Bill Maher and Sam Harris Vs. Islam

[Dakota Bob]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60</a>

So I'm sure at least some of you have heard about this little ruckus between Ben Affleck, Bill Maher and Sam Harris (I first heard about it from the Friendly Atheist)

So what do ya think? You think the criticisms of Islam are on point, or were they being bigoted?

[Nemo]

I don't always care for Bill Maher, but Sam Harris versus Ben Affleck? Easy win for Harris. And he's right. I don't want to ban religious thinking, but someone needs to address the problems inherent to Islam. Secularists, including myself, have no problem saying exactly what is wrong with fundamentalist Christianity, and no, I don't mean "fundy" Christianity. I mean, by the book Christianity. We need to apply the same standard to Islam.

I call the Christian god an ancient war deity? Nobody cares. I say Paul wrote the Book of Romans while he was butthurt about losing a debate? Full approval. I call Moses a war criminal? Nobody cares. I note that Muhammad was a pedophile and a thug? Cue the accusations of racism, having an "irrational fear" of the belief system the guy created, and having a personal vendetta. There is a double standard there.

[Ultimate Paragon]

I don't always care for Bill Maher, but Sam Harris versus Ben Affleck? Easy win for Harris. And he's right. I don't want to ban religious thinking, but someone needs to address the problems inherent to Islam. Secularists, including myself, have no problem saying exactly what is wrong with fundamentalist Christianity, and no, I don't mean "fundy" Christianity. I mean, by the book Christianity. We need to apply the same standard to Islam.

I call the Christian god an ancient war deity? Nobody cares. I say Paul wrote the Book of Romans while he was butthurt about losing a debate? Full approval. I call Moses a war criminal? Nobody cares. I note that Muhammad was a pedophile and a thug? Cue the accusations of racism, having an "irrational fear" of the belief system the guy created, and having a personal vendetta. There is a double standard there.

Maybe there is a double standard, but unfortunately, the fact remains that Muslims, unlike Christians and Jews, are heavily marginalized in much of the developed world.

[Ironchew]

So what do ya think? You think the criticisms of Islam are on point, or were they being bigoted?

SBill were pretty much right on target. They expressed my concerns about extremists existing in a wider bubble of moderates/conservatives that enable their doctrine and activities -- very similar to observing of Christians in the U.S., "Yeah, you're most likely not part of the KKK or the anti-gay legislation in Uganda. But you often vote for representatives or donate money to evangelists that support them." Death by apostasy, the mistreatment of women, the horrific treatment of gays, and the riots against cartoonists that draw Mohammed simply wouldn't keep going in Muslim countries without majority sentiment from the populace. Also, criticism of the bad ideas inherent to religion isn't criticism of individuals. Most people still don't get that.

Affleck brought up two really good points. One that probably goes without saying is that U.S. media attention toward Muslims is mostly channeled through angry white Christians that want to prove that Christianity and whiteness is superior to those filthy ay-rabs. The other point he alluded to that I think needs more attention is that radical Islam was deliberately cultivated in the Middle East by foreign entities to destabilize it. The United States has interests there that are facilitated by autocrats and religious extremist leaders that can keep the people in line, and it turns out that if you repeatedly carpet-bomb a country and totally destroy its infrastructure, the populace becomes more religiously extremist and more likely to rally behind autocrats/theocrats. The wars we started in Iraq and Syria against ISIS certainly won't help matters, if anything, it will only bolster extremist organizations and make the problem worse.

SBill and Affleck were probably talking past each other and I think it was mostly miscommunication that made things get so heated.

[Second Coming of Madman]

Oh, boy! A box to keep Nemo in! 

[Sigmaleph]

I'm not a fan of Harris and Maher in general, but dealing with the specific views expressed in that clip, I think they were right. There is a lot of "criticising Islam is racism/bigotry!" going on. And sure, to some extent it's because there is a lot of racist and bigoted sentiment against Muslims (or people who "look Muslim"). But a religion, any religion, is an ideology, with good and bad parts (usually) and sometimes you need to take a look at the bad parts and say "this is horrible".

I would've loved a more civilized discussion rather than talking past each other. Also, a moderate Muslim in the room.

[lord gibbon]

I've always felt that Maher is a bit biased against Islam (in Religulous, he treated Geert Wilders with respect and seemed to actually buy his nonsense), but Affleck is trying way too hard to defend it. As I see it, Islam is no worse than any other religion, but religion in general is a problem.

[mythbuster43]

I felt that Sam Harris and Bill Maher bring their criticisms of Islam up in a much better way than the likes of Pat Condell, who frankly is not helping at all with trying to prove that criticism of Islam is not the same thing as Islamophobia/Racism

[Art Vandelay]

Well, that video was goddamn annoying to watch. Between those idiots trying to yell over the top of each other every ten seconds (because whoever is loudest is right, that's how it works, eh?) and the audience clapping and cheering at the end of every sentence, I just want to punch each and every one of those knobs in the face.

In any case, I fully agree with Harris. There is this glaring double standard among leftists that it's okay to rip into Christianity as much as you please, yet as soon as you say one bad word about Islam, you're suddenly a bigot (in fact, I'd say that applies to Wicca/Paganism/whatever other new age bollocks as well), and it's nothing more than partisan bullshit. The only reason this is a thing is a response to the neocons hating all things Muslim, and it's just as irrational and stupid as what they're doing.

If you ever needed proof that both sides of politics are drooling halfwits, look no further.

[Nemo]

in fact, I'd say that applies to Wicca/Paganism/whatever other new age bollocks as well

I dislike the term "Paganism" largely because it means too much. That said, few pagans that I have ever encountered online have given me reason to criticize their beliefs. Spuki Kitty is a Wiccan, as I recall, and she has never once tried to scare me with empty threats into converting. For that matter, she has never proselytized me at all. Sure, there are people like Wotan's Whatever, but there aren't organized Political Polytheist movements which try to impose themselves on others. That's why Wicca usually gets a pass. As for New Age stuff that tries to scam people out of their money for placebo effect medicine, I am prepared to criticize that.

[Art Vandelay]

in fact, I'd say that applies to Wicca/Paganism/whatever other new age bollocks as well

I dislike the term "Paganism" largely because it means too much. That said, few pagans that I have ever encountered online have given me reason to criticize their beliefs. Spuki Kitty is a Wiccan, as I recall, and she has never once tried to scare me with empty threats into converting. For that matter, she has never proselytized me at all. Sure, there are people like Wotan's Whatever, but there aren't organized Political Polytheist movements which try to impose themselves on others. That's why Wicca usually gets a pass. As for New Age stuff that tries to scam people out of their money for placebo effect medicine, I am prepared to criticize that.

I wasn't referring to the behaviour of its adherents, I'm talking about criticising the religion itself. For example, you can say that Christianity is a load of questionably translated horseshit written by bronze age goat herders who didn't understand even the tiniest fragment of what we know nowadays thanks to modern science, and anyone who actually believes it must have rocks in their head, and most leftists won't bat an eye. On the other hand, say anything half as scathing about Wicca and suddenly you're an ignorant bigot (more or less the same thing with Islam, as Harris and Maher pointed out).

In any case, this is getting a tad off topic, so it's probably best to take this discussion elsewhere, should you wish to continue it.

[Sylvana]

For starters, Maher has a massive prejudice against Muslims. You see it in many of his clips.

Unfortunately in their little debate, I found myself leaning more towards Sam Harris and Maher. Despite the abrahamic religions all being essentially the same, the behaviors of a lot of the people who follow Islam is cause for concern. Both Christianity and Islam tell their adherents to treat their wives like property and to kill unbelievers, but these days its really only Muslims that still adhere to those teachings. The silent majority who dont seem too put out by the actions of the people they give power to in many regards acts as consent.

IT really is a sticky issue though, because at the same time, Muslims really only act like that in predominantly Muslim countries which are almost exclusively in the middle east, in countries that are run by power hungry oligarchs who violently stamp down on anyone trying to disrupt the status quot. While Muslims living in the west are pretty much indistinguishable from the local Christians in those countries.

So perhaps the problem is not so much that Islam and Muslims are radical, but that the social and political problems of the middle east promote radical religiosity. This radical religiousness then spreads out in small isolated incidents as people move around because we live in a global society.

[lord gibbon]

For starters, Maher has a massive prejudice against Muslims. You see it in many of his clips.

Unfortunately in their little debate, I found myself leaning more towards Sam Harris and Maher. Despite the abrahamic religions all being essentially the same, the behaviors of a lot of the people who follow Islam is cause for concern. Both Christianity and Islam tell their adherents to treat their wives like property and to kill unbelievers, but these days its really only Muslims that still adhere to those teachings. The silent majority who dont seem too put out by the actions of the people they give power to in many regards acts as consent.

IT really is a sticky issue though, because at the same time, Muslims really only act like that in predominantly Muslim countries which are almost exclusively in the middle east, in countries that are run by power hungry oligarchs who violently stamp down on anyone trying to disrupt the status quot. While Muslims living in the west are pretty much indistinguishable from the local Christians in those countries.

So perhaps the problem is not so much that Islam and Muslims are radical, but that the social and political problems of the middle east promote radical religiosity. This radical religiousness then spreads out in small isolated incidents as people move around because we live in a global society.

I think you've got it. The problem isn't that their Islamic, it's that they live under dictatorships, and dictatorships LOOOOOVE religion.

"Religion is regarded by the common man as true, by the wise man as false, and by the powerful man as useful."-Seneca

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

There are geopolitical issues that are often left unsaid of any discussion of Islam in the media, this is complicated by the fact that many Islamists are taking up causes that back in the 1970's were the bread and butter of secular Arab Nationalists like Iraq's Baathists and Nasser in Egypt, a political position that barely exists any more.

A lot of the things that Islamists are pissed at the west about can be more readily traced back to geopolitical conflicts in the middle East. Conflicts involving Israel, American foreign policy as regards the Middle East as well as the agendas of Russian, European and Chinese interests in the region. The more severe Wahabist Sunni strain, that championed by ISIL and Al Queda, has been there for a long time as has the equally fundamentalist Shia Islam of the Ayatollah's but both have become a lot more prominent as secular Arab Nationalism died back or became less hostile to western interests. 

The thing is, the people who are doing most of the nationalist fighting on the ground in the Middle East are doing so under religious banners, not secular nationalist ones so it's almost impossible for the media to separate which actions by Islamists are primarily faith based and which are more geopolitical or ethnically driven in nature. So when discussing Islam, and what the more radical Islamists are doing it's good to pay heed to the geopolitical situation on the ground in the places where radical Islamists are acting out their ideology. Some of what your ISIL/Al Qaeda types do can be traced primarily back to their interpretation of their religion, but a lot more of it can be traced back to Islamists taking off where secular Arab nationalists left off.

[Nemo]

Looks like this isn't over just yet. Reza Aslan made a comment on Twitter about being attacked by atheists. So now the Ex Muslims of North America has started a hashtag campaign where people share their deconversion experiences, as well as the vitriol they've received from their families.

This is a good thing. Keep this conversation going. The longer it goes on, the more muck will be raked out.