Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 16389 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2018, 10:19:49 am »
Tell me, how old was John XXIII when he called Vatican II? Unless you're saying the conspiracy goes way back, I somehow don't give too much credence to your notion.

EDIT: And, variously, what you're saying amounts to...










« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:56:04 am by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2018, 12:17:43 pm »
Tell me, how old was John XXIII when he called Vatican II? Unless you're saying the conspiracy goes way back, I somehow don't give too much credence to your notion.

EDIT: And, variously, what you're saying amounts to...











He was very old by then, and was ordained in the clergy in 1904. So I guess was the beginning of the corrupt infiltration. The pedophile scandal goes back to at least the 1940s.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2018, 12:32:49 pm »
And this is how faith destroys intellectual honesty--refusing to accept any facts that contradict what you want to be true.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2018, 12:41:38 pm »
And this is how faith destroys intellectual honesty--refusing to accept any facts that contradict what you want to be true.

How am I refusing to accept facts. I acknowledge that the pedophile scandal began at a certain time before Vatican II.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2018, 12:45:33 pm »
And this is how faith destroys intellectual honesty--refusing to accept any facts that contradict what you want to be true.

How am I refusing to accept facts. I acknowledge that the pedophile scandal began at a certain time before Vatican II.

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that the problem goes deeper than just doctrinal laxity.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2018, 12:56:38 pm »
And this is how faith destroys intellectual honesty--refusing to accept any facts that contradict what you want to be true.

How am I refusing to accept facts. I acknowledge that the pedophile scandal began at a certain time before Vatican II.

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that the problem goes deeper than just doctrinal laxity.

It is the main problem because the corrupt clergy are not enforcing their own doctrine that forbids rape. Another problem is a lack of vetting when ordaining priests.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:02:19 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2018, 01:06:13 pm »
Have you read the Grand Jury report? (I'm at p. 306.) This was systemic, motivated by a desire to protect the image of the Church, aided by the (misplaced and unearned) esteem in which the public held religion and religious institutions.

And we know it's going on inside other Christian sects that certainly don't follow the precepts of Vatican II--the Anglican Church, the Society of St. Pius X, various Eastern Orthodox Churches, and Jehovah's Witnesses, just to name a few.

This is, if anything, a problem with the doctrine itself, not a problem with doctrinal laxity.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2018, 01:10:16 pm »
Dude...priests have been using their positions of authority to abuse their flocks for ages.  This isn't something that Vatican 2 was the result of.

Ironbite-but hey...faith keeps you insulated from the facts right?

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2018, 01:14:24 pm »
Quote
This grand jury exists because Pennsylvania dioceses routinely hid reports of child sex crimes while the statutes of limitations for those crimes expired. We just do not understand why that should be allowed to happen. If child abusers knew they could never become immune for their crimes by outrunning the statute of limitations, maybe there would be less child abuse.

We know our statute of limitations has been extended recently, so that now abusers can potentially be prosecuted until the victim reaches age 50. And that's good. It just doesn't help a lot of the victims we saw. No piece of legislation can predict the point at which a victim of child sex abuse will find the strength to come forward. And no victim can know whether anyone will believe her, or how long she will have to wait for justice.

If that seems hard to understand, think about Julianne. She was taught without question that priests are superior to other adults, even superior to her own parents - because "they are God in the flesh." So when one of these flesh gods [OMITTED], who was she going to tell? Julianne was 14 when she was assaulted; now she's almost 70.

Or Joe from Scranton. At the time he couldn't find anyone who was willing to hear about the [OMITTED] priest who told him to take off his pants and get into bed. It took 55 years before he found us.

Or Bob, from Reading. He told us "there is not a day that goes by" that he doesn't think about what happened to him. He can't bear to be touched by a man, not even to shake hands, or to hug his own sons. He never reported it, because he thought "I was the only one." But if he could still put that priest on trial, even now, he would. "Somebody has to be accountable," he told us. "This has to stop." Bob is 83.

So yes, we say no statute of limitations at all. Not for this kind of crime. And it's not like we are asking for anything that unusual. It turns out that this is the rule in well over half the states across the country: no free pass for serious sexual violation of children, no matter how long it takes. That includes almost every state in our region, except us. If we lived in New Jersey, or Delaware, or New York or Maryland, we would today be issuing a presentment charging dozens of priests. But because we happen to live here instead, the number is two. Not something for Pennsylvania to be proud of.

(omissions and emphasis mine; pp. 310-311)

EDIT:

Quote
We wonder how [the Church and its insurance companies] decide how much is "too much." Maybe they should meet with Al, as we did. Al was abused in sixth grade by a priest who put him in a locked room, [OMITTED]. He managed to slip away and tried hiding under a desk, but the priest found him and told him he would go to hell if he ever told anyone. Afterward, Al flunked the sixth grade and had to repeat it. He began drinking, working up to as much as a bottle of whiskey a day. He started scratching his genitals so hard they would bleed. He thought he must be gay, which made him a mortal sinner. He tried joining the Navy, but was diagnosed with PTSD and eventually discharged. He tried to kill himself on multiple occasions, most recently by hanging himself with a coaxial cable. He was institutionalized in the locked ward of a psychiatric hospital. He wanted to keep going to church, but he would become nauseous and have to throw up when he entered the building.

Maybe, if he'd had money for good medical and psychological resources, Al's life wouldn't have been quite so hard after that priest knocked it off track. Maybe, if he could file a lawsuit now, he could make up for some of the pain and suffering. We wonder what people would think is "too much" money if it had been one of their kids. Al should get his two years back.

(omission and emphasis mine; pp. 312-313)

This is not doctrinal laxity. This is a problem with the doctrine itself.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:19:42 pm by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2018, 01:24:30 pm »
Quote
This grand jury exists because Pennsylvania dioceses routinely hid reports of child sex crimes while the statutes of limitations for those crimes expired. We just do not understand why that should be allowed to happen. If child abusers knew they could never become immune for their crimes by outrunning the statute of limitations, maybe there would be less child abuse.

We know our statute of limitations has been extended recently, so that now abusers can potentially be prosecuted until the victim reaches age 50. And that's good. It just doesn't help a lot of the victims we saw. No piece of legislation can predict the point at which a victim of child sex abuse will find the strength to come forward. And no victim can know whether anyone will believe her, or how long she will have to wait for justice.

If that seems hard to understand, think about Julianne. She was taught without question that priests are superior to other adults, even superior to her own parents - because "they are God in the flesh." So when one of these flesh gods [OMITTED], who was she going to tell? Julianne was 14 when she was assaulted; now she's almost 70.

Or Joe from Scranton. At the time he couldn't find anyone who was willing to hear about the [OMITTED] priest who told him to take off his pants and get into bed. It took 55 years before he found us.

Or Bob, from Reading. He told us "there is not a day that goes by" that he doesn't think about what happened to him. He can't bear to be touched by a man, not even to shake hands, or to hug his own sons. He never reported it, because he thought "I was the only one." But if he could still put that priest on trial, even now, he would. "Somebody has to be accountable," he told us. "This has to stop." Bob is 83.

So yes, we say no statute of limitations at all. Not for this kind of crime. And it's not like we are asking for anything that unusual. It turns out that this is the rule in well over half the states across the country: no free pass for serious sexual violation of children, no matter how long it takes. That includes almost every state in our region, except us. If we lived in New Jersey, or Delaware, or New York or Maryland, we would today be issuing a presentment charging dozens of priests. But because we happen to live here instead, the number is two. Not something for Pennsylvania to be proud of.

(omissions and emphasis mine; pp. 310-311)

EDIT:

Quote
We wonder how [the Church and its insurance companies] decide how much is "too much." Maybe they should meet with Al, as we did. Al was abused in sixth grade by a priest who put him in a locked room, [OMITTED]. He managed to slip away and tried hiding under a desk, but the priest found him and told him he would go to hell if he ever told anyone. Afterward, Al flunked the sixth grade and had to repeat it. He began drinking, working up to as much as a bottle of whiskey a day. He started scratching his genitals so hard they would bleed. He thought he must be gay, which made him a mortal sinner. He tried joining the Navy, but was diagnosed with PTSD and eventually discharged. He tried to kill himself on multiple occasions, most recently by hanging himself with a coaxial cable. He was institutionalized in the locked ward of a psychiatric hospital. He wanted to keep going to church, but he would become nauseous and have to throw up when he entered the building.

Maybe, if he'd had money for good medical and psychological resources, Al's life wouldn't have been quite so hard after that priest knocked it off track. Maybe, if he could file a lawsuit now, he could make up for some of the pain and suffering. We wonder what people would think is "too much" money if it had been one of their kids. Al should get his two years back.

(omission and emphasis mine; pp. 312-313)

This is not doctrinal laxity. This is a problem with the doctrine itself.

How is it a problem with doctrine. The Priest who did that to Al was violating Catholic Doctrine that rape is a serious sin.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2018, 01:30:05 pm »
It's a problem with the doctrine that's taught to the laity, and also a problem with internal Church doctrine that elevated protecting the Church itself above protecting the laity or the public at large.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2018, 01:46:58 pm »
It's a problem with the doctrine that's taught to the laity, and also a problem with internal Church doctrine that elevated protecting the Church itself above protecting the laity or the public at large.

I don’t see how the doctrine taught to laity itself is a part of the problem. It is a problem when the priests abuse their positions of power. What the Church needs is those above them to defrock them which hopefully will happen after a future noble person becomes Pope in the future and purges the pedophiles and those who cover for them.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2018, 01:51:21 pm »
The doctrine taught to the laity enables abusive priests, because it makes the laity afraid to question them and their actions.

As for a "noble" Pope, no Pope would dare do that because it would expose the sheer moral depravity of the Church and bring the entire institution into irreparable disrepute. Nobody would trust that all the offenders had been purged.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2018, 02:37:28 pm »
The doctrine taught to the laity enables abusive priests, because it makes the laity afraid to question them and their actions.

As for a "noble" Pope, no Pope would dare do that because it would expose the sheer moral depravity of the Church and bring the entire institution into irreparable disrepute. Nobody would trust that all the offenders had been purged.

There might be some people who want to stop the abuse by infiltrating the Church and becoming Pope. When a zero tolerance policy is adopted, the laity will know that they can report the actions of priests to higher ups in the church.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2018, 02:58:25 pm »
They've tried reporting the abuse to higher-ups in the Church, it's been ignored. What needs to happen is that the Church needs to make it very, very plain that not only can the laity report abuse to secular authorities, they should and must. (As should the Church itself.)

The Catholic Church can no longer be trusted to police itself.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.