FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: CaseAgainstFaith on April 11, 2012, 10:41:25 am
-
Speaking to a college crowd at the University of Michigan in January, President Barack Obama noted that for the first time Americans owe more on their student loans than on their credit cards. "That's inexcusable," Obama said. "Higher education is not a luxury—it's an economic imperative."
But even as the president laid out a program that included earlier loan forgiveness, lower interest rates, and caps on repayments of loans, he was putting the screws to graduate students. Starting this July, graduate-student loans will no longer be subsidized, meaning students will see their debts multiply with interest even before they've received their degrees.
The change will save the government an estimated $18 billion over the next decade—most of which has already been redirected to fund Pell Grants for undergraduates—but it's sure to tack thousands of dollars onto the debts of individual graduate students. The repercussions for graduate schools might be far-reaching, as people grapple with the question of whether a $50,000 master's or a $100,000 law degree is worth the money.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-04-04/news/obama-to-grad-students-pay-up/ (http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-04-04/news/obama-to-grad-students-pay-up/)
You know Obama has done a lot to help, like with his healthcare law, and his original tuition repayment plan but this is a bit of a what...two steps forward one step back approach? I just don't see how this one helps anyone.
-
You know Obama has done a lot to help, like with his healthcare law, and his original tuition repayment plan but this is a bit of a what...two steps forward one step back approach? I just don't see how this one helps anyone.
Well, it certainly helps the people who issued those loans in the first place. Why take steps to ensure the viability of our emerging workforce when we can further line the pockets of the ridiculously wealthy?
Other than that, yeah, I got nothin'.
-
It won't help in terms of paying for it, but the issue of having a lot of graduate students is way more complex than just figuring out the financing, unfortunately. There's still a load of debate about whether universities purposely take in more graduate students than they can mentor and assist in placing in the job market because they need them to teach the basic courses of the university so their full professors are freed up to do other things.
For example, the English department regularly takes on dozens of graduate students in creative writing, master's degrees and PhDs and gives them a section or two of basic composition to teach (your 101 or 102 required courses). The vast majority of other teachers who teach the rest of those basic comp courses are called adjuncts -- these are folks who've already graduated grad school and do not have the sort of job in a university or other job site that their higher education would normally allow. So they teach four sections or so of this basic comp at a cut rate salary to try to make ends meet while they figure out wtf they're doing next. My department will graduate a handful of PhDs, around 8 - 10 master's degrees, and about another 8 - 10 creative writing masters students this year. For sake of comparison, my department will hire two people this year for full time work -- and those are all outside hires, meaning none of our own students got those jobs. So we have around 35 people hitting the job market this year, and the vast majority of them won't find jobs befitting their degrees. However, we still need to find teachers for 120 sections of composition this fall... Guess where a bunch of those newly minted degreed students will be teaching this fall? We'll be hiring them back at peanut wages to do it. So basically, there is a glut in the market. All these people with higher grad degrees -- no real jobs with a real wage and benefits to provide to them.
It's not exactly the same for other departments, but it is very true of those departments who teach the core classes that all students must take regardless of major. So while I think cutting federal funding for grad students is a big mistake, the truth is, universities encourage taking on too many grad students as it is, and they exploit their labor. If we took in fewer to start with (or only those who we could truly mentor and support), the funding issue would not be a big deal.
Just my opinion.
-
Well, I'm fucked for law school, then.
-
Well, that just means Grad school in another country for me. :-\
-
Well this is kinda depressing...I hope that with the little funds that I get that I will at least be able to get my B.A. at some point in time.
I'm in debt from a school back in 2000, I'm on disability and I am ineligible for grants and scholarships.
-
I...eh? I am confused. The government's helping in one area, but shafting students in another...sense, please?
Also, seems like universities need a kick in the nuts in terms of pulling dickheaded bullshit to the tune of fucking legislation. "No, you do NOT get to exploit your own graduates to fill your own bullshit business plan."
-
I...eh? I am confused. The government's helping in one area, but shafting students in another...sense, please?
Also, seems like universities need a kick in the nuts in terms of pulling dickheaded bullshit to the tune of fucking legislation. "No, you do NOT get to exploit your own graduates to fill your own bullshit business plan."
Agreed. And on the one hand it does give them really valuable experience in teaching, researching, etc. But universities should really just be more upfront about how many grad students they can reasonably handle. There wouldn't be funding problems if they took in a sustainable amount. Think of the whole "smaller classrooms make better instruction" concept -- same thing! It makes me sad to see so many struggle on salaries that are little better than the poverty line.
-
I see a big part of the problem being that once people get their degrees, there's really nothing out there for them, so I'm sure many think "why should I go into debt and waste part of my life to end up working in a fast food joint?".
-
Except, graduate school is a luxury. It is what undergraduate school used to be. A bachelor's degree is a necessity, a master's, not so much. I'm not saying grad students deserve to get screwed in loans, and there are other ways to solve this whole problem. Tax the rich, do something different with textbooks to stop the insane prices. I don't know. But as long as the rich continue hoarding their money and buying politicians who will fight tax increases, I see nothing wrong with trying to make sure everyone has the basic education necessary for a decent job, and that is a bachelor's degree.
-
Except, graduate school is a luxury. It is what undergraduate school used to be. A bachelor's degree is a necessity, a master's, not so much. I'm not saying grad students deserve to get screwed in loans, and there are other ways to solve this whole problem. Tax the rich, do something different with textbooks to stop the insane prices. I don't know. But as long as the rich continue hoarding their money and buying politicians who will fight tax increases, I see nothing wrong with trying to make sure everyone has the basic education necessary for a decent job, and that is a bachelor's degree.
Perhaps start by having bachelors degrees through public universities paid for with our tax dollars? Additional education beyond that can easily be subsidized to reduce cost for those who want or need to obtain higher degrees.
-
Perhaps start by having bachelors degrees through public universities paid for with our tax dollars? Additional education beyond that can easily be subsidized to reduce cost for those who want or need to obtain higher degrees.
Sure, but where do we get the money to do that?
-
Perhaps start by having bachelors degrees through public universities paid for with our tax dollars? Additional education beyond that can easily be subsidized to reduce cost for those who want or need to obtain higher degrees.
Sure, but where do we get the money to do that?
Make corporations actually pay taxes, stop going to war every time we see oil/brown people, Congress's salary...
But that's hopelessly optimistic.
-
I vote we pass a law that says all higher education tuition and additional fees cannot exceed the amount of $10,000 dollars per student. Also, all student loan debts will cease accruing interest after the sum of $5,000 dollars over the principal has been reached and can be covered by bankruptcy again.
-
Except, graduate school is a luxury. It is what undergraduate school used to be. A bachelor's degree is a necessity, a master's, not so much.
Not so much, if you take into account law school, med school, vet school, etc are all "graduate schools." In addition, some fields (many of the sciences, for example) require advanced degrees in order to get a job. (That's one reason I majored in chemical engineering rather than chemistry.)
-
Except, graduate school is a luxury. It is what undergraduate school used to be. A bachelor's degree is a necessity, a master's, not so much.
Not so much, if you take into account law school, med school, vet school, etc are all "graduate schools." In addition, some fields (many of the sciences, for example) require advanced degrees in order to get a job. (That's one reason I majored in chemical engineering rather than chemistry.)
^. Anthropology/Archaeology requires grad school because most higher paying jobs need people with more experience.
-
Fair enough, but my point was more that you don't need grad school to get a decent job. Maybe not the job you'd like, but a job that supports you and your family. Getting a job you enjoy in and of itself is a luxury, imo.
-
I agree, Kali, though I don't want to, lol. I think a job you like should be a goal for everyone, but you're right in that getting a decent job does not require grad school. By the same token, though, getting a decent job that can support a family doesn't require a college degree, necessarily, either. There are loads of skilled trades that make more money, and those jobs usually can't be outsourced.
-
What happened to higher education being a worthy goal by itself and a gateway to academic research, not a preparation for a job?
-
What happened to higher education being a worthy goal by itself and a gateway to academic research, not a preparation for a job?
Commie.
-
What happened to higher education being a worthy goal by itself and a gateway to academic research, not a preparation for a job?
As universities began to cater more towards a business model instead of an academic/research model, the student and families of students began to be treated as a "customer" -- and that develops the attitude of "what are we getting for our money?" It's part of a huge debate going on in academia right now about how we get students to reconsider the value of a university beyond a dollar sign or a job. I'm developing a new course or my university this summer on that very topic. There's been a lot of interesting work on the subject recently, including a controversial book called Academically Adrift that questions whether students are even learning anything at all at universities or whether we're simply taking their tuition dollars and rubber stamping them through, provided they can jump through enough hoops.
-
I vote we pass a law that says all higher education tuition and additional fees cannot exceed the amount of $10,000 dollars per student. Also, all student loan debts will cease accruing interest after the sum of $5,000 dollars over the principal has been reached and can be covered by bankruptcy again.
Honey, I love you, but you know numbers aren't your friend. The amount you're suggesting for a full 4-year degree isn't even remotely feasible.
Now, for all non-dorm expenses to total $2000 or less per full-time semester would make sense. That's what my undergrad education cost just 5 years ago, and still only adds up to $16,000 over 4 years. Unfortunately, it requires states to actually have and provide money for schools.
Education dollars go to K-12 schools, community colleges, AND state universities. Every cut in education spending hurts all of those institutions.
-
I vote we pass a law that says all higher education tuition and additional fees cannot exceed the amount of $10,000 dollars per student. Also, all student loan debts will cease accruing interest after the sum of $5,000 dollars over the principal has been reached and can be covered by bankruptcy again.
Honey, I love you, but you know numbers aren't your friend. The amount you're suggesting for a full 4-year degree isn't even remotely feasible.
Now, for all non-dorm expenses to total $2000 or less per full-time semester would make sense. That's what my undergrad education cost just 5 years ago, and still only adds up to $16,000 over 4 years. Unfortunately, it requires states to actually have and provide money for schools.
Education dollars go to K-12 schools, community colleges, AND state universities. Every cut in education spending hurts all of those institutions.
four out of every three people aren't good with fractions :P.
Spend money on education? Are you crazy!? We gotta dump funds into the military so we destroy and destabilize third world countries then take their shit! CAUSE THIS IS 'MURICA!
-
What happened to higher education being a worthy goal by itself and a gateway to academic research, not a preparation for a job?
As universities began to cater more towards a business model instead of an academic/research model, the student and families of students began to be treated as a "customer" -- and that develops the attitude of "what are we getting for our money?" It's part of a huge debate going on in academia right now about how we get students to reconsider the value of a university beyond a dollar sign or a job. I'm developing a new course or my university this summer on that very topic. There's been a lot of interesting work on the subject recently, including a controversial book called Academically Adrift that questions whether students are even learning anything at all at universities or whether we're simply taking their tuition dollars and rubber stamping them through, provided they can jump through enough hoops.
This. I spent 13 years at uni (I love being Aussie and able to defer my payments until I make a set income) and saw from 2000-2012 how the culture's gone from semi-academic to totally business-oriented. You want to know how I figured this out? I did humanities. Every time the School of Humanities had a gathering, we got cookies, tea and coffee with the fanciest thing ever done a Subway platter. School of Business or Medicine? Those fuckers got sandwiches, fruit, cookies, juice, tea and coffee, and even hot food. I made it a point of honour to scavenge from them whenever I could get away with it.
-
There's definitely more of an operating budget in the business schools instead of the Humanities (where I work). Here, though, Health Sciences has it all. Full of scandal too, but damn they have the cash to blow!