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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Ultimate Paragon on November 16, 2014, 11:36:48 am

Title: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 16, 2014, 11:36:48 am
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11232986/Matt-Taylors-sexist-shirt-and-the-day-political-correctness-officially-went-mad.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11232986/Matt-Taylors-sexist-shirt-and-the-day-political-correctness-officially-went-mad.html)


We landed on a god damn comet for the first time in human history and idiot radfems bitch about a guy’s shirt.  Right, how are we supposed to take these so-called “feminists” seriously if they rant about a guy’s shirt more than a successful scientific milestone?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ironchew on November 16, 2014, 12:06:53 pm
Social justice is whipping up an outrageous scandal and nobody shows up for it.

All I see here is slacktivists with nothing better to do than trying to attach themselves to a monumental achievement for the sake of disparaging themenz. Nothing better to do than make someone cry during what should be one of the greatest days of his life.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 16, 2014, 12:27:54 pm
I was hoping the phrase "political correctness gone mad" would show up. Thanks, Telegraph.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Dakota Bob on November 16, 2014, 01:12:52 pm
...Is it bad I want one of those shirts?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 16, 2014, 01:18:37 pm
Really, they (Third Wavers as a whole ) are starting to act just like conservatives and Communist Russia in their puritan sexual morals. And now, I need to cart my wheelbarrow full of fresh meat back into the bunker and watch the bombs fall.

Ya'll have fun, bring some of the charred flesh back.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ironchew on November 16, 2014, 01:42:24 pm
Really, they (American culture as a whole ) have always been acting just like Americans in their puritan sexual morals.

FTFY. Second-wave feminists if anything were against the stringent Puritan sexual codes that were mainly embraced by the first-wavers, but anti-feminists enjoy disparaging them as ugly women who need feminism to emasculate men.

Second-wave feminism was a more diverse group than you give them credit for.

EDIT: I meant second wave feminism, which raises another question, Madman. What exactly do you find objectionable in third-wave feminism without having to dredge up the fringes?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Eiki-mun on November 16, 2014, 03:20:54 pm
Isn't third-wave feminism the one that you commonly see on Tumblr, the "yes all women, poisoned M&Ms, all men are rapists, kill all men, trans men are evil gender traitors" type?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 16, 2014, 03:23:41 pm
Isn't third-wave feminism the one that you commonly see on Tumblr, the "yes all women, poisoned M&Ms, all men are rapists, kill all men, trans men are evil gender traitors" type?

Well, those people tend to be third-wave feminists, but not all third-wave feminists are like that.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Eiki-mun on November 16, 2014, 03:24:58 pm
I'm just saying, when I hear "third-wave feminism", that's what I think of. And second-wave was the 1970's stuff, which varied from "make birth control affordable" to "outlaw porn".

First-wave was the voting stuff and legal rights stuff. I think.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ironchew on November 16, 2014, 03:40:57 pm
I'm just saying, when I hear "third-wave feminism", that's what I think of. And second-wave was the 1970's stuff, which varied from "make birth control affordable" to "outlaw porn".

First-wave was the voting stuff and legal rights stuff. I think.

First-wave feminism made a tactical decision to elevate women from the depictions at the time of base sex-obsessed machines to very pure, very Puritan beings that could be trusted to vote. It worked in the sense that they got womens' suffrage, but it also saddled American culture with even more Puritan bullshit (e.g. the ingénue, Prohibition, outlaw porn, etc.) that later waves of feminism rebelled against.

Feminism is a big enough movement now that they get all sorts; I know the Tumblrinas are somewhere in there, but they're on the fringe of the movement.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 17, 2014, 12:21:37 am
Er, didn't this guy choose to apologize? I see no evidence that his job was at risk or he was at risk, just that people complained about a tacky shirt and he said sorry for it.

Isn't rushing to defend him sort of the essence of white knighting? The act of defending someone while simultaneously denying them agency.

He could have just as easily told them to stick their criticism up their fundament, he didn't-he said sorry. His decision, not anyone elses.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 17, 2014, 03:32:33 am
What if he wore an anti-semitic shirt? Would it have been legitimate to be angry about that? Or is there some bubble in time that prevents discussion of that, also?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Askold on November 17, 2014, 04:08:47 am
I think that wearing anti-semitic shirt would have been different than a shirt with "sexy women."
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 17, 2014, 07:50:18 am
What if he wore an anti-semitic shirt? Would it have been legitimate to be angry about that? Or is there some bubble in time that prevents discussion of that, also?

Apples and potatoes.  Dude's wearing a shirt with depictions of women he finds attractive, not a shirt with a massive swastika on it or one covered in A. Wyatt Mann comics.  There's a rather VAST distance between the two that makes the Grand Canyon look like a pig wallow.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 17, 2014, 11:50:18 am
I'm just saying, when I hear "third-wave feminism", that's what I think of. And second-wave was the 1970's stuff, which varied from "make birth control affordable" to "outlaw porn".

First-wave was the voting stuff and legal rights stuff. I think.

First-wave feminism made a tactical decision to elevate women from the depictions at the time of base sex-obsessed machines to very pure, very Puritan beings that could be trusted to vote. It worked in the sense that they got womens' suffrage, but it also saddled American culture with even more Puritan bullshit (e.g. the ingénue, Prohibition, outlaw porn, etc.) that later waves of feminism rebelled against.

Feminism is a big enough movement now that they get all sorts; I know the Tumblrinas are somewhere in there, but they're on the fringe of the movement.

Indeed, there's a lot of diversity of belief in feminism.  The fact that so many of them can have such radically different opinions about a monologue in a book is testament to that.

What if he wore an anti-semitic shirt? Would it have been legitimate to be angry about that? Or is there some bubble in time that prevents discussion of that, also?

Apples and potatoes.  Dude's wearing a shirt with depictions of women he finds attractive, not a shirt with a massive swastika on it or one covered in A. Wyatt Mann comics.  There's a rather VAST distance between the two that makes the Grand Canyon look like a pig wallow.

I didn't see any misogynistic slogans or anything on that shirt.

And besides, it was a gift from a female friend of his.  A gift she made herself.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 17, 2014, 03:57:29 pm

I didn't see any misogynistic slogans or anything on that shirt.

And besides, it was a gift from a female friend of his.  A gift she made herself.

Yeah, and the female gender has those magical sexism anulling powers, really it doesn't.

The main complaint of his critics, which were pretty mild (https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth), was that wearing a shirt using women literally as objects of decoration (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/a-pornographer-and-atheist-explains-why-the-science-guys-shirt-crash-landed/) sent an unintended message to women wanting to enter, and those currently working in STEM fields because he was wearing it while making an announcement about a significant scientific discovery.

Don't get me wrong, the guy is clearly several different types of awesome-he landed a rocket on a freaking comet. I just think he received some justifiable rebukes because it wasn't the right place or time to be wearing that shirt!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ironchew on November 17, 2014, 04:37:31 pm
Er, didn't this guy choose to apologize? I see no evidence that his job was at risk or he was at risk, just that people complained about a tacky shirt and he said sorry for it.

Isn't rushing to defend him sort of the essence of white knighting?

I'm *this close* to not giving a shit about it, except PZ and co. said the apology wasn't enough (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/11/14/the-apology). I don't particularly mind how the whole thing was handled except the social justice contingent getting angry post-apology. Once they have anyone marked as the other, they will not accept anything he does to apologize.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: davedan on November 17, 2014, 04:41:28 pm
Isn't the suggestion by PZ Meyers that the people running the mission should apologise too, rather than just the guy with the shirt.

Having said that, he wore a shirt, he received some fairly mild criticism for the shirt, he chose to apologise, his friend who made the shirt has apparently sold lots of them. I no longer care and want to hear more about the landing on the comet.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 17, 2014, 05:02:32 pm

I didn't see any misogynistic slogans or anything on that shirt.

And besides, it was a gift from a female friend of his.  A gift she made herself.

Yeah, and the female gender has those magical sexism anulling powers, really it doesn't.

The main complaint of his critics, which were pretty mild (https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth), was that wearing a shirt using women literally as objects of decoration (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/a-pornographer-and-atheist-explains-why-the-science-guys-shirt-crash-landed/) sent an unintended message to women wanting to enter, and those currently working in STEM fields because he was wearing it while making an announcement about a significant scientific discovery.

Don't get me wrong, the guy is clearly several different types of awesome-he landed a rocket on a freaking comet. I just think he received some justifiable rebukes because it wasn't the right place or time to be wearing that shirt!

Was it really necessary to bully him to the point that he broke down crying?

And you really think it was about women in science?  No, they were just looking for an excuse to be offended.  In fact, they're actually hurting science by saying that something as banal and superficial as a few spots of skin on a shirt is more worthy of attention than a spacecraft landing on a comet for the first time in human history.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: ironbite on November 17, 2014, 05:33:33 pm
He apologized for wearing the shirt.  That should be the end of the story.

Ironbite-not, "Oh let's go hound this guy forever!"
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 17, 2014, 05:47:31 pm
Er, didn't this guy choose to apologize? I see no evidence that his job was at risk or he was at risk, just that people complained about a tacky shirt and he said sorry for it.

Isn't rushing to defend him sort of the essence of white knighting?

I'm *this close* to not giving a shit about it, except PZ and co. said the apology wasn't enough (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/11/14/the-apology). I don't particularly mind how the whole thing was handled except the social justice contingent getting angry post-apology. Once they have anyone marked as the other, they will not accept anything he does to apologize.

I'm with Ironchew.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Murdin on November 17, 2014, 06:28:53 pm
Another moral panic that emerges from the Social Justice crowd and their reactionary counterparts, brought to you by sensationalistic journalism and blind partisanship.

One one hand, all this outrage about a freaking shirt reeks of puritanical indignation. I'm not really blaming Rose Eveleth for posting the tweet that started it all, or the polemic within "women in science" circles, but rather the opportunists who later jumped on the bandwagon. They are the ones who turned a snide comment into a humourless self-righteous crusade against inappropriateness.

On the other hand... every article I've read on the subject, from the Washington Post to Slate to Tumblr, depicts him as a symptom at worst, never as an enemy. Meanwhile, I'm not aware of any actual harassment happening to him behind the scenes. Due to the sheer scale of the backlash, this does qualify as a depraved lack of care for the life and reputation of an innocent man turned public scapegoat. But this is not bullying. You can't put mean-spirited criticism and actual threats on the same bag.

I wonder what Dr. Taylor think about the assholes who are now harassing, doxxing, or otherwise trying to ruin the lives of overzealous women and teenage girls in his name. For some reason, I don't think this is making him feel any better about the situation.


I'm *this close* to not giving a shit about it, except PZ and co. said the apology wasn't enough (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/11/14/the-apology). I don't particularly mind how the whole thing was handled except the social justice contingent getting angry post-apology. Once they have anyone marked as the other, they will not accept anything he does to apologize.

The comments section is as terrible as can be expected from Pharyngula, but PZ himself isn't asking more from Taylor. He wants the ESA and society at large to take measures for female inclusion. Preachy, sure, but not really mean-spirited.


In any case, here are some funny links to lighten up the mood.

The irony at the end of this article is killing me. (http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/11/15/Comet-Guy-and-the-social-justice-black-hole) This is like Stalin and Hitler calling each other enemies of peace, freedom and the common good.

And now for something completely different... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2832965/He-land-probe-comet-t-park-car-Sister-tattooed-Rosetta-scientist-Dr-Matt-Parker-reveals-poor-driving-skills.html) Oh, Daily Fail, you manage to make the HuffPo look professional. Please never change.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 17, 2014, 06:49:12 pm
Who honestly gives a toss what PZ wants? I'd be surprised if he was satisfied with a public apology.

Also criticism=/=bullying. The guy was told his shirt wasn't appropriate. He said sorry. End of story.

Funny how the people getting outragrd at this aren't equally outraged at the tidal waves of intrusive public attention directed at every wardrobe malfunction made by female public figures ever!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: lord gibbon on November 17, 2014, 06:53:22 pm
Whatever happened to PZ, anyway? I'm pretty sure he wasn't always a joke.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Murdin on November 17, 2014, 06:57:21 pm
Who honestly gives a toss what PZ wants? I'd be surprised if he was satisfied with a public apology.

I'm almost as surprised as you are, but PZ is at least pretenting to be over him.

Also criticism=/=bullying. The guy was told his shirt wasn't appropriate. He said sorry. End of story.

... that was my point, really  :-\ Sorry if I wasn't clear enough about it.

Whatever happened to PZ, anyway? I'm pretty sure he wasn't always a joke.

Elevatorgate happened.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: mythbuster43 on November 17, 2014, 07:25:24 pm
Oh God, the Glenn Reynolds article. Christ, that man is the human personification of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, the perfect combination of ignorance and smugness.

This whole shirt controversy reminds me of the brouhaha some morons had over the Super Bowl Coca-Cola ads back in February. I honestly can't understand why the human race chooses to get so pissed off over such minor unimportant things.

Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 17, 2014, 08:12:12 pm
And you really think it was about women in science?  No, they were just looking for an excuse to be offended.

A decent share of the people complaining about the shirt were, y'know, women in science.

Quote from: Phil Plait
If you think this is just complaining from wannabes who can’t hold a candle to someone who just landed a probe on a comet, you’re wrong. Talk to my friend, the cosmologist Katie Mack. Or the planetary scientist Sarah Horst. Or geologist Mika McKinnon. Or planetary geologist Emily Lakdawalla. Or radio astronomer Nicole Gugliucci. Or professor and science communicator extraordinaire Pamela Gay. Or Carolyn Porco, who worked on the Voyager mission and is the leader of the Cassini imaging team, the space probe that’s been orbiting Saturn for over a decade now.

(source) (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/17/casual_sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html).

Were there people who were just jumping on the latest internet outrage? Sure. But you of all people I would expect to be wary of judging a group by its worst members.

Quote
In fact, they're actually hurting science by saying that something as banal and superficial as a few spots of skin on a shirt is more worthy of attention than a spacecraft landing on a comet for the first time in human history.

Anyone who did in fact say so would be wrong. Never seen anyone say it, though.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 18, 2014, 01:21:01 am
What if he wore an anti-semitic shirt? Would it have been legitimate to be angry about that? Or is there some bubble in time that prevents discussion of that, also?

Apples and potatoes.  Dude's wearing a shirt with depictions of women he finds attractive, not a shirt with a massive swastika on it or one covered in A. Wyatt Mann comics.  There's a rather VAST distance between the two that makes the Grand Canyon look like a pig wallow.

But the principle is the same. People would be mad about an anti-semitic shirt because it degrades Jews. People were mad about this shirt because it degrades women, in their opinion. You might think it is more acceptable to degrade women, but that's a matter of opinion.

PZ Myer's blog seems to make sense, to me. Remember, here are the three things that need to be done beyond apologising

It’s a good first step. But there’s more that needs to be done, since Matt Taylor is only a small part of the problem.

Quote
There’s clearly a problem at ESA that allowed this to happen — somebody should have said, “Whoa, Matt — you’re not going in front of the cameras looking like that.” The administration needs to speak up, too, and confess their failure.

There needs to be more commitment to equality and diversity. It’s all well and good to say you’re sorry after you screw up, but it’s more important to have an active program of support for women and minorities in science…and by reputation, engineering-heavy enterprises are particularly in need of a culture shift.

And finally, there’s a problem that can’t be pinned on Taylor or his bosses: our internet assholes. The reaction was far worse than the shirt, with, for example, @roseveleth getting goddamned death threats for a sarcastic remark. We had our own share here of ponderous, tedious, clueless guys expressing their inability to understand how having soft porn pictures all over your mission leader’s clothing might possibly create a chilly work climate for the women on the team.

Which of those is outrageous or offensive? The third isn't even a thing anyone needs to do; he's basically just saying be nicer on the internet.

In short, he wants 1) an apology from the team as a whole to women who might have been offended by a degrading porn shirt, and 2) general benign feminist reform.

This is not crazy. This is not idiotic attention-seeking social justice silliness. This is sense.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 18, 2014, 02:07:57 am
Number one makes sense to me. If I appeared in front of my adult ESL students wearing that shirt you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be rapped over the knuckles and the school would issue a formal apology not just to the students but also the press and each individual community leader representing the different ethnic groups present.

Number two is just basic health and safety, safety includes a non threatening and non bullying environment. It doesn't fucking matter if you're not offended-the fact that it can be reasnobly be said to be intimidating and/or offensive to an entire class of workers is good grounds for not taking it to work.

Wear it at a metal, punk or biker bar-awesome! Work isn't the time or the place for that shirt.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: RavynousHunter on November 18, 2014, 11:22:48 am
@Fred: I never said it was okay to degrade women, I just don't believe an effing shirt contributes toward the degradation of an entire gender, unless it crosses a rather easily visible line.  Basically, a shirt with sexy women on it is no reason for outrage, maybe a comment of "that isn't entirely appropriate," but not the vast amounts of bitching we see from members of the Internet Whinging Machine.  If the shirt had pictures of women getting screwed or said "Women are sluts, fuck them on sight," or something equally vulgar, then it'd be cause for outrage.  As it is, some people have decided to jump on something that is a complete non-issue, outside one of personal taste and maybe tact.

@Tol: I fail to see how a shirt like that would be in any way intimidating to anyone except the most thin-skinned people on the planet, the same goes for it being offensive.  I'll cop to it being tacky and in poor taste, however.

Yes, STEM fields need to be more accessible to women, institutionalized sexism in those areas is markedly prevalent to an unsettling degree, but folks are jumping over one dude wearing a tacky shirt.  Where the hell is the outrage when little girls are told by society that they should be homemakers, seamstresses, or bakers, but not physicists, engineers, or programmers?  Where is all this outpouring of anger toward STEM field employers who pass over well-qualified female candidates in favour of a male candidate with inferior qualifications?  Once again, we see people attacking the symptoms, but not the actual disease, because actually dealing with the cancer rotting away the guts of social, scientific, and technological progress is hard, and its much easier to just be angry at a dude in a tacky shirt.

For those who actually are attacking the real problems, this rant does not apply to you.  You guys are cool, keep doing what you're doing.  For those folks who are out there just to hit soft targets, grow a pair and take on the actual issues.  We need people who can actually fight a war, not just participate in petty border skirmishes.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: WatermelonRat on November 18, 2014, 11:28:41 am
We must destroy outdated notions like women caring more about fashion than science by focusing on a guy's shirt rather than his scientific contributions.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2chfXFCEAAgqI5.jpg:large)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: solar. on November 18, 2014, 02:51:38 pm
From what I've heard, he wore the shirt because his wife's friend made it, and he wore it to commemorate their friendship. It's okay to be offended, but I think the feminists went too far. They made him cry ffs.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 18, 2014, 03:56:54 pm
@Fred: I never said it was okay to degrade women, I just don't believe an effing shirt contributes toward the degradation of an entire gender, unless it crosses a rather easily visible line.  Basically, a shirt with sexy women on it is no reason for outrage, maybe a comment of "that isn't entirely appropriate," but not the vast amounts of bitching we see from members of the Internet Whinging Machine. 
Cart before the horse, he did initially receive mostly mild rebukes from fellow scientists. The “internet whinging machine” cranked into gear when people got wind of the story and started shouting about “political correctness gone maaaaaadddd…
@Tol: I fail to see how a shirt like that would be in any way intimidating to anyone except the most thin-skinned people on the planet, the same goes for it being offensive. 
Yes, STEM fields need to be more accessible to women, institutionalized sexism in those areas is markedly prevalent to an unsettling degree, but folks are jumping over one dude wearing a tacky shirt.  Where the hell is the outrage when little girls are told by society that they should be homemakers, seamstresses, or bakers, but not physicists, engineers, or programmers?  Where is all this outpouring of anger toward STEM field employers who pass over well-qualified female candidates in favour of a male candidate with inferior qualifications?  Once again, we see people attacking the symptoms, but not the actual disease, because actually dealing with the cancer rotting away the guts of social, scientific, and technological progress is hard, and its much easier to just be angry at a dude in a tacky shirt.
I’ll let Phil Plait (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/17/casual_sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html) answer this one
Quote
So yeah, it’s just a shirt.
And it’s just an ad.
It’s just a saying.
It’s just a TV show.
It’s just the Internet.
Yes, but you almost make as much as a man does.
It’s just a catcall.
It’s a compliment!
It’s just that boys will be boys.
It’s just that she’s a slut.
It’s just that your dress is too short.
It’s just that we want to know what you were wearing at the time, ma’am.
It’s just it’s just it’s just.
It’s just a death by a thousand cuts. No one cut does the deed. In the end, they all do.
 
We must destroy outdated notions like women caring more about fashion than science by focusing on a guy's shirt rather than his scientific contributions.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2chfXFCEAAgqI5.jpg:large)
Those “imbeciles” being:
Quote
cosmologist Katie Mack. Or the planetary scientist Sarah Horst. Or geologist Mika McKinnon. Or astrophysicist Catherine Q. Or planetary geologist Emily Lakdawalla. Or radio astronomer Nicole Gugliucci. Or professor and science communicator extraordinaire Pamela Gay. Or Carolyn Porco, who worked on theVoyager mission and is the leader of the Cassini imaging team, the space probe that’s been orbiting Saturn for over a decade now.
From what I've heard, he wore the shirt because his wife's friend made it, and he wore it to commemorate their friendship. It's okay to be offended, but I think the feminists went too far. They made him cry ffs.
A guy makes a genuine, heartfelt apology and the internet can’t accept it for what it is-rather they draw a narrative where the only way anyone could do that was if they were shown the instruments of torture!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 18, 2014, 04:11:14 pm
Yes, STEM fields need to be more accessible to women, institutionalized sexism in those areas is markedly prevalent to an unsettling degree, but folks are jumping over one dude wearing a tacky shirt.  Where the hell is the outrage when little girls are told by society that they should be homemakers, seamstresses, or bakers, but not physicists, engineers, or programmers?  Where is all this outpouring of anger toward STEM field employers who pass over well-qualified female candidates in favour of a male candidate with inferior qualifications?  Once again, we see people attacking the symptoms, but not the actual disease, because actually dealing with the cancer rotting away the guts of social, scientific, and technological progress is hard, and its much easier to just be angry at a dude in a tacky shirt.

For those who actually are attacking the real problems, this rant does not apply to you.  You guys are cool, keep doing what you're doing.  For those folks who are out there just to hit soft targets, grow a pair and take on the actual issues.  We need people who can actually fight a war, not just participate in petty border skirmishes.

Literally every person I've seen complain about that shirt has a long history of complaining about every form of sexism in STEM fields. Indeed, they've all pretty much said "the shirt by itself is not the problem, it's that just one more thing in the long list of things that contribute to a hostile environment towards women in science".

I mean, yes, that's anecdotal. I know how internet outrage works, I know there's going to be idiots jumping on the hate bandwagon for pretty much everything. But those idiots are irrelevant. They provide zero information on whether the shirt was or was not out of place. There's a real discussion to be had on where offensive clothing crosses the line, and I can understand reasonable people disagreeing on that, but why bother to address the idiots? Why not talk to the people who actually care about women in STEM and whose criticism of that shirt comes from that angle?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: dpareja on November 18, 2014, 05:17:56 pm
(http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/apoDZKB_700b.jpg)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 18, 2014, 05:54:59 pm
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/865/043/d19.png)

And now Boris Johnson weighs in:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11234620/Dr-Matt-Taylors-shirt-made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11234620/Dr-Matt-Taylors-shirt-made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 18, 2014, 06:17:38 pm
@Fred: I never said it was okay to degrade women, I just don't believe an effing shirt contributes toward the degradation of an entire gender, unless it crosses a rather easily visible line.  Basically, a shirt with sexy women on it is no reason for outrage, maybe a comment of "that isn't entirely appropriate," but not the vast amounts of bitching we see from members of the Internet Whinging Machine.  If the shirt had pictures of women getting screwed or said "Women are sluts, fuck them on sight," or something equally vulgar, then it'd be cause for outrage.  As it is, some people have decided to jump on something that is a complete non-issue, outside one of personal taste and maybe tact.

Others disagree. I'm sure you accept that your opinion is not the final say.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 18, 2014, 06:26:12 pm
Wow, Fred. Wow.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Canadian Mojo on November 18, 2014, 07:57:24 pm
I don't suppose STEM enrollment would be helped by helping to dispel the notion that its only for nerds and geeks running around wearing lab coats and pocket protectors.  ;D
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 18, 2014, 08:21:22 pm
Wow, Fred. Wow.

Well, we can impose our own views on others, or we can take the women who actually currently work in science and say this is a serious problem seriously. Up to you.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 18, 2014, 08:28:28 pm
I don't suppose STEM enrollment would be helped by helping to dispel the notion that its only for nerds and geeks running around wearing lab coats and pocket protectors.  ;D
Workplace gear is a fashion statement now?

So builders must really dig neon yellow and chefs must just love their black and white checks!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Murdin on November 18, 2014, 08:53:10 pm
Removed the part about UP and dpareja's posts, because honestly, I'm done with this drama. As Ironbite said, Taylor decided to apologize. This should have been the end of the discussion.

And now Boris Johnson weighs in:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11234620/Dr-Matt-Taylors-shirt-made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11234620/Dr-Matt-Taylors-shirt-made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html)

Boris Johnson is talking out of his dysenteric ass. This goes even beyond the expected barrage of hyperboles - they are like Stalin, they are like Mao, they are like the Catholic Church, yawn.

The shirt should not have offended anyone because "there are no nipples; there are no buttocks; there is not even an exposed midriff"? And those offended are hypocrites because they hail Kim Kardashian as an example of wholesomeness? His prudishness must be on a trajectory to leave the solar system, after projecting it so fucking hard. I just hope it won't collide with the point that is flying thousands of kilometers above his head.

And of course, there is his hilarious claim that no one dared come to the defense of Dr. Taylor. No one but Johnson himself, apparently. Such a fearless hero of truth and justice he is.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: ironbite on November 18, 2014, 08:54:51 pm
As far as I'm concerned, this is a non issue.  He apologized.  That's it.  This is nothing, a unissue.  Let the man get back to work on the data.

Ironbite-hate this generation.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
As far as I'm concerned, this is a non issue.  He apologized.  That's it.  This is nothing, a unissue.  Let the man get back to work on the data.

Ironbite-hate this generation.
*Claps*
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Canadian Mojo on November 19, 2014, 07:37:44 am
I don't suppose STEM enrollment would be helped by helping to dispel the notion that its only for nerds and geeks running around wearing lab coats and pocket protectors.  ;D
Workplace gear is a fashion statement now?

So builders must really dig neon yellow and chefs must just love their black and white checks!
Actually, builders wear yellow so they don't get run over by a bulldozer. Chefs on the other hand wear checks because they like it.

But seriously, pay no mind to me, I'm just making smart ass comments about a tempest in a teapot over how groups of people are unflatteringly portrayed and those who are trying to change it.

Personally, I'm of the mind that since this is a project that is over ten years the making, the people involved should be allowed to be wearing all manner of silly clothing and doing keg stands during the interview.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 19, 2014, 11:44:55 pm
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 19, 2014, 11:57:36 pm
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.

I'm sorry, but do you know what you're implying?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 20, 2014, 12:37:51 am
Okay, here's what I said in non-rant terms: earlier in this thread I saw you and Dpar comparing the astronomy man being criticized/harassed for what he was wearing to someone being raped and told they deserve it for what they wore.

While I recognize this was not a literal comparison (don't worry, sig), I still find the comparison trivializes rape victims in a similar manner to how invoking Hitler or the Nazis tends to trivialize the holocaust.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 20, 2014, 12:42:58 am
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 20, 2014, 02:32:54 am
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 20, 2014, 03:02:54 am
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link (https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth), you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on November 20, 2014, 09:28:45 am
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link (https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth), you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!

Something tells me there are some details we're not getting.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 20, 2014, 04:00:55 pm
Just a general thought:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2oGKmoIYAA3xJF.png:large)

This is clearly true about me as well. I don't think that's necessarily a flaw unique to myself; I think a lot of people probably don't care about stuff that has direct significance to their life - or, at least, a symbol of something of significance in their life. Hence this shirt becomes a big deal. Nobody lands on a comet every day, but they do experience casual sexism.

What does that mean for science? I'm not sure. Is it really necessary for this stuff to be publicly popular? Obviously everyone wants their efforts to be recognised, but does it matter that the public don't follow science closely?

From a journalistic perspective, I think most science journalism is a waste of time and resources. The public interest, after all is: what I need to know to live happily. You have to know all sorts of complicated things about government to make an informed vote, because otherwise we have a distorted political system. If we have a broken political system, you can't live happily. Almost all journalism is not in the public interest, including all crime journalism, all sports journalism, ect.

So, why do we think science should be in the headlines? I have an emotional, intuitive support for that view, but no actual reason for it. Can anyone give me a good argument?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 20, 2014, 04:15:38 pm
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link (https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth), you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!

Something tells me there are some details we're not getting.
Something tells me you and Dpar both enjoy wearing fur suits and have accounts on FA.

In other words: Conspiracy theories don't make your comparison acceptable.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 20, 2014, 08:36:23 pm
Just a general thought:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2oGKmoIYAA3xJF.png:large)

This is clearly true about me as well. I don't think that's necessarily a flaw unique to myself; I think a lot of people probably don't care about stuff that has direct significance to their life - or, at least, a symbol of something of significance in their life. Hence this shirt becomes a big deal. Nobody lands on a comet every day, but they do experience casual sexism.

What does that mean for science? I'm not sure. Is it really necessary for this stuff to be publicly popular? Obviously everyone wants their efforts to be recognised, but does it matter that the public don't follow science closely?

From a journalistic perspective, I think most science journalism is a waste of time and resources. The public interest, after all is: what I need to know to live happily. You have to know all sorts of complicated things about government to make an informed vote, because otherwise we have a distorted political system. If we have a broken political system, you can't live happily. Almost all journalism is not in the public interest, including all crime journalism, all sports journalism, ect.

So, why do we think science should be in the headlines? I have an emotional, intuitive support for that view, but no actual reason for it. Can anyone give me a good argument?

There's the obvious "people enjoy hearing about new science" angle, but that's more entertainment than public interest. One could argue that's the actual reason science is in the news, and everything else is post-hoc rationalizations for newspapers to include stuff that sells.

Regardless, there are a number of public interest reasons.

1) Exciting new science is a big draw for science popularization, and science popularization is how you get people interested in becoming scientists, which are big plus to civilization (but adjust for my obvious bias here).

2) People having at least some knowledge of what scientists are working on helps bridge the gap between academia and society. The more approachable science seems, the more likely people are to take it into account.

3) Some science has direct relevance to decision-making, e.g. global climate change. Some science has indirect relevance, e.g. knowing what NASA is doing can help you evaluate whether we might want to cut or increase its budget.

4) It would be pretty fucking sad for the average person in a technologically advanced society to have no idea what their society is capable of, be it genetic engineering or space travel or analysing brains with an fMRI. I admit "it would be sad" is not an argument, but going with instinct here, I suspect there are relevant effects from the average non-scientist knowing at least where the cutting edge of science is roughly located. Even if it is just to be able to tell at a glance whether some proposal is currently impossible or not.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 20, 2014, 08:45:41 pm
I think you've made a couple of really good points, and I thank you for responding seriously to an honest issue. It's very rare on these internets we've got. I have to leave right now, but be sure I will respond tomorrow or so.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 20, 2014, 10:17:12 pm
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.

I'm sorry, but do you know what you're implying?
Out of curiousity, what do you think I'm implying?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 20, 2014, 11:12:02 pm
The American Astronomical Society throws in their two cents (http://aas.org/posts/news/2014/11/aas-issues-statement-shirtgateshirtstorm).

Quote
The past few days have seen extensive international discussion of an incident (known online as #shirtstorm or #shirtgate) in which a participant in a European Space Agency media conference wore a shirt with sexualized images of gun-toting women and made an unfortunate remark comparing the featured spacecraft to a woman. Viewers responded critically to these inappropriate statements, especially jarring in such a highly visible setting (one in which very few women appeared), and the scientist apologized sincerely. But in the meantime, unacceptable abuse has been directed toward the critics, from criticism of “over-active feminism” to personal insults and more dire threats.

We wish to express our support for members of the community who rightly brought this issue to the fore, and we condemn the unreasonable attacks they experienced as a result, which caused deep distress in our community. We do appreciate the scientist’s sincere and unqualified apology.

The AAS has a clear anti-harassment policy, which prohibits “verbal comments or physical actions of a sexual nature” and “a display of sexually suggestive objects or pictures.” Had the offending images appeared and comments been made under the auspices of the AAS, they would be in clear violation of our policy.

Can we bury this stupid non-issue now?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 20, 2014, 11:14:07 pm
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 20, 2014, 11:19:48 pm
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Danm feminazis  :(
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 20, 2014, 11:21:52 pm
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Danm feminazis  :(

FemiStasi- excuse me.

Feminazi is insufficiently culturally Marxist!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 21, 2014, 09:07:09 pm
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Okay, what exactly did this joke even mean?
Are you trying to say this will lead to the Jewluminati destroying America with PC?
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 21, 2014, 09:10:33 pm
They oppose Apple?

No guesses what that joke even means, it's just terrible.

Apologies to one and all.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 21, 2014, 09:33:41 pm
I would also like to, again, tell paragon and Dpar not to make rape comparisons.

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/d1295198d37ccc37a492be91bd0330d1/tumblr_mlf8k2tDRT1sou3fto1_r1_1280.png)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 21, 2014, 10:06:24 pm
Wow.

Way to put words in my mouth, you two. I was joking about him comparing the satellite itself to a woman, unaware if it had any negative context. Also, female-based personification is...like really old.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 21, 2014, 10:14:26 pm
Wow.

Yiff, you two. I was joking about him comparing the satellite itself to a woman, unaware if it had any negative context. Also, female-based personification is...like really old.
Huh? Oh, didn't completely get the context (Tbh i just skimmed the letter). I wasn't being serious about the Jewluminati.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/3a54fd3a66b0c8df6339c5d87177e47f/tumblr_mlf8paqMSm1sou3fto1_r1_250.png)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 21, 2014, 10:24:19 pm
Wow.

Yiff, you two. I was joking about him comparing the satellite itself to a woman, unaware if it had any negative context. Also, female-based personification is...like really old.
Huh? Oh, didn't completely get the context (Tbh i just skimmed the letter). I wasn't being serious about the Jewluminati.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/3a54fd3a66b0c8df6339c5d87177e47f/tumblr_mlf8paqMSm1sou3fto1_r1_250.png)
Vhat.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 22, 2014, 12:35:24 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Askold on November 22, 2014, 12:41:09 am
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Danm feminazis  :(

FemiStasi- excuse me.

Feminazi is insufficiently culturally Marxist!

Stasi was insufficiently culturally Marxist! (It would have needed at least 22,3% more Marxsist culture!)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 22, 2014, 12:42:26 am
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Danm feminazis  :(

FemiStasi- excuse me.

Feminazi is insufficiently culturally Marxist!

Stasi was insufficiently culturally Marxist! (It would have needed at least 22,3% more Marxsist culture!)
LONG LINES TO GET CANNED SOUP!
SHITTY CARS!
DEPRESSING BUILDINGS!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: dpareja on November 22, 2014, 01:07:51 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.

Hi.

The point is that it's hypocritical to say that, on the one hand, there are things people don't deserve because of what they are wearing, and on the other that there are things that people do deserve because of what they are wearing.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 22, 2014, 01:23:45 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.

Hi.

The point is that it's hypocritical to say that, on the one hand, there are things people don't deserve because of what they are wearing, and on the other that there are things that people do deserve because of what they are wearing.
That's not hypocritical at all.

It's no different than saying it's wrong to kill someone for giving an opinion but it's okay to mock or criticize them.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: dpareja on November 22, 2014, 02:12:23 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.

Hi.

The point is that it's hypocritical to say that, on the one hand, there are things people don't deserve because of what they are wearing, and on the other that there are things that people do deserve because of what they are wearing.
That's not hypocritical at all.

It's no different than saying it's wrong to kill someone for giving an opinion but it's okay to mock or criticize them.

Nope. You're missing the point.

It's not that rape is comparable to criticism. It's that the defence of the action--that the person deserved it because of what they were wearing--is the same, and it's hypocritical to use that defence in one case and say it's invalid in another.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: SCarpelan on November 22, 2014, 02:16:33 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.

Hi.

The point is that it's hypocritical to say that, on the one hand, there are things people don't deserve because of what they are wearing, and on the other that there are things that people do deserve because of what they are wearing.
Someone wearing revealing clothing is expressing their own sexuality using their own body and even then people usually realize where and when it's appropriate to do so. By wearing the shirt the scientist was objectifying other people, not himself. This wouldn't be such a big issue if it wasn't a symptom of a greater problem. Erotic displays are fine in proper context but in this case him wearing the shirt was an example of the boys' club mentality in the community that's making many women uncomfortable. That mentality is is the ultimate target of the criticism, not the shirt itself. So yes, these are two different things and no, there is no hypocrisy.

The level of emotion and vitriol in the discussion is another thing altogether. People should be able to discuss this kind of issues more calmly and neither blame people unwittingly doing something inappropriate nor react too strongly to criticism. Too often people seem to have a black and white concept about issues like sexism and racism. If you point out that something a person does has meanings they haven't thought about doesn't mean that you think they are an exceptionally sexist or racist person.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 22, 2014, 07:23:57 am
Nope. You're missing the point.

It's not that rape is comparable to criticism. It's that the defence of the action--that the person deserved it because of what they were wearing--is the same, and it's hypocritical to use that defence in one case and say it's invalid in another.

Well there is some fine detail there, on the one hand we are talking about rape and on the other we are talking about people saying that certain attire is inappropriate for work.

Someone getting negative feedback because the other person didn't like their clothes =/= someone getting raped and the rapist saying they did it because they really liked their revealing clothes.

Not the same. Is that controversial? No, I don't think so. Really not the same thing!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Lt. Fred on November 22, 2014, 09:04:44 am
Just a general thought:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2oGKmoIYAA3xJF.png:large)

This is clearly true about me as well. I don't think that's necessarily a flaw unique to myself; I think a lot of people probably don't care about stuff that has direct significance to their life - or, at least, a symbol of something of significance in their life. Hence this shirt becomes a big deal. Nobody lands on a comet every day, but they do experience casual sexism.

What does that mean for science? I'm not sure. Is it really necessary for this stuff to be publicly popular? Obviously everyone wants their efforts to be recognised, but does it matter that the public don't follow science closely?

From a journalistic perspective, I think most science journalism is a waste of time and resources. The public interest, after all is: what I need to know to live happily. You have to know all sorts of complicated things about government to make an informed vote, because otherwise we have a distorted political system. If we have a broken political system, you can't live happily. Almost all journalism is not in the public interest, including all crime journalism, all sports journalism, ect.

So, why do we think science should be in the headlines? I have an emotional, intuitive support for that view, but no actual reason for it. Can anyone give me a good argument?

1) Exciting new science is a big draw for science popularization, and science popularization is how you get people interested in becoming scientists, which are big plus to civilization (but adjust for my obvious bias here).

Are there better ways to do this? I think there are probably better ways to do this. In any case, the moralistic, nerdier-than-thou ethic proposed by the pro-sexism side of this "debate" is counter-productive. You make science interesting to children by making it interesting, not by demanding human nature change and abusing children for acting like people have always acted when faced by something fairly boring (like a science experiment, if you don't do it right).

In short, if children don't find some scientific discovery cool, that's your fault, not theirs. Shouting at them will make it worse. This is probably why it is done.

Quote
2) People having at least some knowledge of what scientists are working on helps bridge the gap between academia and society. The more approachable science seems, the more likely people are to take it into account.

I agree with this, to a degree. I definitely agree that the academia/layperson divide is destructive. This is an issue individual scientists have made a lot of headway into fixing. Sites like the Conversation routinely explain major scientific discovery in an easily digestible way. So the problem is no longer the way scientists present information. This is just shit journalism, the primary problem behind perhaps 50% of what is wrong with humanity.

Quote
3) Some science has direct relevance to decision-making, e.g. global climate change. Some science has indirect relevance, e.g. knowing what NASA is doing can help you evaluate whether we might want to cut or increase its budget.

This is true. The instrumental effects of gee-whiz science are useful. It's difficult for Republicans to cut funding from something really cool. Again, I think the easier solution is to remove the Republican rather than make everything cool. Human nature isn't going to change.

Quote
4) It would be pretty fucking sad for the average person in a technologically advanced society to have no idea what their society is capable of, be it genetic engineering or space travel or analysing brains with an fMRI. I admit "it would be sad" is not an argument, but going with instinct here, I suspect there are relevant effects from the average non-scientist knowing at least where the cutting edge of science is roughly located. Even if it is just to be able to tell at a glance whether some proposal is currently impossible or not.

Would it though? How much do you know about, say, medical science? I know roughly nothing. I don't think this is unusual.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Sigmaleph on November 22, 2014, 10:50:02 am
1) Exciting new science is a big draw for science popularization, and science popularization is how you get people interested in becoming scientists, which are big plus to civilization (but adjust for my obvious bias here).

Are there better ways to do this? I think there are probably better ways to do this.

Is that an either/or proposition? We use multiple ways to acheive the same goal, if they aren't mutually exclusive.

Quote
In any case, the moralistic, nerdier-than-thou ethic proposed by the pro-sexism side of this "debate" is counter-productive. You make science interesting to children by making it interesting, not by demanding human nature change and abusing children for acting like people have always acted when faced by something fairly boring (like a science experiment, if you don't do it right).

In short, if children don't find some scientific discovery cool, that's your fault, not theirs. Shouting at them will make it worse. This is probably why it is done.

I'm afraid you lost me here. Which side is in favour of shouting at children?

Quote
Quote
2) People having at least some knowledge of what scientists are working on helps bridge the gap between academia and society. The more approachable science seems, the more likely people are to take it into account.

I agree with this, to a degree. I definitely agree that the academia/layperson divide is destructive. This is an issue individual scientists have made a lot of headway into fixing. Sites like the Conversation routinely explain major scientific discovery in an easily digestible way. So the problem is no longer the way scientists present information. This is just shit journalism, the primary problem behind perhaps 50% of what is wrong with humanity.
There is a lot of shit science journalism, and I'm all for fixing that. I don't think that requires scrapping the whole thing.

Quote
Quote
3) Some science has direct relevance to decision-making, e.g. global climate change. Some science has indirect relevance, e.g. knowing what NASA is doing can help you evaluate whether we might want to cut or increase its budget.

This is true. The instrumental effects of gee-whiz science are useful. It's difficult for Republicans to cut funding from something really cool. Again, I think the easier solution is to remove the Republican rather than make everything cool. Human nature isn't going to change.

My point was not "make science cool so it's politically costly to cut its funding". My point was "let people know what science funding is actually buying, so they can better evaluate how much of the budget we should give it". Among others things.

Also, isn't "remove the Republican" also trying to change human nature? Republicans and their voters are more or less an emergent property of human nature.

Quote
Quote
4) It would be pretty fucking sad for the average person in a technologically advanced society to have no idea what their society is capable of, be it genetic engineering or space travel or analysing brains with an fMRI. I admit "it would be sad" is not an argument, but going with instinct here, I suspect there are relevant effects from the average non-scientist knowing at least where the cutting edge of science is roughly located. Even if it is just to be able to tell at a glance whether some proposal is currently impossible or not.

Would it though? How much do you know about, say, medical science? I know roughly nothing. I don't think this is unusual.

To use something that I can guarantee I heard from science journalism and not other sources, I know there are experimental procedures to actually cure HIV using bone marrow transplants from naturally immune people. I also know that so far they have only been confirmed to work on one person. This is immediately relevant to me; I know people who are HIV-positive. If someone offers them a reliable cure, I can tell them it's a scam and to be wary of anyone who offers anything other than a long-shot experimental treatment.

A convoluted hypothetical, maybe. Nobody has actually come to me offering cures for HIV. But the general principle stands; people being offered technological solutions to their problems should have some basic awareness of what is and isn't possible. This could go from the average person being offered a cure for cancer to the investor being sold a cold fusion reactor to the society being offered a space colonization program.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 22, 2014, 11:49:48 am
Paragon and Dpar pls acknowledge.

Hi.

The point is that it's hypocritical to say that, on the one hand, there are things people don't deserve because of what they are wearing, and on the other that there are things that people do deserve because of what they are wearing.
That's not hypocritical at all.

It's no different than saying it's wrong to kill someone for giving an opinion but it's okay to mock or criticize them.

Nope. You're missing the point.

It's not that rape is comparable to criticism. It's that the defence of the action--that the person deserved it because of what they were wearing--is the same, and it's hypocritical to use that defence in one case and say it's invalid in another.
Read what I said above, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't understand what I was saying do I'll explain it again.

If I say Bill o' Riley deserves to be mocked because he says stupid shit, I would be justified.
If I say that you can't justify sending death threats to someone because they have a stupid opinion it would be justified.

Alternatively, the "Not all X" defense, justified in cases of actually claiming all of group x are bad, not justified as a way to randomly dismiss all criticism against group x.

Basically my point is that yes, certain defenses can be valid in one case and invalid the next case.
Is this understood?

Have some drilbert
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/17108b138135c706dd01c71151e51f10/tumblr_mlf8jpaaiZ1sou3fto1_r1_1280.png)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Dakota Bob on November 22, 2014, 05:52:00 pm
I don't get that comic.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 24, 2014, 08:06:26 pm
So, Dpar, are you not responding because you've lost interest, because you don't want a shirtstorm to occur, or because you've accepted my god like point as truth.

https://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Seinfeld/ (https://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Seinfeld/)
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 24, 2014, 08:18:48 pm
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: dpareja on November 24, 2014, 11:06:50 pm
So, Dpar, are you not responding because you've lost interest, because you don't want a shirtstorm to occur, or because you've accepted my god like point as truth.

https://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Seinfeld/ (https://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Seinfeld/)

Because I've decided it's not worth arguing the point.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 26, 2014, 03:34:50 pm
How bout this: criticizing his shirt isn't comparable to victim blaming, but is still wrong as the shirt isn't sexist.

Their, compromise .


Also, UP is a massive tool.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 28, 2014, 05:42:13 pm
.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Second Coming of Madman on November 28, 2014, 05:47:21 pm
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Dakota Bob on November 28, 2014, 06:36:41 pm
Always wanted to know what happens when a lizard goes insane.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 30, 2014, 12:43:12 pm
Make a thread this pointless again and they'll be more shitposting.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: Askold on November 30, 2014, 01:28:50 pm
Except that this thread wasn't completely pointless. While on the other hand, the scandal over the shirt was an overreaction.
Title: Re: #Shirtstorm
Post by: I am lizard on November 30, 2014, 01:41:02 pm
Except that this thread wasn't completely pointless. While on the other hand, the scandal over the shirt was an overreaction.
1. Okay, it wasn't pointless, just meaningless in a cosmic sense.

2. Sure, the reaction to the shirt may have been overblown, but everyone's acting as if this guy was victim to a vicious harassment campaign, and to my knowledge he wasn't.