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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Askold on November 03, 2017, 03:08:41 am

Title: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on November 03, 2017, 03:08:41 am
So, once again, 4Chan is trying to promote white supremacism and create controversy. This time with a campaign that simply says "it's okay to be white."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/signs-saying-its-okay-to-be-white-found-at-maryland-high-school/2017/11/01/92013a26-bf3b-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?utm_term=.bb9d0cd47e44

Now -obviously- there's nothing wrong with that statement itself. The problems come from the intentions of the campaign. In fact, let's take a look at their motivations and plans: https://imgur.com/a/FFp6H

(https://i.imgur.com/esKt6kN.png)
See? They are actually thinking things through this time.

(https://i.imgur.com/BlmgTFw.png)
...Oops, your real message is starting to slip through.

(https://i.imgur.com/zrp6ALC.png)
...Wow, would you look at that.

(https://i.imgur.com/0EDAVWf.png)
...It's adorable how they assume that the average poster is hated IRL and only few of them aren't known racists who could pretend to play the straight man.

(https://i.imgur.com/seCD4kQ.jpg)


Meanwhile, this is how 4Chan responds to another message:
https://imgur.com/a/q9p9w

(https://i.imgur.com/uUigxZu.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/zUONaPG.jpg)


My take here is that the "it's okay to be white campaign" by itself is not really offensive but all the follow ups to it are and deserve criticism. Also, any criticism to "it's okay to be white" should be focused on the intentions rather than the message.

Another issue is that these days anyone I see playing the devil's advocate for white supremacists has always turned out to be a white supremacist themselves so if anyone actually is honest about their inability to understand why people who wave Nazi flags and shout Nazi slogans get called Nazis I am sorry but you are a very tiny minority.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: lord gibbon on November 03, 2017, 03:13:47 am
"Segregate by race! that's why I post images on naked Japanese women!"
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: dpareja on November 03, 2017, 05:36:20 am
"Segregate by race! that's why I post images on naked Japanese women!"

(http://img1.joyreactor.com/pics/post/auto-9gag-1608079.jpeg)
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: ironbite on November 03, 2017, 09:04:14 am
It is amazing how these delusions and fantasies have lined up to create a truly awful world.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Art Vandelay on November 03, 2017, 09:24:30 am
And of course, they're a bunch of weebs. Because nothing says white pride quite like the tacit admittance that you think a non-white culture's entertainment is better than you own.

4Chan should really stay away from politics and stick to shock humour.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 03, 2017, 09:32:11 am
I just love the fact that they think they're playing sneaky, two hundred and nine dimensional chess over a public fucking imageboard!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 03, 2017, 10:40:29 am
I just love the fact that they think they're playing sneaky, two hundred and nine dimensional chess over a public fucking imageboard!

That would be pathetic... if they hadn't succeeded. The freakouts? Played right into their hands.

How dumb do you have to be to willingly and knowingly take the bait when you have no plan and nothing to gain from doing so?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on November 03, 2017, 10:51:34 am
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 03, 2017, 12:10:38 pm
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?

Or trolls pretending to be white supremacists. With 4Chan, it's never easy to tell.

But that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that they wanted people to flip out, and that's exactly what happened. Even worse, some of these people knew what the anons were planning, and still took the bait.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on November 03, 2017, 07:59:46 pm
There is no need for such a campaign unless there is a general social attitude that being white is not somehow okay or there are a lot of people spreading that message. That's why "it's okay to be white" is harmful as a campaign message despite being superficially well-intentioned: it sends the sneaky message that people talking about white privilege think that being white makes you a bad person. This trick is something reactionary right wingers constantly use to paint anti-racism as racist against whites. Fighting this misconception is important as long but the tactics used need to be appropriate.

It's a valid opinion that ignoring the campaign would cause least damage but it's also valid to think that the flaw in the message needs to be corrected. A campaign such as this dilutes the messages of the campaigns that fight actual problems. While I would be surprised if there weren't overblown and silly responses the alt-right folks also like to take rational responses and present them in a light that makes them seem irrational freakouts.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Svata on November 04, 2017, 01:53:27 am
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?

Or trolls pretending to be white supremacists. With 4Chan, it's never easy to tell.





Because spreading white supremacist ideas is ok if you don't actually mean it. (seriously, what is even your fucking point?)




(ok that was weird. no clue why it shrunk. sorry I can't get it to the exact right size)
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on November 04, 2017, 02:47:54 am
It's like...

If you pull out a gun, point it at someone and then pull the trigger to reveal that you just had a toy gun... Then you can make the claim that you were just pretending to be a murderer and it was "just a prank bro!"

On the other hand. If you pull out a gun, point it at someone and then pull the trigger to reveal that it was a real gun and you actually shot the victim to death... You have lost the claim that it was merely a prank.

And if you actually read any of the stuff that I posted (rather than going to 8Chan and asking your buddies for a way to defend this) you will see that it's not in fact even a prank. It was from the very start a method to bring white-supremacist politics to the streets.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on November 04, 2017, 10:16:04 pm
Are people still arguing for the merits of "ironic" racism? FFS!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SomeApe on November 30, 2017, 11:44:14 am
@Lana "G.I.R.L." Reverse:
Why don't you build an aqueduct instead of carrying all that water? Think of your back!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on November 30, 2017, 04:04:26 pm
Are people still arguing for the merits of "ironic" racism? FFS!

I guess you're not a Dave Chappelle fan, then.

It's like...

If you pull out a gun, point it at someone and then pull the trigger to reveal that you just had a toy gun... Then you can make the claim that you were just pretending to be a murderer and it was "just a prank bro!"

On the other hand. If you pull out a gun, point it at someone and then pull the trigger to reveal that it was a real gun and you actually shot the victim to death... You have lost the claim that it was merely a prank.

And if you actually read any of the stuff that I posted (rather than going to 8Chan and asking your buddies for a way to defend this) you will see that it's not in fact even a prank. It was from the very start a method to bring white-supremacist politics to the streets.

No, it was an attempt to provoke outrage from the far left. OP admitted as much.

There is no need for such a campaign unless there is a general social attitude that being white is not somehow okay or there are a lot of people spreading that message. That's why "it's okay to be white" is harmful as a campaign message despite being superficially well-intentioned: it sends the sneaky message that people talking about white privilege think that being white makes you a bad person. This trick is something reactionary right wingers constantly use to paint anti-racism as racist against whites. Fighting this misconception is important as long but the tactics used need to be appropriate.

Not long ago, I would've agreed. Unfortunately, this hasn't been true for at least five years. I was there when the progressive stack was implemented at Occupy Wall Street, when members of "privileged" groups were sent to the back of the line because of their skin color or genitalia. They called it inclusiveness, but really, it was a different kind of exclusiveness.

I've heard some people suggest that the progressive stack advocates were plants intended to disrupt the movement. While I'd say that probably isn't the case, I can understand why a more conspiracy-minded person might think that. I saw the consequences firsthand, and the damage done to Occupy Wall Street.

Then it started spreading, becoming more and more common among left-wing activist organizing. For instance, when an Ithaca anti-racism rally (how ironic) was announced in 2016, the organizers admitted on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/events/196922747321950/) that PoC voices would take precedence:

Quote
On December 23rd a grand jury decided not to indict the jailers involed in the death of Sandra Bland. On December 28th a grand jury decided not to indict officer Timothy Leohmman in the extra judical killing of 12-year old Tamir Rice. On December 26th 55 year-old Betty Jones was mistakingly shot and killed by police as she opened her door. Her neighbor 19-year old Quintonio LeGrier was also killed.

This is a rally in response to these events and the increasing violence and general terror administered by police towards people of color.

The purpose of this rally is as follows:
Agitation
Mobilization
Information

We ask that people of color who would like to bring written statements/speeches to address the ralley please let us know below so that we can add you to the list of schedueled speakers.

There will be an open speak-out afterwards for those who just want to speak.

Please be sure to bring warm clothing. Please also be sure to bring any signs or pictures of thoes affected by police brutality. We will meet at the center of the commons at 1pm.

Disclaimer: If you are a reporter at this event we will not be answering any questions.

Disclaimer: If you are a white person at this event note that the voices of people of color will take precedence in rally space.

Emphasis mine.

"Back of the line, whitey."

But it didn't just happen at rallies. It also happened in classrooms. One professor flat-out admitted to calling on students of color first:

(https://c2.legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Stephanie-McKellop-Tweet-White-Men-Last.jpg)

Trying to combat discrimination using the progressive stack is like trying to save a village by destroying it.

@Lana "G.I.R.L." Reverse:
Why don't you build an aqueduct instead of carrying all that water? Think of your back!

Why don't you follow the rules?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on November 30, 2017, 05:30:01 pm
Are people still arguing for the merits of "ironic" racism? FFS!

I guess you're not a Dave Chappelle fan, then.

Well Dave Chappelle isn't, he quit the show because he thought it had gone too far and that white people were laughing at it for the wrong reasons. 

As far as the whole "Are they trolls or real Nazis":

You are walking in the wilderness and the grass starts moving.  If you think "Oh shit a Tiger!" and run up the nearest tree, only for it to turn out to be just the wind, what happens?  You feel dumb for a few minutes.

If you think "Meh just the wind" and then a tiger jumps out and attacks you when your back is turned, what happens?  Congratulations, You're dead.

If you can't tell the difference it's perfectly reasonable to err to the side of caution.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 09, 2017, 05:55:43 pm
Are people still arguing for the merits of "ironic" racism? FFS!

I guess you're not a Dave Chappelle fan, then.

Well Dave Chappelle isn't, he quit the show because he thought it had gone too far and that white people were laughing at it for the wrong reasons. 

As far as the whole "Are they trolls or real Nazis":

You are walking in the wilderness and the grass starts moving.  If you think "Oh shit a Tiger!" and run up the nearest tree, only for it to turn out to be just the wind, what happens?  You feel dumb for a few minutes.

If you think "Meh just the wind" and then a tiger jumps out and attacks you when your back is turned, what happens?  Congratulations, You're dead.

If you can't tell the difference it's perfectly reasonable to err to the side of caution.

And what happens if we don't err on the side of caution in this scenario?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Svata on December 09, 2017, 06:01:35 pm
You normalize and tacitly encourage and accept racism and/or naizism, and give credibility to the un-creditable "just joking" defense, depending which you were talking about.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 14, 2017, 10:36:24 pm
You normalize and tacitly encourage and accept racism and/or naizism, and give credibility to the un-creditable "just joking" defense, depending which you were talking about.

Normalizing racism? It's a little late to be concerned about that. Besides, I fail to see how a five word sentence is going to turn people into Nazis.

Before I continue, I'd like to ask something. Do you think "it's okay to be white" is an inherently racist statement, or is the campaign forever tainted by the racism associated with it? Or do you think something else? I'd like to figure out where this board stands so I don't make wrong assumptions about your opinions.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 15, 2017, 01:04:58 am
It's for that same reason "Police lives matter" is racist.  Nobody ever said it isn't okay to be white.  The purpose of the campaign is to distract from actual problems by setting up a false equivalency as an excuse to start arguments and get angry.

Also I've got a question for you as well: If someone is claiming to be a Nazi online, but could just be either real or a troll, do you think assuming real is a bad thing, and if so why?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 15, 2017, 01:30:58 am
It's for that same reason "Police lives matter" is racist.  Nobody ever said it isn't okay to be white.  The purpose of the campaign is to distract from actual problems by setting up a false equivalency as an excuse to start arguments and get angry.

Also I've got a question for you as well: If someone is claiming to be a Nazi online, but could just be either real or a troll, do you think assuming real is a bad thing, and if so why?

Um, about that...

http://affinitymagazine.us/2017/08/01/do-white-men-really-deserve-to-vote/ (http://affinitymagazine.us/2017/08/01/do-white-men-really-deserve-to-vote/)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/opinion/sunday/villifying-white-men.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/opinion/sunday/villifying-white-men.html)

https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/ (https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/)

I have more if you'd like to see them. Salon alone has so many articles bashing white people, you'd think they were run by the Nation of Islam.

As for your question, it depends. If somebody calls themselves a Nazi on a website that links to their real identity, like Facebook or Twitter, then I'd say they probably are one. However, on an imageboard known for being a troll magnet, I prefer not to make assumptions. I don't think there's any real harm in assuming sincerity, but what is there to be gained from doing so?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 15, 2017, 01:40:39 am
Why shouldn't I assume the articles you posted weren't written by Trolls?  I couldn't read the NYtimes one because paywall, but the first one came across to me a potentially something meant as a joke, and the last one is so absurdly over the top that part of me is thinking it can't be serious.  I know there are total assholes on the far left parts of Tumblr and twitter (ie that steven universe fanart debacle) but "I want to be a victim of genocide"?  Really? 

But I'm sure you think I should assume they are serious.  That I should assume the Affinity writer genuinely wants to ban white men from voting and thought catalog girl really wants to be murdered.  So why?  Why should I assume they are serious but the guy claiming to be a nazi isn't?  What's the difference?

After all there have been examples of trolls posing as people on the far left too

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/06/15/endfathersday-trolls-being-trolls-or-black-propaganda-designed-to-tear-apart-feminism/
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 15, 2017, 02:14:02 am
I'm going to go with rationalwiki's article on the subject.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Eiki-mun on December 15, 2017, 03:41:57 am
I couldn't read the NYtimes one because paywall,

Allow me to help you with that, as an NYT subscriber.

https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM (https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM)

The link is a transcript of the article, set to expire in one week and unlisted, to ensure that I don't hurt the newspaper's income in any way.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 15, 2017, 04:48:42 am
Allow me to help you with that, as an NYT subscriber.

https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM (https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM)

The link is a transcript of the article, set to expire in one week and unlisted, to ensure that I don't hurt the newspaper's income in any way.

Oh my fucking non-existent god most of that article is so awful it hurts. People are supposed to have sympathy for Murdoch for him losing one of his mansions in the California fires or treat McCain's offensive politics with silk gloves? Hate of whiteness "as a system" is implied to be offensive and racist? (The concept and system of "whiteness" is the base for separating races and modern racism, it is not referring to the white people as a race.)

https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/ (https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/)

Really? I hope that this is one of those moments where you didn't read your own links. "Emily Goldstein" calling for white genocide? The troll is so obvious that one of the first Google results for the name is an anti-semitic blog calling them out for doing harm to anti-semitic conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 15, 2017, 04:51:22 am
A lot of this seems like nutpicking (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nutpicking), just because some of the most extreme outliers of people who talk about Black Pride, like the ones mentioned in the NYT piece, are raving loonies who call whites abominations doesn't discredit the idea of Black Pride per se-nor does it alter the fact that in the "anglosphere", whites are socially and economically on top and generally know who their ancestors were so don't have to fall back on skin color.

Way back in the day Run DMC used to rap about being proud to be black, if they thought white people were abominations what the hell were they doing performing with Aerosmith?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 15, 2017, 10:26:12 am
Allow me to help you with that, as an NYT subscriber.

https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM (https://pastebin.com/WAC3UAXM)

The link is a transcript of the article, set to expire in one week and unlisted, to ensure that I don't hurt the newspaper's income in any way.

Oh my fucking non-existent god most of that article is so awful it hurts. People are supposed to have sympathy for Murdoch for him losing one of his mansions in the California fires or treat McCain's offensive politics with silk gloves? Hate of whiteness "as a system" is implied to be offensive and racist? (The concept and system of "whiteness" is the base for separating races and modern racism, it is not referring to the white people as a race.)

If it's not referring to white people as a race, then why use the term "whiteness?" I'm sure there are plenty of terms they could've used that aren't as loaded. Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but surely they could've called it something like "root racism." Could you imagine if they called it "Jewishness?"

And I love how you singled out the most controversial examples cited and wrote off the entire article because of them. Tell me, why didn't you mention the "Your DNA is an Abomination" article? It's only the example that starts the article.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/ (https://thoughtcatalog.com/emily-goldstein/2015/05/get-rid-of-white-people/)

Really? I hope that this is one of those moments where you didn't read your own links. "Emily Goldstein" calling for white genocide? The troll is so obvious that one of the first Google results for the name is an anti-semitic blog calling them out for doing harm to anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

I was hoping somebody would catch that. Thank you for pointing out that "assume they're being serious" isn't always the best course of action.

A lot of this seems like nutpicking (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nutpicking), just because some of the most extreme outliers of people who talk about Black Pride, like the ones mentioned in the NYT piece, are raving loonies who call whites abominations doesn't discredit the idea of Black Pride per se-nor does it alter the fact that in the "anglosphere", whites are socially and economically on top and generally know who their ancestors were so don't have to fall back on skin color.

Way back in the day Run DMC used to rap about being proud to be black, if they thought white people were abominations what the hell were they doing performing with Aerosmith?

Who said anything about black pride? I'm talking about anti-white racism. And yes, it's generally white people who make up the social and economic elite in the Anglosphere, but that doesn't mean we should assume all white people have it easy. Rural people are more likely to be white, and the current economic problems hit them especially hard.

And where were your complaints about nutpicking when Askold posted the racist responses to the post that began the campaign?

But I'm sure you think I should assume they are serious.  That I should assume the Affinity writer genuinely wants to ban white men from voting and thought catalog girl really wants to be murdered.  So why?  Why should I assume they are serious but the guy claiming to be a nazi isn't?  What's the difference?

Who said anything about assuming the self-proclaimed white supremacist is a troll? I merely said that on a website where no accounts exist and trolls make up a lot of the userbase, there's always the possibility that they're just being ironic. And yes, it is possible that the Affinity article was intended as satire. But hey, I'm not the one who said we should assume every rustle in the grass is a tiger, just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 15, 2017, 11:16:36 am
You sited these articles as examples in response to the claim that "Nobody says it's not okay to be white".  If you don't think they should be assumed to be dead serious, then my original point still stands. 

If you have reason to believe the rustle in the grass is just the wind, then it's fine to assume so.  It's if you can't tell the difference, and there are plenty of people on 4chan who are in fact actual Nazis.  And the "Ironic" racism creates an environment that lets them flourish. 
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 15, 2017, 12:04:35 pm
You sited these articles as examples in response to the claim that "Nobody says it's not okay to be white".  If you don't think they should be assumed to be dead serious, then my original point still stands.

If you have reason to believe the rustle in the grass is just the wind, then it's fine to assume so.  It's if you can't tell the difference, and there are plenty of people on 4chan who are in fact actual Nazis.  And the "Ironic" racism creates an environment that lets them flourish.

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical

Pick one.

And if you're concerned about racism flourishing, then I'd say some posts on 4chan should be the least of your worries. Tell me, do you agree with the notion that Islamophobia pushes Muslims into the arms of the jihadis?

Oh, and if you think ironic racism on /pol/ helps real Nazis, then wouldn't the same be true regarding anti-white racists if these articles are satirical? Don't blame me, I'm only playing by your own rules.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 15, 2017, 01:02:31 pm
If it's not referring to white people as a race, then why use the term "whiteness?" I'm sure there are plenty of terms they could've used that aren't as loaded. Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but surely they could've called it something like "root racism." Could you imagine if they called it "Jewishness?"

Because the concept of whiteness is in the center of the system that created the modern social concept of race and the racial discrimination? Equating the terms "whiteness" and "Jewishness" makes it clear you are too ignorant or stupid to understand the nuances of historical context when it comes to meanings behind words and the messages they convey.

Quote
And I love how you singled out the most controversial examples cited and wrote off the entire article because of them. Tell me, why didn't you mention the "Your DNA is an Abomination" article? It's only the example that starts the article.

Because even the linked article that criticizes it from a tactical point of view admits that it was a deliberate provocation and the minority students used it to call attention to the racial slurs they encounter all the time. I'm sure you are furious that white people aren't able to use this kind of provocation and think it's racist against us. Bo-fucking-hoo.

P.S. If it was someone else I might actually bother to have a proper discussion or debate about the nuances involved here. The only reason I made these posts is that I've recently had a couple of discussions about these issues and even this superficial commentary allowed me to get rid of some things that stuck in my mind to bother me.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 15, 2017, 04:07:57 pm

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical

Pick one.
Herein Lana again places the burden of disingenous fuckery by /pol and other assorted dolt-right anynymous channer snotgoblins on their readers, not the fuckers who penned the fuckery.

Were the articles OR the pol posts satirical? Even if they were it wouldn't disqualify either from encouraging someone who actually believes that shit.

I could try to explain to you the difference between punching up and down but the concepts of intersecting advantages and disadvantages of race, class and opportunity seem to baffle you and it'd take all night!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 15, 2017, 04:33:58 pm
>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical

Pick one.

Since it went completely over your head, the point I was making is that by the same logic you use to say that the Nazi's on pol are probably just being ironic, I can also say these articles are too.  You're only applying "It's just ironic racism" to your own side.

Quote
And if you're concerned about racism flourishing, then I'd say some posts on 4chan should be the least of your worries. Tell me, do you agree with the notion that Islamophobia pushes Muslims into the arms of the jihadis?

To an extent it can be a factor, although it takes way more then just someone being a dick on the internet.  You've got economic inequalities, cultural isolation, politicians fear-mongering about you and advocating bigoted policies.  And even with all that the number of Muslims in the west who do join jihadi groups in the west is tiny.  So no I don't think this is going to turn white dudes into Nazis if that's what you are getting at.

Quote
Oh, and if you think ironic racism on /pol/ helps real Nazis, then wouldn't the same be true regarding anti-white racists if these articles are satirical? Don't blame me, I'm only playing by your own rules.

To be honest yes.  I do think it is a bad thing for left wingers to embrace this kind of violent rhetoric and that it pulls the overton window out of where it should be.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 15, 2017, 07:06:50 pm
Kind of surprised she didn't rage against the "bias" of the rationalwiki article detailing exactly what Its Okay to be White really is.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 15, 2017, 11:52:38 pm

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical

Pick one.
Herein Lana again places the burden of disingenous fuckery by /pol and other assorted dolt-right anynymous channer snotgoblins on their readers, not the fuckers who penned the fuckery.

Were the articles OR the pol posts satirical? Even if they were it wouldn't disqualify either from encouraging someone who actually believes that shit.

Well, at least you're consistent.

I could try to explain to you the difference between punching up and down but the concepts of intersecting advantages and disaadvantages of race, class and opportunity seem to baffle you and it'd take all night!

We need to dispense with this idea that attacking white people is automatically "punching up." Most white people are not corporate bigshots or old money WASPs. The sooner we realize that class carries far more advantages than race, the better it'll be for everyone.

>We should assume these imageboard posts are 100% sincere
>Let's not jump to conclusions about these articles, they might be satirical

Pick one.

Since it went completely over your head, the point I was making is that by the same logic you use to say that the Nazi's on pol are probably just being ironic, I can also say these articles are too.  You're only applying "It's just ironic racism" to your own side.

No, I'm saying it might be ironic racism.

You know what, let's stop trying to prove each other hypocrites. If we continue down that route, it'll lead to nothing but an argument of contradictions. "You're a hypocrite!" "No, you're a hypocrite!" "Nuh uh, you're the hypocrite!"

Quote
And if you're concerned about racism flourishing, then I'd say some posts on 4chan should be the least of your worries. Tell me, do you agree with the notion that Islamophobia pushes Muslims into the arms of the jihadis?

To an extent it can be a factor, although it takes way more then just someone being a dick on the internet.  You've got economic inequalities, cultural isolation, politicians fear-mongering about you and advocating bigoted policies.  And even with all that the number of Muslims in the west who do join jihadi groups in the west is tiny.  So no I don't think this is going to turn white dudes into Nazis if that's what you are getting at.

I agree, it's going to take more than just mean words on the Internet to turn white people to Nazism. Unfortunately, a lot of working-class white Americans are also suffering from many of the problems you cite as happening to Western Muslims. And I'm very afraid of what might happen if they get radicalized in similar proportions. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I think it's something worth being concerned about.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 16, 2017, 12:26:37 am
Being concerned about the rise of nazi's and alt-rightists is certainly valid.  But some dumb people on the far left saying dumb things isn't the main cause, or even an important secondary one.  How much discrimination do white dudes actually face in their day to day lives?  As a white dude I can say very little.

The rise of Alt-Nazi's I'd argue has more to do with the shift in the overton window.  White guys getting their news from Fox and Breitbart telling them that the scary foreigners are coming to get them and the mean liberals are pure evil baby killers, and hanging out online in places like 4chan where it becomes okay to scream "GASTHEKIKES" and pull that into something socially acceptable.  We get our morality from what we see being rewarded and punished in the society around us, and when that is full of people screaming "Being white and christian makes you better then others, and the different are out to get you." we internalize that.  Some random blogger is not responsible for the rise of the far right, it's Rupert Murdoch and Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos.  And when the likes of you start whining  "It's just Trolls being trolls" or "But muh Free Speech" when bigoted statements are criticized is part of the problem.  It being acceptable to be a bigoted asshole results in people being bigoted assholes.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 16, 2017, 04:12:31 am

We need to dispense with this idea that attacking white people is automatically "punching up." Most white people are not corporate bigshots or old money WASPs. The sooner we realize that class carries far more advantages than race, the better it'll be for everyone.

Poor white people exist? Well fuck me, I thought that fella with the neck prison tatts in the old tracksuit who asked me for a cigarette today was an old Etonian! I stand corrected.

Lana, you do know that neither advantage or disadvantage are points based systems. Yeah poverty is bad but it's not the same as, for example being trans, even though both confer disadvantages and that you can have two types of disadvantage at once. They don't all form a scorecard to how hard done by you are. Being poor and white no more makes your problems the same as those suffered uniquely by black people any more than being disabled makes your problems the same as folks who have English as a second language!

Yes, being white doesn't guarantee life will be a cakewalk, neither does being male, being straight, able bodied, cis, having decent parents etc, etc but whites as a group do better than non-whites in Europe and most of the places Europeans settled from Brazil to New Zealand to the United States because that's the legacy of colonialism, missionary fervor and slavery. That's a fact.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: davedan on December 16, 2017, 08:50:00 pm
You know if there was any lingering doubt, this thread has squashed it.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 17, 2017, 02:28:14 am
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 17, 2017, 10:49:54 am
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.

And Osama bin Laden was concerned about global warming. Your point?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Svata on December 17, 2017, 11:16:14 am
Be that as it may, Osama didn't proclaim its usefulness in advancing his agenda. That's where the difference comes in. Hitler ate sugar, and that doesn't make sugar-eaters Nazis. But. Hitler didn't (AFAIK) use sugar to promote Nazism. They're using this to promote Nazism. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all of the people who use this slogan are Nazis, but it's a helluva data point in that direction.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 17, 2017, 07:00:27 pm
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/It%27s_Okay_To_Be_White

Just gonna leave this here.

Andrew Anglin - aka a giant fucking Nazi - defended the project and proclaimed its usefulness in advancing his agenda. So, as I said, this article says all you need to know about this project by the asshole of the internet.

And Osama bin Laden was concerned about global warming. Your point?

Do you have anything to say other than whataboutism? What about Osama Bin Laden being concerned about global warming? Why does that matter right now?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 17, 2017, 08:53:42 pm
This, of course has been a pattern amongst alt-righters for a while Start an online campaign to promote something not Nazi sounding, which is of course to promote Nazi fuckery in the hopes of picking up useful idiots to enable it's spread.

Some fall flat like 'End Father's Day', others pick up sincere dummies in a whirlwind of confusion and trollery faster than you can say "it's about ethics in gaming journalism."
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 17, 2017, 11:39:16 pm
Be that as it may, Osama didn't proclaim its usefulness in advancing his agenda. That's where the difference comes in. Hitler ate sugar, and that doesn't make sugar-eaters Nazis. But. Hitler didn't (AFAIK) use sugar to promote Nazism. They're using this to promote Nazism. Which doesn't necessarily mean that all of the people who use this slogan are Nazis, but it's a helluva data point in that direction.

Oh. Sorry about missing the point. Guess I'm not as innocent of certain biases as I thought.

Being concerned about the rise of nazi's and alt-rightists is certainly valid.  But some dumb people on the far left saying dumb things isn't the main cause, or even an important secondary one.  How much discrimination do white dudes actually face in their day to day lives?  As a white dude I can say very little.

The rise of Alt-Nazi's I'd argue has more to do with the shift in the overton window.  White guys getting their news from Fox and Breitbart telling them that the scary foreigners are coming to get them and the mean liberals are pure evil baby killers, and hanging out online in places like 4chan where it becomes okay to scream "GASTHEKIKES" and pull that into something socially acceptable.  We get our morality from what we see being rewarded and punished in the society around us, and when that is full of people screaming "Being white and christian makes you better then others, and the different are out to get you." we internalize that.  Some random blogger is not responsible for the rise of the far right, it's Rupert Murdoch and Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos.  And when the likes of you start whining  "It's just Trolls being trolls" or "But muh Free Speech" when bigoted statements are criticized is part of the problem.  It being acceptable to be a bigoted asshole results in people being bigoted assholes.

I don't think you're wrong, at least in a general sense, but I also think there are some key ingredients you're missing. Why did the alt-right gain so much traction so quickly? I'd say it's partly due to a combination of anti-establishment sentiment and reactions to extremism of another form.

Let's face it: the establishment has failed countless people. Economic inequality is a growing problem all over the West. Rural America is dying, both economically and literally. Grooming gangs are plaguing British cities. It's no wonder left-wingers and right-wingers alike are turning to populists like Trump and Corbyn.

As for the extremism, I'm starting to think a principle similar to Newton's third law applies in politics. I hate to Godwin, but I think the rise of Nazism in Germany can be taken as a case study. Its growth was, in part, a reaction to violent left-wing extremism. While that certainly wasn't the only factor, it was a big one. Similarly, I think the meteoric rise of the alt-right can be blamed at least partly on another form of extremist left-wing politics. I'm talking about SJWism.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the alt-right started gaining in strength as SJWs became more visible. And don't tell me they're just idiots on social media, the progressive stack alone proves that isn't true. But why did the SJWs get so powerful? Well, if your theory is correct, I'd say they also grew in number and influence because of the media. Take a look at these 100% real headlines:

Let's hope the Boston Marathon bomber is a white American (https://www.salon.com/2013/04/16/lets_hope_the_boston_marathon_bomber_is_a_white_american/)

White men must be stopped: The very future of mankind depends on it (https://www.salon.com/2015/12/22/white_men_must_be_stopped_the_very_future_of_the_planet_depends_on_it_partner/)

White guys are killing us: Toxic, cowardly masculinity, our unhealable national illness (https://www.salon.com/2015/12/16/white_guys_are_killing_us_toxic_cowardly_masculinity_our_unhealable_national_illness/)

White guy killer syndrome: Elliot Rodger’s deadly, privileged rage (https://www.salon.com/2014/05/27/white_guy_killer_syndrome_elliot_rodgers_deadly_privileged_rage/)

(On a side note, all of these articles were published in Salon. When I said it might as well be run by the NoI, that wasn't much of an exaggeration.)

By your logic, left-wingers reading articles like these are going to consider it acceptable to hate white people, especially if they happen to be male.

In other words, I think the rise of the alt-right was partly a backlash against Social Justice Warriors. And unfortunately, some of the left seems to think escalation is the best answer. So antifa started making unprovoked attacks on anybody they considered to be "Nazis."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg

Unfortunately, this led to the alt-right becoming more violent, which led to the tragedy in Charlottesville. Extremism begets extremism. Hate begets hate. Violence begets violence.

...I'm going to get some really stimulating responses to this, aren't I?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 18, 2017, 12:57:47 am
"SJWism" isn't a thing. "SJW" just means "progressive I find irritating." in it's modern useage.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 18, 2017, 01:22:05 am
That you are.

The alt-right was a doomed idea from the start - formed by Nazis and Neo-Nazis chomping at the bit to indulge every bit of rage and hate in their hearts...to, I'll borrow their phrase, chimp out. They were waiting, eagerly, to find a cause innocuously named enough to escape the stigma of what they were, and then be able to engage in violence. That is all they ever were, all they ever will be, and why nothing good will ever emerge from that festooning overgrown privy.

I am a white guy.

I'm not threatened in the least or intimidated by a bunch of rag articles written by people at Salon.

They do produce rage and fear in the hearts and minds of those too utterly feeble-minded to imagine a world that isn't what they grew up with. These articles you produced only incite fear in the hearts and minds of feeble-minded men who are by their words, nomenclature and actions named "louts".

And I have NO sympathy whatsoever from brawling Trump Supporters or those who get into action against Anti-Fa - they elected this rampaging moron, and so I will not feel a shred of sympathy for them at all.

As for the death of Rural America, I can't really say I care. I have family out there - still can't say I care.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 18, 2017, 02:26:01 am
I'm not threatened in the least or intimidated by a bunch of rag articles written by people at Salon.

I suggest you don't give even this much of implied credit to Anal Paragon's stance by calling them "rag articles". In the context of the rest of the articles none of those headlines are offensive. Provocative, definitely. Yes, if a white writer wrote the same headlines about black people it would be a racist act even if the intended message wasn't. Privilege has its consequences and communication doesn't happen in a void where words and people have no social and historical context that influence the actual message sent.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Svata on December 18, 2017, 02:45:51 am
You... You mean that the context for things can be as important to the meaning as what is actually said? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 18, 2017, 06:23:32 pm
That you are.

The alt-right was a doomed idea from the start - formed by Nazis and Neo-Nazis chomping at the bit to indulge every bit of rage and hate in their hearts...to, I'll borrow their phrase, chimp out. They were waiting, eagerly, to find a cause innocuously named enough to escape the stigma of what they were, and then be able to engage in violence. That is all they ever were, all they ever will be, and why nothing good will ever emerge from that festooning overgrown privy.

No argument here. They're racist bastards, no matter how they try to dress it up.

I am a white guy.

I'm not threatened in the least or intimidated by a bunch of rag articles written by people at Salon.

They do produce rage and fear in the hearts and minds of those too utterly feeble-minded to imagine a world that isn't what they grew up with. These articles you produced only incite fear in the hearts and minds of feeble-minded men who are by their words, nomenclature and actions named "louts".

I'd ask you to have a little empathy, but since you're literally incapable of that, I'm just going to say you sound like you're about to pitch eugenics.

And I have NO sympathy whatsoever from brawling Trump Supporters or those who get into action against Anti-Fa - they elected this rampaging moron, and so I will not feel a shred of sympathy for them at all.

As for the death of Rural America, I can't really say I care. I have family out there - still can't say I care.

Of course not. You're a self-admitted sociopath.

I suggest you don't give even this much of implied credit to Anal Paragon's stance by calling them "rag articles". In the context of the rest of the articles none of those headlines are offensive. Provocative, definitely. Yes, if a white writer wrote the same headlines about black people it would be a racist act even if the intended message wasn't. Privilege has its consequences and communication doesn't happen in a void where words and people have no social and historical context that influence the actual message sent.

Do you think "privilege" automatically negates racism? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like that's what you're implying. If I'm misunderstanding you, then I apologize in advance.

And no, it wasn't just the headlines that were offensive. Let's take a look at some choice quotes.

Quote
The future of life on the planet depends on bringing the 500-year rampage of the white man to a halt. For five centuries his ever more destructive weaponry has become far too common. His widespread and better systems of exploiting other humans and nature dominate the globe.

Collectively holding white men responsible for countless atrocities that have happened over the course of 500 years. If collectively holding Jews responsible for the death of Jesus is anti-Semitic, then isn't this racist?

Quote
By way of example, a recurring concern of those responding to the Times’ Woodrow Wilson op-ed was, “Where will it all end? Will we have to destroy Mount Rushmore?” some asked. Maybe we should. Not just because it honors slave owners Jefferson and Washington, Mount Rushmore is also a powerful symbol of brutality and racism toward indigenous people.

Not only does he dismiss Washington and Jefferson as mere "slave owners," but he outright says that maybe Mount Rushmore should be destroyed.

I could go on, but I'd like to think you'll get the point.

But if you want more than just articles, the BBC had "ethnic-only" training placements last year (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/03/bbc-criticised-by-mps-and-job-applicants-over-training-placement/). Before you ask, no, the rejected applicants were not actors seeking parts intended for characters of color. They were seeking script writing roles.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 19, 2017, 02:57:57 am
The beeb has a diversity policy? Someone page Damore so he can dredge up a Wikipedia article saying it's a very no good thing!

Seriously? Positive discrimination at the BBC bothers you? Why? Are there not enough old white guys in the British Broadcasting Service for you?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 19, 2017, 03:12:28 am
Why do you care so much what he says about Washington and Jefferson? They are not alive to take insult from words - him saying something about them does nothing. That person can say "we need to stop the white man!" all he wants, but the simple fact is he is in no way shape or form able to act on that, and the only people who would take issue or threat with such a statement from a position of abject weakness are imbeciles no rational man need concern themselves with.

And so...yeah, I literally have no empathy, and your whinging about how deficient that makes me is only really amusing.

I have my fantasies about a world without incompetence, but it is not something that is going to happen, nor would it meet with anything resembling applause or accolade, so I assign that to the dustbin and simply keep it to myself.

Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 19, 2017, 08:35:23 am
Just for the other forum members' and lurkers' benefit I'll expand on my point:

We white people (in the West) have the privilege of being the non-racialized normal and the concept of whiteness is what creates the otherness of the racial minorities. The society sees us as individuals first instead of representatives of our racial group. That means we do not face racial stereotyping and thus you are more free to use more provocative language about us without worrying that you are strengthening such stereotypes.

Anyone who actually reads the Salon articles instead of just taking a look at the headlines should be able to understand that they have fuck all to do with actual racism (other than criticizing it). Those articles are for example discussing how the white privilege can have violent expressions or use racialized language in the context of white people to provoke the reader to realize how misleading it is and contrast it to how such language is casually used about the minorities. The only way anyone can assume Salon is promoting offensive stereotypes about white people is if you look at each sentence in a complete contextual void and don't even try to understand the actual message. That, or you have the presumption that "SJWs" who are racist against whites have captured or are capturing the power in our society.

As far as those tiny fringe elements go who really do hold offensive opinions about white people niam has the right idea. Unlike white supremacists they have no structural power so I'm not going to waste my energy on them.

If anyone else is interested in discussing this part any further I'll try to find the energy to do so. It might be an fruitful and interesting discussion or debate with someone who has actual intellectual honesty. I've already spent too much energy on an alt-right troll whom I've decided to ignore long time ago.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: davedan on December 19, 2017, 04:22:49 pm
So Lana has just admitted that she is Paragon, hasn't she? This thread is the confession.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 19, 2017, 04:50:19 pm
The beeb has a diversity policy? Someone page Damore so he can dredge up a Wikipedia article saying it's a very no good thing!

Seriously? Positive discrimination at the BBC bothers you? Why? Are there not enough old white guys in the British Broadcasting Service for you?

Quote
Figures published this year show that 13.4 percent of the BBC’s workforce is made up of employees from Black, Asian and other ethnic minority backgrounds.

Census date from 2011 shows that 13.1 percent of British citizens come from ethnic minority backgrounds, meaning the corporation’s workforce is already proportionally reflective of the population.

You were saying?

And it bothers me because it's excluding people based entirely on their skin color. There's affirmative action, and then there's outright racist discrimination.

If anyone else is interested in discussing this part any further I'll try to find the energy to do so. It might be an fruitful and interesting discussion or debate with someone who has actual intellectual honesty. I've already spent too much energy on an alt-right troll whom I've decided to ignore long time ago.

Are you saying I'm an alt-right troll?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 19, 2017, 05:01:10 pm
So Lana has just admitted that she is Paragon, hasn't she? This thread is the confession.

Either he got careless and forgot to pay attention to his charade or he got bored of it. I doubt it is the latter since he seems to enjoy feigning innocence too much. See the previous post for another example.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on December 19, 2017, 05:05:59 pm
The beeb has a diversity policy? Someone page Damore so he can dredge up a Wikipedia article saying it's a very no good thing!

Seriously? Positive discrimination at the BBC bothers you? Why? Are there not enough old white guys in the British Broadcasting Service for you?

Quote
Figures published this year show that 13.4 percent of the BBC’s workforce is made up of employees from Black, Asian and other ethnic minority backgrounds.

Census date from 2011 shows that 13.1 percent of British citizens come from ethnic minority backgrounds, meaning the corporation’s workforce is already proportionally reflective of the population.

You were saying?

And it bothers me because it's excluding people based entirely on their skin color. There's affirmative action, and then there's outright racist discrimination.

If anyone else is interested in discussing this part any further I'll try to find the energy to do so. It might be an fruitful and interesting discussion or debate with someone who has actual intellectual honesty. I've already spent too much energy on an alt-right troll whom I've decided to ignore long time ago.

Are you saying I'm an alt-right troll?

Are you so incompetent you can't read? Work that one out for yourself!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 19, 2017, 07:51:08 pm
So Lana has just admitted that she is Paragon, hasn't she? This thread is the confession.

Either he got careless and forgot to pay attention to his charade or he got bored of it. I doubt it is the latter since he seems to enjoy feigning innocence too much. See the previous post for another example.

Here's my response: put up or shut up. If there were any evidence other than your personal opinion, I'd have been banned long ago.

By the way, it's very rude to just ignore somebody when you ask them a question. Not as rude as making accusations you can't back up, but rude nonetheless.

The beeb has a diversity policy? Someone page Damore so he can dredge up a Wikipedia article saying it's a very no good thing!

Seriously? Positive discrimination at the BBC bothers you? Why? Are there not enough old white guys in the British Broadcasting Service for you?

Quote
Figures published this year show that 13.4 percent of the BBC’s workforce is made up of employees from Black, Asian and other ethnic minority backgrounds.

Census date from 2011 shows that 13.1 percent of British citizens come from ethnic minority backgrounds, meaning the corporation’s workforce is already proportionally reflective of the population.

You were saying?

And it bothers me because it's excluding people based entirely on their skin color. There's affirmative action, and then there's outright racist discrimination.

If anyone else is interested in discussing this part any further I'll try to find the energy to do so. It might be an fruitful and interesting discussion or debate with someone who has actual intellectual honesty. I've already spent too much energy on an alt-right troll whom I've decided to ignore long time ago.

Are you saying I'm an alt-right troll?

Are you so incompetent you can't read? Work that one out for yourself!

Well, so many people on this board keep calling me a cretin, I figured I should make sure I don't misunderstand.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: davedan on December 19, 2017, 09:00:36 pm
Experience with your previous incarnations actually points against a quick banning. Despite people noticing the textual similarities between Dynamic Dragon and Ultimate Paragon for extended periods such that you were often called Dynamic Paragon it took the whole Leonardo Fernando kerfuffle before anyone really could be arsed with bannings.

So that argument is without historical support. The absence of banning only really is evidence that you have to work overtime to get banned.

While there were some theories that the knight of the raging boner was a gestalt entity, it is highly unlikely that they would be able to have a collective posting style so similar and annoying.

I wonder what your possible motivation could be to keep the charade up. I guess we should all be flatttered.

Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 19, 2017, 09:28:11 pm
Yeah, because proportion of the workforce translates to proportional represtation in creative roles..

Becauase all broadcasting roles are equal, right?

I'd rather believe you're an alt right troll the alternative. The alternative scenario, that you're here to advocate sincerely for us straight, cracker fellas would almost erase those historical priviliges because you suck so badly at it!

Can we have someone else represent for us straight honky dudes? Because Paragon was actually better at it than the current bearer of the White Man's Burden around here!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on December 20, 2017, 01:21:45 am
Experience with your previous incarnations actually points against a quick banning. Despite people noticing the textual similarities between Dynamic Dragon and Ultimate Paragon for extended periods such that you were often called Dynamic Paragon it took the whole Leonardo Fernando kerfuffle before anyone really could be arsed with bannings.

So that argument is without historical support. The absence of banning only really is evidence that you have to work overtime to get banned.

While there were some theories that the knight of the raging boner was a gestalt entity, it is highly unlikely that they would be able to have a collective posting style so similar and annoying.

I wonder what your possible motivation could be to keep the charade up. I guess we should all be flatttered.

Two questions:

1. How is my posting style "similar?" Considering your ideas on what it means to be "alt-right," I'm starting to think you're just seeing what you want to see.

2. Even if they are similar, what does that prove?

Oh, and FYI, this isn't my normal writing style. I just use it on certain forums for the sake of communicating ideas quickly.

Yeah, because proportion of the workforce translates to proportional represtation in creative roles..

Becauase all broadcasting roles are equal, right?

I'd rather believe you're an alt right troll the alternative. The alternative scenario, that you're here to advocate sincerely for us straight, cracker fellas almost would erase those historical priviges because you suck so badly at it!

Can we have someone else represent for us straight honky dudes? Because Paragon was actually better at it than the current bearer of the White Man's Burden around here!

Sir, step away from the goalpost, please.

And in any case, I don't understand why departmental representation is so important. If the BBC is like most private corporations, the HR department is probably mainly made up of women. Should it offer male-only HR jobs to close the gap?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: davedan on December 20, 2017, 01:24:06 am
What are my ideas on the 'alt-right', cracker? I can't recall having expressed any recently.

Edit:You complain that there is no evidence. My point is textual similarities are evidence. If textual similarities were not considered evidence of authorship entire bodies of scholarship would break down.

So if your posting styles are the same it is evidence that they share an author.

How many writing styles do you have?

Further edit: Maybe this is your tired writing style? How many Trans brothers do you have?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Skybison on December 20, 2017, 02:11:44 am
Do you think Lana the Ultimate Dynamic Reverse Paragon Dragon even think's he's fooling us?  Everyone, I think, at this point has made it clear we know it's him but he's still playing dumb.

Honestly Lana, if you're not Paragon why do you even want to post here?  You don't seem to be active on the mainsite (I searched to see if you'd commented there I got nothing) and mostly just fight with people who've made it clear they dislike you on topics where you obviously disagree with the rest of the board from day one.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on December 20, 2017, 02:23:07 am
And in any case, I don't understand why departmental representation is so important. If the BBC is like most private corporations...

Oh dear...

Listen yankee-doodle, outside the land of Guns, Gawd and Gorporations, government funded broadcasters are a thing! Auntie (https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-23572,00.html) has never, ever been a "private corporation."

Anyway, whose goalposts are we talking about? Is this a diversity policy for scriptwriters or for all and any arms of the British government funded British Broadcasting Service inclusive of janitorial and help desks?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: SCarpelan on December 20, 2017, 05:40:46 am
Do you think Lana the Ultimate Dynamic Reverse Paragon Dragon even think's he's fooling us?  Everyone, I think, at this point has made it clear we know it's him but he's still playing dumb

1) He is trying to troll and thinks unrealistic demands of proof get under people's nerves

and/or

2) He really thinks he is being smart and fooling some people and gets his kicks from a delusion of being smarter than others.
edit: 2.1) He thinks this as some kind of game where as long as we don't have the level of proof he demands he is winning and is smarter than us.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on January 08, 2018, 06:18:19 pm
What are my ideas on the 'alt-right', cracker? I can't recall having expressed any recently.

Edit:You complain that there is no evidence. My point is textual similarities are evidence. If textual similarities were not considered evidence of authorship entire bodies of scholarship would break down.

So if your posting styles are the same it is evidence that they share an author.

How many writing styles do you have?

Further edit: Maybe this is your tired writing style? How many Trans brothers do you have?

I wasn't talking about you, specifically, but this board in general. Or that's what it seems like to me. Like, I got called "alt-right" for being concerned about the Trump Twitter takedown. If that makes me alt-right, is the same true for Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-whats-terrifying-about-the-twitter-employee-who-temporarily-disabled-trumps-account-2017-11)?

In all fairness, you haven't been so bad about this, at least as far as I remember. No, my problems with you are of a different nature; namely, your insistence that I'm a sockpuppet, based on evidence that's flimsy at best. Yes, textual similarities can be evidence. But as far as I know, you are not a stylometrist (is that the right word?), so I am going to need more than your opinion. Forensic psychology may be an established discipline, but that doesn't mean we should accept the testimony of armchair psychologists on the internet in a court of law. Even if you were, I don't think I can trust you to be unbiased.

And in any case, I don't understand why departmental representation is so important. If the BBC is like most private corporations...

Oh dear...

Listen yankee-doodle, outside the land of Guns, Gawd and Gorporations, government funded broadcasters are a thing! Auntie (https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-23572,00.html) has never, ever been a "private corporation."

Anyway, whose goalposts are we talking about? Is this a diversity policy for scriptwriters or for all and any arms of the British government funded British Broadcasting Service inclusive of janitorial and help desks?

I know you're going through a difficult time right now, so I'm going to try to be gentle.

Thank you, but you don't have to correct me on the BBC. I know the Beeb isn't a private company, I was merely saying that if it's run like most private companies, it probably has an HR department that is largely female. I never meant to imply the BBC wasn't publicly owned.

And as for why I said you were moving the goalposts, it's because earlier, you said this:

The beeb has a diversity policy? Someone page Damore so he can dredge up a Wikipedia article saying it's a very no good thing!

Seriously? Positive discrimination at the BBC bothers you? Why? Are there not enough old white guys in the British Broadcasting Service for you?


From the bolded text, I assumed you were talking about the Beeb in general, not just scriptwriters. If you weren't trying to say that, I'm sorry for getting you wrong.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: The_Queen on January 08, 2018, 09:45:56 pm
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?

Or trolls pretending to be white supremacists. With 4Chan, it's never easy to tell.

But that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that they wanted people to flip out, and that's exactly what happened. Even worse, some of these people knew what the anons were planning, and still took the bait.

If you're pretending to be a white supremacist to "troll," then you're a white supremacist. Some things aren't funny.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on January 08, 2018, 09:53:29 pm
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?

Or trolls pretending to be white supremacists. With 4Chan, it's never easy to tell.

But that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that they wanted people to flip out, and that's exactly what happened. Even worse, some of these people knew what the anons were planning, and still took the bait.

If you're pretending to be a white supremacist to "troll," then you're a white supremacist. Some things aren't funny.

Then I suppose Jonathan Swift was a cannibal.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 08, 2018, 10:10:33 pm
"A Modest Proposal" was clearly ribbing the privileged, racist chan-wankers on the other hand...

And Lana a corporation, government or otherwise, presumably makes policy based on areas of percieved need - which might be one department or it might be the whole thing. That is entirely context dependent. Why is this so hard for you to get your head around it?
Quote
I know you're going through a difficult time
Yeah-fuck off with that condescending horseshit!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on January 08, 2018, 10:27:36 pm
"A Modest Proposal" was clearly ribbing the privileged, racist chan-wankers on the other hand...

And Lana a corporation, government or otherwise, presumably makes policy based on areas of percieved need - which might be one department or it might be the whole thing. That is entirely context dependent. Why is this so hard for you to get your head around it?

What difference does that make?

And I understand that corporations make policies based on perceived need. What I don't understand is why that justifies outright racial discrimination. We're not even talking about AA, we're talking about "no crackers need apply."
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: The_Queen on January 09, 2018, 12:05:28 am
Except that this was a campaign by white supremacists so why is it wrong to freak out over it?

Or trolls pretending to be white supremacists. With 4Chan, it's never easy to tell.

But that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that they wanted people to flip out, and that's exactly what happened. Even worse, some of these people knew what the anons were planning, and still took the bait.

If you're pretending to be a white supremacist to "troll," then you're a white supremacist. Some things aren't funny.

Then I suppose Jonathan Swift was a cannibal.

That isn't how logic works. Cannibalism is fucking hilarious. Racism isn't.

Now, go eat a dick.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Art Vandelay on January 09, 2018, 01:33:55 am
That isn't how logic works. Cannibalism is fucking hilarious. Racism isn't.

Now, go eat a dick.

(click to show/hide)
What about cannibals who refuse to eat them filthy niggers?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: niam2023 on January 09, 2018, 01:44:33 am
There is a redneck joke to be made here.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: The_Queen on January 09, 2018, 02:53:31 am
That isn't how logic works. Cannibalism is fucking hilarious. Racism isn't.

Now, go eat a dick.

(click to show/hide)
What about cannibals who refuse to eat them filthy niggers?

I laughed at the devouring of people, not the abhorrent views of the person eating. To create a metaphor, I laugh at Trump all the time; for his stable genius, though, rather than his know-nothing racism.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on January 09, 2018, 03:54:51 am
The thing is that, unlike "cultural Marxism" which is a made up boogeyman "cryptofascism" is actually a real phenomenon.

There are Neo-Nazis and white supremacists who use internet memes and "just joking man" excuse to spread their message. Folks like Richard Spencer have openly said that they are trying to recruit young men by making a "totally not Neo-Nazies" movement out of the Alt-Right and using things like the "Pepe" meme to do so.

By using those same memes and "just joking when I say we should kill all degenerates lol why so serius?" defense the 4Chan trolls are helping Neo-Nazis. Because at sizeable amount of the people using those memes are real Neo-Nazis and some of the others are lured in because they find a group where they can openly be racist and not be punished for it. (Partially because some of the others think that they are just joking about it and partially because some of them really are racist.)

Meanwhile, Queens cannibalism jokes are not helping a pro-cannibalism agenda BECAUSE NO SUCH MOVEMENT REALLY EXISTS!

So... Though a 4Chan troll may have a different motive for harassing people and sending death and rape threats to minorities (mainly, he just thinks that it is fun) than the Neo-Nazis who do it as well, in the end it does not matter. They bolster the Neo-Nazis by making them seem more numerous and cause real harm by spreading hateful messages and threats.

Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: The_Queen on January 09, 2018, 04:34:53 am
The thing is that, unlike "cultural Marxism" which is a made up boogeyman "cryptofascism" is actually a real phenomenon.

There are Neo-Nazis and white supremacists who use internet memes and "just joking man" excuse to spread their message. Folks like Richard Spencer have openly said that they are trying to recruit young men by making a "totally not Neo-Nazies" movement out of the Alt-Right and using things like the "Pepe" meme to do so.

By using those same memes and "just joking when I say we should kill all degenerates lol why so serius?" defense the 4Chan trolls are helping Neo-Nazis. Because at sizeable amount of the people using those memes are real Neo-Nazis and some of the others are lured in because they find a group where they can openly be racist and not be punished for it. (Partially because some of the others think that they are just joking about it and partially because some of them really are racist.)

Meanwhile, Queens cannibalism jokes are not helping a pro-cannibalism agenda BECAUSE NO SUCH MOVEMENT REALLY EXISTS!

So... Though a 4Chan troll may have a different motive for harassing people and sending death and rape threats to minorities (mainly, he just thinks that it is fun) than the Neo-Nazis who do it as well, in the end it does not matter. They bolster the Neo-Nazis by making them seem more numerous and cause real harm by spreading hateful messages and threats.

Existentialism for the win! Which reminds me of this famous Sartre quote that made the rounds since Casino Mussolini won the election:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cx1oJ9UVQAAE6gP.jpg)

To spew shitbag racism is to be a racist shitbag. To do so "ironically" is no different as it only normalizes racist shitbags, and provides them an easy out when they are confronted. (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/23/alt-right-online-humor-as-a-weapon-facism)

Meanwhile, Queens cannibalism jokes are not helping a pro-cannibalism agenda BECAUSE NO SUCH MOVEMENT REALLY EXISTS!

Yeah, what this guy said. Don't believe anything you hear about the pro-cannibalism agenda. If you are interested in this agenda though, it may meet on the corner of 32nd and Cherry on the first of the month. The password is "sic semper tyrannus."
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on January 09, 2018, 04:39:01 am
The real atrocity here is that you didn't make a pun. "Sic temper tyrannus" maybe?

"Sic semper delicious?"
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 09, 2018, 04:51:03 am
"A Modest Proposal" was clearly ribbing the privileged, racist chan-wankers on the other hand...

And Lana a corporation, government or otherwise, presumably makes policy based on areas of percieved need - which might be one department or it might be the whole thing. That is entirely context dependent. Why is this so hard for you to get your head around it?

What difference does that make?

And I understand that corporations make policies based on perceived need. What I don't understand is why that justifies outright racial discrimination. We're not even talking about AA, we're talking about "no crackers need apply."
Well that's sort of the point, if you have a job area where your diversity policy has identified a distinct lack of non crackers and/or barriers to non crackers getting work. It might not apply to every position description in your entire organisation hence targeting it at scriptwriters for instance. If it already resembles a tin of crackers you aren't going to make it more diverse by pouring more of them in!
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Lana Reverse on January 09, 2018, 04:23:57 pm
"A Modest Proposal" was clearly ribbing the privileged, racist chan-wankers on the other hand...

And Lana a corporation, government or otherwise, presumably makes policy based on areas of percieved need - which might be one department or it might be the whole thing. That is entirely context dependent. Why is this so hard for you to get your head around it?

What difference does that make?

And I understand that corporations make policies based on perceived need. What I don't understand is why that justifies outright racial discrimination. We're not even talking about AA, we're talking about "no crackers need apply."
Well that's sort of the point, if you have a job area where your diversity policy has identified a distinct lack of non crackers and/or barriers to non crackers getting work. It might not apply to every position description in your entire organisation hence targeting it at scriptwriters for instance. If it already resembles a tin of crackers you aren't going to make it more diverse by pouring more of them in!

Alright, so you approve of excluding people based on how they were born in order to improve diversity. With that in mind, I have a hypothetical scenario. A company - let's call it X Corp - has announced that its Human Resources department is hiring. Several women come to apply for positions, only to be turned away. Why? Because X Corp wants to correct the department's gender imbalance by hiring more men. Do you think X Corp's discrimination is acceptable?

The thing is that, unlike "cultural Marxism" which is a made up boogeyman "cryptofascism" is actually a real phenomenon.

There are Neo-Nazis and white supremacists who use internet memes and "just joking man" excuse to spread their message. Folks like Richard Spencer have openly said that they are trying to recruit young men by making a "totally not Neo-Nazies" movement out of the Alt-Right and using things like the "Pepe" meme to do so.

By using those same memes and "just joking when I say we should kill all degenerates lol why so serius?" defense the 4Chan trolls are helping Neo-Nazis. Because at sizeable amount of the people using those memes are real Neo-Nazis and some of the others are lured in because they find a group where they can openly be racist and not be punished for it. (Partially because some of the others think that they are just joking about it and partially because some of them really are racist.)

Meanwhile, Queens cannibalism jokes are not helping a pro-cannibalism agenda BECAUSE NO SUCH MOVEMENT REALLY EXISTS!

So... Though a 4Chan troll may have a different motive for harassing people and sending death and rape threats to minorities (mainly, he just thinks that it is fun) than the Neo-Nazis who do it as well, in the end it does not matter. They bolster the Neo-Nazis by making them seem more numerous and cause real harm by spreading hateful messages and threats.

First off, I would like to clarify my stance. I do not think harassment is ever acceptable, no matter the motivations behind it. It doesn't matter if somebody is a white supremacist or just an edgelord, they're still hurting other people. So "jk lol" is not an acceptable defense for harassment. I hope we can at least agree on that.

Now, with that out of the way, I think you're exaggerating the threat posed by these jokes. If they had as much recruiting power as you seem to be claiming, I think the alt-right would be much larger by now.
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 10, 2018, 12:33:46 am
I dunno Lana, does X Corporation exist in a world where men are a disadvantaged class-or this one?
Title: Re: 4Chan's "it's okay to be white" campaign
Post by: Askold on January 10, 2018, 01:18:40 am
First off, I would like to clarify my stance. I do not think harassment is ever acceptable, no matter the motivations behind it. It doesn't matter if somebody is a white supremacist or just an edgelord, they're still hurting other people. So "jk lol" is not an acceptable defense for harassment. I hope we can at least agree on that.

Now, with that out of the way, I think you're exaggerating the threat posed by these jokes. If they had as much recruiting power as you seem to be claiming, I think the alt-right would be much larger by now.

What is an acceptable amount of Nazis to recruit? If your jokes recruit 25 Nazis is that where you draw the line? How about just one Nazi? How about don't do things that help Nazis at all? If you stand in a crowd of Tiki torch wielders with your white shirt and Kekistan flag is that OK as long as you don't take part in murder?

Actually, direct question: Why do you think that the Alt-right would be much larger if the KEKE-bots helped recruit Nazis? Why would there be any Nazis parading openly if trolls didn't help create an atmosphere where Nazis feel welcome?