Author Topic: Tired of the smear...  (Read 4179 times)

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Offline Nebulesque

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Tired of the smear...
« on: April 17, 2012, 11:46:38 am »
Hi all,

I've reached a stage in my life where I actually need some affirmation. I'm having a bit of a crisis of faith. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, apart from in a contextual sense. If you're reading this, then I hope I don't bore you...

I'm Catholic. I come from a long line of Catholics, as my family are Irish. My mother married an Anglican, which is close enough :) (I'm playing). My uncle on my father's side is an Anglican vicar. My uncle on my mothers side is a monseigneur in the Catholic church, based at the Vatican in charge of eccumenical affairs.

So that's my family... I believe, but I keep it too myself. I'm well educated. I drink, I smoke (sorry) and generally enjoy my life. Currently I work in a Muslim country, and am doing my best to learn about the Muslim faith, to see what compliments my own. I challenge my beliefs daily (Judas? He should be a Saint. If God gave man free will, yet Jesus was able to prophesise his own demise at the hand of Judas, Judas by definition could not have had free will. This he was there for a purpose, thus Judas = Saint). I find religion fascinating. I overtly reject the retarded within the church and embrace the coherent. Condoms? Fire them out the back of the popemobile. Go nuts. And yet I'm still Catholic.

My question, and yes I have one, is based on something I said on YouTube. After reading someone's comment stating that you can't go to heaven if you don't believe in our capital G God, I stated plainly that they're a fucking moron. Due to my response, I'm apparently not a Christian. You see, the ONLY way to heaven is by believing in Jesus. Now here I smell bullshit. The people who stated this also cite homosexuality as a sin and believe in the rapture.

Can anyone tell me how many times Jesus mentions homosexuality in the bible? A hint: it's less than once. The rapture is a man made item of pseudo-religios arse gravey, unmentioned in the bible.

So a) why can I only find intellectual discussion among fundie haters, b) does anyone find my rather boring beliefs offensive, and c) why, and I mean no offence to Americans in general, do I only hear this hatred when I wander into US dominated Internet space? I don't get this shit in the UK...

Hope someone's up for a chat about this. Much love xxx

Offline myusername

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 12:11:44 pm »
"b) does anyone find my rather boring beliefs offensive"

No I don't find them offesive at all. As an atheist I don't have a problem with personal beliefs at all, I just have a problem with people trying to eg. ban homosexuality, based on their religion. Religion and politics, never the twain shall meet, I think.
Though after reading the mainpage of this site on and off for 5 years it takes a lot for me to really be offended. :P

"Judas? He should be a Saint. If God gave man free will, yet Jesus was able to prophesise his own demise at the hand of Judas, Judas by definition could not have had free will. This he was there for a purpose, thus Judas = Saint"

Glad to see someone cuts Judas a bit of slack. Never really understood him going to Hell, if Jesus needed to be betrayed then someone had to do it...

EDIT Welcome to the site by the way

Offline Eniliad

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 12:12:01 pm »
Hello, Nebulesque! Welcome to FSTDT. :D

Hi all,

I've reached a stage in my life where I actually need some affirmation. I'm having a bit of a crisis of faith. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, apart from in a contextual sense. If you're reading this, then I hope I don't bore you...

Okay... I'm not sure how much affirmation a non-denominational-Christian-turned-Atheist can give, but I'll try to offer support as I can. Will that help? :)

I'm Catholic. I come from a long line of Catholics, as my family are Irish. My mother married an Anglican, which is close enough :) (I'm playing). My uncle on my father's side is an Anglican vicar. My uncle on my mothers side is a monseigneur in the Catholic church, based at the Vatican in charge of eccumenical affairs.

So that's my family... I believe, but I keep it too myself. I'm well educated. I drink, I smoke (sorry) and generally enjoy my life. Currently I work in a Muslim country, and am doing my best to learn about the Muslim faith, to see what compliments my own. I challenge my beliefs daily (Judas? He should be a Saint. If God gave man free will, yet Jesus was able to prophesise his own demise at the hand of Judas, Judas by definition could not have had free will. This he was there for a purpose, thus Judas = Saint). I find religion fascinating. I overtly reject the retarded within the church and embrace the coherent. Condoms? Fire them out the back of the popemobile. Go nuts. And yet I'm still Catholic.

...I like you. Let me just throw that out there. First of all, I don't condemn people for smoking or drinking. They are either natural products or based on them, and if you believe in creation, I posit that God would not see to great a deal with their use. Hell, Jesus drank. Why should you be sorry for that? I think it's abuse of these things that would be the problem. Anyway, I like your take on Judas; it's always been one of my major complaints about the church in general, that they portray him as a villain, when he was a key part of the crucifixion story! Without his betrayal the death couldn't have happened, etc...

My question, and yes I have one, is based on something I said on YouTube. After reading someone's comment stating that you can't go to heaven if you don't believe in our capital G God, I stated plainly that they're a fucking moron. Due to my response, I'm apparently not a Christian. You see, the ONLY way to heaven is by believing in Jesus. Now here I smell bullshit. The people who stated this also cite homosexuality as a sin and believe in the rapture.

Sounds like a Rapture Ready-an... if you've seen the main page, we have a TON of quotes from idiots who think the same way, many of which come from Rapture Ready. We have a name for them: Raptards. :)

Can anyone tell me how many times Jesus mentions homosexuality in the bible? A hint: it's less than once. The rapture is a man made item of pseudo-religios arse gravey, unmentioned in the bible.

As a gay man, this is something I've spent a great deal of time reading about. Indeed, the passages that condemn homosexuality are located in a couple places. The first is in Exodus, as one of a number of laws passed down to Moses... for his people. It is the Jewish people who would, therefore, consider a man lying with another man "an abomination ... [to be] put to death", if we were following the text. In the New Testament, Jesus never said it, though several apostles did (most notably Paul, who wrote most of the things in the New Testament I object to), which leads me to believe that Jesus is more tolerant than conservatives today would like to believe.

So a) why can I only find intellectual discussion among fundie haters, b) does anyone find my rather boring beliefs offensive, and c) why, and I mean no offence to Americans in general, do I only hear this hatred when I wander into US dominated Internet space? I don't get this shit in the UK...

Hope someone's up for a chat about this. Much love xxx

a) I think a lot of fundie haters are former fundies, people who were raised by them, or knew them, and subsequently fought back against their teachings through research and critical thinking. A lot of fundies resort to simple brainwashing techniques to try to get their kids/friends/etc to think the same way as they do, by providing only information supporting their viewpoint, using fear, etc... and the smart are the ones who learn to fight back against it. As such... I'd imagine a lot of them are bitter over it.

In short, it might be a cause-and-effect: Those who learn to dislike fundies are the ones who can argue best against them. Of course, your mileage may vary when discussing people; obviously that isn't everyone. :)

b) No. I actually have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church, but that doesn't mean I hate or even dislike practitioners. It's what you do with it, what your character is, that determines whether I like you or not. I have Christian friends... not many, admittedly, but I don't dislike people just for having a spiritual belief.

c) I... can't explain my country. Honestly, I love the US, I grew up here, it's got a lot going for it... but damn do we have some inbred-level stupid people in this country.
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Offline Id82

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 12:31:11 pm »
This is one reason why I can't find myself believing in anyone's thoughts on religion. Because everyone has their own interpretation on what is said by religious leaders and what is said in the bible. There's over a thousand denominations of  Christianity out there each believing a somewhat different analysis of the bible. One would think that if there was a God this God's thoughts on what it would want for us would be more coherent to the point that everyone would understand it. Since it's not this way it leads me to believe that this is all man written stuff.
Anyway I don't find your beliefs offensive at all. I think mainly for the fact that you sound like a pretty liberal tolerant person. You sound like you have a natural curiosity about religion and other people's beliefs. The reason why you hear this hatred mainly in America is due to the fact that America right now is going through a very neo conservative rebirth. Liberals in America tend to be for equality for woman's rights, for protecting the environment, for education. They might have a firm belief in the seperation of church and state. Which sounds good and all, but there's a firm strong opposition by the conservative right that seems to completely go against this. The conservative right are known to be really religious, some of them want to impose a state religion and run things according to their bible which most of them can't come to agreements on, despite the fact that our constitution says we are not allowed to have a state religion. I'm not sure if this kind of thing happens in the UK. So when some conservative in power says that because me, an atheist, hates America and freedom because I don't want to fit into their little perfect ideology. You can understand why there is a hatred. I don't want to hate or be annoyed by this but were bombarded by these assholes 24/7 on cable news channels. It makes it really scary that these people want to revert our country back to where it was 60 to 70 years ago. I blame baby boomers. They have this ideal time frame in there mind when they were children back in the 1950's when everything was so innocent and pure everyone was white and protestant and lived in a house with a father, mother and two kids, despite that in reality the wars and red scare and rampant racism  was going on in the country. Anyway I'm rambling on to much.
 To summarize this hatred is not really for religion, but for the fact that people in power want to use their own interpretation of religion and impose their own beliefs on everyone else, and conservative American's are letting them do it without really thinking about it. I'm assuming the reason why you can only have intellectual discussions with non believers is the fact that were more open minded and not stuck in a religion. Were able to see out side the box of one's beliefs instead of being one track minded about it.
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Offline Nebulesque

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 12:36:04 pm »
2 replies... And 2 of the most sensible responses I've ever read. There's a part of me that finds that infuriating, but guys, it has no bearing on you. The largest christian communities on the web seem to have that "All American" feel to them. By that, I mean unfair, bigoted, self-centred ass-hattery so commonplace on this site. The reason this site was created, I fact. I'm a big fan of America. Not everything it does, but America as a concept and country. The tragedy for me is several-fold:

To kick off, I once read on FSTDT a quote stating that the freedom to practice religion in fact meant the freedom to worship Jesus in whatever way one wished. At this, I felt sick. I honestly believe that religion is the opium of the masses, but that for people in pain, or in need, it can be easily condoned. Who cares what god you pray to if it helps you be a better person...? Which leads me to...

The fact that you need to answer to something higher to be a basicly good person, means you probably aren't. Judgement day? Bring it on. I do, as stated, believe in God. But how can he judge me? The only person who can judge me, by my standards, is me. He created me as child, but I made me the man I am.

If there is such a thing as multiculturalist... I am one. I live thy people can have what they have to help them through. Of it turns you into a Bill O'Reilly or a Glenn "Look, a Nazi" Beck, you're doing it wrong.

I'm ranting. Sorry guys. I'm kinda sad that the most accepting community is one at odds with me, whereas the ones who believe as I do, condem my beliefs as non-Christian.

I appreciate everything you guys have said, and am so glad I joined this site. Thank you

Offline Nebulesque

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 12:59:27 pm »
Sorry ID82, you replied when I was typing. Loved your reply too :)

America has a wonderful thing... The freedom of religion. I cite this as I think important to mention something. Every country in the modern world (I live in Malaysia... So we'll leave a few countries out for the moment) has the freedom of religion. No country I've ever seen, however, mentions it so much, and adheres to it so little as the US.

I'm liberal. Very. Gay bars are the single best places to drink as a straight guy. A) I'm guaranteed to get my ass complimented, B) I get free drinks and most importantly C) single girls go there to avoid getting hit on. Oh the joy... Hahaha seriously though, who cares? I believe it was Michelle Bachmann who said "The biggest threat facing America today is homosexual marriage, I'm. It understating that"... Well, yes, you are.

No one cares. Contraception, abortion, religion, homosexuality... I thought we'd finished that game. Clowns yet I see a country run by people elected on these issues alone.

I like where I am. I like what I believe. I pick holes in my faith, and if stuff comes apart as I examine it, I throw it away. In the US, you have to pick a side. I think that's a shame.

There was a wonderful piece I read by a man name Neil Gaiman, a british writer popular in the states. He wrote a piece called "Vampire Tarot Cards", a delightful look into the subject of tarot from the point of view of mythical creatures. One part always hit home for me though... They mention Jesus. I'm writing from memory, but to the best of my knowledge the card read: This is my body, he said, two thousand years ago. This is my blood.
It was the only religion that delivered exactly what it promised: life eternal, for its adherents.
There are some of us alive today who remember him. And some of us claim that he was a messiah, and some think that he was just a man with very special powers. But that misses the point. Whatever he was, he changed the world.

And I'm ok with just that.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 01:39:48 pm »
Welcome Nebulesque!

A few things:

1) Don't apologize for smoking.  It's your body, do what you want with it, even if it means that.  Just don't do it around other people who aren't smokers as well, and I've got no complaint with ya :D

2) Interesting unorthodox views on Judas.  I think I like that!  Too bad I never comfortably arrived to that conclusion when I was a Christian

3) I don't find your beliefs offensive at all.  Unorthodox, yes, offensive, not at all.  We aren't all atheists here, there's witches, pagans, hindu, hell, one of our moderators is a bloody Christian... all are welcome here as long as they aren't fundies XD

4) The USA is definitely where most of the extremist Christians congregate... mainly because they can actually sway the masses here for some reason.  Britain seems to do a better job of keeping religion out of politics.  Perhaps the UK does, too?  I'm not sure.

5) You're into Tarot? :D
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Offline Nebulesque

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 03:41:30 pm »
Hahaha Thanks Zachski!

Would you say Jesus was liberal? Obviously I'm working on the basis that he existed at all. But he always strikes me as what Americans call liberal. You see, for us, liberal is actually right in the centre of the political spectrum. We have The Labour Party on the left, The Conservative, or Tory Party on the right, and a party called The Liberal Democrats smack bang in the centre. So it always intrigues me that you can only be right or left in the states. Surely some people hold views from both sides? Not everything the right says is insane... though I find the political commentators (something else we don't hve at home... if you wanna do the news, do the news. Don't just fucking make it up *cough* Glenn *cough*) unfairly balanced... Jon Stewart, Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert (they're the closest to left wing pundits as you can get, if you ignore Olbermann, and I do) versus O'Rielly, Beck and Hannity... A Jew, and Atheist and a Catholic vs a fat idiot, a monkey and a screaming machine.

Jesus was liberal, for sure :D I love religion. I love that I can even piss off fundies with it.

Then again, I believe it was Nietzsche who said "there was only one true christian and he died on the cross"... So we're probably all as bad as each other.

And Zachski, no, not tarot. I tend to stay away from new age religions. Nothing to do with what they believe or any sensible reason... I'm just a cynic. A big fat cynic lol.

15 Painted Cards From A Vampire Tarot is a short story by Neil Gaiman. Very nicely written...

Offline Eniliad

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 03:48:30 pm »
In this thread: Possibly the coolest Catholic I've ever met. :D
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Offline Nebulesque

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 04:14:20 pm »
I... Wow. Thank you sir. You've made my day!

I just feel there's so much room for some fun debate. Religion was made for man... Not man for religion. I fail to see why I should be subservient to a set of rules when I disagree with certain concepts. For example, I believe in God, as you know. Fine. But I also believe in the absolute separation of church and state. I wouldn't live in a country run by Christians any sooner than Muslims or Hindus. Religion CAN be a great thing, but it doesn't mean you have to choose it over or instead of logic and science.

Sometimes I just want to start my own church. Still have mass, still have prayers etc... Just with less politics. Less intrusion into personal lives. Less dogmatic rules with regards to a persons sexual orientation or what they do with their body. I don't feel the need to prove anything, or convert anyone. Big Bang? Sure! Evolution? Obviously. But I correlate them with my faith too. It's not hard. It saddens me when I see people who's convictions are so strong that thwy're borderline dangerous. Why in the name of God's ARSE does it matter that the world is older than 6000 years? Does it change anything?

I weep for the future if these people ever get real power.

Ps. Thank you all for being so welcoming. Not one bad comment, compared to christian web sites to whom I'm basically the devil in disguise.

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 04:34:06 pm »
Per that last bit in the OP, there is plenty of hate and stupidity from other areas, it hits the mainpage fairly often, but for some reason it seems the idiots in the US have easier access to computers than the idiots of the rest of the world. Or perhaps it's part of the manifest destiny mentality leading them to flow out onto the entire internet rather than in their own little dungeons.

Offline Old Viking

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 04:50:35 pm »
Employing objectivity and reason in your discussions with fundies is what Socrates called "Pissing into the wind."
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Offline Eniliad

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 05:33:35 pm »
I... Wow. Thank you sir. You've made my day!

Woot! :D

I just feel there's so much room for some fun debate. Religion was made for man... Not man for religion. I fail to see why I should be subservient to a set of rules when I disagree with certain concepts. For example, I believe in God, as you know. Fine. But I also believe in the absolute separation of church and state. I wouldn't live in a country run by Christians any sooner than Muslims or Hindus. Religion CAN be a great thing, but it doesn't mean you have to choose it over or instead of logic and science.

Honestly, I need people like you every once in a while. I have a lot of personal problems due to mistreatment at the hands of the church (nothing that would stand out on a site like this, but still unpleasant), and it's easy to start hating religion in general or the people who practice it, when the most vocal practitioners are the kind of people that get quoted here. Just that friendly reminder that there are plenty of people of faith... who are genuinely good people, that don't hate, don't discriminate, don't shun things they don't totally understand, etc... It's very refreshing. :)

Sometimes I just want to start my own church. Still have mass, still have prayers etc... Just with less politics. Less intrusion into personal lives. Less dogmatic rules with regards to a persons sexual orientation or what they do with their body. I don't feel the need to prove anything, or convert anyone. Big Bang? Sure! Evolution? Obviously. But I correlate them with my faith too. It's not hard. It saddens me when I see people who's convictions are so strong that thwy're borderline dangerous. Why in the name of God's ARSE does it matter that the world is older than 6000 years? Does it change anything?

When I said in my earlier post that I had issues with the Catholic Church, THIS is what I was talking about. The politicking, the control the leaders have over their congregations, the intrusion into people's daily lives... not to mention some truly heinous acts done in the name of "charity" (like when the  Pope acknowledged that AIDS was bad... but not enough to stop discouraging Africans from using condoms to prevent its spread).

As for science versus religion... indeed, the two seek to answer completely different questions. Science seeks to answer questions about how the universe works, and ways to improve life for humanity here on earth, while religion seeks to answer more philosophical questions, regarding our purpose, regarding what happens after death, how we should live to make the most of it, etc... so long as nobody tries to force their perspective on me, it's perfectly fine regardless of what you think. But that last point is something I wish more churches would understand. You won't convert anyone by yelling at them on the street about how they're wrong, they're going to be punished for living the way they are, or that only by going to your church can you be saved. That's attempted conversion through fear. That's attempted coercion through guilt or doubt. It doesn't work. If the church led by example, I might still be a member.

I weep for the future if these people ever get real power.

Ps. Thank you all for being so welcoming. Not one bad comment, compared to christian web sites to whom I'm basically the devil in disguise.

Aww, now's my favorite part of FSTDT: Where we all crowd around you and hug you. :3
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 05:46:46 pm »
Personally, I would say Jesus was actually two people; one was liberal and progressive, one was conservative and not too different from the pharisees that he was denouncing.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Tired of the smear...
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 11:47:48 pm »
Jesus was a brown-skinned Jew who denounced war, cared for the poor, and offered free food and healthcare. Basically, the kind of guy the GOP today would denounce as an "un-American socialist subversive."

I'm an atheist and I don't find your beliefs offensive at all. I don't typically take issue with personal religious beliefs. :-/
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