Author Topic: The New Korean War: Discuss it here  (Read 42134 times)

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Offline chitoryu12

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The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« on: March 08, 2013, 06:49:58 pm »
This is split off from this thread, as I got to talking at length about the military aspect of the ensuing clusterfuck and some people agreed with me on making a separate thread regarding it.

So, as a forward, this thread is dedicated to a detailed discussion on the impending (trust me, it's impending) conflict between North Korea and South Korea. And everyone else, but most prominently the United States. This is the place to discuss the technological capabilities, from pistols to nuclear weapons (for the first time in a while, a factor in the war), tactics and doctrine, grand strategy, and even discuss what you would do in particular scenarios. For the military minded, this is a good way to stretch your brain and discuss probably the most realistic future conflict in current debating history. For those without such an interest, it may be illuminating to read it for your own benefit and come to a better understanding of the realities of the war and what may happen. And considering the advent of nuclear arms in this conflict, how it may affect you.

I'll begin with a discussion of the militaries, namely by comparing weapons from each side: North Korea, South Korea, and the United States of America. Other nations may be added as pleased: North Korea's angered a lot of people, and at the very least NATO will get involved. Should worst come to worst and a conventional war begin, it will be a very international affair.
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 06:55:11 pm »
It'll be the live version Team America: World Police.
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There are a number of ways, though my favourite is simply to take them by surprise. They're just walking down the street, minding their own business when suddenly, WHACK! Penis to the face.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2013, 09:01:52 pm »
It'll be the live version Team America: World Police.
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Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 09:25:00 pm »
Quote
United States[/n]

Heckler & Koch MP5: THE modern submachine gun, and the one that set the standard for high quality. Typical "first generation" SMGs were well-made with wooden furniture (often taken directly from bolt-action rifles) and meant for assault usage. World War II brought about the second generation of cheaply made guns, often of stamped metal and plastic, and meant to be churned out in massive numbers to arm as many people as possible. The MP5 was essentially the start of the current generation, where submachine guns were meant to be accurate and high quality as well as reliable.

The MP5 is a miniaturized G3 battle rifle, using the same roller-locked delayed blowback mechanism that dates back to the famous MG-42 machine gun of the Nazis. In typical German style, it's well-engineered and superbly accurate (enough to be commonly fitted with optical sights, even occasionally magnifying ones). It comes in a number of variants, typically characterized by having either a telescopic or fixed stock, and the most modern ones have a pictograph fire selector with semi-auto, full auto, and 3-round burst capabilities. The MP5SD includes an integral silencer, much like the K7 of South Korea, while the MP5K is small enough to fit under a jacket and is used by both special forces and vehicle and aircraft crews. The MP5 is used by special forces and police units worldwide and is essentially the pinnacle of modern SMG technology.

Heckler & Koch MP7: The main competitor to the FN P90 in the modern category of "personal defense weapon", the MP7 and P90 both share a cartridge design: a high velocity pistol cartridge, designed as a miniature rifle cartridge, meant for piercing body armor. The MP7 uses a 4.6x30mm round, not used by any other firearm in the world, to do just that. The "personal defense weapon", or PDW, is a new category of firearm meant to be used as (obviously) a weapon for individual defense by soldiers who can't carry a full size rifle, like truck drivers and rear echelon personnel. There's a variety of designs, going up to ultracompact assault rifles, but the P90 and MP7 are two of the most famous.

The MP7 (which anyone who's played Half-Life 2 should recognize) is a very small submachine gun, almost like a large pistol. It can take a 20, 30, or 40-round magazine, with only the 40-round actually protruding below the grip. The 4.6mm ammo can penetrate up to 20 layers of Kevlar AND 1.6 millimeters of titanium backing at 200 meters, so it'll likely shred North Korean body armor. It's currently in use as a special forces weapon, as it can be fitted with a silencer and provides amazing power against armored enemies (typical insurgents or criminals likely won't need that much penetrating power and can be handled with a less specialized weapon).

Colt 9mm SMG: This is mostly used by the USMC (you're more likely to see it stateside if you piss off the Drug Enforcement Agency), and is simply an ultracompact M16 carbine rechambered in 9x19mm. It uses 32-round Uzi magazines modified to fit the new gun, and is available with either 3-round burst or full auto capability. Being essentially identical to AR-15 pattern rifles except for the caliber, this improves training and makes it much easier for American soldiers to instinctively handle.

You seem to have forgotten to restrict the bolding, friend.
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 11:36:55 pm »
What's with all the posts about guns? It's not really a secret that N. Korea has nothing of it's own that can compare to a First World military.
Her3tik, you have groupies.
Ego: +5

There are a number of ways, though my favourite is simply to take them by surprise. They're just walking down the street, minding their own business when suddenly, WHACK! Penis to the face.

Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 11:48:07 pm »
What's with all the posts about guns? It's not really a secret that N. Korea has nothing of it's own that can compare to a First World military.
See, this is the part where we're supposed to piss our pants in fear of what North Korea can hypothetically do but, in all likelihood, won't. Remember the advice of Bert the Turtle:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60</a>

Offline Morgenleoht

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 12:20:17 am »
Gun porn was TL;DR.
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 12:29:29 am »
It's not simply a matter of "they're worse", nor am I judging this by the likely age of their weapons. What I'm saying is, should it come down to actual military engagements between the USA and N. Korea, they simply do not have what it takes to stand a chance. Our air power, with the support of S. Korean bases and our carrier fleets, will lead to complete air control in no time. If there's one thing America has proven time and again, it's that we absolutely dominate battles where we can include our air force. The only issue I can see with this is China getting testy (and rightfully so) over a carrier fleet parked so close to the mainland.

Should N. Korea decide to use guerrilla tactics instead of direct engagement, however, they may see success for a while. That's something our forces have had a historically bad time dealing with. Given the general state of Korean supplies, as has been said elsewhere, I am doubtful that even this will be effective for long.

Gun porn was TL;DR.
There's also this. I kinda stopped reading after the first half of the first post.
Her3tik, you have groupies.
Ego: +5

There are a number of ways, though my favourite is simply to take them by surprise. They're just walking down the street, minding their own business when suddenly, WHACK! Penis to the face.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 12:34:40 am »
If you're going to exclusively dismiss all of the information as "gun porn" and refuse to even look at it, then I'll completely remove it. But it likely would have been of great help to those without an understanding of the specific weapon systems involved who didn't want to do the research on every bit themselves.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2013, 12:41:47 am »
Quote
It's not simply a matter of "they're worse", nor am I judging this by the likely age of their weapons. What I'm saying is, should it come down to actual military engagements between the USA and N. Korea, they simply do not have what it takes to stand a chance. Our air power, with the support of S. Korean bases and our carrier fleets, will lead to complete air control in no time. If there's one thing America has proven time and again, it's that we absolutely dominate battles where we can include our air force.

Yes, but this is not simply a matter of aerial warfare. The air force exists to provide support for the ground forces, not to simply win battles themselves. Time and time again since World War II (when the idea of air power becoming the greatest force outside of the atomic bomb became common), it's been proven that fighting very often comes down to the people and vehicles on the ground. The recent war in Iraq saw total air superiority by the United States and Coalition to the point where the Iraqis were lucky to even get anything off the ground, but the fighting was still based in the capabilities of the soldiers and vehicles that could actually capture ground and cities and hold them. You can blow up most of the defenders with an F/A-18, but you can't actually do anything until you've got soldiers and tanks to walk in and mop up or hold the territory. There's also areas that the air force simply can't reach, like tunnels, or can't indiscriminately bomb, like cities and villages. Sometimes you need something more precise than a laser-guided bomb, especially when civilians get involved.

Air superiority will ensure that the North Koreans can't raise aircraft against the US and South Korea easily and will allow for easier ability to call in close air support, but the only thing that can actually win the war (as opposed to turning the land into dust) will be men with machine guns and the tanks ahead of them.
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Offline Askold

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2013, 01:41:44 am »
About the weapon comparisons:

The quality difference in small arms isn't that much of a gamebreaker. NK has kalashnikovs that are decent, reliable guns even without holographic sights and other accessories. The reason they are boned is because of the vehicles and big guns. Their tanks are outdated, their aircraft are no match for the most likely opponents and I doubt that they can stop an invasion coming from the sea either.

IF their infantry is as fanatic as they would like us to believe they can cause the biggest resistance in urban areas where most of the fighting goes to infantry, so I agree with Chitoryu12 on that.

Actually now that I think about this... The war would end when the remains of the NK troops surrender and come out of their holes and tunnels, but I'm not sure how long that would take.

Maybe the whole deck of cards collapses few days into the war or maybe the fighting goes on for a year or few. The logical part in me says that their people should be glad to be free of that regime and that only ones who would defend it are either brainwashed or the few opressors who have lived in luxury during this regime. 

Then again that is what some people thought about Iraq.

I don't think they can keep the resistance going on as Iraq has. They get recruits from other countries and are fighting for a religion (or at least one version of it) but would foreign communists support north korean resistance? Do we have anyone outside that country that would say "No, I think their people had it better under the tyrannical pseudo-communist regime and I want to help them return to the glorious days of Kim Jong-Il."
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Offline Meshakhad

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2013, 02:02:47 am »
Any thoughts on whether or not China might help us out? I think it's more likely than you might think.
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Offline KZN02

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2013, 02:10:23 am »
Any thoughts on whether or not China might help us out? I think it's more likely than you might think.
I asked my mother on her input. She says China would do everything it can to prevent another Korean War, since in the worst case, North Korean refugees would go straight to China. Only problem is that North Korea has stopped listening to them.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2013, 02:13:36 am »
Quote
The quality difference in small arms isn't that much of a gamebreaker. NK has kalashnikovs that are decent, reliable guns even without holographic sights and other accessories. The reason they are boned is because of the vehicles and big guns. Their tanks are outdated, their aircraft are no match for the most likely opponents and I doubt that they can stop an invasion coming from the sea either.

Well, the firearms difference is more pronounced than that. The typical North Korean soldier has a plain rifle with iron sights. Along with Americans and South Koreans having reflex sights for improved point shooting at close range and ACOGs and similar magnifying sights for improved long range shooting, at least four members of each 9-man South Korean squad have grenade launchers of some kind attached to their rifles that can be used immediately. Outside of hand grenades, the typical North Korean unit will usually present explosives in specialized roles or as dedicated teams; the RPG-7 was designed for a two-man team to use, in fact. Combined with the squad level usage of light machine guns and designated marksmen with scoped rifles, and the average Western squad simply has greater flexibility than units armed with mostly plain assault rifles with specialty weapons being applied as specific force multipliers in a grander battle scheme.

One of the biggest issues with North Korea when it comes to small arms is the training: they're focused on old Soviet doctrine that involves massive amounts of conscripts or even militia with bare levels of training to be simply thrown at the enemy en masse. They follow scripted battle plans with essentially zero flexibility, as they're reliant on high ranking decision makers. Individuality is discouraged in all segments of society, but it's especially bad in the military. Compare this to the US and similar militaries, which encourage individual initiative and a strong mid-level of non-commissioned officers who lead from the field. Part of this means that US soldiers are simply more effective man to man, as they're trained for individual marksmanship and skill rather than being given a rifle and pointed at the enemy.

This is also reflected in their choice of weapons: the average North Korean soldier has an AK that was designed for massed automatic fire and ease of use by poorly trained peasants, while the average American has an M16 or M4 that's been customized with some kind of optical sight and various other accessories (including grenade launchers and infrared lasers) that allow for them to achieve maximum efficiency and work to the best of their capabilities. We may have less than half the number of soldiers as them, but each of our men is worth far more than two of theirs.

Quote
IF their infantry is as fanatic as they would like us to believe they can cause the biggest resistance in urban areas where most of the fighting goes to infantry, so I agree with Chitoryu12 on that.

Not only residential areas, but the regular terrain as well. Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom both involved direct routes to the targets across miles and miles of open desert, with the Coalition forces essentially driving in a straight line to Baghdad. The air force managed to destroy one armored vehicle with every four bombs or missiles used in Desert Storm, but this is because said vehicles were in large, open areas in clear weather. North Korea is very mountainous and the armor can be easily spread across difficult terrain where it can't be easily spotted and there may only be one direct avenue of approach to target it. The same terrain that prevents the North from easily invading the South works both ways.

Also, North Korea has large amounts of underground facilities, possibly even to the level of bases and command centers. Even if our bunker busters have the ability to destroy these facilities from above ground, you still need ground forces who can fight their way across the nation and find the hidden entrances wherever they are. These entrances, in turn, will be guarded by more ground forces. It'll be very much a land war.

Quote
Actually now that I think about this... The war would end when the remains of the NK troops surrender and come out of their holes and tunnels, but I'm not sure how long that would take.

That's the most likely scenario. A lot of the soldiers seem to only be in it for the "army first" attitude toward supply allocation and the added privileges of joining, rather than a mass fanaticism. There's a limited amount of capable officers and leaders, as they're usually "bred from the same stock": Kim Jong-un inherited the position from his father, who inherited leadership from his father. Government officials are selected based on loyalty and family connections rather than talent. Generals come from the commissioned officer corps, which in turn is rather small and mostly comes from dedicated officer training schools (and like government officials, success is based on loyalty to the party). There's no talented pool of NCOs that can lead squads in the absence of generals, or take over the commissioned officer positions as their leaders die. The less connection the soldiers have to their leadership, the less reason they have to continue fighting.

Quote
Maybe the whole deck of cards collapses few days into the war or maybe the fighting goes on for a year or few. The logical part in me says that their people should be glad to be free of that regime and that only ones who would defend it are either brainwashed or the few opressors who have lived in luxury during this regime. 

Then again that is what some people thought about Iraq.

The Iraqi problems seem to have mostly stemmed from the problems caused by American occupation over the years rather than a genuine love of Saddam and his regime. North Korea is very much unlike Iraq in that it's a giant death camp: the majority of the population lives in squalor and starvation, with even cars being a rare luxury for anyone not in the government. Concentration camps are common and have large amounts of political prisoners and their innocent family occupying them. The borders are locked down and soldiers have even killed their comrades to try and escape to South Korea. Refugees almost regularly flee, risking immediate death if caught. The occupiers would probably provide the first regular meals they've gotten their entire lives.

Quote
I don't think they can keep the resistance going on as Iraq has. They get recruits from other countries and are fighting for a religion (or at least one version of it) but would foreign communists support north korean resistance? Do we have anyone outside that country that would say "No, I think their people had it better under the tyrannical pseudo-communist regime and I want to help them return to the glorious days of Kim Jong-Il."

Not anyone who matters. Every country will have its supporters, either the most fanatical (who probably have something a little wrong in the head) or ignorant foreign nuts who took the "Glorious Democratic People's Republic" propaganda seriously and want to see the rest of the world follow their example. But not even Iran supports them, and Iran is notoriously nutty.

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Any thoughts on whether or not China might help us out? I think it's more likely than you might think.

China was the only ally North Korea has ever had, but that's over now. China supports the new sanctions on them, and were royally pissed by the nuclear tests earlier this year. The actual threats of starting nuclear warfare have apparently led them to wash their hands of the regime. At a minimum, China won't give them any help when the fighting starts. They'll be lucky if China doesn't outright donate troops and supplies to NATO instead.

China also has a desire to try and limit American presence nearby; we're both reliant on amicable relations and trading, but they really don't want us actually within arm's length. They also know that a unified Korea would mean that US forces are basically on their border. They may try to get permission to take North Korea as their own territory (similar to Taiwan) before South Korea can incorporate it.

Quote
She says China would do everything it can to prevent another Korean War, since in the worst case, North Korean refugees would go straight to China.

I don't think China has any qualms about closing their borders to refugees and even shooting them if they try to sneak through, but they can do nothing to stop a war. North Korea has gone off the deep end, and China knows that they're more trouble than it's worth. When you threaten nuclear war, people can't exactly defuse that conflict by trying to act as a negotiator. The DPRK's threats have escalated everything and essentially started the countdown to conflict.
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Offline Caitshidhe

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Re: The New Korean War: Discuss it here
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2013, 03:01:33 am »
Point here: China's borders are technically already closed to refugees. The Chinese government doesn't like them being there and WILL send them back when it finds them. Or at least, it did--I'm not sure if that position has changed following their spat over nuclear bomb tests. But it never wanted them there and hated having them there and North Korean refugees escaping into China live a fringe existence. The fact that so many thousands of people attempt to cross the border every year anyway tells you perhaps all you need to know about the conditions in North Korea from which they are trying to escape in the first place.
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