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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by dpareja on Today at 07:23:25 pm »
I have to wonder if these people who parrot the "republic not a democracy" talking point actually know the context.

Way way back in the late 18th century, "democracy" meant "direct democracy" (think ancient Athens) and "republic" meant "representative democracy" (think all democratic countries today--Switzerland's probably the closest to a direct democracy, but there are important checks on the power of the voters as a legislative body). Athenian democracy was essentially mob rule, and Madison et al were desperate to avoid that (see, for instance, Federalist No. 55). Hence they set up a republic (ie a representative democracy) specifically to hold the power of the mob in check. (Hence why the President is elected indirectly and the Senate was initially also elected indirectly.)

So technically the people who say "republic not a democracy" are right, if you're 225 years behind in your definitions.
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Politics and Government / Re: Best Political Cartoons
« Last post by davedan on Today at 05:56:23 pm »
The thing about Garrison is that he can be relied upon to parrot current right wing talking points, in this one that the US is not a democracy but a Republic, and that democracy itself is bad:

(click to show/hide)
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Benevolence, omni or otherwise is not consistent with genocide!

My previous comment explains why it is.
No, it doesn't. The apologetics field on theology only exists because the god of the bible is monstrous and the religious invent excuses for its abominable behaviour to help them sleep at night.

See atheists don't need all that crap, we understand that gods are metaphors for nature that can be pretty fucked up and reflections of the societies that invented them which can also be fucked up. Yahweh being a douche makes as much sense as Zues being one.

It's entirely consistent with understanding gods as metaphors for an uncaring universe and projections of their creators own screwed up, unreflective morality, of course your morality will be unreflective if you put all your stock in imaginary friends and thank/blame them for everything.

But I explained how everyone’s a sinner which justifies God’s genocide of the Canaanites.
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Preaching and Worship / More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on Today at 05:36:26 pm »
A good historical source about Jesus is Flavius Josephus. He mentioned Christ twice. And this is what Wikipedia says about the authenticity of his works.

Quote
The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear,[11] broad consensus exists as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]

Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"[12] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.[13][1][2][14][15][16] Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist also to be authentic and not a Christian interpolation.

It says that scholarship has considered both of Josephus’ writings on Jesus to be authentic even though the Testimonium Flavianum had some later Christian interpolations. Therefore Josephus confirms many of the events of the New Testament just as the life and death of Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

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Josephus' reference to James the brother of Jesus
And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent.

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Josephus' reference to John the Baptist
Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man... Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion... Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.

This last one, is said to have Christian interpolation. However I will make the interpolations bold to distinguish it from the authentic text. The authentic text confirms he was a teacher who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and that he had followers called Christians.
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About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
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Benevolence, omni or otherwise is not consistent with genocide!

My previous comment explains why it is.
No, it doesn't. The apologetics field on theology only exists because the god of the bible is monstrous and the religious invent excuses for its abominable behaviour to help them sleep at night.

See atheists don't need all that crap, we understand that gods are metaphors for nature that can be pretty fucked up and reflections of the societies that invented them which can also be fucked up. Yahweh being a douche makes as much sense as Zues being one.

It's entirely consistent with understanding gods as metaphors for an uncaring universe and projections of their creators own screwed up, unreflective morality, of course your morality will be unreflective if you put all your stock in imaginary friends and thank/blame them for everything.
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Benevolence, omni or otherwise is not consistent with genocide!

My previous comment explains why it is.
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Benevolence, omni or otherwise is not consistent with genocide!
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And that's quite frankly horrifying. Anyone and everyone can be killed in the name of God, because it's justified because they're sinners. That's one hell of a good reason not to subscribe to a belief system like that.

It DOES NOT MEAN that we are allowed to kill anyone. We are all sinners so we are not justified in killing others. However God is justified in killing anyone or ordering people killed because he is an omnibenevolent being without sin so he has the moral high ground unlike us.

So in regards to abortion, it is evil for humans to kill babies, however God can do so, or order the killing of babies like he did to the Canaanite babies in the Bible because babies are born in original sin due to the curse on mankind after the first evolved Homo sapiens Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.
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1. Well the Canaanites performed human sacrifice so it is a good thing that God ordered them killed, so that the Israelites would not convert to their wicked religion.
Quote
Does God approve of human sacrifice?
Yes.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt offering.

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:2

He commanded the Israelites to give him their firstborn sons.

Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. Exodus 22:29
He said that every "devoted thing ... both of man and beast ... shall surely be put to death."

No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 27:28-29
Moses commanded his officers to kill every Midianite male and non-virgin female, but to keep the virgin females alive for themselves -- except for one in a thousand which were to be given to God. After examining the females, the soldiers found 32,000 virgins, 32 of which were God's "booty". Sixteen of these were sacrificed to God as a "heave offering."

And Moses was wroth with the officers ... which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
...
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast ... And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord ... one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the Lord. ... And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses. And the booty ... was ... thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him ... of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons. Numbers 31:25-40

The Spirit of the Lord inspired Jephthah to to sacrifice to God whatever came out to greet him when he returned from slaughtering the Ammonites. When his daughter came out to greet him, Jephthah kept his promise to God by killing her as a burnt offering.

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed. Judges 11:29-40
God sent a famine is sent on David's kingdom for three years. When David asked God why, God answered: "It is for Saul, and his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites." To appease God and end the famine that was caused by his predecessor (Saul), David agreed to have two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed and hung up "unto the Lord." God stopped the famine after they were killed and hung up for him.

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land. 2 Samuel 21:1, 8-14
Josiah "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord" when he killed "all the priests of the high places" and burnt their bones upon their altars.

And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD ... And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee. 1 Kings 13:1-2
Josiah ... slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them. 2 Kings 23:20

Josiah ... did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord ... And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars. 2 Chronicles 34:1-5

Jesus was the ultimate human sacrifice, redeeming us all with his precious blood.
(Now God doesn't have to torture us all after we die, since he tortured Jesus to death as a substitute for us.)

Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. 1 Corinthians 5:7
Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things ... But with the precious blood of Christ. 1 Peter 1:18-19

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God ... that by means of death ... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator ... and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:13-22

We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

No.
At least God doesn't want us to sacrifice our children for any other god. That would be evil in the sight of the Lord.
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Leviticus 18:21
Every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31

He [Manasseh] made his son pass through the fire, and ... wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD. 2 Kings 21:6

If we sacrifice our children to another god, we must be stoned to death.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire. Deuteronomy 18:10
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

Yahweh loves his human sacrifices, just doesn't like it if you do it for anybody else!

2. They are saying that everyone’s a sinner and the wages of sin is death, meaning that God is justified in killing anyone including the Canaanites.

Which only makes sense to cowards and authoritarians, to the rest of us any moral system worthy of it's name is consistent and applies to all.

1. This is what Exodus 22:29 means. It does not mean sacrificing Firstborn sons. https://www.str.org/blog/god-didn’t-command-child-sacrifice#.W8T4zRYpDYU

2. The Bible does not say that God approved of Jephthah sacrificing his daughter. Wikipedia says this.
Quote
Unlike other instances of burnt offerings that were in fact in line with Mosaic law, there is no divine acknowledgement of this offering.

Some writers have observed that the Israelites of the time were decidedly barbarous; that Mosaic law (which forbade human sacrifice) was at this time widely disrespected; and that there are several other examples of rash vows to God with similarly terrible consequences.[10] Of course, the barbarism of the Israelites says nothing about why the God of the Bible would accept a child sacrifice. David Janzen argued that the story was an integral part of the Deuteronomist picture of moral decline through adoption of non-Israelitic practices such as child sacrifice.[11] Solomon Landers believed that the absence of express judgement implies that the sacrifice was not acceptable to God, notwithstanding the fact that the sacrifice nevertheless happened.[12] The Book of Judges has been seen as teaching a cycle of pride associated with rejection of God's law and subsequent suffering of the people.

3. The other people sacrificed were God’s and Israel’s enemies.

4. God’s moral system is consistent and applies to all. We are all sinners which is why he sent his son to sacrifice himself for us.
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1. Well the Canaanites performed human sacrifice so it is a good thing that God ordered them killed, so that the Israelites would not convert to their wicked religion.
Quote
Does God approve of human sacrifice?
Yes.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt offering.

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:2

He commanded the Israelites to give him their firstborn sons.

Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. Exodus 22:29
He said that every "devoted thing ... both of man and beast ... shall surely be put to death."

No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 27:28-29
Moses commanded his officers to kill every Midianite male and non-virgin female, but to keep the virgin females alive for themselves -- except for one in a thousand which were to be given to God. After examining the females, the soldiers found 32,000 virgins, 32 of which were God's "booty". Sixteen of these were sacrificed to God as a "heave offering."

And Moses was wroth with the officers ... which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
...
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast ... And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord ... one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the Lord. ... And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses. And the booty ... was ... thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him ... of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons. Numbers 31:25-40

The Spirit of the Lord inspired Jephthah to to sacrifice to God whatever came out to greet him when he returned from slaughtering the Ammonites. When his daughter came out to greet him, Jephthah kept his promise to God by killing her as a burnt offering.

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed. Judges 11:29-40
God sent a famine is sent on David's kingdom for three years. When David asked God why, God answered: "It is for Saul, and his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites." To appease God and end the famine that was caused by his predecessor (Saul), David agreed to have two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed and hung up "unto the Lord." God stopped the famine after they were killed and hung up for him.

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land. 2 Samuel 21:1, 8-14
Josiah "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord" when he killed "all the priests of the high places" and burnt their bones upon their altars.

And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD ... And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee. 1 Kings 13:1-2
Josiah ... slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them. 2 Kings 23:20

Josiah ... did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord ... And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars. 2 Chronicles 34:1-5

Jesus was the ultimate human sacrifice, redeeming us all with his precious blood.
(Now God doesn't have to torture us all after we die, since he tortured Jesus to death as a substitute for us.)

Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. 1 Corinthians 5:7
Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things ... But with the precious blood of Christ. 1 Peter 1:18-19

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God ... that by means of death ... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator ... and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:13-22

We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

No.
At least God doesn't want us to sacrifice our children for any other god. That would be evil in the sight of the Lord.
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Leviticus 18:21
Every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31

He [Manasseh] made his son pass through the fire, and ... wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD. 2 Kings 21:6

If we sacrifice our children to another god, we must be stoned to death.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire. Deuteronomy 18:10
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

Yahweh loves his human sacrifices, just doesn't like it if you do it for anybody else!

2. They are saying that everyone’s a sinner and the wages of sin is death, meaning that God is justified in killing anyone including the Canaanites.

Which only makes sense to cowards and authoritarians, to the rest of us any moral system worthy of it's name is consistent and applies to all.
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