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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Ultimate Paragon on August 07, 2015, 12:04:17 pm

Title: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on August 07, 2015, 12:04:17 pm
Some people are wondering if polygamy will be the next battleground when it comes to marriage equality.  Personally, I don't think so.  Leaving aside American social mores, there's a big difference from a legal standpoint.  With gay marriage, all you had to do was adapt existing laws to apply to same-sex couples.  On the other hand, polygamy would be a legal nightmare, because there are a lot of difficult questions.  Is everybody married to each other?  What happens in the event of divorce?  How is custody determined?  And what if one of the breadwinners dies?  Multiple marriages probably won't happen in my lifetime.

But what do you think?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Ironchew on August 07, 2015, 01:24:05 pm
Get ready to be conservatively shocked in a few decades, UP.

With gay marriage, all you had to do was adapt existing laws to apply to same-sex couples.  On the other hand, polygamy would be a legal nightmare, because there are a lot of difficult questions.  Is everybody married to each other?  What happens in the event of divorce?  How is custody determined?  And what if one of the breadwinners dies?

We have those laws already. They're used for corporations but you can tweak the wording to apply such contracts to multiple individuals incorporating into marriage. It's not that hard.

Personally I think states should be out of the business of defining marriage so that these restrictions don't keep popping up, but that won't happen until the unmarried population gets big enough that we leave the institution behind.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Canadian Mojo on August 07, 2015, 05:54:33 pm
As far as I can tell there is no protected class that is being discriminated against by limiting marriage to two people. Bans on interracial and homosexual marriage crossed that line very blatantly which is why they were struck down. If polygamy proponents are unable to meet this bar they will find it very hard to make much direct progress via legal challenges.

Having said that, now that gay marriage is legal it should become much easier to draw up legal agreements that will be honored since stipulations made about same sex partners can't be ignored out of hand so easily any more. That means a husband and wife should have equal consideration when it came to issues of the third spousal member and if none are actually married in the eyes of the law it should default evenly between the two (or three). Odds are it won't, but a few legal challenges will probably sort the bulk of it out along long established contract law precedences.

What happens after that is anybody's guess.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Lt. Fred on August 08, 2015, 06:14:04 pm
I dare say the next war will be trans rights. I hope so.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Cataclysm on August 10, 2015, 04:21:11 pm
What about incest? That involves 2 consenting adults, so it is a better parallel to Gay marriage.

Plus many of people who opposed gay marriage would be all for it anyhow, so there's less resistance.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: ironbite on August 10, 2015, 04:52:10 pm
See my jaw would normally be on the floor after something like that but then I saw who posted it.

Ironbite-and chuckled.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Ironchew on August 10, 2015, 05:10:05 pm
As far as I can tell there is no protected class that is being discriminated against by limiting marriage to two people.

The gay marriage opponents raised a similar point a while back. It was something along the lines of, "We're not discriminating against gay people! They have as much of a right as anyone else to marry a spouse of the opposite sex."

Saying that polygamous partners have just as much of a right as anyone else to restrict their marriage to, at most, serial monogamy is likewise duplicitous.

What about incest? That involves 2 consenting adults, so it is a better parallel to Gay marriage.

Two consenting adults that happen to be closely related can already marry. That's not an issue.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Canadian Mojo on August 10, 2015, 07:39:53 pm
As far as I can tell there is no protected class that is being discriminated against by limiting marriage to two people.

The gay marriage opponents raised a similar point a while back. It was something along the lines of, "We're not discriminating against gay people! They have as much of a right as anyone else to marry a spouse of the opposite sex."

Saying that polygamous partners have just as much of a right as anyone else to restrict their marriage to, at most, serial monogamy is likewise duplicitous.

It's not duplicitous if marriage is in fact strictly the union of two people; it's simply the definition -- just like a minor is anyone under 18 and a senior is anyone over 65. It does not discriminate against race or orientation. It might be possible to argue that it does discriminate against religions affiliation, but I would assume that the Mormons have already tried that and lost so maybe it is legally bullet proof on those grounds too.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Sigmaleph on August 10, 2015, 08:23:31 pm
What about incest? That involves 2 consenting adults, so it is a better parallel to Gay marriage.

Two consenting adults that happen to be closely related can already marry. That's not an issue.

Not true. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest_in_the_United_States)
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Ironchew on August 10, 2015, 09:04:30 pm
What about incest? That involves 2 consenting adults, so it is a better parallel to Gay marriage.

Two consenting adults that happen to be closely related can already marry. That's not an issue.

Not true. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest_in_the_United_States)

It's as if they think marriage is only about having kids and that preventing marriage will stop consenting adults from having kids...

As far as I can tell there is no protected class that is being discriminated against by limiting marriage to two people.

The gay marriage opponents raised a similar point a while back. It was something along the lines of, "We're not discriminating against gay people! They have as much of a right as anyone else to marry a spouse of the opposite sex."

Saying that polygamous partners have just as much of a right as anyone else to restrict their marriage to, at most, serial monogamy is likewise duplicitous.

It's not duplicitous if marriage is in fact strictly the union of two people; it's simply the definition

The definition of marriage in several states used to be the union of a man and a woman. Just because a restriction is to the letter doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: niam2023 on August 10, 2015, 09:19:50 pm
Personally, if Jaime and Cersei love each other and consent to the relationship, why should they be barred from partaking in sex, even if they're relate----

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140130193838/gameofthrones/images/thumb/a/ad/Jack-Gleeson-as-Joffrey-Baratheon_photo-Macall-B.-Polay_HBO.jpg/640px-Jack-Gleeson-as-Joffrey-Baratheon_photo-Macall-B.-Polay_HBO.jpg)

Oh.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Canadian Mojo on August 10, 2015, 09:28:18 pm
What about incest? That involves 2 consenting adults, so it is a better parallel to Gay marriage.

Two consenting adults that happen to be closely related can already marry. That's not an issue.

Not true. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest_in_the_United_States)

It's as if they think marriage is only about having kids and that preventing marriage will stop consenting adults from having kids...

As far as I can tell there is no protected class that is being discriminated against by limiting marriage to two people.

The gay marriage opponents raised a similar point a while back. It was something along the lines of, "We're not discriminating against gay people! They have as much of a right as anyone else to marry a spouse of the opposite sex."

Saying that polygamous partners have just as much of a right as anyone else to restrict their marriage to, at most, serial monogamy is likewise duplicitous.

It's not duplicitous if marriage is in fact strictly the union of two people; it's simply the definition

The definition of marriage in several states used to be the union of a man and a woman. Just because a restriction is to the letter doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
In this case it means it is the legal and constitutional thing to do. You need to figure an end-run around that little problem first.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Sigmaleph on August 10, 2015, 10:54:55 pm
Personally, if Jaime and Cersei love each other and consent to the relationship, why should they be barred from partaking in sex, even if they're relate----

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140130193838/gameofthrones/images/thumb/a/ad/Jack-Gleeson-as-Joffrey-Baratheon_photo-Macall-B.-Polay_HBO.jpg/640px-Jack-Gleeson-as-Joffrey-Baratheon_photo-Macall-B.-Polay_HBO.jpg)

Oh.

Oh come on, the Targaryens where incesting way before the Lannisters and their dynasty had such great kings as Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy and Aerys the Mad.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Ironchew on August 10, 2015, 11:22:50 pm
Jaime and Cersei beat the odds. 2 out of 3 sane kids isn't that bad.

And that's considering one parent is mildly insane herself.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: R. U. Sirius on August 11, 2015, 01:23:51 am
There's actually a fan theory that none of the current Lannister flock are actually Lannisters. In the books, it's strongly implied that the Targaryens would regularly consort with the wives of their nobles, and Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion are described as having platinum hair, only a few shades darker than the Targaryen white. Add in the mental instabilities, propensity for incest and some remarks Tywin makes to Tyrion about not being able to prove that Tywin isn't the father, and it starts to look like not a one of Tywin Lannister's kids might be his own.

This would also explain why Cersei and Jaime are relatively normal aside from the paranoia (which is also attributable to their environment) and incest, while Joffrey got hit with the insanity stick so bad...an infusion of fresh blood diluted the genetic causes of their mental issues, but going right back to family lovin' compounded them again. It's likely that their other children will start manifesting similar symptoms as they grow older.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: niam2023 on August 11, 2015, 02:03:52 am
Considering that, then Tommen is all of one bad day from becoming Maegar II Electric Buggaloo.

Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: RavynousHunter on August 11, 2015, 10:27:01 am
If that's true than, aside from being a dwarf, it seems that the only one that managed to largely dodge the bullet was Tyrion.  Then again, Tyrion's also my favourite, hands down, because he's just so damned cool, soooo...might be a little biased, lol.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Sigmaleph on August 11, 2015, 06:50:39 pm
There's actually a fan theory that none of the current Lannister flock are actually Lannisters. In the books, it's strongly implied that the Targaryens would regularly consort with the wives of their nobles, and Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion are described as having platinum hair, only a few shades darker than the Targaryen white. Add in the mental instabilities, propensity for incest and some remarks Tywin makes to Tyrion about not being able to prove that Tywin isn't the father, and it starts to look like not a one of Tywin Lannister's kids might be his own.

On the one hand, yeah, it's canon that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna (Tywin's wife) and not terribly fond of his own wife/sister Rhaella, and there's a rumour that he had sex with her at some point, before she married Tywin. On the other, Tywin Lannister does not suffer insults gladly, not even from Aerys, and and much less anything having to do with his wife. Iif Tywin had the slightest inkling that Aerys had fathered his children he'd probably have jumped to join Robert's Rebellion at the first chance he got. Instead, he waited around to see who had the upper hand.

Also, not sure of the timeline here, but I think Joanna spent almost all her time at Casterly Rock after her wedding. And both the Queen and Tywin would have an interest to keep her away from Aerys (Joanna was Rhaella's lady-in-waiting before she married Tywin and it's said the Queen tolerated Aerys indiscretions, but not when it concerned one of her ladies). I don't think he'd have the chance.

I suspect his remark to Tyrion was just out of disgust (and convenience), not because he actually thought he was a bastard.

Quote
This would also explain why Cersei and Jaime are relatively normal aside from the paranoia (which is also attributable to their environment) and incest, while Joffrey got hit with the insanity stick so bad...an infusion of fresh blood diluted the genetic causes of their mental issues, but going right back to family lovin' compounded them again. It's likely that their other children will start manifesting similar symptoms as they grow older.

Not necessarily! Most of the Targaryens were super inbred, and while they did have their share of crazy assholes that wasn't all of them. Daeron the Good, Jaehaerys the Conciliator, Aegon the Conqueror, those guys were pretty decent. And that's just kings, if you count general folk you have Aemon the Dragonknight, Rhaegar, Maester Aemon possiby though he was actually one of the least inbred Targaryens so he might not count.

Also, 3:1 odds that we'll never find out if Tommen or Myrcella go crazy or not because they die too soon.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: R. U. Sirius on August 11, 2015, 11:57:20 pm
There's actually a fan theory that none of the current Lannister flock are actually Lannisters. In the books, it's strongly implied that the Targaryens would regularly consort with the wives of their nobles, and Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion are described as having platinum hair, only a few shades darker than the Targaryen white. Add in the mental instabilities, propensity for incest and some remarks Tywin makes to Tyrion about not being able to prove that Tywin isn't the father, and it starts to look like not a one of Tywin Lannister's kids might be his own.

On the one hand, yeah, it's canon that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna (Tywin's wife) and not terribly fond of his own wife/sister Rhaella, and there's a rumour that he had sex with her at some point, before she married Tywin. On the other, Tywin Lannister does not suffer insults gladly, not even from Aerys, and and much less anything having to do with his wife. Iif Tywin had the slightest inkling that Aerys had fathered his children he'd probably have jumped to join Robert's Rebellion at the first chance he got. Instead, he waited around to see who had the upper hand.

While he doesn't take insults well, he's also shown to be one of the most intelligent and cunning men in the Seven Kingdoms. He would have known that, if the rebellion failed, everyone involved would have been heads on spikes, probably with their entire families. If Tywin is obsessed with anything, it's his legacy and the legacy of the Lannister family. He wouldn't have gambled his family's future on something as ephemeral as revenge, even if he did have his doubts about his children's paternity.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Legal: Is Polygamy Next?
Post by: Sigmaleph on August 12, 2015, 01:16:14 pm
Might be, you're right that wouldn't gamble the future of the Lannister family if he wasn't sure. But then he probably could have at least negotiated with Robert, Jon Ned, et al for a new wife of appropriately high station to give birth to new heirs (pretty much all the High Houses except Tyrell were on Robert's side of the rebellion, and I don't think the Tyrells had a match to offer Tywin).

In any case, I don't think there's enough to go on for the theory to work. No Targaryen eyes, the hair is typically described as golden rather than white, not much to go on other than a passing comment by Tywin that can easily be explained otherwise. Plus there's already one major character thought to be fathered by a High Lord that is actually a Targaryen bastard, do we really need three more?

I think we were talking about something else though. So, uh, how about those polygamy laws?


But to be honest my real reason for disagreeing is that Joanna x Tywin is my OTP and I will not tolerate any insinuation that they were anything less than perfect for each other.