Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1541601 times)

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #615 on: July 20, 2013, 06:32:53 pm »
It really depends on how the guy said "I like that skirt!" She said he was yelling it, and if he said it with an intentionally suggestive tone, then I can understand being annoyed. I wouldn't respond the same way she did, probably just ignore him.

On the other hand, we've both found that a lot of people who are seeing persecution and discrimination where there is none tend to change their story when retelling it, sometimes (as with the woman who claimed to have spit in the face of a cashier for supposedly trying to touch her inappropriately by handing her change back) to the point of absurdity. Either they're intentionally spicing it up to make it sound more justified or they're thinking back on it afterward and letting their own opinions color the memory of the events.

For all we know, it was a regular guy who was genuinely complimenting her on her skirt and suddenly being shouted at for it.

She could very well be exaggerating or completely lying, but my response is more of a hypothetical one. Incidents like that do occur, and I think such a response would be justified if the guy were being an ass like that.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #616 on: July 20, 2013, 07:35:56 pm »

Okay, I have no experience with imaginary friends myself. That being said, the one person I do know who does is a paranoid schizophrenic and her imaginary friend turned on her and began to hate her, when she was a kid. So, um, don't fuck with imaginary friends, I guess.


This just in, health care is ableist because it says people should be healthy.


The "Special" Snowflake Olympics.


Racism is a lot older than that. Did you know that "barbarian" comes from the Romans, who thought that all other languages, especially Germanic ones like German and the early predecessor of English from their time period, sounded like "bar bar bar bar"? Or that the Romans were just assholes to the Germans in general? So, yeah, fuck you, ancient Rome (ironically, I'm 75% German, 25% Italian). Not to mention tribal warfare in Africa and Asia, or the Japanese and their horrible racism towards the rest of Asia (to be fair, they're the only Asian country that's first world, has a sane-ish government, isn't big on the "cruel and unusual punishment" and tends to be the source of innovation, so they do have a bit of a good reason for their ego).
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #617 on: July 20, 2013, 08:34:40 pm »


I'm learning something new every day.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #618 on: July 20, 2013, 09:41:37 pm »
It really depends on how the guy said "I like that skirt!" She said he was yelling it, and if he said it with an intentionally suggestive tone, then I can understand being annoyed. I wouldn't respond the same way she did, probably just ignore him.

On the other hand, we've both found that a lot of people who are seeing persecution and discrimination where there is none tend to change their story when retelling it, sometimes (as with the woman who claimed to have spit in the face of a cashier for supposedly trying to touch her inappropriately by handing her change back) to the point of absurdity. Either they're intentionally spicing it up to make it sound more justified or they're thinking back on it afterward and letting their own opinions color the memory of the events.

For all we know, it was a regular guy who was genuinely complimenting her on her skirt and suddenly being shouted at for it.

I don't think his intentions were entirely pure by the way he called her a bitch at the end. I think if he did just intend it as a passing compliment, he would've apologized when she told him to back the fuck off and left it at that. A personal anecdote. About this time last year I was walking through the mall and a guy I've never seen told me "hey, I like your boots." I wasn't too confident in my voice so I walked by him without saying anything. After a few steps I hear him say "fine then, be a bitch." So, clearly, he was just using that innocent little compliment because he was hoping I would melt before his eyes and sleep with him right there. How can a woman tell the difference between someone who sincerely means those words and someone using those sweet nothings solely because they degrade women to sex objects? We can't. But a good way to not look like a tool is if a woman wants to be left alone, then apologize, and leave her alone. No man, except Chris Hemsworth, is entitled to our time.

Likewise, street harassment isn't just "hey there sugartits" or "nice ass." It's any form of talking to someone when they don't want it. Women hear both of them on a regular basis, that is "hey, I like your boots" and "nice ass." Clearly, the latter is just gonna get an annoyed sigh from me. The former, depending on the time of day, how I feel, whether or not I feel you're sincere, etc. can result in me being quiet, me asking to be left alone, or me opening up to you. If you get brushed off and push the issue, it's harassment.

And Chit, this is one of those things you don't understand. I say that from being in your shoes. Pre-transition, I thought "so what, a couple of guys want to talk to women, what's the big deal?" It wasn't until I started passing that society just becomes a torrent of guys who can't leave you alone. Like ever. Like walking through town, through the mall, riding the bus, on the metro, waiting in line somewhere, driving, walking to class, filling your car with gas, having coffee with friends, reading a book, sitting in the sun, playing pokemon of all things, I could go on.

True or not, because of this, I love it when women stand up to creepy men. I can't do anything in public without some creepy guy hitting on me (usually about 3 people in two hours*) and I've always kept quiet or polite. I wish I could tell people off like her, real or fake, I've seen countless creepy people who deserve that treatment. And the thing is, the creepy people just love to rationalize their actions from annoying & harassing to "well, it's only a compliment." Because of how common this rationalization is and how much men just don't understand it, in claims of street harassment, it would be more than safe to defer to the person being harassed. Who, sadly, is almost always a woman**.

*I made a game out of it one day while walking through the mall doing Christmas shopping. I called it "count the creepers." That number has been surprisingly consistent over the last 7 months (not including when I go clubbing).

**Not that men don't face street harassment here and there, just never at the same frequency as near always to understand how annoying it is.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #619 on: July 20, 2013, 10:20:13 pm »
Queen, I pretty much agree, and excellent post. The one thing I can't be too sure on is that by calling her a bitch he showed he had bad intentions. I know if I got screamed at by someone I was being nice to, I'd be rather bitter, and if it was a total stranger who wasn't in obvious distress, I might say something out loud. If it was someone I knew, even in passing (and didn't hate), or someone who seemed to already be having present issues, I'd leave it alone, but I know that even on a really good day I'd be pissed if someone got mad at me for trying to be nice. Then again, I'm the kind of person that generally tries to make people's days better. I've been in more than one situation where I'm the lone person helping someone who is bawling their eyes out while nobody pays attention or cares. If you complimented someone and their response was "Shut the fuck up", I don't see you, or pretty much anyone responding well to that, let alone apologizing.
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Humanity does learn from history,
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Offline MadmanJohnson

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #620 on: July 20, 2013, 10:37:43 pm »
It really depends on how the guy said "I like that skirt!" She said he was yelling it, and if he said it with an intentionally suggestive tone, then I can understand being annoyed. I wouldn't respond the same way she did, probably just ignore him.

On the other hand, we've both found that a lot of people who are seeing persecution and discrimination where there is none tend to change their story when retelling it, sometimes (as with the woman who claimed to have spit in the face of a cashier for supposedly trying to touch her inappropriately by handing her change back) to the point of absurdity. Either they're intentionally spicing it up to make it sound more justified or they're thinking back on it afterward and letting their own opinions color the memory of the events.

For all we know, it was a regular guy who was genuinely complimenting her on her skirt and suddenly being shouted at for it.

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QueenofHearts

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #621 on: July 20, 2013, 10:41:01 pm »
It really depends on how the guy said "I like that skirt!" She said he was yelling it, and if he said it with an intentionally suggestive tone, then I can understand being annoyed. I wouldn't respond the same way she did, probably just ignore him.

On the other hand, we've both found that a lot of people who are seeing persecution and discrimination where there is none tend to change their story when retelling it, sometimes (as with the woman who claimed to have spit in the face of a cashier for supposedly trying to touch her inappropriately by handing her change back) to the point of absurdity. Either they're intentionally spicing it up to make it sound more justified or they're thinking back on it afterward and letting their own opinions color the memory of the events.

For all we know, it was a regular guy who was genuinely complimenting her on her skirt and suddenly being shouted at for it.

*Snippity snip snip!
I feel stupid but, who is Chris Hemsworth?

This guy. He is entitled to my time :P

Offline Thejebusfire

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #622 on: July 20, 2013, 10:43:17 pm »










Note that I didn't edit the last one.
I can't tell if they're a really extreme radfem, or a brilliant troll.

But what I love best about this blogger is how they consider everything to be "literally rape" with the only exception being actual rape of course!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 10:45:04 pm by thejebusfire »

Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #623 on: July 20, 2013, 11:31:27 pm »
Racism is a lot older than that. Did you know that "barbarian" comes from the Romans, who thought that all other languages, especially Germanic ones like German and the early predecessor of English from their time period, sounded like "bar bar bar bar"? Or that the Romans were just assholes to the Germans in general? So, yeah, fuck you, ancient Rome (ironically, I'm 75% German, 25% Italian). Not to mention tribal warfare in Africa and Asia, or the Japanese and their horrible racism towards the rest of Asia (to be fair, they're the only Asian country that's first world, has a sane-ish government, isn't big on the "cruel and unusual punishment" and tends to be the source of innovation, so they do have a bit of a good reason for their ego).

Greeks, actually, and they were talking mostly about the Medes and the Persians (when they weren't making fun of the accents of other Greeks).  By the time the Romans took it up, it had evolved to simply meaning "foreign person."  But yeah, racism is a lot older than the "white people/darkies" dichotomy we've seen in the last few centuries.

See, I get annoyed at this whole attempt to redefine racism.  Just like I get annoyed at people who deny that misandry exists.  Now, racism is a much more serious problem when it has social power behind it, sure.  Misogyny hurts women a hell of a lot more than misandry hurts men, for much the same reason.  I agree that these are not equivalent issues.  But when you have to redefine words to win your argument, you've given up on intellectual honesty.  This is especially galling when you already have a sufficiently strong argument.  You just have to put in a little effort.

By trying to redefine words beyond their present meanings, they've made their own arguments much weaker, and damaged their cause.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #624 on: July 21, 2013, 02:06:44 am »
Racism is a lot older than that. Did you know that "barbarian" comes from the Romans, who thought that all other languages, especially Germanic ones like German and the early predecessor of English from their time period, sounded like "bar bar bar bar"? Or that the Romans were just assholes to the Germans in general? So, yeah, fuck you, ancient Rome (ironically, I'm 75% German, 25% Italian). Not to mention tribal warfare in Africa and Asia, or the Japanese and their horrible racism towards the rest of Asia (to be fair, they're the only Asian country that's first world, has a sane-ish government, isn't big on the "cruel and unusual punishment" and tends to be the source of innovation, so they do have a bit of a good reason for their ego).

Greeks, actually, and they were talking mostly about the Medes and the Persians (when they weren't making fun of the accents of other Greeks).  By the time the Romans took it up, it had evolved to simply meaning "foreign person."  But yeah, racism is a lot older than the "white people/darkies" dichotomy we've seen in the last few centuries.

See, I get annoyed at this whole attempt to redefine racism.  Just like I get annoyed at people who deny that misandry exists.  Now, racism is a much more serious problem when it has social power behind it, sure.  Misogyny hurts women a hell of a lot more than misandry hurts men, for much the same reason.  I agree that these are not equivalent issues.  But when you have to redefine words to win your argument, you've given up on intellectual honesty.  This is especially galling when you already have a sufficiently strong argument.  You just have to put in a little effort.

By trying to redefine words beyond their present meanings, they've made their own arguments much weaker, and damaged their cause.

The thing that bothers me the most is that, by pretending that racism was "invented by white people", they are ignoring that prejudice is basically a human universal. Distrusting people who are visibly different from you is the default state for human cultures, it takes a lot of exposure to people of different ethnicities/cultures/etc. for a society to even begin to conceive of the notion that racism is a bad thing.

It is said that the first lesson for the student of scepticism must drive home the point that they are making these mistakes in thinking, before you even consider teaching them to recognise them in others. The danger is the half-sceptic that makes no effort to improve their arguments but has a neat repertoire of easy ways to dismiss those of others. The same principle applies here. If you think of prejudice as something that happens to other people, you will be blind to your own.
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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #625 on: July 21, 2013, 04:52:02 am »
Totally gonna just butt in here, but that whole "stop redefining racism" spiel annoys the crap out of me. You need to understand that different social groups define terms differently (which isn't something new, that's as old as language itself). For many people of color and people who pursue an academic discourse on race, racism means institutionalized racism which means white supremacy/the social history of people of color. It has a history of social context related to colonialism. And it's okay for these people to define it as such because to them it make sense. Ethnic violence and tensions have existed long before colonialism and existed virtually everywhere that wasn't a very isolated inhabited island. And these ethnic tensions do contribute to our understanding of race and racism, but again for many people the understanding of racism is instead based of European colonialism.

Now some people might say "well, the dictionary definition". Well the dictionary only gives a very preliminary examination of racism. There are other definitions and analysis of racism. You do not have to accept those definition (in the same way people of color do not have to accept the dictionary's definition), but I personally think it would be very helpful if more people understood that other people operate under different contexts of race.

I'm not going to defend that particular tumblr post because it's so painfully simplistic, but it just irks me when people don't try to see what people of color sees. For me, our definition racism just means we see our discrimination from a different social and historical context. That isn't to say that racial discrimination doesn't happen white people, nor does it say that discrimination that white people occasionally face isn't negative. Saying X is different from Y doesn't take away from the negativity of X. All it says is X is different from Y. That's all that's being said here, that the context of discrimination that people of color face is different from the discrimination that white people face, and for that reason many people of color view racism as white supremacy/colonialism. And again, you don't have to accept that but it is just so much more helpful in my opinion if you understood that is people of color is coming from.

Quote
(to be fair, they're the only Asian country that's first world, has a sane-ish government, isn't big on the "cruel and unusual punishment" and tends to be the source of innovation, so they do have a bit of a good reason for their ego).

That in no way excuses all the fucked up shit they did to other Asians. They still haven't recognized that they sent hundreds of Thais to their death building a train to India, that they killed Filipinos, that they massacred Chinese, that they raped Koreans. Heck, they weren't all that friendly to the indigenous Ainus or the Zianichi Koreans that have been in Japan as far back as the unification of Korea under the Silla Kingdom. And are you forgetting that South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore are pretty much also sources of economic development and innovations? You're painting the rest of East/Southeast Asia as some type of backward monolith. Asia has it's problems for sure, but it's pretty much as complex as the West.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #626 on: July 21, 2013, 06:19:01 am »
I don't think his intentions were entirely pure by the way he called her a bitch at the end. I think if he did just intend it as a passing compliment, he would've apologized when she told him to back the fuck off and left it at that.
That entirely depends on the person, a lot of men I know get annoyed quite quickly at having some inconsequential thing turned on them like a knife. Not everyone capitulates on a moment's notice when they don't see themselves doing anything wrong.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #627 on: July 21, 2013, 06:30:26 am »
I don't think his intentions were entirely pure by the way he called her a bitch at the end. I think if he did just intend it as a passing compliment, he would've apologized when she told him to back the fuck off and left it at that.
That entirely depends on the person, a lot of men I know get annoyed quite quickly at having some inconsequential thing turned on them like a knife. Not everyone capitulates on a moment's notice when they don't see themselves doing anything wrong.

Then, guys, if you're so afraid of that happening, don't talk to women you don't know. I mean, I don't know how you were raised, but I was always told not to talk to strangers. If you take that chance, be prepared for what you get. Likewise, if a girl doesn't want to talk to you, get over it and don't call her sexist slurs.

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #628 on: July 21, 2013, 07:30:49 am »
And if you're going to act as if talking to others is a crime, don't be suprised if they call you any and all relevant slurs.

Really, if you're not going to talk to strangers EVERYONE is going to be a stranger.

Offline LeTipex

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #629 on: July 21, 2013, 09:42:59 am »
It shouldn't be hard to recognize when you're annoying someone because they don't want to talk to you, stranger or no stranger.
 
Likewise, it shouldn't be hard to recognize when somebody is complimenting you because you're cute, or when someone is harrassing you on the street.

But in writing, after the fact? For once, it's a real "he said she said" scenario.

For the record, I love talking to strangers on the street, and occasionally stop girls to tell them they're cute. (Of course, I usually tend to say something like "Sorry to disturb you, I'm not trying to hit on you, but I find you really cute! Have a great day!", so it's not a "Hey, you! Nice tits!" scenario.) I would get pretty pissed if someone just started laying on me for complimenting them, but I probably wouldn't insult them.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 09:46:06 am by LeTipex »