Author Topic: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?  (Read 11852 times)

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Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 09:43:15 pm »
Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism.

...I'm sorry. There seem to be words here, and they seem to be in an order that should make some sort of sense, but they just...don't. "Did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism"? Wha?
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Offline Rime

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 09:55:04 pm »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
I've been told recently that it's just an attribution, but it's stuck for so long because it fits his attitude.
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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 09:55:32 pm »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."

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Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2013, 10:08:23 pm »
Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism to be good.

Edit: Sorry should make more sense now.

And that was exactly my point. The Good Samaritan is held up as an ideal for Jesus' followers to strive for. Yet, if you go by the story (and if it had been a real event), many modern Christians would say the Samaritan was going to Hell because he didn't convert.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2013, 10:16:30 pm »
Which is why I thought it spoke more about Jesus's attitude to the profession of faith than and proselytising than the scriptures referred to, being as they are, ambiguous.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 10:29:52 pm »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."

My answer to that would be another Bible verse.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.

Offline davedan

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2013, 10:32:03 pm »
Isn't Romans the words of Paul? A man.

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 10:48:52 pm »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."

My answer to that would be another Bible verse.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.

I think it would happen a lot more if more Christians walked the walk, or at least didn't allow the screaming about hellfire and damnation to set the standard for conversations of faith. Modern Christianity has, by and large, become very little about selfless love and very much about separating people into "us" and "them". It's become less about being your brother's keeper and more about filling the pews. It's become less about helping people in this life and more about securing your own place in the afterlife. In short, modern Christianity has a bad reputation, and it's very largely deserved.

Remember, according to Genesis, when God looked on his completed creation, he saw that it was "very good"...and that statement is never withdrawn, not even with the tower of Babel or Noah's flood. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Combine that with Jesus' teachings about love and sins of the heart, and it adds up to one thing in my mind: Nobody has lived a life of perfect, unconditional love.

Finally, if the Bible is the Word of God, perfect and inerrant, why are so many prophecies shrouded in opaque symbolism? Why are so many incredible things recorded in the Bible, but nowhere else, despite the effect they would have had on other people? Where, for that matter, does the Bible ever say that it is the word of God?

Edit: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240 This strip and the three after it give an excellent portrait about how many people today perceive Christianity.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 10:56:07 pm by R. U. Sirius »
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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 11:01:43 pm »
Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism to be good.

Edit: Sorry should make more sense now.

And that was exactly my point. The Good Samaritan is held up as an ideal for Jesus' followers to strive for. Yet, if you go by the story (and if it had been a real event), many modern Christians would say the Samaritan was going to Hell because he didn't convert.

I'd like to try and tackle this issue now if you guys don't mind.  First the "Good Samaritan" is a parable, he isn't a real person. Therefor at no point does Jesus say or even refer that he was saved by these acts because it wasn't necessary for the story. To speculate on if he is or isn't going to hell would just be adding something to the story that was never meant to be part of the story.

The parable was actually not in response to the question of how to be saved. Let me explain.

In verse 25 we see
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Jesus says "...What is written in the law?... "

He responds with "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself"

Jesus' response "...Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Lawyer - "...willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"

Now, this is the question Jesus is answering with this parable. He's already answer the question of "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" The "Good Samaritan" is not meant to show how to be saved, but rather to show the Lawyer he wasn't keeping the Law. The Lawyer tried to justify that by saying "well, I love my neighbor but not the Samaritan's. Surely they aren't who we're talking about right?" I saw it posted on the net and I'll try my best at rewording it. The meanings of the "Good Samaritan" parable are we should set aside our prejudice and show love and compassion to everyone. It was also used to show that we cannot keep the Law, and we need a savior (Someone to do it for us). So really, the status of the "Good Samaritan" (or fictional character) doesn't matter, and is never discussed.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 11:02:58 pm »
Isn't Romans the words of Paul? A man.

As Christians we believe the whole Bible was written by men, who were inspired to write what they did, by God. So technically, we believe the Bible was written by God, through men.

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 11:05:04 pm »
I'd be more inclined to listen to Christians if televangelists didn't live in mansions while crying that their church needs more money.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 11:11:36 pm »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."

My answer to that would be another Bible verse.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.

I think it would happen a lot more if more Christians walked the walk, or at least didn't allow the screaming about hellfire and damnation to set the standard for conversations of faith. Modern Christianity has, by and large, become very little about selfless love and very much about separating people into "us" and "them". It's become less about being your brother's keeper and more about filling the pews. It's become less about helping people in this life and more about securing your own place in the afterlife. In short, modern Christianity has a bad reputation, and it's very largely deserved.

Remember, according to Genesis, when God looked on his completed creation, he saw that it was "very good"...and that statement is never withdrawn, not even with the tower of Babel or Noah's flood. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Combine that with Jesus' teachings about love and sins of the heart, and it adds up to one thing in my mind: Nobody has lived a life of perfect, unconditional love.

Finally, if the Bible is the Word of God, perfect and inerrant, why are so many prophecies shrouded in opaque symbolism? Why are so many incredible things recorded in the Bible, but nowhere else, despite the effect they would have had on other people? Where, for that matter, does the Bible ever say that it is the word of God?

Edit: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240 This strip and the three after it give an excellent portrait about how many people today perceive Christianity.

I'd agree with much of what you're saying. There is a lot of that going on. To me it's just more proof that we are sinful at nature and are imperfect beings who fail, even when our intentions are good. However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.         

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 11:26:49 pm »
People might be less inclined to hold Christians to such high standards if Christians spent less time pointing out other people's imperfections. "You hypocrite, how can you speak of the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a beam through your own? First remove the beam from your own eye; then you will see clearly to help your neighbor remove the mote." Too many Christians take the phrase "not perfect, just forgiven" and use it as an excuse to act in ways that Jesus would, at the very least, disapprove of. When I was in school, some of my worst tormentors were Christians, particularly when I lived in Kentucky. I was once stoned by the choir of my family's church; that was when I stopped participating in the choir and gave up on organized religion in general. For all the people that modern Christians like to point out as destined for Hell, Jesus used that particular condemnation for only one type of person: Hypocrites.

I can't tell if you've really changed from the few posts you've had in this go-round thus far. You're showing some good signs, but as the saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy."
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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 11:56:03 pm »
People might be less inclined to hold Christians to such high standards if Christians spent less time pointing out other people's imperfections. "You hypocrite, how can you speak of the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a beam through your own? First remove the beam from your own eye; then you will see clearly to help your neighbor remove the mote." Too many Christians take the phrase "not perfect, just forgiven" and use it as an excuse to act in ways that Jesus would, at the very least, disapprove of. When I was in school, some of my worst tormentors were Christians, particularly when I lived in Kentucky. I was once stoned by the choir of my family's church; that was when I stopped participating in the choir and gave up on organized religion in general. For all the people that modern Christians like to point out as destined for Hell, Jesus used that particular condemnation for only one type of person: Hypocrites.

I can't tell if you've really changed from the few posts you've had in this go-round thus far. You're showing some good signs, but as the saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy."

I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked. I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true. I've heard it said that if you throw a stone in a yard full of dogs the one who yelps is the one who got hit. I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it. I do want to point out though that Jesus did say hypocrites would be cast out, but he's pretty clear that all sinners will have their part in the lake of fire. I know it may seem like I'm hell fire preaching now, I just wanted to make the point that isn't the only group of people. I'd be irresponsible of me to let you think that everyone but hypocritical Christians are ok to go.

I also want to say that's terrible about your childhood experience, and for what it's worth I'd like to apologize for the way those Christians treated you. Again I know some Christians don't act right, but also remember that Jesus said some Christians would be cast out because he never knew them. That doesn't mean that true believers will be cast out, but rather there are some people going around claiming to be something they're not. I'd just like to implore you, and everyone else reading to not judge God for what his presumed followers have done.

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 01:29:49 am »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
I love love LOVE that quote.  Ol' Francis was awesome.  Animal lover to boot.  I try to use him as a religious role model, because I'm not perfect enough to emulate Jesus.