforms is a problem right now or in the foreseeable future.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2015, 06:21:23 pm »
Explain please. Protecting from what? And how do you do this without violating someone else's free speech? Can you go into a little bit of detail about what you mean?

Getting sacked for disagreeing with your boss f'rinstance.
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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2015, 06:53:02 pm »
Hate to say this but a private business can pick and choose what viewpoints it wants to be seen on it's space.  To quote Confucius as he said to Voltaire, "Free speech doesn’t mean just keep yapping".  Free speech isn't just somebody yapping.  It only applies to government coming in and saying, "oh you can't say that."  That infringes on free speech.  A private company that provides you with a space deciding they don't want you to use that space anymore?  That doesn't infringe on free speech.  Nobody says you have to have a platform for your words.  Just that the government can't say you can't say that anymore.

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2015, 07:32:02 pm »
Hate to say this but a private business can pick and choose what viewpoints it wants to be seen on it's space.  To quote Confucius as he said to Voltaire, "Free speech doesn’t mean just keep yapping".  Free speech isn't just somebody yapping.  It only applies to government coming in and saying, "oh you can't say that."  That infringes on free speech.  A private company that provides you with a space deciding they don't want you to use that space anymore?  That doesn't infringe on free speech.  Nobody says you have to have a platform for your words.  Just that the government can't say you can't say that anymore.

Ironbite-clear as mud?

Actually, the founders avoided defining free speech to keep its meaning broad:

Quote from: Alexander Hamilton
What is the liberty of the press? Who can give it any definition which would not leave the utmost latitude for evasion? I hold it to be impracticable;...

And there's already Supreme Court precedent:

Quote from: SCOTUS
Liberty of circulating is as essential to that freedom as liberty of publishing; indeed, without the circulation, the publication would be of little value.

But then again, I'm not an originalist, so maybe I should look to a more recent source.  Such as the ACLU:

Quote from: American Civil Liberties Union
Network neutrality is a consumer issue, but it is also one of the foremost free speech issues of our time. Freedom of expression isn’t worth much if the forums where people actually make use of it are not themselves free.

Or how about Aaron Swartz?

Quote from: Aaron Swartz
Both the government and private companies can censor stuff, but private companies are a little bit scarier because they have no constitution to answer to, they're not elected, they don't have constituents or voters.

Hell, it's even defended in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights!

Quote from: UN
Article 19 - Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

In the age of the Internet, we're increasingly seeing that governments can't really restrict speech or censor content very effectively.  Government censorship of the Internet will either rely on nobody being able to access it (i.e. North Korea), or a tremendous infrastructure that most countries aren't willing to create (i.e. China).  Anything other than that only serves to be laughed about in high school lunchrooms.

But corporations still have the power.  The Internet's infrastructure is heavily controlled by big business.  Governments regulate the actions of big corporations to prevent them from seizing control of the entirety of a marketplace, thus encouraging competition and keeping industries healthy; similarly, forums and other platforms should allow for open talk of dissenting opinions, so as to keep an open marketplace of ideas, lest discussion become stagnant.

Freedom of speech only means something if you have access to a platform.  Freedom means nothing if you can't make any use of it.  What good is the freedom to attend school if you can't afford the fees?  What good is the freedom to work if there are no jobs available?  What good is the right to a fair trial if you can't afford legal representation?  Fact is, free speech is a fundamental human right, one that nobody can infringe on.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 07:34:23 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2015, 10:25:11 pm »
Hate to say this but a private business can pick and choose what viewpoints it wants to be seen on it's space.  To quote Confucius as he said to Voltaire, "Free speech doesn’t mean just keep yapping".  Free speech isn't just somebody yapping.  It only applies to government coming in and saying, "oh you can't say that."  That infringes on free speech.  A private company that provides you with a space deciding they don't want you to use that space anymore?  That doesn't infringe on free speech.  Nobody says you have to have a platform for your words.  Just that the government can't say you can't say that anymore.

Ironbite-clear as mud?

It's a pretty silly dichotomy. What matters is the results, not the identity of the perpetrator.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2015, 01:07:41 am »
Hate to say this but a private business can pick and choose what viewpoints it wants to be seen on it's space.  To quote Confucius as he said to Voltaire, "Free speech doesn’t mean just keep yapping".  Free speech isn't just somebody yapping.  It only applies to government coming in and saying, "oh you can't say that."  That infringes on free speech.  A private company that provides you with a space deciding they don't want you to use that space anymore?  That doesn't infringe on free speech.  Nobody says you have to have a platform for your words.  Just that the government can't say you can't say that anymore.

Ironbite-clear as mud?

Is this USA only conversation? Because I know that USA defines free speech as something that only the government can violate but it is not the same in all the countries on Earth. For example, the Finnish government can order a web-magazine to remove articles that violate free speech (and each article must have a clearly defined reporter that wrote it so that in case of violations there is a clear culprit. Sources can still be anonymous as is the habit in the press but there has to be someone who takes the responsibility of any article.)
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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2015, 09:35:06 pm »
It's a pretty silly dichotomy. What matters is the results, not the identity of the perpetrator.

Corporate censorship can be routed around, but the government is omnipresent. Not being able to post it on Facebook is not the same thing as not being able to say it at all.

The Internet itself, however, is government-sponsored, which makes it a lot like the postal service or telephone network. So self-hosting is always an option.

Offline rookie

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 08:38:53 am »
Getting sacked for disagreeing with your boss f'rinstance.

Disagreeing with your boss? Or not doing what your boss says to do? Because most bosses I've worked for have no problem with disagreements. Pull them aside and say Hey Boss, I don't think this is right because of reasons. Most of the time, I've had it explained to me why. Pretty simple really, workers work better when they know why they're doing whatever. Not doing it anyways comes dangerously close to insubordination. Now sure, I can't go to my social media site of choice and start blasting the company I work for. I signed a piece of paper saying as much when I was hired. I want their money, I follow their rules. Same reason I wear a shirt and shoes when I pop into the Kwiki Mart for a soda and a pack of cigarettes. I fail to see a problem with that. To that, we have a department who's sole job is to look at situations and see what rules and laws may have been violated. HR they're called. And at any point if anyone feels they were not treated right we can register a complaint with them and they talk to everyone who was involved, anyone who saw what happened, security cameras, and if there are any party problems with either party.

When we're talking about platforms, there's always a platform available. The local homeless drug addict makes pretty good use of the street corner. As someone, I forget who, said you're free to start your own web page or blog. You can self publish your manifesto and third class mail it out to ransom addresses. Dial random numbers, knock on random doors, hire a sky writer, billboards, paint your car with bullet points of your message and drive around, print out a pamphlet and hand it out. The platforms are there. With a little imagination, you can reach people.

Most sites where you can post things come with a terms of service thing you're supposed to click on before you can start spouting off at the keyboard. Those terms of service, let's call then the rules you're to follow if you wish to continue using the site. They say right in there that violations of the terms of user or service will result in the content removed or even the not being allowed to use the service in the future. And we all click on it. Fred and UP, direct question to you specifically. Would those terms of service infringe on your rights of free speech?

General question to nobody in particular. Does anyone here feel that people must stop and listen? That people have to agree with you, or even take you seriously?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 08:47:01 am by rookie »
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 04:23:45 pm »
Getting sacked for disagreeing with your boss f'rinstance.

Disagreeing with your boss? Or not doing what your boss says to do?

Both.  I know a lady who was a disability advocate, basically a lawyer fighting for the rights of those with physical and/or mental disabilities: autism, PTSD, deafness, missing limbs, etc.  She was fired from that job, a job she'd had for, as I understand it, most of her working life, because she dared question the morality of a decision made by someone that outranked her.  Management, in many cases, has it in their head that any questioning of their decisions is a direct threat to their authority, a threat that must be dealt with quickly and brutally, to keep the peasants in line.  I mean, after all, we should be grateful that they give us a means to live in the first place.  Who are we to question our betters?

Because most bosses I've worked for have no problem with disagreements. Pull them aside and say Hey Boss, I don't think this is right because of reasons. Most of the time, I've had it explained to me why. Pretty simple really, workers work better when they know why they're doing whatever.

You have, at least from what I've gathered, been quite lucky, then.  The "loser dickhead boss" trope is common for a reason, after all.

Not doing it anyways comes dangerously close to insubordination. Now sure, I can't go to my social media site of choice and start blasting the company I work for. I signed a piece of paper saying as much when I was hired. I want their money, I follow their rules. Same reason I wear a shirt and shoes when I pop into the Kwiki Mart for a soda and a pack of cigarettes. I fail to see a problem with that. To that, we have a department who's sole job is to look at situations and see what rules and laws may have been violated. HR they're called. And at any point if anyone feels they were not treated right we can register a complaint with them and they talk to everyone who was involved, anyone who saw what happened, security cameras, and if there are any party problems with either party.

HR is basically the arm of corporate.  In my experience, as well as what I've heard and gathered from others, they aren't there to help unless the problem directly affects the company's bottom line, somehow.  So, your meathead coworker being a dickweed jock will only get a slap on the wrist, if that, whereas said jock sexually harassing Jan from accounting will have him in sensitivity classes and/or outright fired, because sexual harassment suits are expensive.  If you snitch, there's also the chance that it'll blow back on to you.  "Non-retaliation" policies are basically words and are rarely enforced, except against people of equal or lower rank to you.

When we're talking about platforms, there's always a platform available. The local homeless drug addict makes pretty good use of the street corner. As someone, I forget who, said you're free to start your own web page or blog. You can self publish your manifesto and third class mail it out to ransom addresses. Dial random numbers, knock on random doors, hire a sky writer, billboards, paint your car with bullet points of your message and drive around, print out a pamphlet and hand it out. The platforms are there. With a little imagination, you can reach people.

You can still get fired for those things, too.  The problem isn't that you chose the wrong venue, the problem is that you rocked the boat.  Corporations don't want people on the inside potentially airing out their dirty laundry.  They don't want people who might bring cause for change.  Change is time consuming and, more importantly, expensive.  Meek pushovers don't make waves.  If you have pride or self-respect, you'd better be good at hiding it, because they will crush it out of you by force, or simply make up a reason to remove you from the corporate equation.  Timid people, those afraid to voice their ideas, are less likely to effect change and are, thus, cheaper than assertive, dominant individuals.

General question to nobody in particular. Does anyone here feel that people must stop and listen? That people have to agree with you, or even take you seriously?

No.  To all of them.  You don't have to like me or agree with me or even think I'm a real person.  However, speaking on a social site, or any public forum, should not be punishable by losing one's source of income.  What I do in my off time is my business.  It should not matter if I'm a racist, a sexist, or a rampant homophobe, so long as I don't cause undue grief on my coworkers and get the fucking job done.  If you smoke dope and listen to the Grateful Dead when you're not working, if I were your boss, I would not care.  Its not my place to care.  So long as it doesn't affect the quality of your work, so long as it doesn't create a hostile work environment, it should not matter.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 02:45:38 am »
If anyone saw what was here, I apologize for being flippant.

First of all Ravy, I'm not exactly sure where you got that I was lucky in having good bosses. That's certainly not the case. But when I've had enough I got a job somewhere better. And it's all been a compromise on something. But I need money more than I need to blast work online. Or a beard. Or to smoe weed at one point. It's one thing to call out what injustices. But I'm not strong enough to starve for my principles. I did it once, didn't care for it too much.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 02:54:18 am by rookie »
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Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Askold

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Re: Defending Free Speech in the Private Sphere
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 04:09:12 am »
Freedom of speech has been on the news in Finland as well. Some of the biggest newspapers in the country have shut down comment sections on their websites because of all the hate speech and general low quality of comments.

Or as the people who are the reason for this shutdown said "This is starting to look like USA! They are shutting down all debates that they don't like because they can't counter our arguments! Now they'll just flood us with lies and propaganda about the illegal-asylum seekers and get is into NATO so that we will be forced to suck American cocks."
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!