Author Topic: #Shirtstorm  (Read 17564 times)

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Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2014, 11:44:55 pm »
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:49:24 pm by I am lizard »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2014, 11:57:36 pm »
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.

I'm sorry, but do you know what you're implying?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:59:47 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2014, 12:37:51 am »
Okay, here's what I said in non-rant terms: earlier in this thread I saw you and Dpar comparing the astronomy man being criticized/harassed for what he was wearing to someone being raped and told they deserve it for what they wore.

While I recognize this was not a literal comparison (don't worry, sig), I still find the comparison trivializes rape victims in a similar manner to how invoking Hitler or the Nazis tends to trivialize the holocaust.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:44:32 am by I am lizard »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2014, 12:42:58 am »
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.

Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2014, 02:32:54 am »
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 02:58:52 am by I am lizard »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2014, 03:02:54 am »
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link, you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2014, 09:28:45 am »
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link, you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!

Something tells me there are some details we're not getting.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2014, 04:00:55 pm »
Just a general thought:



This is clearly true about me as well. I don't think that's necessarily a flaw unique to myself; I think a lot of people probably don't care about stuff that has direct significance to their life - or, at least, a symbol of something of significance in their life. Hence this shirt becomes a big deal. Nobody lands on a comet every day, but they do experience casual sexism.

What does that mean for science? I'm not sure. Is it really necessary for this stuff to be publicly popular? Obviously everyone wants their efforts to be recognised, but does it matter that the public don't follow science closely?

From a journalistic perspective, I think most science journalism is a waste of time and resources. The public interest, after all is: what I need to know to live happily. You have to know all sorts of complicated things about government to make an informed vote, because otherwise we have a distorted political system. If we have a broken political system, you can't live happily. Almost all journalism is not in the public interest, including all crime journalism, all sports journalism, ect.

So, why do we think science should be in the headlines? I have an emotional, intuitive support for that view, but no actual reason for it. Can anyone give me a good argument?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2014, 04:15:38 pm »
I linked to a storify of the tweets aimed at the offending shirt a few pages back. Not at a proper keyboard now so can't post links.

Suffice to say they were pretty mild and mostly just saying that it wasn't appropriate for work.

Which is true of most workplaces that aren't-you know, monster truck rallies.
So basically Paragon and Dpar's comparisons were both completely uncalled for and emotionally manipulative?

There's that link, you tell me.

Let's put it this way, it's as deeply critical to most of our day to day lives as Ethics in Videogame Journalism!

Something tells me there are some details we're not getting.
Something tells me you and Dpar both enjoy wearing fur suits and have accounts on FA.

In other words: Conspiracy theories don't make your comparison acceptable.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:18:33 pm by I am lizard »

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2014, 08:36:23 pm »
Just a general thought:



This is clearly true about me as well. I don't think that's necessarily a flaw unique to myself; I think a lot of people probably don't care about stuff that has direct significance to their life - or, at least, a symbol of something of significance in their life. Hence this shirt becomes a big deal. Nobody lands on a comet every day, but they do experience casual sexism.

What does that mean for science? I'm not sure. Is it really necessary for this stuff to be publicly popular? Obviously everyone wants their efforts to be recognised, but does it matter that the public don't follow science closely?

From a journalistic perspective, I think most science journalism is a waste of time and resources. The public interest, after all is: what I need to know to live happily. You have to know all sorts of complicated things about government to make an informed vote, because otherwise we have a distorted political system. If we have a broken political system, you can't live happily. Almost all journalism is not in the public interest, including all crime journalism, all sports journalism, ect.

So, why do we think science should be in the headlines? I have an emotional, intuitive support for that view, but no actual reason for it. Can anyone give me a good argument?

There's the obvious "people enjoy hearing about new science" angle, but that's more entertainment than public interest. One could argue that's the actual reason science is in the news, and everything else is post-hoc rationalizations for newspapers to include stuff that sells.

Regardless, there are a number of public interest reasons.

1) Exciting new science is a big draw for science popularization, and science popularization is how you get people interested in becoming scientists, which are big plus to civilization (but adjust for my obvious bias here).

2) People having at least some knowledge of what scientists are working on helps bridge the gap between academia and society. The more approachable science seems, the more likely people are to take it into account.

3) Some science has direct relevance to decision-making, e.g. global climate change. Some science has indirect relevance, e.g. knowing what NASA is doing can help you evaluate whether we might want to cut or increase its budget.

4) It would be pretty fucking sad for the average person in a technologically advanced society to have no idea what their society is capable of, be it genetic engineering or space travel or analysing brains with an fMRI. I admit "it would be sad" is not an argument, but going with instinct here, I suspect there are relevant effects from the average non-scientist knowing at least where the cutting edge of science is roughly located. Even if it is just to be able to tell at a glance whether some proposal is currently impossible or not.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2014, 08:45:41 pm »
I think you've made a couple of really good points, and I thank you for responding seriously to an honest issue. It's very rare on these internets we've got. I have to leave right now, but be sure I will respond tomorrow or so.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2014, 10:17:12 pm »
Ok, how bad was his harassment anyway? And don't say "bad enough to drive him to crying." because that just tells me his own reaction.

I mean, I better see some really fucked up rape/death threats to justify Up and Dpar's comparisons.

I'm sorry, but do you know what you're implying?
Out of curiousity, what do you think I'm implying?

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2014, 11:12:02 pm »
The American Astronomical Society throws in their two cents.

Quote
The past few days have seen extensive international discussion of an incident (known online as #shirtstorm or #shirtgate) in which a participant in a European Space Agency media conference wore a shirt with sexualized images of gun-toting women and made an unfortunate remark comparing the featured spacecraft to a woman. Viewers responded critically to these inappropriate statements, especially jarring in such a highly visible setting (one in which very few women appeared), and the scientist apologized sincerely. But in the meantime, unacceptable abuse has been directed toward the critics, from criticism of “over-active feminism” to personal insults and more dire threats.

We wish to express our support for members of the community who rightly brought this issue to the fore, and we condemn the unreasonable attacks they experienced as a result, which caused deep distress in our community. We do appreciate the scientist’s sincere and unqualified apology.

The AAS has a clear anti-harassment policy, which prohibits “verbal comments or physical actions of a sexual nature” and “a display of sexually suggestive objects or pictures.” Had the offending images appeared and comments been made under the auspices of the AAS, they would be in clear violation of our policy.

Can we bury this stupid non-issue now?

Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2014, 11:14:07 pm »
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
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Offline I am lizard

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Re: #Shirtstorm
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2014, 11:19:48 pm »
Well, I'll never call a ship "her" again.
Danm feminazis  :(