Author Topic: Google facing multiple lawsuits  (Read 4190 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Lana Reverse

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Gender: Female
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 12:37:52 pm »
8 year olds dude.

Holy fuck, I forgot about that. You win the thread.

That's right I forgot these days white men aren't allowed to have an opinion on anything, especially if they disagree with you.  Dismissing someone's opinion off-hand based on their race and/or gender is definitely not in itself hypocritically racist and/or sexist. Nope.

Sure... if that was all I said. My point was to say that maybe they should have found people to make statements that weren't just white men. Three of the four writers are arguing from the same point of view. Perhaps they should have asked more than one woman or at least found someone, regardless of gender or ethnicity, that was an expert on the subjects the memo brought up. And none of the four were. Only one was a social scientist and her field is human sexuality (and, in fairness, what I saw from her in that field shows that she knows what she's talking about in regards to her field).

"Point of view?" In science, a point of view is meaningless by itself. If there is no evidence to support it, then it can be dismissed.

Still, at least you're talking about something more pertinent to the discussion than their political opinions. On the other hand, I haven't seen any actual refutations of either the article I posted or the original memo.

Whoever did that memo doesn't know how to cite sources.

Because he repeatedly presents claims as facts but never provides evidence for any of his right-wing biases being correct, makes claims about leftists and feminists (including implying that feminists are communists?) and puts footnotes on them but instead of citations those are just more of his claims without any proof.

This is an opinion piece that is masquerading as a scientific paper. And doing it poorly.

See, now this is what I'm talking about. Somebody actually discussing the memo.

But I'm afraid you're wrong. He does have sources to back up his claims. Click some of his links, and you'll see.

You may or may not have heard about Google firing engineer James Damore for writing a supposedly sexist memo (which can be read here).  Turns out, he doesn't like being fired for his opinions, and he plans to sue:


Fixed that for you
I guess science is I am sexist now.

Fixed that for you again. So many typos tonight, have you been huffing glue?

And Cloud pointed it out already, but you're presenting *opinions* as "science." Read your own quotes, a lot of "I think" and "as a woman, I don't find." You do this so that you can argue that "science" supports this sexist ass-hat at google. You're about as easy to read as an 8-year old, dude.

They're not just opinions, they point out how what he says is scientifically sound. If you have evidence indicating otherwise, then show it to me.
I also pissed in an old woman's sauce pan when I was a child. Have you?

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7447
  • Gender: Male
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 01:44:46 pm »
What links? What evidence?

I read the memo that you linked and I see no actual sources.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Online Lana Reverse

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Gender: Female
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 03:01:21 pm »
What links? What evidence?

I read the memo that you linked and I see no actual sources.

You sure? Do you see the underlined bits? Because those contain links that back him up.
I also pissed in an old woman's sauce pan when I was a child. Have you?

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7447
  • Gender: Male
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 03:31:42 pm »
Ok, now I found a version that had the links. Some of the links.

It's still making several claims without providing sources to them. Like that "Marxists" are waging a racial warfare. Or that the differences between men and women are universal and in all cultures. And the weird bit about how "Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males" presumably refers to the one horrible and unscientific experiment where a doctor wanted to see if gender is biological or if you can turn a boy into a girl by castrating them and raising them as a girl. ...If that is what it refers to then it is misleading and possibly an attempt to discredit transpeople.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3185
  • Gender: Male
  • SOCIAL JUSTICE!!1!1
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 03:40:51 pm »
The way I see it, citing those links is like trying to defend your position by citing phrenology.

Sometimes these ideas are completely repugnant, and you only need to read "Marxists are waging racial warfare" and decide this is disgusting on your own rather than trying to scientifically refute that.
I am offensively offensive. How Offensive!

Online Cloud3514

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1467
  • Gender: Male
  • 404: Personal text not found.
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 03:52:55 pm »
It doesn't help that the "scientific refutation" is little more than Social Darwinism.
Who needs a signature?

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7374
  • Gender: Male
  • The Mad Dog of Shimano
    • My Twitter
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 03:57:53 pm »
MY BACK ITCHES.

That is all.
Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman
If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 06:58:54 pm »
Ok, now I found a version that had the links. Some of the links.

It's still making several claims without providing sources to them. Like that "Marxists" are waging a racial warfare. Or that the differences between men and women are universal and in all cultures. And the weird bit about how "Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males" presumably refers to the one horrible and unscientific experiment where a doctor wanted to see if gender is biological or if you can turn a boy into a girl by castrating them and raising them as a girl. ...If that is what it refers to then it is misleading and possibly an attempt to discredit transpeople.

Oh fuck are you sure that just wasn't the plot summary of the 'Wasp Factory'? Although there was a twist.

Edit:

Also I think you are all way off the handle to dismiss 'cultural marxists' as a thing because can't you tell after the cold war the USSR didn't really dissolve and become a theocratic despotic petro-state but rather it's all a front and a way to infiltrate the west with subversive cultural marxists. When the signal is given it's all back on baby
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:01:32 pm by davedan »

Offline Murdin

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 07:51:37 pm »
... alright, I'm doing it, but I swear this is the last time.

I can count 33 links in Damore's pamphlet.

Twelve of these links are overtly political rather than scientific or even sociological in nature. Mostly stuff like opinion pieces, blog articles, or even forum posts. This includes the infamous "War against Boys" by professional troll Christina Hoff Summers, and rarely rises much higher in terms of quality.

Two links to articles about the characteristics of "PC supporters" and libertarians, respectively. While biased and reeking of us-versus-them mentality, these are IMO too plainly descriptive to fit into the above category.

Six of them are used to explain or illustrate a particular notion in more detail. These do not qualify as sources for his statements, since they are not supposed to make any statement in the first place.

Two links have nothing to do with the point that they are used to support: "men suffer 93% of work-related deaths" (probably true, but sourcing is hard) and "some of the Right deny science" (cheap bait).

This leaves us with:

Nothing too earth-shattering, I reckon. Meanwhile, Damore's long list of unsourced statements include such gems as:
  • That hilarious left bias vs right bias chart that categorizes me as a right-winger and tries to tie Google's failures as a company to leftism
  • Biological differences between men and women aren't just socially constructed. Well, thank you, captain Obvious! Okay, take two : observed differences between sexes... err, some of them, I guess? Okay, here it is: some differences between sexes are universal across human cultures and often have clear biological causes. Also, evopsych! Now make of that what you will!
  • Women care more about aesthetics than ideas. Or in other words, feels over reals. But, wait! His exact words are that women are more open about feelings and aesthetics. Does that mean they are more aware and accepting of the ways these things influence their their perception of the world, as well as their decision-making process, and therefore less likely to fall in love with their own "skepticism" and "rationality"? Because this would certainly fit my anecdotal evidence.
  • Bell curve graphs that do not actually represent any kind of data! Also, we could reduce groups to stereotypes... but, as a great man once said, that would be wrong.
  • All the bait-and-switch around race. Come on, you're just being disingenuous, there are actual studies about this! After all that grandstanding on free speech and political correctness gone mad, why don't you tell us what you really think?
  • RAWR RAWR SOCIAL MARXISM~~... okay, I'm going to stop there.

tl,dr: it's mostly just another piece of concern-trollish right-wing propaganda, tailored to the "rationalist" aesthetic and peppered with insincere deal-sweeteners on diversity and the inflexibility of gender roles. The usual mix of sourced mostly-uncontroversial truths, unsourced polemical bullshit, and complete batshit insanity that almost seems designed to coax people to pick a side : either total acceptance or total rejection. Of the many opinion pieces and editorials I've read on the subject, only one refused to take the bait and pointed out that Damore's charlatanism was built on the distortion of a solid base of facts.

Oh, and it's also chock-full of logical fallacies, emotional appeals and double standards. Sure, James, people disagree with you because we refuse to "acknowledge that not all differences are socially constructed or due to discrimination". You should be more careful with the flame wars, though ; that much straw has to be a fire hazard. My personal favorite is the part where he denounces empathy as irrational, shortly after trying to leverage it towards white males and conservatives ; there's the kind of libertarian moral clarity we weak-minded fools call hypocrisy. I could go on for pages if I wanted to.

For what it matters, I actually think James Damore was mostly being sincere in his memo. It's just that he absorbed the tropes, mannerisms, sophisms and self-deceptions of... well, his own echo chamber. Hey, I'm actually fine with his tl;dr! The only part I would really object to is the idea that any kind of positive discrimination is automatically "most authoritarian". Like any other model of society, ours comes with a fair number of built-in imbalances in power and authority, and this is why stuff like taxes on the wealthy or "affirmative action" are needed as necessary evils. I guess I should have stopped there, instead of pushing forward to see what he was actually arguing.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:55:51 pm by Murdin »

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 08:03:29 pm »
Fuck Murdin,

 You are like the mythological Arthur, but rather than Britain you defend the internet and rather than fight Saxons you fight bullshit.

Not content with tattooing your name on both of paragon's buttcheeks you have fired up the old needle gun to get to work on Lana. Fuck it check to see whether that's you're signature just above the hip.

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 08:54:56 pm »
So, who is willing to take 3:1 odds on Lana not posting in this thread again, only to make the same argument fourweeks later in some other thread?
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7374
  • Gender: Male
  • The Mad Dog of Shimano
    • My Twitter
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 09:10:43 pm »
Queenie, that's a sucker bet and you know it.
Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman
If I win, I live.  If I lose, I die.  Unless I fight, I cannot win.

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 09:15:48 pm »
Queenie, that's a sucker bet and you know it.

Ravy, stop trying to hamper my internet gambling ring.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Online Lana Reverse

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Gender: Female
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 09:23:52 pm »
Ok, now I found a version that had the links. Some of the links.

It's still making several claims without providing sources to them. Like that "Marxists" are waging a racial warfare. Or that the differences between men and women are universal and in all cultures. And the weird bit about how "Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males" presumably refers to the one horrible and unscientific experiment where a doctor wanted to see if gender is biological or if you can turn a boy into a girl by castrating them and raising them as a girl. ...If that is what it refers to then it is misleading and possibly an attempt to discredit transpeople.

Research indicates that many gender differences are at least partly biological. It has been determined that men and women have different brain structures. Of course, this isn't to say that all women are "X" while all men are "Y", but it does indicate that gender differences aren't entirely socially constructed.

The way I see it, citing those links is like trying to defend your position by citing phrenology.

Sometimes these ideas are completely repugnant, and you only need to read "Marxists are waging racial warfare" and decide this is disgusting on your own rather than trying to scientifically refute that.

Yeah, that does sound pretty iffy. But I fail to see how that refutes his entire memo. James Watson has some questionable ideas, but they don't invalidate his body of work.

It doesn't help that the "scientific refutation" is little more than Social Darwinism.

How so?
I also pissed in an old woman's sauce pan when I was a child. Have you?

Online Cloud3514

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1467
  • Gender: Male
  • 404: Personal text not found.
Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 11:44:40 pm »
How so?

Of course people rejecting the idea that the causes of gender inequality are societal and discrimination in favor of citing evolution doesn't make you think of people citing evolution to excuse racism. Of fucking course.
Who needs a signature?