Author Topic: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities  (Read 20432 times)

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2015, 03:36:46 am »
American resource barons really only began to emerge in the 19th Century.

Given the age of the country that's really not all that surprising.  ::)
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I am not particularly concerned by the loss of a "quarantine" subreddit. If people are upset by the racists' presence, they can ban them from their reddits or just make it clear through group action they are not welcome.

I am not obligated to suffer the presence or speech of a racist.

Well, I am, because I'm afraid it won't stop there.

And I never said you were.

Am I to understand that that you feel it is okay for niam to do what he wants about racists (i.e. ban them) but it is not okay for the actual owner of the board? Or are you saying niam is free to take his business elsewhere if he wants but the racist gets to stay?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2015, 07:51:42 am »
American resource barons really only began to emerge in the 19th Century.

Given the age of the country that's really not all that surprising.  ::)
Quote

I am not particularly concerned by the loss of a "quarantine" subreddit. If people are upset by the racists' presence, they can ban them from their reddits or just make it clear through group action they are not welcome.

I am not obligated to suffer the presence or speech of a racist.

Well, I am, because I'm afraid it won't stop there.

And I never said you were.

Am I to understand that that you feel it is okay for niam to do what he wants about racists (i.e. ban them) but it is not okay for the actual owner of the board? Or are you saying niam is free to take his business elsewhere if he wants but the racist gets to stay?

Maybe I should've been clearer.  What I mean is that you're free to downvote racists, make it clear they're not welcome, or ban them if you own the subreddit.  My problem is with Reddit depriving them of their subreddits.

Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2015, 12:11:35 pm »
Ultimate Paragon, direct question. Where besides the government are you finding a right to free speech? You said it's not just a First Amendment thing. What other thing is it?
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2015, 12:17:27 pm »
Ultimate Paragon, direct question. Where besides the government are you finding a right to free speech? You said it's not just a First Amendment thing. What other thing is it?

It's complicated, but part of it's the right for everybody to have more or less equal access to communication platforms and infrastructure, regardless of opinion.

Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2015, 12:23:51 pm »
Interesting. Please go on.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2015, 02:52:14 pm »
If free speech isn't just a government thing, and it's clearly not a business thing, and it's not really a private thing but kinda is, what else is there? Where else are you finding a right of free speech?

Time to recycle this post!

(relevant part below, edited slightly)

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The legal right to freedom of speech (as seen in the first amendment) and the ethical principle of freedom of speech are different things.[...]

The legal right to freedom of speech varies by jurisdiction and changes over time. It speaks of what is in fact the law and not what the law should be. [...] It doesn't answer the question "Should people be punished for their opinions?", only "To what extent does the law allow me to punish people for their opinions"?

The ethical principle of freedom of speech, on the other hand, is the idea that we should allow people to freely express their opinions even when we don't like them, and that differences in opinion should be answered with discussion, not force (a somewhat ambiguous term, admittedly). The idea that we should allow speech we disagree with is a recognition of the fact that often in history, ideas we now recognise as good were thought to be disgusting or heretical or ridiculous, and by punishing those that voiced them rather than allowing them to speak freely we held our civilization back. At least, that's why I think it's important, I'm sure plenty of people find other reasons for it.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2015, 03:25:05 pm »
Interesting. Please go on.

The concept of "Free Speech" as an ideal has existed as far back as Ancient China and Greece, long before the U.S. Constitution was a thing.  It's a basic human right and part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed and adopted by most democratic governments across the world:

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Article 19 - Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

You know what countries didn't sign it at the time?  Totalitarian countries, who obviously had the ulterior motives.  As a rule, I suspect anybody who wants to restrict free speech (except in cases of actual, demonstrable harm) of having ulterior motives.

So what does this have to do with the Internet?  It's fairly simple.  Like it or not, big social networking websites are the successors to the town squares of yesteryear.  Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and the like are communication mechanisms of unprecedented power.  Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson could never have imagined being able to have instant communication with somebody living in Vietnam.  Unfortunately, many of these sites are starting to show signs that they might start censoring.

A common refrain is that those concerned should take their business elsewhere.  But the problem with this suggestion is that there isn't much choice.  How many viable alternatives are there?  Hardly any.  It's not for lack of trying, either.  Remember when Google tried to create their own social network?  Remember how hardly anybody used it?  That's because they had no incentive to use Google+, because everybody and their mother was already on Facebook.  These companies have almost unprecedented power over communication.  This is frankly unsettling, and why I think those who argue big social media platforms should be designated as "privately owned public spaces" have a point.

It's also disconcerting that we expect the free market to preserve freedom of speech.  This is really dangerous.  Do we expect the free market to preserve racial equality?  To preserve worker safety?  To preserve the environment?  To preserve product quality?  To preserve the accuracy of advertising?

Finally, those who argue that corporations should have the power to censor speech they don't like should beware of this being used against them.  When free speech on the largest hubs of the Internet can be censored at the whim of a single CEO, everyone suffers.

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2015, 05:47:16 pm »
Interesting. Please go on.

The concept of "Free Speech" as an ideal has existed as far back as Ancient China and Greece, long before the U.S. Constitution was a thing.  It's a basic human right and part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed and adopted by most democratic governments across the world:

Quote
Article 19 - Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

You know what countries didn't sign it at the time?  Totalitarian countries, who obviously had the ulterior motives.  As a rule, I suspect anybody who wants to restrict free speech (except in cases of actual, demonstrable harm) of having ulterior motives.

So what does this have to do with the Internet?  It's fairly simple.  Like it or not, big social networking websites are the successors to the town squares of yesteryear.  Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and the like are communication mechanisms of unprecedented power.  Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson could never have imagined being able to have instant communication with somebody living in Vietnam.  Unfortunately, many of these sites are starting to show signs that they might start censoring.

A common refrain is that those concerned should take their business elsewhere.  But the problem with this suggestion is that there isn't much choice.  How many viable alternatives are there?  Hardly any.  It's not for lack of trying, either.  Remember when Google tried to create their own social network?  Remember how hardly anybody used it?  That's because they had no incentive to use Google+, because everybody and their mother was already on Facebook.  These companies have almost unprecedented power over communication.  This is frankly unsettling, and why I think those who argue big social media platforms should be designated as "privately owned public spaces" have a point.

It's also disconcerting that we expect the free market to preserve freedom of speech.  This is really dangerous.  Do we expect the free market to preserve racial equality?  To preserve worker safety?  To preserve the environment?  To preserve product quality?  To preserve the accuracy of advertising?

Finally, those who argue that corporations should have the power to censor speech they don't like should beware of this being used against them.  When free speech on the largest hubs of the Internet can be censored at the whim of a single CEO, everyone suffers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't land owners able to kick people out for any or no reason?

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2015, 10:40:04 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't land owners able to kick people out for any or no reason?

Private property vs. public business.

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2015, 11:17:06 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't land owners able to kick people out for any or no reason?

Private property vs. public business.

Even public businesses can set up arbitrary rules as long as they don't step on a protected class. No shoes, no shirt, no service, for example.

As a more obvious censorship example: the school I go to has (physical) bulletin boards that students can put notices on, but they have to go through admin first. Admin can refuse to post it for any number of reasons. How is that different from Facebook, or is it also unacceptable censorship?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2015, 02:16:44 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't land owners able to kick people out for any or no reason?

Private property vs. public business.

Even public businesses can set up arbitrary rules as long as they don't step on a protected class. No shoes, no shirt, no service, for example.

As a more obvious censorship example: the school I go to has (physical) bulletin boards that students can put notices on, but they have to go through admin first. Admin can refuse to post it for any number of reasons. How is that different from Facebook, or is it also unacceptable censorship?

Well, one would expect a school to have higher standards of conduct than a social networking site.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2015, 04:04:11 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't land owners able to kick people out for any or no reason?

Private property vs. public business.

Even public businesses can set up arbitrary rules as long as they don't step on a protected class. No shoes, no shirt, no service, for example.

As a more obvious censorship example: the school I go to has (physical) bulletin boards that students can put notices on, but they have to go through admin first. Admin can refuse to post it for any number of reasons. How is that different from Facebook, or is it also unacceptable censorship?

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I was thinking of personal private property and the fact that you don't have to put up with anyone the moment you decide you don't want to (albeit with certain exceptions concerning public officials and co-owners/dependent family).

What you're think of is a bit different in that you can run afoul of protected classes which to my understanding is something you cannot do in your personal residence. You can tell the cops "this _____ refuses to leave" and the cops will charge that person with trespass regardless of how big an asshole you are.


Well, one would expect a school to have higher standards of conduct than a social networking site.

I don't know if this was a well constructed trap or if you just turned it into one, but why can't a social networking site aspire to higher standards? If it's okay for a school, it has to be okay for a website. A school is subject to far more legal restrictions on what it can and cannot do than any cyberspace hangout. On top of that finding a new school can be time consuming and difficult at best or very expensive to impossible at worst. Finding a new online venue where you can chat about whatever you want is trivially easy and actually creating your own venue to do so is not much more difficult.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2015, 04:20:56 pm »
Well, one would expect a school to have higher standards of conduct than a social networking site.

I don't know if this was a well constructed trap or if you just turned it into one, but why can't a social networking site aspire to higher standards? If it's okay for a school, it has to be okay for a website. A school is subject to far more legal restrictions on what it can and cannot do than any cyberspace hangout. On top of that finding a new school can be time consuming and difficult at best or very expensive to impossible at worst. Finding a new online venue where you can chat about whatever you want is trivially easy and actually creating your own venue to do so is not much more difficult.

Because most of the social networking sites are de facto monopolies.  Very few people have an incentive to switch to a new, untested alternative that doesn't have many users.  As for existing "big name" alternatives, comparing Twitter to Facebook is like comparing Coca-Cola to Budweiser- their products are actually very different.

Also, a social networking site is not a school.  It's not an environment focused on learning necessary skills for life.  It's a place where you go to chat with friends and make new ones.  Except in cases of provable harassment, distributing child pornography, and other criminal activities, I don't think there should be restrictions to what you can say on social networking sites, provided one uses the correct filters for potentially inappropriate content.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2015, 05:14:07 pm »
Well, one would expect a school to have higher standards of conduct than a social networking site.

I don't know if this was a well constructed trap or if you just turned it into one, but why can't a social networking site aspire to higher standards? If it's okay for a school, it has to be okay for a website. A school is subject to far more legal restrictions on what it can and cannot do than any cyberspace hangout. On top of that finding a new school can be time consuming and difficult at best or very expensive to impossible at worst. Finding a new online venue where you can chat about whatever you want is trivially easy and actually creating your own venue to do so is not much more difficult.

Because most of the social networking sites are de facto monopolies.  Very few people have an incentive to switch to a new, untested alternative that doesn't have many users.  As for existing "big name" alternatives, comparing Twitter to Facebook is like comparing Coca-Cola to Budweiser- their products are actually very different.

Also, a social networking site is not a school.  It's not an environment focused on learning necessary skills for life.  It's a place where you go to chat with friends and make new ones.  Except in cases of provable harassment, distributing child pornography, and other criminal activities, I don't think there should be restrictions to what you can say on social networking sites, provided one uses the correct filters for potentially inappropriate content.

As I recall, you are not guaranteed an audience so the fact that you can't find a "big venue" is not really a concern since you can still find or make a venue. Everybody and every business in my town would tell you to get the fuck off their property if you stood on their lawn and started preaching hate. You are more than welcome to stand on the sidewalk and do that though.

You have no right to be telling the private businesses and homeowners dotting the sides of the highways and byways of of the internet what they can and can't do on their own turf. It's the guys who are in charge of those nominally public highways and byways are the ones you need to concern yourself with. Twitter and Facebook aren't those guys.

Basically I think your objective is good (free speech) but your focus is wrong. Who controls the pipeline? Keep them honest.

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2015, 11:02:01 pm »
Because most of the social networking sites are de facto monopolies.  Very few people have an incentive to switch to a new, untested alternative that doesn't have many users.  As for existing "big name" alternatives, comparing Twitter to Facebook is like comparing Coca-Cola to Budweiser- their products are actually very different.

And a publicly funded school is a de jure monopoly. And, between students living on campus, the obvious choice of venue.


Also, a social networking site is not a school.  It's not an environment focused on learning necessary skills for life.  It's a place where you go to chat with friends and make new ones.  Except in cases of provable harassment, distributing child pornography, and other criminal activities, I don't think there should be restrictions to what you can say on social networking sites, provided one uses the correct filters for potentially inappropriate content.

What Canadian Mojo said.