S. 1274 Federal funding for rebuilding religious institutions!

[The Illusive Man]

They are trying to get around the establishment clause again! Senate bill 1274 states in Section 1 that:

“(i) IN GENERAL.—A church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other house of worship, and an otherwise eligible private nonprofit facility operated by a religious organization, shall be eligible for contributions under paragraph (1)(B), without regard to the religious character of the facility or the primary religious use of the facility.”

“(ii) LIMITATIONS.—Notwithstanding clause (i), in spaces used primarily for religious worship services, contributions under paragraph (1)(B) shall only be used to cover costs of purchasing or replacing, without limitation, the building structure, building enclosure components, building envelope, vertical and horizontal circulation, physical plant support spaces, electrical, plumbing, and mechanical systems (including heating, ventilation, air-conditioning, and fire and life safety systems), 13 and related site improvements.”

Never mind, this passes the Lemon Test.

The sponsor is Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, a Democrat senator for New York, I am disappoint!

The three cosponsors are:
Senator Roy Blunt , Republican senator for Missouri.

Senator Jeffrey Chiesa, Republican senator for New Jersey.

Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat senator for Missouri.

[m52nickerson]

As long as it is open to all it does not violate the separation of church and state.

[MadCatTLX]

As long as it is open to all it does not violate the separation of church and state.

I'm pretty sure using tax payer money to fund the construction and upkeep of churches violates that pretty well. Does the church of satan get money? Do atheist groups get money? Do you really think a mosque would ever get money?

[MadmanJohnson]

As long as it is open to all it does not violate the separation of church and state.

I'm pretty sure using tax payer money to fund the construction and upkeep of churches violates that pretty well. Does the church of satan get money? Do atheist groups get money? Do you really think a mosque would ever get money?

Stats, please!

[MadCatTLX]

As long as it is open to all it does not violate the separation of church and state.

I'm pretty sure using tax payer money to fund the construction and upkeep of churches violates that pretty well. Does the church of satan get money? Do atheist groups get money? Do you really think a mosque would ever get money?

Stats, please!

What stats would there be on a the distribution of money from a proposed piece of legislation? Unless I misread the first post, this has yet to be implemented. What I'm trying to say is, how do you really think it will work in practice?

[MadmanJohnson]

Well, crud. Yeah, you're right.
 

(click to show/hide)

Atheism Exposed in....1...2..

[m52nickerson]

I'm pretty sure using tax payer money to fund the construction and upkeep of churches violates that pretty well. Does the church of satan get money? Do atheist groups get money? Do you really think a mosque would ever get money?

If only christian churches get money that it would be a violation.  If mosques and other religious organization can get money as well it could not be seen as promoting a particular religion.

Atheist groups are not religious, unless you are going to argue that atheism is a religion. 

[RavynousHunter]

In a perfect world, Nickerson, you'd be absolutely right, and there would be little to no problems with this particular piece of legislation.  However, the US, like all of the Western world, plays favourites when it comes to Christianity.  Synagogues MIGHT get some money, but I'd bet you $20 that the lion's share of prospective recipients of this money would be some denomination or other of Christianity, which means that this is a violation of the separation of church and state, if not the entirety of the Establishment Clause.  This makes it unconstitutional, and therefore hideously reprehensible that such a thing is even being considered by the people who are supposed to take the US Constitution into account when they do shit like this.

[m52nickerson]

In a perfect world, Nickerson, you'd be absolutely right, and there would be little to no problems with this particular piece of legislation.  However, the US, like all of the Western world, plays favourites when it comes to Christianity.  Synagogues MIGHT get some money, but I'd bet you $20 that the lion's share of prospective recipients of this money would be some denomination or other of Christianity, which means that this is a violation of the separation of church and state, if not the entirety of the Establishment Clause.  This makes it unconstitutional, and therefore hideously reprehensible that such a thing is even being considered by the people who are supposed to take the US Constitution into account when they do shit like this.

Well technically the application of the legislation would be unconstitutional, not the legislation it self.   You are probably right about how it will be applied, but lets hope you are wrong.

[Witchyjoshy]

but lets hope you are wrong.

I'd sooner hope that both Koch Brothers get hit by lightning while playing golf on their yachts.

That has a higher chance of happening.

[MadCatTLX]

but lets hope you are wrong.

I'd sooner hope that both Koch Brothers get hit by lightning while playing golf on their yachts.

That has a higher chance of happening.

Unrelated note: I recently found out that Volition, the game company that makes the Saint's Row games, was bought by a company named Koch Media when THQ went under. I was pissed, but then noticed that it was a German company that has no relation to the Koch brothers. I'm now happy as this may mean not having to put up with THQ's bullshit of codes to access multiplayer.

As I write this I'm about to go wreak havoc on a virtual city in a tank. Best stress relief ever.

[PosthumanHeresy]

but lets hope you are wrong.

I'd sooner hope that both Koch Brothers get hit by lightning while playing golf on their yachts.

That has a higher chance of happening.

Unrelated note: I recently found out that Volition, the game company that makes the Saint's Row games, was bought by a company named Koch Media when THQ went under. I was pissed, but then noticed that it was a German company that has no relation to the Koch brothers. I'm now happy as this may mean not having to put up with THQ's bullshit of codes to access multiplayer.

As I write this I'm about to go wreak havoc on a virtual city in a tank. Best stress relief ever.

That's awesome. Side note: fuck yeah, Germans!

[Veras]

This money is expressly for rebuilding structures after disasters.

This isn't a threat to the first amendment.  There is nothing wrong with allowing religious institutions to get money for that.  It's not giving money to a religious organization, it's giving money to an organization that happens to have been affected by a natural disaster.  Not only are mosques, synagogues, satanic churches eligible, so are private homes and businesses.

[RavynousHunter]

but lets hope you are wrong.

I'd sooner hope that both Koch Brothers get hit by lightning while playing golf on their yachts.

That has a higher chance of happening.

Unrelated note: I recently found out that Volition, the game company that makes the Saint's Row games, was bought by a company named Koch Media when THQ went under. I was pissed, but then noticed that it was a German company that has no relation to the Koch brothers. I'm now happy as this may mean not having to put up with THQ's bullshit of codes to access multiplayer.

As I write this I'm about to go wreak havoc on a virtual city in a tank. Best stress relief ever.

That's awesome. Side note: fuck yeah, Germans!

May this mean good things for the Red Faction series.  We need a proper sequel to Guerrilla, damn it!

[The Illusive Man]

Welp, I should have made this thread more informative. Time to correct that.

I'm pretty sure using tax payer money to fund the construction and upkeep of churches violates that pretty well.

Winner, winner chicken dinner! There are two reasons why: tax exemption and Lemon v. Kurtzman.

Churches and religious orgs are tax exempt unless audited otherwise.

As the IRS puts it:

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations, qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC section 501(c)(3) and are generally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions.
To qualify for tax-exempt status, such an organization must meet the following requirements (covered in greater detail throughout this publication):

■ the organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other charitable purposes,

■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder,

■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation,

■ the organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and

■ the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.

The Lemon Test.

Original version and TL:DR version:
1.   The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2.   The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3.   The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.