Author Topic: Deadly Stampede in Mecca  (Read 3076 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« on: September 24, 2015, 05:11:05 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/world/middleeast/mecca-stampede.html?_r=0

This is absolutely inexcusable.  The Saudis have enormous resources, and given the past history of stampedes and disastrous accidents at Mecca, the Saudi authorities should taken steps long ago to insure that these human catastrophes would not be repeated again and again.

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2015, 05:37:38 pm »
They need to build more infrastructure that absorbs and partitions crowd momentum, but that's easier said than done with their logistics. What if they build all that and they need to move the line later?

Crowd control is a more difficult problem than most people give it credit for. We see stampedes all the time at Wal-Marts on Black Friday here in the U.S.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 06:42:29 pm »
I think they don't really care that much. From what I've been given to understand, Wahhabism is crazy enough that if they thought they could get away with it, the Saudis would destroy the Kaaba.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 12:16:32 pm »
They probably see it as some sort of self-martyrdom or "self-sacrifice for Allah".

Why are people stampeding all the time? Are they trying to run around the Kaaba? Aren't you supposed to circle it slowly & reverently? You can't be reverent while doing the 100-Yard Kaaba Dash.

I haven't read the article, I admit. I guess something crazy happened there, scared one guy and it snowballed from there.

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 01:08:51 pm »
Why are people stampeding all the time?

Because when you're shoulder-to-shoulder with a crowd and the entire crowd starts pushing you, you can't just stop moving. You're pushing people in front of you and the crowd gains its own momentum.
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Offline TheUnknown

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2015, 12:39:30 am »
They probably see it as some sort of self-martyrdom or "self-sacrifice for Allah".

Why are people stampeding all the time? Are they trying to run around the Kaaba? Aren't you supposed to circle it slowly & reverently? You can't be reverent while doing the 100-Yard Kaaba Dash.

I haven't read the article, I admit. I guess something crazy happened there, scared one guy and it snowballed from there.

According to the article I read, it wasn't at the Kaaba, it was at a narrow road where two opposing crowds collided.  Muslims don't just go to the Kaaba and leave; they have to visit certain places and complete certain rituals in order for it to count as a true Hajj.  This stampede occurred during one of these other rituals, between a crowd that had just finished it and a crowd waiting to start their turn.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 12:43:03 am by Iosa the Invincible »

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2015, 01:27:11 am »
A Lebanese Arabic-language daily claims that the stampede was caused by a Saudi prince's convoy and that the officials are trying to hush up the story. I have my doubts about the validity of the claim since there don't seem to be any other sources but on the other hand it's not completely unbelievable. We'll see if any eye witness statements about a military convoy surface later but unless something like that comes up I'm not going to buy into the claim.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2015, 09:59:31 am »
It's better to use only collapsible path border barriers for organizing such incredibly huge crowds. If a surge or panic occurs, the path barriers give way and although people can and will still be trampled if they fall down, at least the entire mass of people aren't trapped and literally crushing folks against solid walls.
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Offline TheUnknown

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 10:39:24 am »
A Lebanese Arabic-language daily claims that the stampede was caused by a Saudi prince's convoy and that the officials are trying to hush up the story. I have my doubts about the validity of the claim since there don't seem to be any other sources but on the other hand it's not completely unbelievable. We'll see if any eye witness statements about a military convoy surface later but unless something like that comes up I'm not going to buy into the claim.

From the article UP posted:

Quote
But some present in the area at the time said security forces had temporarily closed exits from an area packed with pilgrims, causing the crowding that led to the stampede.

Khalid Saleh, a Saudi government employee who rushed to the site when he heard screams and sirens, said he had found “huge numbers of people on the ground either dying or injured.” Pilgrims there told him that some of the area’s exits had been closed so that V.I.P. cars could pass, he said.

The Saudis’ main regional rival, Iran, blamed Saudi mismanagement for the tragedy. The head of Iran’s hajj organization, Said Ohadi, said two paths near the site of the accident had been closed for “unknown reasons.”


It seems some witnesses are verifying that theory.  At the very least, all that's really known is that certain exits were blocked off.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 01:23:20 pm »
A Lebanese Arabic-language daily claims that the stampede was caused by a Saudi prince's convoy and that the officials are trying to hush up the story. I have my doubts about the validity of the claim since there don't seem to be any other sources but on the other hand it's not completely unbelievable. We'll see if any eye witness statements about a military convoy surface later but unless something like that comes up I'm not going to buy into the claim.

From the article UP posted:

Quote
But some present in the area at the time said security forces had temporarily closed exits from an area packed with pilgrims, causing the crowding that led to the stampede.

Khalid Saleh, a Saudi government employee who rushed to the site when he heard screams and sirens, said he had found “huge numbers of people on the ground either dying or injured.” Pilgrims there told him that some of the area’s exits had been closed so that V.I.P. cars could pass, he said.

The Saudis’ main regional rival, Iran, blamed Saudi mismanagement for the tragedy. The head of Iran’s hajj organization, Said Ohadi, said two paths near the site of the accident had been closed for “unknown reasons.”


It seems some witnesses are verifying that theory.  At the very least, all that's really known is that certain exits were blocked off.


Stupid snobby royals and their sense of entitlement! May a thousand cranes fall on Saudi Royals' heads!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Deadly Stampede in Mecca
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 01:38:44 pm »
Stupid snobby royalscorporate directors and their sense of entitlement! May a thousand cranes fall on Saudi Royals'shareholders' heads!

Let's not kid ourselves that Saudi Arabia is anything other than a massive private business venture masquerading as a country.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.