Author Topic: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)  (Read 3756 times)

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Offline Her3tiK

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The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« on: February 06, 2013, 10:29:16 pm »
For those who haven't heard, the White House has recently released a memo outlining the rules it's laid out for targeting US terror suspects for assassination preemptive killing, in order to prevent a "terrorist attack." This paper, touted as policy instead of a legal document, was, depending on who you listen to, leaked to the media, though a White House spokesperson claims that they were released as an attempt at transparency.
Quote
The New York Timesreports that the Justice Department declined to disclose the white paper in a letter on Jan. 23, telling the newspaper the document was a "draft" and was exempted from FOIA because it was part of the "deliberative process."

But White House spokesman Jay Carney touted the release of the white paper as evidence the administration was enabling a public conversation about the principles behind the government's targeted killing program, stating at one point on Tuesday that the white paper had been "released" rather than leaked.

According to  The New York Times, the document was originally leaked to NBC, and have since made their way online (still searching for a copy). Analysts, including the ACLU and The Young Turks, are concerned about the incredibly broad language, that could be interpreted as making anyone a fair target. Essentially, their concern boils down to language stating that "High level government officials" need to more than have concern about a person's unspecified "recent" activities, and that their current actions make sending troops to apprehend them "dangerous". There is also concern over the fact that suspected persons are not told they are suspects, and thus are not given the chance to clear their names, or otherwise receive notice that they are considered terror suspects.

On a final note, I'll leave this rather lengthy interview from the Majority Report podcast, which goes quite in depth with this issue, and is well worth the listen.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoI3y6A0nA0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoI3y6A0nA0</a>
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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 04:44:40 am »
Oh boy.  I can just see this triggering a mainpage quote explosion, y'know?
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 06:26:32 am »
I can see it triggering an entirely different kind of explosion.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 09:29:11 am »
I certainly hope this is nothing but a draft, because that's a horribly wide language. To boot, I think we have something with the rule of law and all. This really should go die in a fire as a whole since it's horribly illegal.
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 10:23:00 am »
I certainly hope this is nothing but a draft, because that's a horribly wide language. To boot, I think we have something with the rule of law and all. This really should go die in a fire as a whole since it's horribly illegal.
Yes... because so many other things this gov't does get shot down (pardon the pun) for being "illegal".
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 10:42:34 am »
I certainly hope this is nothing but a draft, because that's a horribly wide language. To boot, I think we have something with the rule of law and all. This really should go die in a fire as a whole since it's horribly illegal.
Yes... because so many other things this gov't does get shot down (pardon the pun) for being "illegal".

I said 'hope', not that it's going to happen. There's certain standards though and this really doesn't cross the threshold for it. It's like the whole no fly list and people with the same name.
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Offline Rabbit of Caerbannog

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 11:00:32 am »
The thing is, this isn't exactly new. The Obama administration already assassinated Anwar al-Awlaki and his sixteen-year-old son, both of whom were American citizens. Prior to that the revelation that the Obama administration possessed a kill list was leaked to the press, and Nasser al-Awlaki unsuccessfully sued to have his son's name removed from the list.

EDIT: Fixed the messed up link and added one link that I somehow forgot.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 12:11:48 pm »
I believe that in principle, being an American citizen should not protect you from being targeted by the military if you join a terrorist organization whom we are at war with. But I believe there should be stricter guidelines and more transparency. I do think that in this case, al-Awlaki was a legitimate target. I would suggest that much of Yemen WOULD constitute a war zone, given the government's limited control over its territory. If he'd been living in an apartment in downtown Sana'a, that would be different.

Here's a hypothetical for you. Suppose that, during the Civil War, we had discovered that the Confederates had somehow established a naval base in West Africa, and were likely using it to attack US merchant shipping, and the local government was unable or unwilling to take them out. Would we be justified in dispatching warships and Marines to destroy the base and kill everyone there, even though they were legally US citizens?
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Offline Yla

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 01:19:02 pm »
Here's a hypothetical for you. Suppose that, during the Civil War, we had discovered that the Confederates had somehow established a naval base in West Africa, and were likely using it to attack US merchant shipping, and the local government was unable or unwilling to take them out. Would we be justified in dispatching warships and Marines to destroy the base and kill everyone there, even though they were legally US citizens?
see: the entire civil war. It consisted of killing people that were, legally*, US citizens.
I realize that doesn' answer your question, but maybe another example would serve your point better.
*given that the Union gov didn't recognize the secession.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 05:18:11 pm »
I certainly hope this is nothing but a draft, because that's a horribly wide language.

That isn't the policy paper. What was released is the summary.
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Offline Old Viking

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 05:25:43 pm »
What's the federal stance on traffic transgressions?
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 05:54:56 pm »
I believe that in principle, being an American citizen should not protect you from being targeted by the military if you join a terrorist organization whom we are at war with.

Agreed. But would you blow up an unarmed bishop or propagandist working for the Nazis without trial (which is what he was)? If he were in uniform or out of uniform and standing on a battlefield maybe you could argue that he'd ceased to be a civilian, but that was not the case. In my opinion, unless a person is doing something to demonstrate they are not a civilian at the point of being killed, any charges against them need to be proven in a court of law.

The logical thing to do is establish an in absentia court.
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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 07:56:59 pm »
What's the federal stance on traffic transgressions?
I'm sure it ends in hellfire missiles.

Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 10:12:34 pm »
I certainly hope this is nothing but a draft, because that's a horribly wide language.

This is what scares me.  Loose language can leave way to much room for people to easily manipulate and abuse loopholes.
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Offline Meshakhad

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Re: The White Papers (Targeting US Citizens)
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 02:50:22 am »
I believe that in principle, being an American citizen should not protect you from being targeted by the military if you join a terrorist organization whom we are at war with.

Agreed. But would you blow up an unarmed bishop or propagandist working for the Nazis without trial (which is what he was)? If he were in uniform or out of uniform and standing on a battlefield maybe you could argue that he'd ceased to be a civilian, but that was not the case. In my opinion, unless a person is doing something to demonstrate they are not a civilian at the point of being killed, any charges against them need to be proven in a court of law.

The logical thing to do is establish an in absentia court.

He was believed to be involved in planning multiple terrorist attacks.
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